My thoughts on my participation in CAC threads
Gazes
Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
Over the last several years I have posted a variety of threads about CAC and certainly chimed in about my opinion on CAC's services. During this time I certainly had a bunch of negative comments thrown my way for being a CAC supporter (and thats fine), even some PMs that were not so nice, accused of being an investor in CAC but also many supportive comments. I recently began thinking why use my time on this endless discussions on CAC? I asked myself the following:
1) Will these discussions change my mind and my collection?---No, I have over the years determined CAC is especially valuable for the type of coins I collect (i.e gold coins, usually greater than $5000 in cost, etc). I am very happy with the coins I have. Yes it is sometimes frustrating to see a coin I like that is not CAC approved and pass (when I can reasonably be certain that CAC reviewed it and passed on it too) but I also know I have saved myself from signficant mistakes because of my policy (yes, I have specific examples).
2) Will these discussions and my partipcation somehow impact CAC acceptance or prices? ---Absolutely not. The discussions on this board about CAC I am confident will not move the needle on how people price CAC coins, whether CAC becomes stronger or weaker in the future, etc. It is usually the same people weighing in and I am not so self important to think my comments or quite frankly any of the comments on here about CAC move the needle.
3) Do I enjoy the threads? Not really anymore. At one point they seemed interesting but that point has long past. They usually go off track and the same comments are posted. Time is valuable and repeating the same arguments to largely the same people seem to be a waste of time. Many of the CAC comments are just random attempts to bait people. For instance someone posts a MS-69 coin and then a few posters chime in about how the coin must be flawed if no CAC sticker (this from CAC detractors), etc.
4) Why do I spend time participating in CAC questions?---Good question. I know CAC is for me so that won't change. I often get negative comments and thats fine but I certainly can live without it 
I know it won't impact the market. So there really isnt any self serving reason for me to discuss CAC. The reason I have in the past started threads, gave my opinion, etc is because I truly believe that there may be a few collectors out there who would be helped by what I have to say. When I started buying gold coins I did not believe I needed CAC since I worked with some knowledgable dealers. Over time when I found a coin had been puttied, or found I liked the look of CAC gold, as I saw premiums grow on CAC gold coins, I figured out on my own this was for me. At this point, there are enough threads on here about CAC that I believe other collectors can make up their minds. I don't think going on endlessly at this point makes much of a difference. And even if it does, those collectors may ultimately learn on their own whether CAC is for them just like I did. And yes, for some collectors CAC is not needed. JA has even said that certain series, certain price levels, etc CAC really isnt important. The information is out there for anyone to determine if CAC is for them.
Given all this, the rationale decision for me is not to waste more time on these discussions. I can't promise I may not chime in here or there if I have something new to add, but for the most part these discussions really have no positive value for me as explained above going forward. If down the road they do have a positive value for me then I will certainly post again on the topic. I do take some satisfaction that if someone listened to the many CAC advocates on this forum advice 5 years ago who extolled the virtue of CAC (especially on gold coins which has always been my focused) they have done very very well as coin prices have risen and the premium for CAC gold coins have expanded tremendously. Instead many of those collectors who mocked CAC say they no longer enjoy collecting. I honestly feel bad for them--its a great hobby. I have a clear vision of the coins I want to collect going forward and have no need to to convince anyone else what they should do.
Comments
Oh my; another CAC thread. I await with great interest it's development.
I get the feeling CAC is an obsession for some people here.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
I think on important statement in your post (all of it relevant since it expresses your long experience) is
“And yes, for some collectors CAC is not needed. JA has even said that certain series, certain price levels, etc CAC really isnt important.”
Since CAC doesn’t accept modern coins that would seem to be one category JA doesn’t require the help of his service. He also mentions certain price levels even though that came up in one of the tread and some believed CAC was relevant even for lower priced coins.
I understand your point about rehashing the issues, especially for those that have been on the forum for a while, circumstances change, opinions change, some folks haven’t really made up their mind one way or the other, and sometimes putting your thoughts on “paper” forces you to really think about, re-evaluate why you view things the way you view them.
I am 100% not interested in CAC. I would be happier if they never existed. IMHO a totally unnecessary company. I don't think that I have any slabs with a CAC sticker. (I bought all of them before CAC existed)
The thread would be more accurately titled: Posting about CAC -- A Change of Heart.
As it is, just more CAC click-bait.
Why throw more petrol on the fire?
Smitten with DBLCs.
In general CAC is a tool, use it or don't nobody cares. It is like a certified used car, smart people can spot good cars without it but if you want to pay a premium for a dealers help with a little extra warranty that is often money well spent because most people are not nearly as smart as they think they are let alone smarter than the dealer.
But considering that most people don't hold on to coins that long before their interests dwindle, you can most likely recoup the premium in some capacity upon resale because everyone will know it is a quality example of the widget which will make people in general more comfortable paying up.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Oh, I wanna play. Who does not like CAC? Let's talk.
Put your picture on the dartboard and I'll hit ya dead center in the nose!
IMHO, the detractors must have tons of rejected/sub-par/low tier (pick one) examples, and can't admit it or come face to face with that facts on the ground, so they prefer to knock CAC.
Or, they likely jealous of JA's bean popularity and value, care little about future value to heirs or end sale plans, or/and have the need to disparage others for there own personal needs.
Whatever it may be, you've spent lots of time trying to defend it, when those that need to know or want to know , already know and get it, so let it go.
If you're so disinterested, why take the time to post five sentences to a thread about CAC? No need to reply - I'd hate to see you waste even more time on a topic that you're "100% not interested in".
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
One thing I've noticed for sure is the rising disparity of prices on pre 1933 CAC gold. I just lost an auction for a classic head 5$ that is going to set the record price for a coin in that year and grade with a bean. The same non cac coin in pcgs goes for about 75% of what this one is going to hammer at. I would like to have a few more cac coins but they're definitely harder to find at a reasonable price.
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As a coin dealer in a specialty market, with over 600 non CAC slabbed coins, I am soo glad the CAC has nothing to do with what I do.
What a pain in the azz dealing with the sticker issue not to mention an ugly sicker ruining a slab.
JA, please stay out of my field
I don't see JA constantly spamming the board. You have no worries.
My 1866 Philly Mint Set
Hmmm...you've announced your decision to not engage in CAC debate by starting a CAC thread (debate).
I find all absolutes tiresome.
I like PCGS. But I'm chagrined at the number of $25-$50 coins that people send in to get graded at a cost of $25-$50 per coin.
I hired an engineer to do a home inspection before I bought my house. I've never hired a consultant to help me choose a watermelon.
Anyone who doesn't value a second opinion on a coin should only buy raw coins. If you value a second opinion but not a third opinion, ignore CAC or Eagle Eye or Wings or whatever. If you value it, look for it. I'm not sure why anyone feels the need to try and convince "the other side". There is no other side, it's a personal choice.
Anyone who sends in their mid-grade CIRC collection of Lincolns for PCGS to slab is wasting their money. On the other hand, it's THEIR money. If you think I'm wasting my money paying extra for CAC, it's MY money. Feel free to chortle quietly at my folly.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
Maybe I can put my beef in a different perspective. Before I started selling online I didn't give a crap if a coin was graded or not. It was just another cost to sell a coin for what it's worth. Even selling certified coins online you get returns, but they are easier to sell. Now many are expecting a coin to be certified and CAC'd, even on $100-$500 coins. So....as a buyer how many coins do you think I can buy say with a GS bid of $200 and then spend somewhere in the neighborhood of $50 and 3 or 4 months of wait time to be able to offer them for sale. How many here will sell me that coin for $150 or less? Not many I suspect! CAC is double taxation. In my precious Barber coins I just see too many CAC'd coins that sometimes I wonder how they were graded problem free, much less those that aren't really that nice. And yes I have been asked by a few on ebay why my coins aren't CAC'd. For me enough is enough. Stick a fork in that hand reaching for another piece of my pie!
Luckily there are not near as many collectors in the real world that have the same expectations as the majority here. And no, they are not inexperienced customers who don't know how to grade for themselves. We do have some entertaining conversations regarding grading services and the bean!
I agree completely. It's beyond me why so many spend so much time trying to convince others that there's a "right" way to enjoy the hobby; or that some approaches are foolish, or unnecessary, or unbefitting a "real" collector. Have fun. Enjoy. Repeat.
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I think if you like stickered coins go for it. It’s your money / investment not mine. Show us your CAC newps. The sticker can enhance selling.
Since most my US coins mostly bullion mods really not an issue for me. My inventory mainly world, mods, paper money. On a tear get more of my PM graded. No expensive classic US over $300 at this time (sold out) would not even think about spending money on sticker with stuff have now. No problem having the stickered coins but in past have to get more money on them (higher inventory cost).
Over time coins may go bad in holder stickered or not. Whats your contingency for this? The atmosphere in reacting w coinage metals does not care about sticker.
CAC threads are a great way to pass the time, if you have time to pass and don't get too serious about it.
It's hard to convince people of things, so if you let go of wanting that, you should be fine.
Also, I'm glad you're talking about coins. When you first said you were changing your heart, I thought this might be about the Cardiac Advisory Council!
1) Relying on a dealer for advice on a coin he is selling could be catastrophic.
2) Not being able to spot putty is a problem.
3) Having your judgement clouded by money/greed while evaluating a coin is an issue.
It sounds like you do need CAC.
My Saint Set
All my coins are CAC. Most were bought pre CAC and then stickered. Others acquired with stickers. It's just the way it has turned out as I would consider a non cac coin if it checked all the other boxes including price. As for what others think? I could care less then zero. My money, my call. Their money, their call.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Buy the coin because you like it, not the holder....and the stickers are just a further distraction for me.
I don't care about any of this stuff.
Yea, I know. Why waste your time posting here then?
I guess because I'm tired of all this................move on.
Pete
Sent them a box of coins just yesterday.
@Gazes
I appreciate the knowledge you share and your thought provoking threads. The hobby seems to be going in the direction of CAC. There has been plenty of good to come from it, take it or leave it.
Jbknifeandcoin.com
IG: jb_rarities
I agree. A lot of material is saleable raw. It will sell for less but you'll also have less into it. After all, it's not the top line that matters. It's the bottom line.
That's why, as I say, I hate absolutes. The advice given here to slab and CAC everything to maximize sales for your heirs often ignores the cost of that. If you need to spend $60 to slab and CAC $100 coin, you might better just melt it.
But, it's your money. Throw it around however you want.
The thing that surprises me most around here is the amount of collection churn that goes on.
Although I don’t collect US coins anymore I did own many CAC coins in my collection before I sold it all in the fall of 2016.
Not just because of the service it provided but also JA is a really really great guy who will give you his time no matter your coin experience.
Had dinner once with him pre CAC launch
Where he spoke of his vision for CAC which he has achieved.
.
Not to mentioned he saved my azz when he detected putty on 6 figure gold coin I owned !
Nobody better when it comes to grading gold coins! Nobody ….
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Sorry to offend you. I thought these threads were for everyone's opinion, not just yours.
am I misremembering a pretty but non-CAC proof dollar that someone not the OP bought at auction, got upgraded and then CAC'd at the higher grade, and sold for like twice as much to the OP?
how can this be reconciled with this never ending stream of CAC threads? IMHO, it's more nuanced than CAC bad or CAC good. CAC is a great hedge for collectors who don't have decades of experience grading, which you'd need to discern the difference between a 66 and 67 proof anything, so even if they pay top retail, they're not going to lose their shirts and they'll have more fun collecting because they'll have good looking coins for the grade
The title of the thread though is misleading. Rather than "change of heart" it turns out to be about a "hardened heart" holding to an unchanged view - which is certainly understandable and OK in and of itself.
Please tell us what you really think!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I like coins..... slabs and stickers are incidental to my acquisition. First and foremost - for me - is the coin. Since I do not sell coins, I do not concern myself with such things. Yes, the market does care and the slabs from PCGS with a green bean do command premiums over others. If I like the coin and the price is reasonable, I buy it... sometimes even if the price is not so reasonable.
And so I continue... collecting and having a great time with all my hobbies and avocations. Cheers, RickO
I wasn't offended. I'm just amused when posters spend time talking about things they're supposedly not interested in. And of course, these threads are for everyone's opinion.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
After analyzing his post… I think he might be trying to tell us that he isn’t a fan of cac?
The title of the OP was false advertising.
What kind of CAC coins OP make up your portfolio in terms of USGTC, Type, Walkers, Commems, and Dollars? Is pct of investment evenly distributed or mainly one type / class?
This topic always will always generate controversy.
As much as I hope that my coins go up in value, it is not an investment. I am a collector.
False advertising requires someone to be trying to sell you something. You completely missed the entire point of the OP. However, your post reinforces why I have decided discussing CAC has no benefit for me and my time is better focused elsewhere. Thanks for the reminder and have a good day.
It was a false title. You are still a CAC fanatic, and always will be because you have lot of money tied up in it. I thought that you might add something, like a line of caution about how you still need to know how to grade even with CAC. It is possible to get buried in a CAC approved coin because of grading issues.
But that was the wrong interpretation.
Ohh, someone took the bait. . . . I promise, this will not hurt.
You sound JUST LIKE all the dealers of yore, telling us they did not need PCGS and NGC when they started grading coins 35 years ago. I find it interesting that CAC was able to fill such a huge niche, is amazingly successful, and you can't even acknowledge the niche, as well as the literally hundreds of millions of dollars in value CAC has put in COLLECTORS POCKETS. Have you seen a Grey Sheet?
PS. CAC is a service for collectors, YOU do not have to use it, and I appreciate it because we do not need more price competition for these HIGHLY DESIRABLE coins.
PSS. Looking forward to 53BKid Stickers, that ought to take off.
It is possible to get buried in a CAC approved coin because of grading issues.?????????????????????????????????
Only if YOU OVER PAID for the coin. JA has a daily market in CAC coins and He buys them. Problem with the Grade and the sticker, doubtful, but you could mail it to him.
Yes JA buys CAC coins but isn’t that at the CAC bid in the sheet or some other number. If some other number what basis vs CDN bid have you been getting?
How well have some of you done shopping CAC coins around the bourse at a show relative to CDN bid for them? Nobody on bourse is going to buy a coin CAC or otherwise they can’t make money on, doesn’t meet their criteria, no market for, or has gone bad in the holder (exposure to atmosphere).
Me I don’t like toned coins that look run over by a truck, dark spotted material, gone bad in holder, so sticker on them means nothing. Ditto if I think it’s a C coin for whatever reason. A coin has to meet MY criteria. Knowing how to grade, price, and look at coins is no joke in RCI. I would wager if you paid say considerably over CPG your likely buried in them. We are in volatile uncertain times. Certainly there may be exceptions like some esoteric toner you get lucky on selling at auction.
Just show me the coin. Enough glue sniffing.
I could not agree more! And most of them have posted on this thread!
I'm curious about the part where you don't own any slabs with a CAC sticker.
After CAC existed, which of the following happened?
My thoughts EXACTLY.
jom
Also (and not to pile on) if a collector is "100% not interested" then caring if they exist would be non-existent. Wanting CAC to "never exist" means you do care and you are interested.
peacockcoins