@BillJones said:
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
Buying the coins you like and not worrying about what other people think of them is out of the question, then?
@BillJones said:
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
So apparently it's just plain wrong for many buyers to reject coins without CAC's since they don't get an assurance from one of the top people in our hobby that the coin is not a "C" coin, and/or the surfaces have not been messed with. Silly me.
The sentiments expressed by @Billjones are very similar to those I’ve heard from some owners of NGC coins, who feel they need to get their coins crossed to PCGS holders. The same also goes for owners of ungraded coins, who feel they need to get them graded. In each case, they “risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers.” It’s a fact of numismatic life, but I don’t blame the grading companies or CAC for it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BillJones said:
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
Buying the coins you like and not worrying about what other people think of them is out of the question, then?
When you are spending 5 and 6 figure amounts, it is.
The most expensive coin I have purchased since I abandoned the high priced U.S. coin market was a 1937 Proof half dollar in an NGC PR-65 , no CAC, holder. I bought it bought from very well respected dealer at Summer FUN. Another dealer in the room had two others in PCGS PR-65 CAC holders. They was pretty much the same coin. He wanted almost 50% more. He told me they were too expensive before he got them out of the case.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
When you are spending 5 and 6 figure amounts, it is.
Fair enough. So why not switch to collecting something that doesn't require the approval of others?
I have been collecting British, with a big interest in the hammered coins and ancient Imperial Roman coins. A lot of those collectors don't like slabs at all, let alone slabs with stickers.
There is not much of anything that you can collect where the state of preservation does not matter. I don't need the approval of 100% of people. The trouble is when you have an outfit like CAC which has a huge amount of veto power over everything, your either knuckle under or leave.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
Like it or not, "The Market" is the boss. With the growing acceptance of CAC, including Heritage and Stack's now showing CAC "Retail" pricing in their lots (including lots eligible for a CAC but without one), with the GreySheet now having a standalone quarterly CAC pricing guide, with PCGS creating CAC Composite Registry Sets, with the NGC Registry adding bonus points for coins with CAC's and NO bonus points for coins without CAC's, it's absolutely no wonder that many collectors, right or wrong, will question coins above a certain price point without CAC's as potentially being a "C" coin, and/or one whose surfaces were messed with!
While I recognize as a FACT that not every coin above a certain price has been submitted to CAC, as a buyer, I do assume (for my own protection) that those coins have indeed been submitted and failed. Like it or not, that means there are fewer buyers for coins without CAC's than there would be had there been no such thing as CAC. That's "The Market", and as noted above, the Market is the boss!
Regardless, I fully agree 100% that each collector should buy what they like, for whatever their reasoning.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@BillJones said:
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
So apparently it's just plain wrong for many buyers to reject coins without CAC's since they don't get an assurance from one of the top people in our hobby that the coin is not a "C" coin, and/or the surfaces have not been messed with. Silly me.
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
Like it or not, "The Market" is the boss. With the growing acceptance of CAC, including Heritage and Stack's now showing CAC "Retail" pricing in their lots (including lots eligible for a CAC but without one), with the GreySheet now having a standalone quarterly CAC pricing guide, with PCGS creating CAC Composite Registry Sets, with the NGC Registry adding bonus points for coins with CAC's and NO bonus points for coins without CAC's, it's absolutely no wonder that many collectors, right or wrong, will question coins above a certain price point without CAC's as potentially being a "C" coin, and/or one whose surfaces were messed with!
While I recognize as a FACT that not every coin above a certain price has been submitted to CAC, as a buyer, I do assume (for my own protection) that those coins have indeed been submitted and failed. Like it or not, that means there are fewer buyers for coins without CAC's than there would be had there been no such thing as CAC. That's "The Market", and as noted above, the Market is the boss!
Regardless, I fully agree 100% that each collector should buy what they like, for whatever their reasoning.
@BillJones said:
When you are spending 5 and 6 figure amounts, it is.
Fair enough. So why not switch to collecting something that doesn't require the approval of others?
I have been collecting British, with a big interest in the hammered coins and ancient Imperial Roman coins. A lot of those collectors don't like slabs at all, let alone slabs with stickers.
There is not much of anything that you can collect where the state of preservation does not matter. I don't need the approval of 100% of people. The trouble is when you have an outfit like CAC which has a huge amount of veto power over everything, your either knuckle under or leave.
Rather than knuckling under or leaving, why not just buy the non-CAC coins that you like? Surely there are some out there.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BillJones said:
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
Like it or not, "The Market" is the boss. With the growing acceptance of CAC, including Heritage and Stack's now showing CAC "Retail" pricing in their lots (including lots eligible for a CAC but without one), with the GreySheet now having a standalone quarterly CAC pricing guide, with PCGS creating CAC Composite Registry Sets, with the NGC Registry adding bonus points for coins with CAC's and NO bonus points for coins without CAC's, it's absolutely no wonder that many collectors, right or wrong, will question coins above a certain price point without CAC's as potentially being a "C" coin, and/or one whose surfaces were messed with!
While I recognize as a FACT that not every coin above a certain price has been submitted to CAC, as a buyer, I do assume (for my own protection) that those coins have indeed been submitted and failed. Like it or not, that means there are fewer buyers for coins without CAC's than there would be had there been no such thing as CAC. That's "The Market", and as noted above, the Market is the boss!
Regardless, I fully agree 100% that each collector should buy what they like, for whatever their reasoning.
Steve
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
The most expensive coin I ever bought was in an NGC ("wrong holder") with no CAC sticker. It is in an MS-62 holder. Having researched it, I knew that it had been in an NGC MS-61 holder at one time. I decided what i was willing to bid, cleared it with the auction house so far as my personal bid limit was and went after it. I love the coin, but somebody will probably have to spend $3,000 + in grading fees to get it in the "right holder." So it goes.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
Rather than knuckling under or leaving, why not just buy the non-CAC coins that you like? Surely there are some out there.
I have purchased the coins I liked with and without the CAC sticker. That was not a problem. What was the problem was when I started reading all the posts here from people who won't buy anything but stickered coins. If there are enough of those guys, you will have to run to the grading services to get your non-stickered coins downgraded so that they might sticker.
The funny part is, CAC has made mistakes. I have saved many pictures of them. A big CAC mistake convinced me it was time to pull in my horns. The dealer who had that coin, usually flips coins in a couple days, but he had that one for four months. But that does not matter. Whatever CAC is the law. You can't buck it.
I don't need that foolishness. I love my U.S. coin collection. I have no desire to sell it, but I can see that the only pieces I can add will have to be low priced if they don't have a sticker. That is very confining, and it makes the search way more harder and expensive. I'm not going there.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
You're looking at this the wrong way, I believe. It's "the market's approval", not one man's. Nobody is forced to go along, who doesn't agree to.
No, I'm not taking it the wrong way. One man is telling the market what's good, and the market is following him.
I can't tell you how many business people would love to have situation behind their enterprise.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
So apparently it's just plain wrong for many buyers to reject coins without CAC's since they don't get an assurance from one of the top people in our hobby that the coin is not a "C" coin, and/or the surfaces have not been messed with. Silly me.
The sentiments expressed by @Billjones are very similar to those I’ve heard from some owners of NGC coins, who feel they need to get their coins crossed to PCGS holders. The same also goes for owners of ungraded coins, who feel they need to get them graded. In each case, they “risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers.” It’s a fact of numismatic life, but I don’t blame the grading companies or CAC for it.
I think the highlighted portion of Mark's statement is critical. The blame rest with collectors to lazy too do the work of learning to grade.
In my opinion the real value of tpg companies is authentication and identifying problem coins. Grading really isn't the rocket science some might make it out to be. I think the more difficult challenge is identifying counterfeits and doctored coins. In the vast majority of GTG threads almost everyone is within a point of the actual grade and all of this is done based on a photograph. Sometimes that one point is really the product of half a point difference.
The other issue, the onus of which also falls on collectors, is the crazy premiums paid for a one point difference in grade. I've heard over and over again what a major difference there is between an MS-67 and 68 or 68 and 69 or 69 and 70. Total and complete nonsense. What drives the need for critical tpg and CAC confirmation are the insane premiums paid for one point differences in grade. If someone is paying a 10x premium for that one point they want the world to agree that that one point difference exist and is important. In my opinion those premiums reflect missing the forest for the trees. No one is going to convince me that a 1911 MS-66 St. Gaudens is worth $200K while an MS-65 is worth $40K and this doesn't begin to reflect some of the really insane premiums paid for extremely small difference in coins, especially those in the higher grades.
I know there is no getting the genie back in the bottle but the ones to blame for the mess that expanded the importance of tpg beyond authentication and identifying doctored coins are collectors.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
@pmh1nic said:
I think the highlighted portion of Mark's statement is critical. The blame rests with collectors too lazy to do the work of learning to grade.
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
The problem was when I started reading all the posts here from people who won't buy anything but stickered coins. If
there are enough of those guys, you will have to run to the grading services to get your non-stickered coins
downgraded so that they _might sticker._
I'm speculating, but my sense is there's not a lot of CAC collectors taking "C" coins out of slabs to have them downgraded just so they can get a CAC sticker at the next lower grade. Maybe for coins valued at less than $500 or so that might possibly be going on, but as noted, I don't believe that's going on to a large degree with coins valued above that. Just my two cents!
I believe your main point is that a growing collector segment will not buy coins without CAC's. To each his own!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@FrankH said:
All it takes on a rare gold coin (especially early gold) is one shred of reluctance to accept it if it has not been stickered.
(personal experience)
safe/sorry/better
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
Agreed that a number of coin buyers prefer CAC and some exclusively CAC.
It is not plain wrong. It is the market. CAC was a clever idea and has succeeded. Nothing is 'just plain wrong' with an open market.
Like you, I had an inventory of PCGS coins in my collection when CAC started. Some of these coins I really like did not CAC (cert #s 34179219, 34179224, 34179225, 34179210 - and all have Truviews). I am not going to get rid of them because of that. Yes, I have lost several thousand dollars in a future hypothetical sale of the half dollars. Thems the breaks, man. The market is one of the cruelest taskmasters one will ever meet. I do not attribute the future hypothetical loss to the development of CAC, the idea itself, or the individuals involved. I do not think that I was wronged.
Nor is it going to stop me from purchasing U. S. coins. I do prefer searches of CAC inventory to the full search most of the time; I do the full inventory searches from time to time. If an appealing non-stickered example of an issue that is rarely seen and nearly impossible with CAC (cert # 38172839) is available and I really like it, then it joins my collection.
To close, I agree with your one point. Recognizing market realities and kowtowing seem to be analogous for us.
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@BillJones said:
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
So apparently it's just plain wrong for many buyers to reject coins without CAC's since they don't get an assurance from one of the top people in our hobby that the coin is not a "C" coin, and/or the surfaces have not been messed with. Silly me.
The sentiments expressed by @Billjones are very similar to those I’ve heard from some owners of NGC coins, who feel they need to get their coins crossed to PCGS holders. The same also goes for owners of ungraded coins, who feel they need to get them graded. In each case, they “risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers.” It’s a fact of numismatic life, but I don’t blame the grading companies or CAC for it.
Some people like white. Some people like toners. Who do I hold responsible for that?
Rather than knuckling under or leaving, why not just buy the non-CAC coins that you like? Surely there are some out there.
I have purchased the coins I liked with and without the CAC sticker. That was not a problem. What was the problem was when I started reading all the posts here from people who won't buy anything but stickered coins. If there are enough of those guys, you will have to run to the grading services to get your non-stickered coins downgraded so that they might sticker.
Who knew that since I almost only buy CAC approved gold coins, I had this enormous impact on the coin market with a few other posters on these boards! Wow! Cant argue with that logic! Maybe to save collecting I should buy a few non CAC coins and save the hobby!
@BillJones said:
This sums up why I can't purchase expensive U.S. coins any more. You either kowtow to CAC, or you risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers. That is just plain wrong.
Buying the coins you like and not worrying about what other people think of them is out of the question, then?
When you are spending 5 and 6 figure amounts, it is.
The most expensive coin I have purchased since I abandoned the high priced U.S. coin market was a 1937 Proof half dollar in an NGC PR-65 , no CAC, holder. I bought it bought from very well respected dealer at Summer FUN. Another dealer in the room had two others in PCGS PR-65 CAC holders. They was pretty much the same coin. He wanted almost 50% more. He told me they were too expensive before he got them out of the case.
I don't fully understand this. You won't get CAC money when you sell, but you also won't have to spend CAC money to buy. Other than price envy, why can't you buy CACless 5 figure coins?
@pmh1nic said:
In my opinion the real value of tpg companies is authentication and identifying problem coins. Grading really isn't the rocket science some might make it out to be. I think the more difficult challenge is identifying counterfeits and doctored coins. In the vast majority of GTG threads almost everyone is within a point of the actual grade and all of this is done based on a photograph. Sometimes that one point is really the product of half a point difference....
You must not look at the same GTG threads I do.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I don't fully understand this. You won't get CAC money when you sell, but you also won't have to spend CAC money to buy. Other than price envy, why can't you buy CACless 5 figure coins?
Because you don't know what the bottom is on this thing. If you spend $50,000 on a coin that has not been approved by the only grader who counts in the coin business, you might well own something that is the same as a raw coin after a while.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
CAC only about 1.8 Pct of certified coins accepted by ebay (Anacs, ICG, PCGS, NGC). So if somebody only buys CAC coins……they gonna pay more:
Friend who sets up says “Sure I might buy a few CAC coins make case look good lol but I have to pay more for CAC coins so keep simple (no Rocket Sci) just markup b coins cost plus 50pct, A coins 100 pct markup, sometimes more. Until sell don’t worry about buying any more.”
My CAC matl sold out haven’t found any at my price yet. Mainly interest in currency & non US Coin areas at present. Might buy US coins if price right but tired of same ole stuff.
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@BillJones said:
Because you don't know what the bottom is on this thing. If you spend $50,000 on a coin that has not been approved by the only grader who counts in the coin business, you might well own something that is the same as a raw coin after a while.
Then buy the coins raw.
BTW... "approved by the only grader who counts in the coin business"? Strawman alert!
I once when to Technical school in the evenings to learn how to build automatic transmissions so I could sue AAMCO! Guess what! I beat them in court! Principles are very important to me and I do what I have to do when the time calls.
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
@pmh1nic said:
I think the highlighted portion of Mark's statement is critical. The blame rests with collectors too lazy to do the work of learning to grade.
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
@Cougar1978 said:
CAC only about 1.8 Pct certified coins on eBay. So if somebody only buys CAC coins……
What's the point? GC, Heritage, Stacks, DLRC, Legends, and hundreds of reputable dealers also sell coins, and many have CAC's! Believe it or not. the numismatic world does not revolve around eBay!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
Edited to correct my statement...
Put you on the same footing no. Get you up to speed in a way that gets you to a point of agreement 95% of the time, yes.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Let's play "guess the grade." What do you think this coin's grade is?
And let's compare it to this one.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
Do you really think in his lifetime he's only seen 100 Saints, 100 Liberty $20, 100 Morgans, 100 Barber halves, etc.?
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
Do you really think in his lifetime he's only seen 100 Saints, 100 Liberty $20, 100 Morgans, 100 Barber halves, etc.?
Lol---you said that you only need to see 100 coins of a series to grade accurately
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
I vote "no".
There are so many nuances to grading. You'll be better after the first 100, but you'll still be learning after 1000 coins... even if all 1000 coins are the same type. I look at thousands of coins every year and I'm still learning.
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
Or it means the exact opposite: people overestimate their abilities.
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
I vote "no".
There are so many nuances to grading. You'll be better after the first 100, but you'll still be learning after 1000 coins... even if all 1000 coins are the same type. I look at thousands of coins every year and I'm still learning.
Are you still learning major issues or minor nuances?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
Edited to correct my statement...
Put you on the same footing no. Get you up to speed in a way that gets you to a point of agreement 95% of the time, yes.
You're arguing with yourself. You're the one who said you don't learn much after the first 100.
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
Or it means the exact opposite: people overestimate their abilities.
Maybe, and some people overestimate the importance of their abilities.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
I don’t know of any coins that are bought for “5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.” No need to exaggerate to try to make your point.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
Edited to correct my statement...
Put you on the same footing no. Get you up to speed in a way that gets you to a point of agreement 95% of the time, yes.
You're arguing with yourself. You're the one who said you don't learn much after the first 100.
If you interpret anything I said as you don't learn much after the first 100 then I wasn't clear. I thinkmyou learn the vast majority of what you need to learn after viewing the first 100 of a type with appropriate feedback.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
I don’t know of any coins that are bought for “5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.” No need to exaggerate to try to make your point.
Are you sure he hasn't just revealed the fallacy that underlies his opinion?
@BillJones said:
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
Edited to correct my statement...
Put you on the same footing no. Get you up to speed in a way that gets you to a point of agreement 95% of the time, yes.
You're arguing with yourself. You're the one who said you don't learn much after the first 100.
If you interpret anything I said as you don't learn much after the first 100 then I wasn't clear. I thinkmyou learn the vast majority of what you need to learn after viewing the first 100 of a type with appropriate feedback.
And @Gazes suggested that was ridiculous and you countered by asking him if he thought JA only looked at 100 coins.
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
I don’t know of any coins that are bought for “5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.” No need to exaggerate to try to make your point.
You don't know of any coins where a one point difference in grade results in a 5x premium?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
No takers on the grade quiz with the Monroe commemorative half dollars?
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
I don’t know of any coins that are bought for “5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.” No need to exaggerate to try to make your point.
Are you sure he hasn't just revealed the fallacy that underlies his opinion?
1876 Liberty $20 MS-64 $45K, MS-65 $225K
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
I don’t know of any coins that are bought for “5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.” No need to exaggerate to try to make your point.
Are you sure he hasn't just revealed the fallacy that underlies his opinion?
1907 Saint, MS-66 $7,750, MS-67 $55K
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Comments
Buying the coins you like and not worrying about what other people think of them is out of the question, then?
The sentiments expressed by @Billjones are very similar to those I’ve heard from some owners of NGC coins, who feel they need to get their coins crossed to PCGS holders. The same also goes for owners of ungraded coins, who feel they need to get them graded. In each case, they “risk rejection from a significant number of coin buyers.” It’s a fact of numismatic life, but I don’t blame the grading companies or CAC for it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
When you are spending 5 and 6 figure amounts, it is.
The most expensive coin I have purchased since I abandoned the high priced U.S. coin market was a 1937 Proof half dollar in an NGC PR-65 , no CAC, holder. I bought it bought from very well respected dealer at Summer FUN. Another dealer in the room had two others in PCGS PR-65 CAC holders. They was pretty much the same coin. He wanted almost 50% more. He told me they were too expensive before he got them out of the case.
Fair enough. So why not switch to collecting something that doesn't require the approval of others?
I have been collecting British, with a big interest in the hammered coins and ancient Imperial Roman coins. A lot of those collectors don't like slabs at all, let alone slabs with stickers.
There is not much of anything that you can collect where the state of preservation does not matter. I don't need the approval of 100% of people. The trouble is when you have an outfit like CAC which has a huge amount of veto power over everything, your either knuckle under or leave.
Like it or not, "The Market" is the boss. With the growing acceptance of CAC, including Heritage and Stack's now showing CAC "Retail" pricing in their lots (including lots eligible for a CAC but without one), with the GreySheet now having a standalone quarterly CAC pricing guide, with PCGS creating CAC Composite Registry Sets, with the NGC Registry adding bonus points for coins with CAC's and NO bonus points for coins without CAC's, it's absolutely no wonder that many collectors, right or wrong, will question coins above a certain price point without CAC's as potentially being a "C" coin, and/or one whose surfaces were messed with!
While I recognize as a FACT that not every coin above a certain price has been submitted to CAC, as a buyer, I do assume (for my own protection) that those coins have indeed been submitted and failed. Like it or not, that means there are fewer buyers for coins without CAC's than there would be had there been no such thing as CAC. That's "The Market", and as noted above, the Market is the boss!
Regardless, I fully agree 100% that each collector should buy what they like, for whatever their reasoning.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Hallelujah! Hallelujah!
Ditto to above!
Rather than knuckling under or leaving, why not just buy the non-CAC coins that you like? Surely there are some out there.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
How about learning how to grade and making up your own mind? Does that count for anything or do you have to have one man's approval?
The most expensive coin I ever bought was in an NGC ("wrong holder") with no CAC sticker. It is in an MS-62 holder. Having researched it, I knew that it had been in an NGC MS-61 holder at one time. I decided what i was willing to bid, cleared it with the auction house so far as my personal bid limit was and went after it. I love the coin, but somebody will probably have to spend $3,000 + in grading fees to get it in the "right holder." So it goes.
From a previous brilliant and true post: A picture is worth 1000 words...and this one says it all.
You're looking at this the wrong way, I believe. It's "the market's approval", not one man's. Nobody is forced to go along, who doesn't agree to.
I have purchased the coins I liked with and without the CAC sticker. That was not a problem. What was the problem was when I started reading all the posts here from people who won't buy anything but stickered coins. If there are enough of those guys, you will have to run to the grading services to get your non-stickered coins downgraded so that they might sticker.
The funny part is, CAC has made mistakes. I have saved many pictures of them. A big CAC mistake convinced me it was time to pull in my horns. The dealer who had that coin, usually flips coins in a couple days, but he had that one for four months. But that does not matter. Whatever CAC is the law. You can't buck it.
I don't need that foolishness. I love my U.S. coin collection. I have no desire to sell it, but I can see that the only pieces I can add will have to be low priced if they don't have a sticker. That is very confining, and it makes the search way more harder and expensive. I'm not going there.
No, I'm not taking it the wrong way. One man is telling the market what's good, and the market is following him.
I can't tell you how many business people would love to have situation behind their enterprise.
This thread just keeps on going and going...........
I think the highlighted portion of Mark's statement is critical. The blame rest with collectors to lazy too do the work of learning to grade.
In my opinion the real value of tpg companies is authentication and identifying problem coins. Grading really isn't the rocket science some might make it out to be. I think the more difficult challenge is identifying counterfeits and doctored coins. In the vast majority of GTG threads almost everyone is within a point of the actual grade and all of this is done based on a photograph. Sometimes that one point is really the product of half a point difference.
The other issue, the onus of which also falls on collectors, is the crazy premiums paid for a one point difference in grade. I've heard over and over again what a major difference there is between an MS-67 and 68 or 68 and 69 or 69 and 70. Total and complete nonsense. What drives the need for critical tpg and CAC confirmation are the insane premiums paid for one point differences in grade. If someone is paying a 10x premium for that one point they want the world to agree that that one point difference exist and is important. In my opinion those premiums reflect missing the forest for the trees. No one is going to convince me that a 1911 MS-66 St. Gaudens is worth $200K while an MS-65 is worth $40K and this doesn't begin to reflect some of the really insane premiums paid for extremely small difference in coins, especially those in the higher grades.
I know there is no getting the genie back in the bottle but the ones to blame for the mess that expanded the importance of tpg beyond authentication and identifying doctored coins are collectors.
Ok- so the market approves of his approval. As soon as it doesn't, they'll stop following him.
Because I have a lot of better things to do with my time than take the countless hundreds of hours (or more) to get even close to what JA knows. My time has value, and improving my grading skills to that level is just not worth it, TO ME!!!!
I could also go to Medical School to learn how to accurately self-diagnose my own ills, but again, my time has value, so I'll pay my own doctor to do those diagnosis's for me. Much more cost effective! Is that OK?
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
The problem was when I started reading all the posts here from people who won't buy anything but stickered coins. If there are enough of those guys, you will have to run to the grading services to get your non-stickered coins downgraded so that they _might sticker._I'm speculating, but my sense is there's not a lot of CAC collectors taking "C" coins out of slabs to have them downgraded just so they can get a CAC sticker at the next lower grade. Maybe for coins valued at less than $500 or so that might possibly be going on, but as noted, I don't believe that's going on to a large degree with coins valued above that. Just my two cents!
I believe your main point is that a growing collector segment will not buy coins without CAC's. To each his own!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Agreed that a number of coin buyers prefer CAC and some exclusively CAC.
It is not plain wrong. It is the market. CAC was a clever idea and has succeeded. Nothing is 'just plain wrong' with an open market.
Like you, I had an inventory of PCGS coins in my collection when CAC started. Some of these coins I really like did not CAC (cert #s 34179219, 34179224, 34179225, 34179210 - and all have Truviews). I am not going to get rid of them because of that. Yes, I have lost several thousand dollars in a future hypothetical sale of the half dollars. Thems the breaks, man. The market is one of the cruelest taskmasters one will ever meet. I do not attribute the future hypothetical loss to the development of CAC, the idea itself, or the individuals involved. I do not think that I was wronged.
Nor is it going to stop me from purchasing U. S. coins. I do prefer searches of CAC inventory to the full search most of the time; I do the full inventory searches from time to time. If an appealing non-stickered example of an issue that is rarely seen and nearly impossible with CAC (cert # 38172839) is available and I really like it, then it joins my collection.
To close, I agree with your one point. Recognizing market realities and kowtowing seem to be analogous for us.
Grading isn't rocket science. I don't think the issue is really grading but name recognition. I think just about anyone could learn to grade very accurately after getting familiar with the standards for each grade, viewing 100 examples of a particular coin in various stages of preservation and given accurate feedback. I don't think you really learn that much more after viewing the next 100 or 1000 coins but I'd be interest in hearing what others think.
Some people like white. Some people like toners. Who do I hold responsible for that?
Who knew that since I almost only buy CAC approved gold coins, I had this enormous impact on the coin market with a few other posters on these boards! Wow! Cant argue with that logic! Maybe to save collecting I should buy a few non CAC coins and save the hobby!
I don't fully understand this. You won't get CAC money when you sell, but you also won't have to spend CAC money to buy. Other than price envy, why can't you buy CACless 5 figure coins?
You must not look at the same GTG threads I do.😉
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Because you don't know what the bottom is on this thing. If you spend $50,000 on a coin that has not been approved by the only grader who counts in the coin business, you might well own something that is the same as a raw coin after a while.
Viewing 100 coins puts you on the same footing as JA?
My Take - Not to worry
CAC only about 1.8 Pct of certified coins accepted by ebay (Anacs, ICG, PCGS, NGC). So if somebody only buys CAC coins……they gonna pay more:
Friend who sets up says “Sure I might buy a few CAC coins make case look good lol but I have to pay more for CAC coins so keep simple (no Rocket Sci) just markup b coins cost plus 50pct, A coins 100 pct markup, sometimes more. Until sell don’t worry about buying any more.”
My CAC matl sold out haven’t found any at my price yet. Mainly interest in currency & non US Coin areas at present. Might buy US coins if price right but tired of same ole stuff.
Quite a few very reputable and highly qualified dealers have had coins they think would CAC but don't!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Then buy the coins raw.
BTW... "approved by the only grader who counts in the coin business"? Strawman alert!
I once when to Technical school in the evenings to learn how to build automatic transmissions so I could sue AAMCO! Guess what! I beat them in court!
Principles are very important to me and I do what I have to do when the time calls.
What's the point? GC, Heritage, Stacks, DLRC, Legends, and hundreds of reputable dealers also sell coins, and many have CAC's! Believe it or not. the numismatic world does not revolve around eBay!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Edited to correct my statement...
Put you on the same footing no. Get you up to speed in a way that gets you to a point of agreement 95% of the time, yes.
Let's play "guess the grade." What do you think this coin's grade is?
And let's compare it to this one.
Wow, just wow. I'm beginning to wonder if the choir is earning a commission for each post they make!
That just further demonstrates the ridiculous nature of so called grading "standards" and the insanity in paying 5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.
Lol---you said that you only need to see 100 coins of a series to grade accurately
I vote "no".
There are so many nuances to grading. You'll be better after the first 100, but you'll still be learning after 1000 coins... even if all 1000 coins are the same type. I look at thousands of coins every year and I'm still learning.
Or it means the exact opposite: people overestimate their abilities.
Are you still learning major issues or minor nuances?
You're arguing with yourself. You're the one who said you don't learn much after the first 100.
Maybe, and some people overestimate the importance of their abilities.
I don’t know of any coins that are bought for “5x and higher premiums for one individuals opinion on a grade.” No need to exaggerate to try to make your point.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
If you interpret anything I said as you don't learn much after the first 100 then I wasn't clear. I thinkmyou learn the vast majority of what you need to learn after viewing the first 100 of a type with appropriate feedback.
Are you sure he hasn't just revealed the fallacy that underlies his opinion?
And @Gazes suggested that was ridiculous and you countered by asking him if he thought JA only looked at 100 coins.
?????
You don't know of any coins where a one point difference in grade results in a 5x premium?
No takers on the grade quiz with the Monroe commemorative half dollars?
1876 Liberty $20 MS-64 $45K, MS-65 $225K
1907 Saint, MS-66 $7,750, MS-67 $55K