Why all this stuff about what JA thinks? Craziest thing ever seen here lol. He is just one player in it. What ya gonna do when he’s retired or gone? I have never paid him a dime and never will.
@Cougar1978 said:
Why all this stuff about what JA thinks? Craziest thing ever seen here lol. He is just one player in it. What ya gonna do when he’s retired or gone? I have never paid him a dime and never will.
That’s unfortunate, but thank goodness we all have free choice!
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
The biggest take for me from this thread (besides all the opinions on grading) is the slow boil of passive-aggressive LOL's being handed out for posts that really aren't LOL. Hope that eases the blood pressure of the ones handing out the LOL's.
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
You've missed the point! It's a matter of degrees!!!! Most of my 20th Century silver coins have in all likelihood been dipped at some point, but apparently gently enough to still merit the CAC stickers. These are very highly lustrous. Every one eligible for a CAC has a CAC.
PCGS (and NGC) will "Detail" a coin that they feel has been cleaned or dipped too much, but will straight grade a coin they recognize has been cleaned or dipped, but not overly so IN THEIR opinion. It appears that JA has a higher/tougher standard, and will not apply the CAC sticker that in CAC's opinion has been cleaned or dipped or has had some other surface treatment too much (in their opinion, as noted).
Steve
I'm not sure what point I missed. I stated that green beans are not a guarantee of original surfaces. Nothing you stated above contradicts that.
My understanding is that coins with non-original services can be CACed. If not, there would be very few CAC approved coins!
I think the hangup has been how the word"original" has been interpreted. According to some original can encompass surfaces that have been dramatically changed as long as the change is attractive in appearance. A coin can have significant toning and in the world of numismatics still be considered to have original surfaces. I disagree but I'm not a numismatist.
That said even among numismatist there seems to be disagreement over where the line is drawn on that issue. Based on the comments made by those that know JA he is more conservative when it comes to acknowledging a coin as having original surfaces with respect to toned coins.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Why all this stuff about what JA thinks? Craziest thing ever seen here lol. He is just one player in it. What ya gonna do when he’s retired or gone? I have never paid him a dime and never will.
The "stuff" about what JA thinks is critical in a discussion of CAC and his assignment of the CAC sticker. His opinion regarding a coin's grade is highly valued to the point of having a significant impact on the market. This thread was meant in part to define that market. As mention in the OP my opinion is that market is higher value coins where one point difference in the grade can have a dramatic impact on pricing. Not so much a $30 coin that would be $60 in the next higher grade but a $1000 coin that would be $2000 or a $100K that would be $200K in the next higher grade. In all of these circumstances we're taking a 2x difference but I'd don't think anyone believes there is an equivalent importance in getting the grade right.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
As an example I have submitted several sub-$100 Franklin halves with NO intention of every buying a Franklin halve costing more than $100. That was quite educational for sure and taught me what to look for in that series.
@ElmerFusterpuck said:
The biggest take for me from this thread (besides all the opinions on grading) is the slow boil of passive-aggressive LOL's being handed out for posts that really aren't LOL. Hope that eases the blood pressure of the ones handing out the LOL's.
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
As an example I have submitted several sub-$100 Franklin halves with NO intention of every buying a Franklin halve costing more than $100. That was quite educational for sure and taught me what to look for in that series.
Best, SH
I picked up a copy of the ANA grading guide for $15 and got an education on Franklin's and just about every other U.S. coin ever minted.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
CAC....
50% luster
20% Eye appeal (mostly just more luster)
20% Surface preservation
10% rarity
Me...
75% Surface preservation
25% Strike
I think it should be obvious we are very different.
I get a sense we’re talking about two different things. What you describe above with PCGS Surface preservation deals with marks and other “distractions”. I’m talking not about that, but CAC is very concerned with surface issues about what was done previously to the surface of a coin. That difference is night and day. So yes, while both you and I are concerned about surface preservation for grading, I fully agree with you that it’s obvious we are very different, as like CAC, I’m concerned what JA recognizes as Surface Issues, and you’re not.
Steve
When we talk about surface preservation wouldn't that be the discussion of what has happened to a coin after it has been struck (marks, toning, cleaning, tooling, etc.)? Are you saying CAC is more critical of these things versus PCGS?
IIRC JA likes original surfaces.
Who doesn't?
EDIT: There are tons of dipped coins with CAC stickers. Green beans are no guarantee of original surfaces.
Not only that, JA is hugely critical of dark or thick toning on classics. Which considering the monetary incentive of CAC stickers, almost puts positive market pressure on the treatment of coins. CAC wants attractive not original, it just so happens that choicely original is considered attractive these days.
My impression is very different from that. I think he’s more tolerant of dark, thickly toned, original looking coins. And therefore, discourages dipping, to some extent.
Hugely might have be an overstatement but I have heard differently from the horses mouth in line with what Orville stated more effectively. I am mainly speaking about seated series and standards vary from series to series.
From what I have seen any total coin muted/non-flashy toning becomes an up hill battle for a sticker. The nicest 78cc I have ever seen didnt CAC.
@edwardjulio said:
2._ Membership opens every couple of months or so. I suggest you apply for a Collector Submitter membership, and then be patient. My guess is within a couple of months or so, you’ll be accepted._
If you are a member of Liberty Seated Collectors Club, I believe you can obtain a membership. I was able to do so.
When I joined you had to have a current ANA Membership and provide the membership number in order to be approved. Not sure if that is still the case.
I have ~20 MS66 relatively common date Morgan’s which I didn’t sell a few years ago because they were selling too cheaply at the time. Fast forward to the present. I plan to thin the herd and I decided to send them all to CAC and will sell the ones that don’t sticker and keep the rest for myself. Half stickered so my total cost was $210, $160 for CAC and another $50 for shipping and insurance. (I use ship and insure which is very reasonable). I now have ten MS66 Morgan’s which I’ll probably never sell that one of the best graders in the world thinks are better than average for their grade.
Ya know I have never bought a 66 Morgan and never will. 64 and 65 good enough for me.
But it is a case in point folks if some collector comes to your table with slabbed coins to sell. Are these his culls and he’s dumping off on you? Don’t offer them above blue sheet if even that much. 50-60 pct of bid……probly my max. A give away will be the coins all look average quality possibly some really low end. I just low ball the heck out of them. If no deal then he can go dump somewhere else lol. A good parameter wb offer 60 pct of bid max. Then you could flip 10 pct behind bid make 50 pct markup.
@skier07 said:
Here’s another way that CAC can be helpful:
I have ~20 MS66 relatively common date Morgan’s which I didn’t sell a few years ago because they were selling too cheaply at the time. Fast forward to the present. I plan to thin the herd and I decided to send them all to CAC and will sell the ones that don’t sticker and keep the rest for myself. Half stickered so my total cost was $210, $160 for CAC and another $50 for shipping and insurance. (I use ship and insure which is very reasonable). I now have ten MS66 Morgan’s which I’ll probably never sell that one of the best graders in the world thinks are better than average for their grade.
I don't really play DVD movies anymore, so I decided to sell half of my old collection. I checked Siskel's site and kept the ones he had rated the highest. I kind of hated to part with some of my old favorites, but he is one of the best reviewers out there...
@Cougar1978 said:
Ya know I have never bought a 66 Morgan and never will. 64 and 65 good enough for me.
That's good! Apparently @skier07 likes to own MS66's, and that's OK too. Whatever one chooses to collect is great, as long as they collect, which is beneficial to us all.
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@edwardjulio said:
2._ Membership opens every couple of months or so. I suggest you apply for a Collector Submitter membership, and then be patient. My guess is within a couple of months or so, you’ll be accepted._
If you are a member of Liberty Seated Collectors Club, I believe you can obtain a membership. I was able to do so.
When I joined you had to have a current ANA Membership and provide the membership number in order to be approved. Not sure if that is still the case.
I joined a few months ago. While I don’t know if it is mandatory it is still on the form. My three references were three generous members here including one who has commented already. My appreciation to them for sure.
@ReadyFireAim said:
I think "luster grading" AKA CAC grading is a fad & will end when JA pulls the plug.
This time period will be know as the "bean-era"
I predict coins will be graded entirely on strike during the next obsession.
Not sure what the sticker will look like.
Like on the prior page, here’s another person who regularly is anti-CAC, throwing up remote hypotheticals to try to come up with more rationales for himself to not accept CAC!
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
@ReadyFireAim said:
I think "luster grading" AKA CAC grading is a fad & will end when JA pulls the plug.
This time period will be know as the "bean-era"
I predict coins will be graded entirely on strike during the next obsession.
Not sure what the sticker will look like.
Like on the prior page, here’s another person who regularly is anti-CAC, throwing up remote hypotheticals to try to come up with more rationales for himself to not accept CAC!
Steve
I suspect that he’d be a lot less negative about CAC if he hadn’t fared so poorly in his submission(s?).
And his comments about “luster grading” indicate to me that he needs to look at a lot more coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
I suspect that he’d be a lot less negative about CAC if he hadn’t fared so poorly in his submission(s?).
And his comments about “luster grading” indicate to me that he needs to look at a lot more coins.
Says the one drinking the green Kool-Aid in his avatar.
@MFeld said:
I suspect that he’d be a lot less negative about CAC if he hadn’t fared so poorly in his submission(s?).
And his comments about “luster grading” indicate to me that he needs to look at a lot more coins.
Says the one drinking the green Kool-Aid in his avatar.
That was sort of cute. But in addition to viewing more coins, you should get your facts straight about my avatar.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying - EDUCATION, at a low price. I am out of this thread........
If you collect exclusively error coins, like I do, you don’t have to concern yourself with stickers since they don’t qualify for the service. I’ve been reading these kinds of threads for years, it’s always interesting, especially from the sidelines.
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying - EDUCATION, at a low price. I am out of this thread........
I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I apologize for not being clear enough. What I meant to state is that JA’s graders overruled JA’s previous decision to reject the coin and they were able to convince JA that such coin should be stickered on a resubmission.
All coins that are stickered has JA’s final approval.
Ya know I have never bought a 66 Morgan and never will. 64 and 65 good enough for me.
But it is a case in point folks if some collector comes to your table with slabbed coins to sell. Are these his culls and he’s dumping off on you? Don’t offer them above blue sheet if even that much. 50-60 pct of bid……probly my max. A give away will be the coins all look average quality possibly some really low end. I just low ball the heck out of them. If no deal then he can go dump somewhere else lol. A good parameter wb offer 60 pct of bid max. Then you could flip 10 pct behind bid make 50 pct markup.
You could also do the more honorable thing and pay 20 percent back and flip at 10 percent back and make a 12% profit. But, you do you.
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying - EDUCATION, at a low price. I am out of this thread........
I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC.
I recall a prior thread where your understanding of the $15 ANA grading guide was er....questionable.
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying - EDUCATION, at a low price. I am out of this thread........
I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC.
I recall a prior thread where your understanding of the $15 ANA grading guide was er....questionable.
Questionable by who? You, someone that doesn't understand the meaning of "fully original"? It seems that where this tread touched on surface preservation the meaning of "fully original" began to become clear. At some point the experts acknowledge that a coin with some degree of toning can't be said to have fully original luster. The question then becomes at what point does that occur. Would you like to take a crack at where that line is drawn? I'll wait.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Ya know I have never bought a 66 Morgan and never will. 64 and 65 good enough for me.
But it is a case in point folks if some collector comes to your table with slabbed coins to sell. Are these his culls and he’s dumping off on you? Don’t offer them above blue sheet if even that much. 50-60 pct of bid……probly my max. A give away will be the coins all look average quality possibly some really low end. I just low ball the heck out of them. If no deal then he can go dump somewhere else lol. A good parameter wb offer 60 pct of bid max. Then you could flip 10 pct behind bid make 50 pct markup.
You could also do the more honorable thing and pay 20 percent back and flip at 10 percent back and make a 12% profit. But, you do you.
How I mark up my stuff is my call. Trying to inject “honorable” in your argument ignores he’s trying dump on me lol. And these C coins (did Not CAC). Ya know on 2nd thought I think even 50 pct bid offer on them probably overly generous rofl. Furthermore 12c on the dollar doesn’t cut it in the coin biz.
Ya know I have never bought a 66 Morgan and never will. 64 and 65 good enough for me.
But it is a case in point folks if some collector comes to your table with slabbed coins to sell. Are these his culls and he’s dumping off on you? Don’t offer them above blue sheet if even that much. 50-60 pct of bid……probly my max. A give away will be the coins all look average quality possibly some really low end. I just low ball the heck out of them. If no deal then he can go dump somewhere else lol. A good parameter wb offer 60 pct of bid max. Then you could flip 10 pct behind bid make 50 pct markup.
You could also do the more honorable thing and pay 20 percent back and flip at 10 percent back and make a 12% profit. But, you do you.
How I mark up my stuff is my call. Trying to inject “honorable” in your argument ignores he’s trying dump on me lol. Furthermore 12c on the dollar doesn’t cut it in the coin biz.
Actually, most coin dealers operate on a 10% margin. Kind of hard to do more than that in a commodity business.
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying - EDUCATION, at a low price. I am out of this thread........
I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC.
I recall a prior thread where your understanding of the $15 ANA grading guide was er....questionable.
Questionable by who? You, someone that doesn't understand the meaning of "fully original"? It seems that where this tread touched on surface preservation the meaning of "fully original" began to become clear. At some point the experts acknowledge that a coin with some degree of toning can't be said to have fully original luster. The question then becomes at what point does that occur. Would you like to take a crack at where that line is drawn? I'll wait.
I'm not starting that argument again. But understanding PCGS and CAC standards is very different than reading your $15 book and applying your subjective standard. So you cannot claim that your $15 book gives you the same market education as submitting coins.
This is an attempt to clarify a few statements from this thread.
“This could be a sticky position and a hard decision for CAC to make when the time comes,,,,,, to change the sticker or not.” This decision was made long ago, the sticker will change.
“JA is the finalizer and has the last word. I believe that he sees EVERY coin.” This is an accurate.
“I believe they do the actual grading & JA just inspects them for luster without any magnification.” This is not accurate, JA is the finalizer which requires much more than just inspecting for luster.
“My guess is about 2 seconds per coin unless it's very expensive/rare.” This guess is not accurate, although some coins can be evaluated quickly JA is able to do about 500 or less coins per day. Sometimes coins are given a second look.
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying - EDUCATION, at a low price. I am out of this thread........
I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC.
I recall a prior thread where your understanding of the $15 ANA grading guide was er....questionable.
Questionable by who? You, someone that doesn't understand the meaning of "fully original"? It seems that where this tread touched on surface preservation the meaning of "fully original" began to become clear. At some point the experts acknowledge that a coin with some degree of toning can't be said to have fully original luster. The question then becomes at what point does that occur. Would you like to take a crack at where that line is drawn? I'll wait.
I'm not starting that argument again. But understanding PCGS and CAC standards is very different than reading your $15 book and applying your subjective standard. So you cannot claim that your $15 book gives you the same market education as submitting coins.
Of course you’re not going to argue that issue again because you were wrong then and this thread proves you’d be wrong again.
But now you create a strawman argument. I never said studying the ANA guide gives the same education as submitting coins. It really depends on the number of coins submitted and whether a detailed explanation of the grade is provided when the coins are returned, otherwise you are guessing at why a particular grade was given or not given a particular grade. A grade is the compilation of many factors not just one.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying - EDUCATION, at a low price. I am out of this thread........
I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC.
I recall a prior thread where your understanding of the $15 ANA grading guide was er....questionable.
Questionable by who? You, someone that doesn't understand the meaning of "fully original"? It seems that where this tread touched on surface preservation the meaning of "fully original" began to become clear. At some point the experts acknowledge that a coin with some degree of toning can't be said to have fully original luster. The question then becomes at what point does that occur. Would you like to take a crack at where that line is drawn? I'll wait.
I'm not starting that argument again. But understanding PCGS and CAC standards is very different than reading your $15 book and applying your subjective standard. So you cannot claim that your $15 book gives you the same market education as submitting coins.
Of course you’re not going to argue that issue again because you were wrong then and this thread proves you’d be wrong again.
But now you create a strawman argument. I never said studying the ANA guide gives the same education as submitting coins. It really depends on the number of coins submitted and whether a detailed explanation of the grade is provided when the coins are returned, otherwise you are guessing at why a particular grade was given or not given a particular grade. A grade is the compilation of many factors not just one.
You said: "I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC."
Actually, you just admitted in this thread that you were wrong on the other thread. You said: "At some point the experts acknowledge that a coin with some degree of toning can't be said to have fully original luster. The question then becomes at what point does that occur. " On the other thread you said that all toning made the surface non-original. You now accept that some toning allows the surface to be "original". You could have saved us 500 posts on the other thread and just admitted that.
I think this question has been answered, as this post is at almost 5 pages already. People care!
But, in more seriousness, modern grading is a consensus exercise. Having a second opinion from an expert (or second series of experts) strengthens the confidence in the grading result's accuracy relative to the consensus. This is worth money to many folks, as indicated by the general premium CAC approved coins carry.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
I think your comments narrow down the target audience for CAC submission. While you mention submitting a $40 coin it’s tied to what you can learn from it when buying a $4K coin. You’re still associating the value of CAC to relatively expensive coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
You clearly don't understand what I am saying - EDUCATION, at a low price. I am out of this thread........
I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC.
I recall a prior thread where your understanding of the $15 ANA grading guide was er....questionable.
Questionable by who? You, someone that doesn't understand the meaning of "fully original"? It seems that where this tread touched on surface preservation the meaning of "fully original" began to become clear. At some point the experts acknowledge that a coin with some degree of toning can't be said to have fully original luster. The question then becomes at what point does that occur. Would you like to take a crack at where that line is drawn? I'll wait.
I'm not starting that argument again. But understanding PCGS and CAC standards is very different than reading your $15 book and applying your subjective standard. So you cannot claim that your $15 book gives you the same market education as submitting coins.
Of course you’re not going to argue that issue again because you were wrong then and this thread proves you’d be wrong again.
But now you create a strawman argument. I never said studying the ANA guide gives the same education as submitting coins. It really depends on the number of coins submitted and whether a detailed explanation of the grade is provided when the coins are returned, otherwise you are guessing at why a particular grade was given or not given a particular grade. A grade is the compilation of many factors not just one.
You said: "I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC."
Actually, you just admitted in this thread that you were wrong on the other thread. You said: "At some point the experts acknowledge that a coin with some degree of toning can't be said to have fully original luster. The question then becomes at what point does that occur. " On the other thread you said that all toning made the surface non-original. You now accept that some toning allows the surface to be "original". You could have saved us 500 posts on the other thread and just admitted that.
I did not admit I was wrong in my opinion that any toning is a diminishing of original luster. That is a scientific fact. The issue as far as grading is concerned is where the experts draw the line in saying what level of toning disqualifies a coin from being considered to have fully original luster. But they all seem to acknowledge that at some point toning does in fact result in that disqualification. Again, your invited to share your opinion on where that line should be drawn.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I think this question has been answered, as this post is at almost 5 pages already. People care!
But, in more seriousness, modern grading is a consensus exercise. Having a second opinion from an expert (or second series of experts) strengthens the confidence in the grading result's accuracy relative to the consensus. This is worth money to many folks, as indicated by the general premium CAC approved coins carry.
I agree, that second consensus on a grade is especially important as the value of coins increases and/or the premium between grades increases.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@2ltdjorn said:
Seems like discriminating buyers do.
There are discriminating buyers of raw coins.You could probably make an argument that some of them are even more discriminating since they are relying on their expertise to select a coin without the help of TPG.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
I agree, that second consensus on a grade is especially important as the value of coins increases and/or the premium between grades increases.
.
And even on a $30 coin if your goal is to learn about grading and what is quality so that you can make better choices and maximize the quality of a collection at any price point, (changed my mind to not comment again ). 99.9% of us will greatly benefit from CAC's opinion at any price point, $30 to zillions. I can name maybe a dozen or so on these boards and in the field that probably don't need CAC's opinion, but most of them have seen and evaluated 100,000's of coins. Have you?
As I have heard it said here, the people that hit hard on CAC and try to justify against submitting (at any price point, even $30), are likely the ones that need their evaluations the most.........
@ReadyFireAim said:
Imagine you're in the coin bizz and there are 10 boxes of 20 of your favorite coin in front of you.
You have 15min to select 20....GO......
How ya gonna do it?
(They are all < $5000)
Bad news - I'm pretty sure CAC spends more than 4.5 seconds per coin they examine, so your point does not hold water. Someone above estimated JA finalizes about 500 coins per day. Assuming a six hour day, that's about 43 seconds per coin.
Yes, I agree it's not a lot of time, but it's a heck of a lot more than your example of only 4-1/2 seconds per coin.
Steve
A day without fine wine and working on your coin collection is like a day without sunshine!!!
Comments
Ok, thanks. My error
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
.
Ya know I don’t care.
Why all this stuff about what JA thinks? Craziest thing ever seen here lol. He is just one player in it. What ya gonna do when he’s retired or gone? I have never paid him a dime and never will.
That’s unfortunate, but thank goodness we all have free choice!
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
The biggest take for me from this thread (besides all the opinions on grading) is the slow boil of passive-aggressive LOL's being handed out for posts that really aren't LOL. Hope that eases the blood pressure of the ones handing out the LOL's.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
I think the hangup has been how the word"original" has been interpreted. According to some original can encompass surfaces that have been dramatically changed as long as the change is attractive in appearance. A coin can have significant toning and in the world of numismatics still be considered to have original surfaces. I disagree but I'm not a numismatist.
That said even among numismatist there seems to be disagreement over where the line is drawn on that issue. Based on the comments made by those that know JA he is more conservative when it comes to acknowledging a coin as having original surfaces with respect to toned coins.
I said I regularly submit inexpensive coins for 3 reasons, for learning about what a quality coin is for the grade even if inexpensive, for registry, and for learning about what to expect when buying more expensive and similar coins to the inexpensive coins. So 2 of 3 reasons are not tied to what I can learn for buying an expensive coin. Nowadays after all of that learning from CAC, I am extremely reluctant to buy an unbeaned coin online and w/o seeing in hand.
For almost everyone but the best graders out there, I believe it is a missed educational opportunity to not submit to CAC no matter what the price point is for a collection. 99% of collections will greatly benefit by submitting IMO.
Best, SH
The "stuff" about what JA thinks is critical in a discussion of CAC and his assignment of the CAC sticker. His opinion regarding a coin's grade is highly valued to the point of having a significant impact on the market. This thread was meant in part to define that market. As mention in the OP my opinion is that market is higher value coins where one point difference in the grade can have a dramatic impact on pricing. Not so much a $30 coin that would be $60 in the next higher grade but a $1000 coin that would be $2000 or a $100K that would be $200K in the next higher grade. In all of these circumstances we're taking a 2x difference but I'd don't think anyone believes there is an equivalent importance in getting the grade right.
As an example I have submitted several sub-$100 Franklin halves with NO intention of every buying a Franklin halve costing more than $100. That was quite educational for sure and taught me what to look for in that series.
Best, SH
They miss the disagree button.
I understood your points and the value you place on the learning aspect. That said the value of that education becomes much more critical as the price of the coins increase. You have your own standards for what you collect and that's perfectly fine. But I'm sure it would be more important to you to recover your cost on a $4,000 coin versus a $40 coin. If that is the case having the CAC sticker on the $4,000 coin is much more critical than having it on the $40 coin.
Personally I'm not tremendously critical when it comes to the coins I buy for two reasons.
The first is I don't buy very expensive coins and especially avoid coins where there is a significant in difference in cost between grades. When I say significant I'm talking about dollar amount more than mere percentage. There is a tremendous difference in a 50% grade premium for a $50 coin versus a 50% premium for $5,000 coin.
The second reason is I don't need the best of the best when I buy an example of a coin I like. For me getting a problem free coin (not harshly cleaned, tooled, whizzed, AT, etc.) that has most of the details intact, some mint luster (sometimes found in a nice AU coin) and no very distracting marks is good enough for me. I'm not a condition rarity guy.
I say all of that to say the value that CAC adds becomes increasingly important as the price of the coin increases.
I picked up a copy of the ANA grading guide for $15 and got an education on Franklin's and just about every other U.S. coin ever minted.
Hugely might have be an overstatement but I have heard differently from the horses mouth in line with what Orville stated more effectively. I am mainly speaking about seated series and standards vary from series to series.
From what I have seen any total coin muted/non-flashy toning becomes an up hill battle for a sticker. The nicest 78cc I have ever seen didnt CAC.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
When I joined you had to have a current ANA Membership and provide the membership number in order to be approved. Not sure if that is still the case.
Here’s another way that CAC can be helpful:
I have ~20 MS66 relatively common date Morgan’s which I didn’t sell a few years ago because they were selling too cheaply at the time. Fast forward to the present. I plan to thin the herd and I decided to send them all to CAC and will sell the ones that don’t sticker and keep the rest for myself. Half stickered so my total cost was $210, $160 for CAC and another $50 for shipping and insurance. (I use ship and insure which is very reasonable). I now have ten MS66 Morgan’s which I’ll probably never sell that one of the best graders in the world thinks are better than average for their grade.
Interesting on the 66 coins.
Ya know I have never bought a 66 Morgan and never will. 64 and 65 good enough for me.
But it is a case in point folks if some collector comes to your table with slabbed coins to sell. Are these his culls and he’s dumping off on you? Don’t offer them above blue sheet if even that much. 50-60 pct of bid……probly my max. A give away will be the coins all look average quality possibly some really low end. I just low ball the heck out of them. If no deal then he can go dump somewhere else lol. A good parameter wb offer 60 pct of bid max. Then you could flip 10 pct behind bid make 50 pct markup.
I don't really play DVD movies anymore, so I decided to sell half of my old collection. I checked Siskel's site and kept the ones he had rated the highest. I kind of hated to part with some of my old favorites, but he is one of the best reviewers out there...
That's good! Apparently @skier07 likes to own MS66's, and that's OK too. Whatever one chooses to collect is great, as long as they collect, which is beneficial to us all.
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I joined a few months ago. While I don’t know if it is mandatory it is still on the form. My three references were three generous members here including one who has commented already. My appreciation to them for sure.
I think "luster grading" AKA CAC grading is a fad & will end when JA pulls the plug.
This time period will be know as the "bean-era"
I predict coins will be graded entirely on strike during the next obsession.
Not sure what the sticker will look like.
My Saint Set
Like on the prior page, here’s another person who regularly is anti-CAC, throwing up remote hypotheticals to try to come up with more rationales for himself to not accept CAC!
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I suspect that he’d be a lot less negative about CAC if he hadn’t fared so poorly in his submission(s?).
And his comments about “luster grading” indicate to me that he needs to look at a lot more coins.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Says the one drinking the green Kool-Aid in his avatar.
My Saint Set
That was sort of cute. But in addition to viewing more coins, you should get your facts straight about my avatar.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Coin doctor?
My Saint Set
@ReadyFireAim , while you and I respectfully disagree with each other, I have to admit you made me laugh twice with your last two replies. 😂
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
Funny now, but something tells me he's going to be up all night typing and I'm going to have to read several pages tomorrow.
My Saint Set
You clearly don't understand what I am saying - EDUCATION, at a low price. I am out of this thread........
If you collect exclusively error coins, like I do, you don’t have to concern yourself with stickers since they don’t qualify for the service. I’ve been reading these kinds of threads for years, it’s always interesting, especially from the sidelines.
I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC.
zoins stated:
“ Wow! JA gets over-ruled for CAC!”
I apologize for not being clear enough. What I meant to state is that JA’s graders overruled JA’s previous decision to reject the coin and they were able to convince JA that such coin should be stickered on a resubmission.
All coins that are stickered has JA’s final approval.
You could also do the more honorable thing and pay 20 percent back and flip at 10 percent back and make a 12% profit. But, you do you.
I recall a prior thread where your understanding of the $15 ANA grading guide was er....questionable.
Questionable by who? You, someone that doesn't understand the meaning of "fully original"? It seems that where this tread touched on surface preservation the meaning of "fully original" began to become clear. At some point the experts acknowledge that a coin with some degree of toning can't be said to have fully original luster. The question then becomes at what point does that occur. Would you like to take a crack at where that line is drawn? I'll wait.
How I mark up my stuff is my call. Trying to inject “honorable” in your argument ignores he’s trying dump on me lol. And these C coins (did Not CAC). Ya know on 2nd thought I think even 50 pct bid offer on them probably overly generous rofl. Furthermore 12c on the dollar doesn’t cut it in the coin biz.
Actually, most coin dealers operate on a 10% margin. Kind of hard to do more than that in a commodity business.
I'm not starting that argument again. But understanding PCGS and CAC standards is very different than reading your $15 book and applying your subjective standard. So you cannot claim that your $15 book gives you the same market education as submitting coins.
This is an attempt to clarify a few statements from this thread.
“This could be a sticky position and a hard decision for CAC to make when the time comes,,,,,, to change the sticker or not.” This decision was made long ago, the sticker will change.
“JA is the finalizer and has the last word. I believe that he sees EVERY coin.” This is an accurate.
“I believe they do the actual grading & JA just inspects them for luster without any magnification.” This is not accurate, JA is the finalizer which requires much more than just inspecting for luster.
“My guess is about 2 seconds per coin unless it's very expensive/rare.” This guess is not accurate, although some coins can be evaluated quickly JA is able to do about 500 or less coins per day. Sometimes coins are given a second look.
Of course you’re not going to argue that issue again because you were wrong then and this thread proves you’d be wrong again.
But now you create a strawman argument. I never said studying the ANA guide gives the same education as submitting coins. It really depends on the number of coins submitted and whether a detailed explanation of the grade is provided when the coins are returned, otherwise you are guessing at why a particular grade was given or not given a particular grade. A grade is the compilation of many factors not just one.
You said: "I understood what you said perfectly. You can get an inexpensive education with a $15 ANA grading guide. You can get a very good education without the expense of sending inexpensive coins to CAC."
Actually, you just admitted in this thread that you were wrong on the other thread. You said: "At some point the experts acknowledge that a coin with some degree of toning can't be said to have fully original luster. The question then becomes at what point does that occur. " On the other thread you said that all toning made the surface non-original. You now accept that some toning allows the surface to be "original". You could have saved us 500 posts on the other thread and just admitted that.
I think this question has been answered, as this post is at almost 5 pages already. People care!
But, in more seriousness, modern grading is a consensus exercise. Having a second opinion from an expert (or second series of experts) strengthens the confidence in the grading result's accuracy relative to the consensus. This is worth money to many folks, as indicated by the general premium CAC approved coins carry.
Aercus Numismatics - Certified coins for sale
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
I did not admit I was wrong in my opinion that any toning is a diminishing of original luster. That is a scientific fact. The issue as far as grading is concerned is where the experts draw the line in saying what level of toning disqualifies a coin from being considered to have fully original luster. But they all seem to acknowledge that at some point toning does in fact result in that disqualification. Again, your invited to share your opinion on where that line should be drawn.
I agree, that second consensus on a grade is especially important as the value of coins increases and/or the premium between grades increases.
Seems like discriminating buyers do.
There are discriminating buyers of raw coins.You could probably make an argument that some of them are even more discriminating since they are relying on their expertise to select a coin without the help of TPG.
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And even on a $30 coin if your goal is to learn about grading and what is quality so that you can make better choices and maximize the quality of a collection at any price point, (changed my mind to not comment again ). 99.9% of us will greatly benefit from CAC's opinion at any price point, $30 to zillions. I can name maybe a dozen or so on these boards and in the field that probably don't need CAC's opinion, but most of them have seen and evaluated 100,000's of coins. Have you?
As I have heard it said here, the people that hit hard on CAC and try to justify against submitting (at any price point, even $30), are likely the ones that need their evaluations the most.........
A little thought experiment for you.
Imagine you're in the coin bizz and there are 10 boxes of 20 of your favorite coin in front of you.
You have 15min to select 20....GO......
How ya gonna do it?
(They are all < $5000 & you have 100K)
My Saint Set
Bad news - I'm pretty sure CAC spends more than 4.5 seconds per coin they examine, so your point does not hold water. Someone above estimated JA finalizes about 500 coins per day. Assuming a six hour day, that's about 43 seconds per coin.
Yes, I agree it's not a lot of time, but it's a heck of a lot more than your example of only 4-1/2 seconds per coin.
Steve
My collecting “Pride & Joy” is my PCGS Registry Dansco 7070 Set:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/type-sets/design-type-sets/complete-dansco-7070-modified-type-set-1796-date/publishedset/213996
I edited to add..."Thought experiment"
And if they were saints, I could do it in 2 1/4 seconds.
My Saint Set