US Mint announcement on 2021 Dollars and Household limits to fight Bots
blu62vette
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Mint Announces New Morgan & Peace Pre-Order Dates to Address BOT Traffic
New Eagle Silver & Gold Launch First; Household Order Limits Reduced.
During the initial pre-order window for the Morgan & Peace Dollars, the Mint experienced an extraordinarily high volume of BOT traffic. These BOTs were programmed to conduct technology-driven transactions which caused significant interference with many transactions by Mint customers.
To address the issue, the Mint paused the pre-order windows for the remaining Morgan and Peace products until the BOT issues could be resolved. The Mint has now identified a solution that we expect will mitigate most of the issues caused by BOT traffic. Although we are working diligently to put that solution in place, the launch dates for American Eagle Silver and Gold Coins will also be affected. To further increase the opportunity to purchase these high demand products, the Mint will also adjust the household order limits for the new American Eagle Silver and Gold Coins and the remaining Morgan and Peace silver dollars. While these steps will mitigate the impact of BOT traffic and improve overall access to these very popular products, the supply of silver still limits the U.S. Mint’s ability to completely satisfy demand. As a result, not everyone will be able to purchase the coins of their choice.
The revised launch schedules are presented below. Please note the decision to move the American Eagle Silver and Gold product launches ahead of the remaining Morgan and Peace pre-order windows. This decision was based on the Morgan and Peace products’ unavailability to ship until October. Moving up the American Eagle products creates the least disruption for our customers. Our intent is to greatly improve on our ability to deliver the utmost positive U.S. Mint experience that our customers deserve.
The launch dates for the newly-redesigned American Eagle Silver and Gold Coins are as follows:
American Eagle SILVER PROOF COIN - W (21EAN), originally scheduled to go on sale 7/1, will now go on sale 7/20 (Household Limit 3)
American Eagle GOLD PROOF 1 OZ (21EBN), GOLD PROOF 1/2 OZ (21ECN), GOLD PROOF 1/4 OZ. (21EDN), GOLD PROOF 1/10 OZ. (21EEN), and GOLD PROOF 4-COIN SET (21EFN), originally scheduled to go on sale 7/8, will now go on sale 7/29
American Eagle GOLD PROOF 1/10 OZ 2-COIN SET (NUMBERED COA) (21XK), originally scheduled to go on sale 7/29 will now go on sale 8/5 (Household Limit 1)
American Eagle SILVER PROOF COIN – S (21EMN), on sale date was moved up from 8/16 to 8/12 (Household Limit 3)
The pre-order windows for the remaining Morgan and Peace silver dollars are as follows:
Morgan Dollars - SF and D (21XF, 21XG) order window is now 8/3 - 8/17, (Household Limit 3)
Morgan Dollar Philly and Peace Dollar (21XE, 21XH) order window is now 8/10 – 8/24 (Household Limit 3)
The updated HHOL are as follows;
American Eagle SILVER PROOF COIN (W) - New Design – 21EAN, HHOL = 3
American Eagle GOLD PROOF 1/10 OZ 2-COIN SET (NUMBERED COA) – 21XK, HHOL = 1
American Eagle SILVER PROOF COIN (S) – 21EMN, HHOL= 3
American Eagle SILVER UNCIRCULATED (W) – 21EGN- HHOL = 3
Morgan Dollar (SF) – 21XF, HHOL = 3
Morgan Dollar (D) – 21XG, HHOL =
Morgan Dollar Philly – 21XE, HHOL = 3
Peace Dollar – 21XH, HHOL = 3
Comments
They increased the HHL on the gold from 1 to 3?
Bewildering
Sure helps with the credit card points.
I think he quoted it wrong. It does not say 3 limit on the gold in my email.
I am liking the new silver eagle designs. Definitely worth it I think since it's 1st generation of its design to hold, what do you think?
Glad they made the limit from 10 to 3. Like seriously 10 was nuts lol
I got this in a message a few minutes before the mint email, I edited to match the mint one.
Good catch @MsMorrisine
The HHL has nothing to do with the bots. You are reading it wrong or just stating it incorrectly.
Gee, maybe I’ll be more inclined to jump in a buy some- with in the hopes that it won’t as likely be an exercise in aggravation.
I like it.
Happy, humble, honored and proud recipient of the “You Suck” award 10/22/2014
This is their verbiage:
During the initial pre-order window for the Morgan & Peace Dollars, the Mint experienced an extraordinarily high volume of BOT traffic. These BOTs were programmed to conduct technology-driven transactions which caused significant interference with many transactions by Mint customers.
To address the issue, the Mint paused the pre-order windows for the remaining Morgan and Peace products until the BOT issues could be resolved. The Mint has now identified a solution that we expect will mitigate most of the issues caused by BOT traffic. Although we are working diligently to put that solution in place, the launch dates for American Eagle Silver and Gold Coins will also be affected. To further increase the opportunity to purchase these high demand products, the Mint will also adjust the household order limits for the new American Eagle Silver and Gold Coins and the remaining Morgan and Peace silver dollars. While these steps will mitigate the impact of BOT traffic and improve overall access to these very popular products, the supply of silver still limits the U.S. Mint’s ability to completely satisfy demand. As a result, not everyone will be able to purchase the coins of their choice.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Sounds like a lot of BS to me. Exactly what is their as yet undisclosed "solution" to the bots? More if those recapcha things where you have to pick from the selection of pictures? More lockouts?
They also worked in the silver availability thing as a reason why not everyone would get the coins they want. Not sure how that figures into things since they did not lower mintages.
Good to see the USM rectifying some problems. However, as one who has tired of the gimmicks and bloated prices, they can count me out of the game for the foreseeable future. I will stick to the secondary market for the products I desire. Works well most of the time without the aggravation all the while saving a lot of money, again most of the time.
The new Captcha-cha-cha will have 12 black squares, and you must pick the one that shows the inside of a tiger!
If nothing else, at least I have a shot (longer window) at obtaining a couple of the new design silver proofs, which initially had a HH limit of 25.
Exactly what is their as yet undisclosed "solution" to the bots? More if those recapcha things where you have to pick from the selection of pictures? More lockouts?
A mint representative will arrive at your home 30 minutes before the sale begins to observe your purchase. This will finally put an end to the Bot problem. Okay, there are some problems with that solution, not everyone will be at home! So don't worry, a rep will be assigned to you to track you wherever you are, in case you decide to purchase. Still no? Alright, fighting Bots with Bots solution: Computer/phone cameras will be activated during mint purchases to validate you are a living being. Big Brother will help you make a safe and happy purchase.
I’m glad they are at least trying something.
Completely agree. I too am no longer playing the Mint's games and will no longer buy from them. If a coin appeals to me, I will get it from a dealer. Yes, it costs more, but so does time, aggravation, and frustration. They can keep their little inefficient website, and the rest of you can enjoy playing their games with them. Ah, yes, the U.S. Mint - wholesale supplier for dealers, flippers, and bot enthusiasts!
Yes, and it does not connect the HHL to the bots. It says they've invested in an anti-bot solution. It then goes on to say "TO FURYHER INCREASE THE OPPORTUNITY TO PURCHASE.. the Mint will also adjust the household limit..." Completely separate from the bots.
I received the same email. I do not know what solution(s) they may be applying, but the email shows they are concerned, and possibly addressing the problems - I hope effectively. I only get involved once, maybe twice, a year for some special issue that interests me. Usually I do not succeed, however, I did succeed on the CC privy Morgan. Just lucky there. I will be watching for the success of their new system. Cheers, RickO
Interesting. Sounds like they are just spreading out the product release vice actually improving their backend software, I could be wrong.
Having a lower limit disincentives someone setting up a bot. For the proof silver eagle, is it worth it for flippers if you're only getting (3) per transaction instead of 25?
Not really. The issues isn't the HHL but the success rate of getting coins. Of course, it depends on the cost of bots. It seems to be worth it for the telemarketing bots selling extended car warranties. They must make thousands of phone calls before they hook anyone. The hit rate on the bots is much higher for the coins.
It costs $300 to $500 per year for sneaker bots. So, the incremental cost of having them buy coins is pretty much zero as I'm paying by the year and already presumably have my bot.
The sneaker bots can handle up to 500 simultaneous transactions. So that means, even at 3 per HHL, you could get up to 1500 coins if your bot is 100% successful.
The sneaker releases are often HHL of 1, after all.
The HHL is not an anti-bot technique. The software solution, whatever it is, is the anti-bot implementation.
https://vice.com/en/article/qj4gjm/how-sneaker-bots-snatched-up-all-the-ps5s-and-3080s
The Mint is concerned because they are getting very bad publicity all over. I am reading a lot in the coin publications I get. However, they shouldn't be concerned because it will not affect their business at all. With the bots and flippers clogging the system, there will still be quick sellouts of their products. It's the less popular coins that appeal to collectors that they need to worry about. Those coins may now be even harder to sell because the Mint is losing collectors rapidly. Just read the letters in those coin publications. But, the Mint can solve this dilemma by just issuing popular, high-demand (and perhaps low mintage) coins. Business has changed with the Mint, and it will continue to change.
"As a result, not everyone will be able to purchase the coins of their choice."
PCGS message boards after the coins sell out: "The mint's website is still broken."
https://qz.com/1940136/how-bots-are-buying-up-the-seasons-hottest-gifts-before-you-can/
Interestingly, the HH limits on enrollments hasn’t changed. I wonder if that’s an oversight.
Back to hoarding TP. I think we all will need some.
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Posting here about your plan and dislike for the mint over and over takes time and per your thinking costs money too. You could just re purpose that time to trying to get a coin from the mint and potentially avoid paying a markup. Many of us here got a coin when it was offered directly from the mint.
What are the mintages of these re tooled flipper dipper coins anyway? Anyone know?
In other words a temporary delay on their website crashing.
Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value. Zero. Voltaire. Ebay coinbowlllc
which coins specifically?
All of the ones in this thread... Do you work for the US MInt @MsMorrisine?
no I don't work for them
ASE - 300,000 - https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-ounce-silver-proof-coin-21EAN.html?cgid=https://forums.collectors.com/categories/u-s-coin-forum
2 coin set - 5,000 - https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-tenth-ounce-gold-two-coin-set-designer-edition-21XK.html?cgid=https://forums.collectors.com/categories/u-s-coin-forum
https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-ounce-gold-proof-coin-21EBN.html?cgid=https://forums.collectors.com/categories/u-s-coin-forum
Mintage Limit: 15,875
Product Limit: 5,625
https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-half-ounce-gold-proof-coin-21ECN.html?cgid=https://forums.collectors.com/categories/u-s-coin-forum
Mintage Limit: 12,250
Product Limit: 2,000
https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-quarter-ounce-gold-proof-coin-21EDN.html?cgid=https://forums.collectors.com/categories/u-s-coin-forum
Mintage Limit: 13,625
Product Limit: 3,375
https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-one-tenth-ounce-gold-proof-coin-21EEN.html?cgid=https://forums.collectors.com/categories/u-s-coin-forum
Mintage Limit: 20,250
Product Limit: 10,000
https://catalog.usmint.gov/american-eagle-2021-gold-proof-four-coin-set-21EFN.html?cgid=https://forums.collectors.com/categories/u-s-coin-forum
Product Limit: 10,250
The u s mint web site knows maybe 😂
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Mintages are available on the Mint website.
So how would an individual using a bot get around the billing and mailing address issue. From hearing of the cancellations on this board for minor discrepancies, it seems the mint is at least doing something in that regard. To do 500 transactions don't you also need to program 500 different email address, open the mint accounts, physical addresses, and payment information?
That is what the bots do. This is no different than sneakers. It's actually pretty easy to generate 500 email addresses and 500 addresses. They also spoof IP addresses to fool the anti-bot technology.
I don't know how they handle payment but I can think of ways that could work once you have 500 email addresses and 500 mailing addresses.
As far as the email addresses...that's simple - even Google allows you to add numbers to an e-mail address but have it only go to one e-mail address. https://medium.com/@liamhammett/make-infinite-gmail-addresses-for-one-inbox-ec7080de859d
As far as the physical address...just convert your single-family home into an apartment bldg with 500 apartments. (ex. 200 Main St, Apt 1, 200 Main St, Apt 2, etc...) The mailman doesn't care...he'll just deliver it all to 200 Main St!
Some credit cards offer their customers the ability to get a "virtual credit card" number that is directly connected to their main credit card number - I know that Citibank used to offer this.
BST references available on request
The ways to scam the system are truly amazing. And I'm sure this is common. That's why an individual collector who has no bots, wants to do things above board, and wants to buy one coin has very little chance and needs to rely on luck, timing, and good fortune.
I just checked. Citi still offer this feature.
Or you could buy a bot
Given the nefarious purpose of bots, how could you be sure the software was not also harvesting your data, credit cards, passwords, etc.?
Not all bots are nefarious. You probably use bots yourself, or your wife, if you ever used one of those price shopping sites. Or a sale notification site.
And if bots were harvesting, the sneaker people would all be broke.
I'm wondering what the next e-mail from PFS buyers club is going to look like...with the new limits/rules.
BST references available on request
I have been pretty lucky just sitting here and clicking through the process during hot mint releases without any assisting technology. I don't have an army of people trying to get them for me or 10 different devices refreshing the site, just me and my cell phone with a single browser window. Have gotten 1 of just about everything I've tried for.
My worry is that whatever they implement is going to backfire and make it even less likely for an average collector to get a coin. E.g. a random lottery after entering a waiting room - those who figure out how to enter as 100 unique users have 100x the chance vs an average person trying to play fair with a single account.
They should be smarter about identifying household orders. You get one with a bot? ok. But 1 each to 50 different fictional apartments with the same street adress? Come on.
Instagram
You don't need 50 different fictional addresses. There are buyers clubs. You can have 50 legitimate mail drop addresses, etc.
Whatever the mechanisms are to defeat the system, the spirit of the household limits is to limit the number of purchases per household... I assume the intent is to distribute hot items to the greatest number of collectors, and discourage resellers.
So the average collector playing by the rules will try to get thir fair share according to the HHL, while resellers will try to circumvent it.
I am not proposing a solution I'm just saying that a fair process would enforce the household limits effectively.
Instagram
Why yes US Mint...I live in Apt 37B on 200 Main Street, Anytown, USA...
BST references available on request
They need to quit changing to no limit on day 2.
And if I legitimately want one for each of my 4 grandchildren?
And suppose I legitimately have access to 300 different households? Or 300 people willing to buy one to flip to me?
If I post a buy of $500 each on these, I guarantee there will be hundreds of people willing to sell to me. That doesn't violate the spirit or the letter of the law. It will push up the price I charge to people shut out from the Mint.
HHL do not decrease the number of coins in dealers' hands, they just push up the price on the secondary market.
“ And suppose I legitimately have access to 300 different households? Or 300 people willing to buy one to flip to me?”
If those three hundred households all got one and gave or sold to you which is your second scenario there would be no violation of spirit or letter of the law so to speak. If you made up 300 households…you already know the answer
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