@CaptHenway said:
Announce that you are going to accept every order received in the first 24 hours and strike to demand, less the orders where the credit cards bounce or whatever. End of speculation.
You could, but that will hurt sales in the long run.
You also would have to make order cancelation or returns forbidden. Otherwise you will still have speculators.
And how many people don't troll the Mint website waiting for releases. You are locking out the casual collectors who pick them up later.
Agreed. Returns for defects only and they are replaced by another coin. No cancellations.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@jmlanzaf said:
And how many people don't troll the Mint website waiting for releases. You are locking out the casual collectors who pick them up later.
People are looking for ways to improve their chances of getting the coins, not for ways to improve other people's chances.
@jmlanzaf said:
And how many people don't troll the Mint website waiting for releases. You are locking out the casual collectors who pick them up later.
People are looking for ways to improve their chances of getting the coins, not for ways to improve other people's chances.
@jessewvu said:
Perhaps they should just have random releases at random times of the day, random days of the year. That should confuse enough folks and have us give up all hope.
For the people on this forum? I doubt it. They will just be glued to their computers 24 hours a day and keep hitting refresh. Not too much different from what happens now.
Are there people who seem to be saying that I shouldn’t want the coin enjoy the rarity of limited mintage and feel good about having a coin worth 400.00 that I paid 85.00 for and still be a simple collector. Flipping fine enjoying my simple score fine. It’s collecting to me and just can’t find a problem with it Please JML or captain or any of the old timers. What is your opinion? ( 400.00 estimate for ase WW2 privy as example)
Disclaimer: I didn't read the four pages of commentary.
I will simply note that the us mint continues to screw up, but at least they are trying. I dumped the mint years ago after several fiascos - I am free!
Think of all the time you will save by not reading threads like this or wasting your time buying coins on the mint website. If you really like an issue (I have liked exactly none the last few years), just buy it after the dust settles.
JMHO
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
Apples and oranges. In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors that want one can get one. The various strategies to get around those limitations are violating the spirit of those limitations.
Wrong! It’s not an individual limit, it’s a household limit. If I had 10 coin collectors in my house and we all wanted to order a coin with a household order limit of 10, we would be screwed and could either end up with 1 each or 0 if another member in our house ordered 10 for themselves.
The us mint could not care less what you do with your coins once purchased. They certainly aren’t going to tell you that need to check to see if the individual you will be selling a coin to has more coins in their possession than permitted.
There is equal opportunity, not equal outcome. I’ll just leave it at that.
A distinction without a meaningful difference. Whether it’s an individual or a household the purpose of the limit is to give those that would like to buy the coin a chance to buy them from the Mint directly at a fair market price (cost of silver and processing) rather than the coins end up being hoarded are prices jacked up based on an artificially manipulated shortage of supply.
This isn’t rocket science. Anyone with a little common sense understands why the Mint is limiting the supply to a household. The more individuals that have easy access to purchasing the coins directly at $85 the more interest may be generated in collecting in general. That’s versus individuals hoarding them and demanding $200 to buy one. Scams to get around this limit violate the spirit of why the household limit is being put in place.
I asked my wife, that has no interest or knowledge of collecting, a simple question. I explained that the Mint was minting a limited number of a special coin and asked her why the Mint was limiting the number of coins per household? Her answer was “so more people would have a chance to purchase the coin.”
Come on folks. Don’t beat around the bush. You know exactly why the Mint instituted the limit and no creative scheme to get around that limit passes the smell test.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
Apples and oranges. In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors that want one can get one. The various strategies to get around those limitations are violating the spirit of those limitations.
Wrong! It’s not an individual limit, it’s a household limit. If I had 10 coin collectors in my house and we all wanted to order a coin with a household order limit of 10, we would be screwed and could either end up with 1 each or 0 if another member in our house ordered 10 for themselves.
The us mint could not care less what you do with your coins once purchased. They certainly aren’t going to tell you that need to check to see if the individual you will be selling a coin to has more coins in their possession than permitted.
There is equal opportunity, not equal outcome. I’ll just leave it at that.
And if the Mint really cared about as many collectors as wanted the coins could get them, it would do away with limited mintages.
Baloney! The Mint has plenty of other things on its plate to accomplish than making an unlimited supply of one particular commemorative coin. There is no mystery as to why they put a household limit in place.
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@pmh1nic said:
In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors that want one can get one.
In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors people that want one can get one.
FIFY
All collectors have to start somewhere. Where does a person cross the line from being a person to becoming a collector?
The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
@Mgarmy said:
Where is the line crypto? Coin shops flip as a business, no harm there right? What about guys who buy one series in demand so they can upgrade the series they do collect, is that where the line is drawn, or is it, where I tend to come down on, the sacks that have no interest in coins and use bots? I hesitate to paint all with the same brush.
You have a good point and I would say coin shops do flip but they provide value to collectors on the buy and sell side by presenting inventory and providing liquidity to collectors collections.
Flippers just rush to constrict supply and gobble up access be they coins, cars, tickets or any other basic offering. The collectors could buy from the mint directly if not for the flippers. That is an access play and not a value one. Is it legal, of course. Is the worst thing ever no. Markets need sucker fish to clean the gravel at the bottom of the tank, just don’t pretend you are a show fish or that you are doing anyone a favor.
I don’t pretend that my words would persuade anyone to cut out the habit, I just like reminding them their breath smells like the stuff at the bottom of the tank and they are beneath most of the other fish. They deserve that for every father inlaw who collects modern mint stuff and never seems to get the good stuff.
Thank God I'm a dealer and not a flipper, otherwise I'd be at the bottom of the tank. I wonder if the forum members who flipped, even to me, are thrilled with that characterization.
I fully support the Mint raising their prices to prevent this lost revenue.
I still don't see it that the mint couldn't do an HHL and two day release with any orders coming within that period being a bad thing at all. The mintage would probably be somewhat limited and the "flipperitis" would calm a bit.
As a collector I would be all for it, I am sure flippers would howl.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
@7Jaguars said:
I still don't see it that the mint couldn't do an HHL and two day release with any orders coming within that period being a bad thing at all. The mintage would probably be somewhat limited and the "flipperitis" would calm a bit.
As a collector I would be all for it, I am sure flippers would howl.
I'm confused. Are you saying unlimited mintages?
If you want to just have a 2 day order period, why do you need an HHL? If you have an HHL, why do you need just a 2 day order period?
The mint has to have published mintages. They have to advertise their products. But if it was all mail order only and no online ordering for certain products ( which would cost more to the consumer ) It might level the playing field a little...
@thebigeng said:
The mint has to have published mintages. They have to advertise their products. But if it was all mail order only and no online ordering for certain products ( which would cost more to the consumer ) It might level the playing field a little...
"Mail order only" ?? Seriously? That's like taking a huge leap backwards. Precomputer age. Gotta stamp? Perhaps for payment, the mint will only take certified bank cheques. But you do have a point: that would squash the bots.
so, are we all good with backing up the truck when/if the mint removes HHL on items or is that still frowned upon because some folks still might miss the offerings?
@7Jaguars said:
I am saying the two stricture points would be time and HHL. Therefore we would have some degree of mintage limiting and still root out flippers.
People think "flippers" are bigger operations than they are. Most flippers are just flipping the HHL. A buyer's club posts a buy number like +$50, the minions go out and buy what they can and sell them to PFS or whomever for the +$50. That's why a smaller HHL can actually have the opposite effect. If a big dealer wants to slab a couple hundred coins, it is going to be harder for them to buy them so they post a higher Bid. The higher Bid encourages more buyer's club patrons to jump in for the guaranteed money.
Ya know another issue is, they should plaster the 'new' release on the front page. Having to click multiple layers, multiple times, after getting kicked out, takes up time and wasted clicks and server resources.
@goldbuffalo said:
Ya know another issue is, they should plaster the 'new' release on the front page. Having to click multiple layers, multiple times, after getting kicked out, takes up time and wasted clicks and server resources.
@JeffM said:
I think the Mint should only accept orders made via telegram. Makes sense, plus it would support Western Union.
We should be required to show up at the Mint gift shop. That'll slow down the buyer's clubs.
See JFK Gold debacle...
Absolutely a debacle. Call out for casting and actors on FB by large dealers to stand in line to purchase for them.
Personally experienced at Phila mint shop on day of release. Hundreds or more on line, the people in front of me had no idea of what they were to buy. Only that a guy in front of the line had preloaded “gift” “debit” cards for the purchase amount; and walked up to pay alongside them. They promptly took the item and paid the line stander a small fee.
The USM that day should have dismissed all those characters playing that game, unless you had a payment in cash or card in YOUR name. That would have trashed 2/3 of the line.
I say go with a lottery. 1 entry per address. No P.O. Boxes. Physical addresses only. No returns.
You would have to work out the lottery details but one detail should be you are a current USM customer with at least one purchase in the last “x” year(s).
@coiner said:
I say go with a lottery. 1 entry per address. No P.O. Boxes. Physical addresses only. No returns.
You would have to work out the lottery details but one detail should be you are a current USM customer with at least one purchase in the last “x” year(s).
So that the police widow can't buy the law enforcement medal?
The mint should hold a contest to suggest new ordering rules, with all the people who suggest the rules they end up adopting being prevented from ordering until everybody else has had a chance to order.
@JeffM said:
I still like the idea of mint to order for the first 2 days of a release.
And that is not good for Mint business, as previously discussed.
I still like the idea of holding an auction. Then anyone who wants to pay $250 can definitely get one. Win. Win.
Game on. I would definitely pay $200 to $250 to get the Morgan and Peace dollars. Most likely, I'll be paying that anyway from a vendor if and when they decide to put them on pre-order sale.
I haven't commented much, but my thoughts are this: continue on as it has been, with the possible exception of increasing the server capacity. If they mint to demand, there would be no key coins that people want to collect. No true collector wants that if they are honest with themselves. I do not use bots, and am usually able to get at least household minimums of each release, not counting the gold V75 coins. BUT, I enjoyed going after those! With these latest morgans, I was able to buy houshold limits of both coins on two different accounts, plus get an extra 10 on a third account. I do not have any fancy set ups or super highspeed internet. I just kept trying. So most normal collectors had plenty of chance to get what they wanted. Oh, and one order is probably getting canceled because of the mint error where it did not attach my credit card to the order for some reason. That was the first time I've seen that happen.
@coiner said:
I say go with a lottery. 1 entry per address. No P.O. Boxes. Physical addresses only. No returns.
You would have to work out the lottery details but one detail should be you are a current USM customer with at least one purchase in the last “x” year(s).
I live like others in an area with no delivery only PO Box. What about us?
I’m curious if the big 10 get their allotments earlier and start the clock…. It would be super swell if the us mint shipped all the coins within 1 week. It’s not like they don’t have enough time to do the prep.
Comments
Agreed. Returns for defects only and they are replaced by another coin. No cancellations.
People are looking for ways to improve their chances of getting the coins, not for ways to improve other people's chances.
Lol. Sorry, I forgot.
For the people on this forum? I doubt it. They will just be glued to their computers 24 hours a day and keep hitting refresh. Not too much different from what happens now.
Are there people who seem to be saying that I shouldn’t want the coin enjoy the rarity of limited mintage and feel good about having a coin worth 400.00 that I paid 85.00 for and still be a simple collector. Flipping fine enjoying my simple score fine. It’s collecting to me and just can’t find a problem with it Please JML or captain or any of the old timers. What is your opinion? ( 400.00 estimate for ase WW2 privy as example)
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
Disclaimer: I didn't read the four pages of commentary.
I will simply note that the us mint continues to screw up, but at least they are trying. I dumped the mint years ago after several fiascos - I am free!
Think of all the time you will save by not reading threads like this or wasting your time buying coins on the mint website. If you really like an issue (I have liked exactly none the last few years), just buy it after the dust settles.
JMHO
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!
A distinction without a meaningful difference. Whether it’s an individual or a household the purpose of the limit is to give those that would like to buy the coin a chance to buy them from the Mint directly at a fair market price (cost of silver and processing) rather than the coins end up being hoarded are prices jacked up based on an artificially manipulated shortage of supply.
This isn’t rocket science. Anyone with a little common sense understands why the Mint is limiting the supply to a household. The more individuals that have easy access to purchasing the coins directly at $85 the more interest may be generated in collecting in general. That’s versus individuals hoarding them and demanding $200 to buy one. Scams to get around this limit violate the spirit of why the household limit is being put in place.
I asked my wife, that has no interest or knowledge of collecting, a simple question. I explained that the Mint was minting a limited number of a special coin and asked her why the Mint was limiting the number of coins per household? Her answer was “so more people would have a chance to purchase the coin.”
Come on folks. Don’t beat around the bush. You know exactly why the Mint instituted the limit and no creative scheme to get around that limit passes the smell test.
Baloney! The Mint has plenty of other things on its plate to accomplish than making an unlimited supply of one particular commemorative coin. There is no mystery as to why they put a household limit in place.
All collectors have to start somewhere. Where does a person cross the line from being a person to becoming a collector?
Actually it's the picture of a black cat eating licorice in a coal bin at midnight that you have to pick out.
You have a good point and I would say coin shops do flip but they provide value to collectors on the buy and sell side by presenting inventory and providing liquidity to collectors collections.
Flippers just rush to constrict supply and gobble up access be they coins, cars, tickets or any other basic offering. The collectors could buy from the mint directly if not for the flippers. That is an access play and not a value one. Is it legal, of course. Is the worst thing ever no. Markets need sucker fish to clean the gravel at the bottom of the tank, just don’t pretend you are a show fish or that you are doing anyone a favor.
I don’t pretend that my words would persuade anyone to cut out the habit, I just like reminding them their breath smells like the stuff at the bottom of the tank and they are beneath most of the other fish. They deserve that for every father inlaw who collects modern mint stuff and never seems to get the good stuff.
11.5$ Southern Dollars, The little “Big Easy” set
Thank God I'm a dealer and not a flipper, otherwise I'd be at the bottom of the tank. I wonder if the forum members who flipped, even to me, are thrilled with that characterization.
I fully support the Mint raising their prices to prevent this lost revenue.
Emotional intelligence
I still don't see it that the mint couldn't do an HHL and two day release with any orders coming within that period being a bad thing at all. The mintage would probably be somewhat limited and the "flipperitis" would calm a bit.
As a collector I would be all for it, I am sure flippers would howl.
Well, just Love coins, period.
if not for flipping these issues as they come up I wouldn’t have been able to afford the better pieces in my collection. I flip, and I collect.
I'm confused. Are you saying unlimited mintages?
If you want to just have a 2 day order period, why do you need an HHL? If you have an HHL, why do you need just a 2 day order period?
The mint has to have published mintages. They have to advertise their products. But if it was all mail order only and no online ordering for certain products ( which would cost more to the consumer ) It might level the playing field a little...
"Mail order only" ?? Seriously? That's like taking a huge leap backwards. Precomputer age. Gotta stamp? Perhaps for payment, the mint will only take certified bank cheques. But you do have a point: that would squash the bots.
Other retailers have updated their software to deal with bot ordering. It can be done.
Lets see if they can improve before resorting to drastic measures.
so, are we all good with backing up the truck when/if the mint removes HHL on items or is that still frowned upon because some folks still might miss the offerings?
I’ve already complained to them about the no HHL after day one
As it was and is there is no HHL on the CC and O right now. They took them off on day two
Why would anyone care about the removal of HHL after 24 hours?
I think the Mint should only accept orders made via telegram. Makes sense, plus it would support Western Union.
We should be required to show up at the Mint gift shop. That'll slow down the buyer's clubs.
I am saying the two stricture points would be time and HHL. Therefore we would have some degree of mintage limiting and still root out flippers.
Well, just Love coins, period.
no it won't
See JFK Gold debacle...
People think "flippers" are bigger operations than they are. Most flippers are just flipping the HHL. A buyer's club posts a buy number like +$50, the minions go out and buy what they can and sell them to PFS or whomever for the +$50. That's why a smaller HHL can actually have the opposite effect. If a big dealer wants to slab a couple hundred coins, it is going to be harder for them to buy them so they post a higher Bid. The higher Bid encourages more buyer's club patrons to jump in for the guaranteed money.
Ya know another issue is, they should plaster the 'new' release on the front page. Having to click multiple layers, multiple times, after getting kicked out, takes up time and wasted clicks and server resources.
save the page as a favorite a day before.
Absolutely a debacle. Call out for casting and actors on FB by large dealers to stand in line to purchase for them.
Personally experienced at Phila mint shop on day of release. Hundreds or more on line, the people in front of me had no idea of what they were to buy. Only that a guy in front of the line had preloaded “gift” “debit” cards for the purchase amount; and walked up to pay alongside them. They promptly took the item and paid the line stander a small fee.
The USM that day should have dismissed all those characters playing that game, unless you had a payment in cash or card in YOUR name. That would have trashed 2/3 of the line.
I say go with a lottery. 1 entry per address. No P.O. Boxes. Physical addresses only. No returns.
You would have to work out the lottery details but one detail should be you are a current USM customer with at least one purchase in the last “x” year(s).
So that the police widow can't buy the law enforcement medal?
Open the flood gates and let the best person/bot win.
Enjoy the game.
Either you don't realize that there are plenty of physical addresses that the post office won't deliver to or you don't care.
I still like the idea of mint to order for the first 2 days of a release.
And that is not good for Mint business, as previously discussed.
I still like the idea of holding an auction. Then anyone who wants to pay $250 can definitely get one. Win. Win.
The mint should hold a contest to suggest new ordering rules, with all the people who suggest the rules they end up adopting being prevented from ordering until everybody else has had a chance to order.
Game on. I would definitely pay $200 to $250 to get the Morgan and Peace dollars. Most likely, I'll be paying that anyway from a vendor if and when they decide to put them on pre-order sale.
I haven't commented much, but my thoughts are this: continue on as it has been, with the possible exception of increasing the server capacity. If they mint to demand, there would be no key coins that people want to collect. No true collector wants that if they are honest with themselves. I do not use bots, and am usually able to get at least household minimums of each release, not counting the gold V75 coins. BUT, I enjoyed going after those! With these latest morgans, I was able to buy houshold limits of both coins on two different accounts, plus get an extra 10 on a third account. I do not have any fancy set ups or super highspeed internet. I just kept trying. So most normal collectors had plenty of chance to get what they wanted. Oh, and one order is probably getting canceled because of the mint error where it did not attach my credit card to the order for some reason. That was the first time I've seen that happen.
I live like others in an area with no delivery only PO Box. What about us?
🎶 shout shout, let it all out 🎶
I am really wondering if the ordering fiasco will impact the number of first strike or first day of issue coins getting graded.
I think there are going to be a lot of issues from the ordering fiasco. I would be surprised if there aren't a large number of order cancelations.
I don't know what they are using for FDOI. 1st strike could also be interesting if the shipping isn't all at once for the entire mintage.
I’m curious if the big 10 get their allotments earlier and start the clock…. It would be super swell if the us mint shipped all the coins within 1 week. It’s not like they don’t have enough time to do the prep.