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US Mint announcement on 2021 Dollars and Household limits to fight Bots

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  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pmh1nic said:
    Your scenario ends up with one individual intentionally manipulating the system (in concert with a host of other individuals that have no interest in collecting the coins) hoard them.

    Flippers don't hoard coins, they resell them to others. You know... like people who have jobs that don't allow them the time to sit at the computer and order the coins for their collections themselves.

  • MgarmyMgarmy Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2021 9:43AM

    But not like the flippers who obviously can sit in Front of their computers and pay others to do so. So there is that but again, no issues with those that play fair. It is the ones that cheat and then brag that are the scumbags

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  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    You guys pay for bots? Why not just grab the source code and make your own :)

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jessewvu said:
    They should go to biometrics. Other than the privacy police throwing up their hands, a simple fingerprint or face scan from a smart phone would solve the problem pretty quick for sure. Folks that don’t have it can call in 😉

    They need to use the technology that currently exists.

    Actually, some of the bit farms apparently have humans who are hired specifically to defeat things like captcha.> @3stars said:

    You guys pay for bots? Why not just grab the source code and make your own :)

    Cheaper to buy it. You need to spoof IP addresses, have AI built in to handle anti-bot tools, etc.

  • MgarmyMgarmy Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @3stars said:
    You guys pay for bots? Why not just grab the source code and make your own :)

    I wish I had learned that skill! Cyber guys are making bank in my part of the country

    100% positive transactions with SurfinxHI, bigole, 1madman, collectorcoins, proofmorgan, Luke Marshall, silver pop, golden egg, point five zero,coin22lover, alohagary, blaircountycoin,joebb21

  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mgarmy said:

    @3stars said:
    You guys pay for bots? Why not just grab the source code and make your own :)

    I wish I had learned that skill! Cyber guys are making bank in my part of the country

    They aren't the ones wasting time on making a few bucks on Mint issues I'm guessing.

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • MgarmyMgarmy Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nope CND/CNA but they know how I am sure

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  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @3stars said:

    @Mgarmy said:

    @3stars said:
    You guys pay for bots? Why not just grab the source code and make your own :)

    I wish I had learned that skill! Cyber guys are making bank in my part of the country

    They aren't the ones wasting time on making a few bucks on Mint issues I'm guessing.

    Actually, if you read one of those articles I posted, the guy is a software engineer and half his income comes from his bot activities. This includes a blog and things as well as $30,000 per year in profit on goods purchased and resold, sneakers and consoles I think.

  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    $30k, wow, tell me more...

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @3stars said:
    $30k, wow, tell me more...

    Read it yourself. As a software engineer, his salary is really $100k+. That means he's making another $100k of his bot activities. I know that's chump change to a prince like yourself. But that's real money to one or two of us.

  • 3stars3stars Posts: 2,294 ✭✭✭✭✭

    now it's $100k off of bot activities. At least its a growth industry.

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin, goldman86, dmarks, Type2
  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @3stars said:
    now it's $100k off of bot activities. At least its a growth industry.

    Read all the words. I said he made $30k selling merchandise along with his other bot activities which included a blog.

    Reading is fundamental. It is never too late to learn.

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,343 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mgarmy said:
    I lean toward your position however it would be impossible to know the minds of the 300

    You don’t need to guess at the intention given the statement “willing to buy one to flip to me”.

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • CryptoCrypto Posts: 3,867 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 24, 2021 3:00PM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Crypto said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @nags said:
    Having a lower limit disincentives someone setting up a bot. For the proof silver eagle, is it worth it for flippers if you're only getting (3) per transaction instead of 25?

    Not really. The issues isn't the HHL but the success rate of getting coins. Of course, it depends on the cost of bots. It seems to be worth it for the telemarketing bots selling extended car warranties. They must make thousands of phone calls before they hook anyone. The hit rate on the bots is much higher for the coins.

    It costs $300 to $500 per year for sneaker bots. So, the incremental cost of having them buy coins is pretty much zero as I'm paying by the year and already presumably have my bot.

    The sneaker bots can handle up to 500 simultaneous transactions. So that means, even at 3 per HHL, you could get up to 1500 coins if your bot is 100% successful.

    The sneaker releases are often HHL of 1, after all.

    The HHL is not an anti-bot technique. The software solution, whatever it is, is the anti-bot implementation.

    You sound like part of the problem

    Really? Because I discussed the nature of the bots. What exactly did I say that makes me part of the problem?

    I don't own a bot. I don't want a bot. I just ran the numbers on the bots. I don't even use sniping software which is, of course, a bot.

    Of course, after this ridiculous accusation based on nothing whatsoever, I am hoping that you are routed by bots.

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @3stars said:
    $30k, wow, tell me more...

    Read it yourself. As a software engineer, his salary is really $100k+. That means he's making another $100k of his bot activities. I know that's chump change to a prince like yourself. But that's real money to one or two of us.

    Or flippers could figure a way to provide real value to society and get compensated accordingly and respected. But you do you

  • MgarmyMgarmy Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Where is the line crypto? Coin shops flip as a business, no harm there right? What about guys who buy one series in demand so they can upgrade the series they do collect, is that where the line is drawn, or is it, where I tend to come down on, the sacks that have no interest in coins and use bots? I hesitate to paint all with the same brush.

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  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Crypto said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Crypto said:

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @nags said:
    Having a lower limit disincentives someone setting up a bot. For the proof silver eagle, is it worth it for flippers if you're only getting (3) per transaction instead of 25?

    Not really. The issues isn't the HHL but the success rate of getting coins. Of course, it depends on the cost of bots. It seems to be worth it for the telemarketing bots selling extended car warranties. They must make thousands of phone calls before they hook anyone. The hit rate on the bots is much higher for the coins.

    It costs $300 to $500 per year for sneaker bots. So, the incremental cost of having them buy coins is pretty much zero as I'm paying by the year and already presumably have my bot.

    The sneaker bots can handle up to 500 simultaneous transactions. So that means, even at 3 per HHL, you could get up to 1500 coins if your bot is 100% successful.

    The sneaker releases are often HHL of 1, after all.

    The HHL is not an anti-bot technique. The software solution, whatever it is, is the anti-bot implementation.

    You sound like part of the problem

    Really? Because I discussed the nature of the bots. What exactly did I say that makes me part of the problem?

    I don't own a bot. I don't want a bot. I just ran the numbers on the bots. I don't even use sniping software which is, of course, a bot.

    Of course, after this ridiculous accusation based on nothing whatsoever, I am hoping that you are routed by bots.

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @3stars said:
    $30k, wow, tell me more...

    Read it yourself. As a software engineer, his salary is really $100k+. That means he's making another $100k of his bot activities. I know that's chump change to a prince like yourself. But that's real money to one or two of us.

    Or flippers could figure a way to provide real value to society and get compensated accordingly and respected. But you do you

    I teach college. I flip for fun and profit. I also took the time to try to help us get educated on bots and how they work. That's me doing me.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Hmmm...never pays to be honest.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    How about when I bought a hundred 2017 Enhanced Uncirculated Coin sets - which never actually sold out at the Mint since they never hit the maximum mintage - and broke them up to sell singles to people who collected individual series.

    Could someone help me with the ethics of that? Thanks in advance.

    What about if I buy 100 silver eagles and send them out to be slabbed and then "flip" the coins to the collectors who want to buy an already slabbed 69 or 70?

    Could someone help me with the ethics of that? Thanks, again.

    What if I only buy one coin and I keep it, but it's the last one and Crypto wanted it?

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    How about when I bought a hundred 2017 Enhanced Uncirculated Coin sets - which never actually sold out at the Mint since they never hit the maximum mintage - and broke them up to sell singles to people who collected individual series.

    Could someone help me with the ethics of that?

    No good deed goes unpunished.

  • pmh1nicpmh1nic Posts: 3,343 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    How about when I bought a hundred 2017 Enhanced Uncirculated Coin sets - which never actually sold out at the Mint since they never hit the maximum mintage - and broke them up to sell singles to people who collected individual series.

    Could someone help me with the ethics of that? Thanks in advance.

    What about if I buy 100 silver eagles and send them out to be slabbed and then "flip" the coins to the collectors who want to buy an already slabbed 69 or 70?

    Could someone help me with the ethics of that? Thanks, again.

    What if I only buy one coin and I keep it, but it's the last one and Crypto wanted it?

    Apples and oranges. In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors that want one can get one. The various strategies to get around those limitations are violating the spirit of those limitations. If at the end of some time period the coins don’t sell out then it’s open season to buy as many as you want to flip them. Buying left over mints sets to crack and sell coins is a totally different situation.

    The longer I live the more convincing proofs I see of this truth, that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without His notice is it possible for an empire to rise without His aid? Benjamin Franklin
  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 7,392 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Oh, thanks @metroD I got my questions answered earlier, no need for all that.

  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Apples and oranges. In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors that want one can get one. The various strategies to get around those limitations are violating the spirit of those limitations.

    Wrong! It’s not an individual limit, it’s a household limit. If I had 10 coin collectors in my house and we all wanted to order a coin with a household order limit of 10, we would be screwed and could either end up with 1 each or 0 if another member in our house ordered 10 for themselves.

    The us mint could not care less what you do with your coins once purchased. They certainly aren’t going to tell you that need to check to see if the individual you will be selling a coin to has more coins in their possession than permitted.

    There is equal opportunity, not equal outcome. I’ll just leave it at that.

  • MFeldMFeld Posts: 14,834 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jessewvu said:

    Apples and oranges. In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors that want one can get one. The various strategies to get around those limitations are violating the spirit of those limitations.

    Wrong! It’s not an individual limit, it’s a household limit. If I had 10 coin collectors in my house and we all wanted to order a coin with a household order limit of 10, we would be screwed and could either end up with 1 each or 0 if another member in our house ordered 10 for themselves.

    The us mint could not care less what you do with your coins once purchased. They certainly aren’t going to tell you that need to check to see if the individual you will be selling a coin to has more coins in their possession than permitted.

    There is equal opportunity, not equal outcome. I’ll just leave it at that.

    And if the Mint really cared about as many collectors as wanted the coins could get them, it would do away with limited mintages.

    Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pmh1nic a hundred 2017 Enhanced Uncirculated Coin sets - which never actually sold out at the Mint since they never hit the maximum mintage - and broke them up to sell singles to people who collected individual series.

    Could someone help me with the

    Could someone help me with the ethics of that? Thanks, again.

    What if I only buy one coin and I keep it, but it's the last one and Crypto wanted it?

    Apples and oranges. In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors that want one can get one. The various strategies to get around those limitations are violating the spirit of those limitations. If at the end of some time period the coins don’t sell out then it’s open season to buy as many as you want to flip them. Buying left over mints sets to crack and sell coins is a totally different situation.

    In the cases listed, this was also true. But crypto was condemning flipping not violating HHL.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @pmh1nic said:
    In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors that want one can get one.

    In this cases the Mint is intentionally limiting the number of coins per individual so that as many collectors people that want one can get one.

    FIFY :)

  • derrybderryb Posts: 37,619 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2021 6:46AM

    Hasn't the Mint heard of reCAPTCHA?

    No Way Out: Stimulus and Money Printing Are the Only Path Left

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    @jessewvu said:

    And if the Mint really cared about as many collectors as wanted the coins could get them, it would do away with limited mintages.

    This is true. Of course, unlimited mintages are a Faustian bargain. With unlimited mintages, there is no secondary market value and people stop buying them because they don't want to lose money.

    The Mint needs the illusion of rarity. They actually end up selling more coins. How many "collectors" buy an extra or two either to flip or to put away to speculate on future value? They don't buy those extra if there's an unlimited mintage.

  • MetroDMetroD Posts: 2,374 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @thebigeng said:
    Oh, thanks @metroD I got my questions answered earlier, no need for all that.

    Thanks for the response.

    Looking up the information on the Mint's website is really not that complicated. (If I can do it, anyone can.) It just appears complex because my instructions were detailed enough to enable a 1st time user to orient themselves. Once you get acquainted, the process of viewing the entire "product schedule" for a given year takes mere seconds.

    Going forward, at least you have the option of accessing the data yourself, should you be interested. :)

  • rip_frip_f Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭

    @MFeld said:

    And if the Mint really cared about as many collectors as wanted the coins could get them, it would do away with limited mintages.

    Or still have limited mintages, but just don't publish the mintage in advance.
    Without the guaranteed profit, the buyers clubs wouldn't take the risk.

  • cagcrispcagcrisp Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rip_f said:

    @MFeld said:

    And if the Mint really cared about as many collectors as wanted the coins could get them, it would do away with limited mintages.

    Or still have limited mintages, but just don't publish the mintage in advance.
    Without the guaranteed profit, the buyers clubs wouldn't take the risk.

    "just don't publish the mintage in advance"

    That equates to Less Transparency
    Less Transparency equates to Insider Information
    Insider Information equates to Big Boys knowing the mintage in advance and everyone else not knowing...

  • MgarmyMgarmy Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Just like Congress😁

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  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @derryb said:
    Hasn't the Mint heard of reCAPTCHA?

    You may have forgotten, but they used it for the Type 1 ASE - adding to our frustration.

    Bots aren't fooled by simple reCAPTCHA.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rip_f said:

    @MFeld said:

    And if the Mint really cared about as many collectors as wanted the coins could get them, it would do away with limited mintages.

    Or still have limited mintages, but just don't publish the mintage in advance.
    Without the guaranteed profit, the buyers clubs wouldn't take the risk.

    You can keep posting this non-solution but it doesn't get better with age.

    If Apmex or PFS or anyone else posts a pre-sale buy, the buyers clubs know what the minimum guaranteed profit is before they even warm up their bots.

    And when you assume the mintage will be high so you don't rush to your computer to buy one and find out it sold out in 20 minutes, will you be applauding the hidden rarity that you missed?

    You also can't really have such secrets as some of the mintages are in the enabling legislation and not at the whim of the Mint. For example, see https://congress.gov/115/plaws/publ343/PLAW-115publ343.pdf

    or

    https://congress.gov/116/plaws/publ71/PLAW-116publ71.pdf

    For more information, see this:

    https://fas.org/sgp/crs/misc/R44623.pdf

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2021 7:33AM

    @cagcrisp said:

    @rip_f said:

    @MFeld said:

    And if the Mint really cared about as many collectors as wanted the coins could get them, it would do away with limited mintages.

    Or still have limited mintages, but just don't publish the mintage in advance.
    Without the guaranteed profit, the buyers clubs wouldn't take the risk.

    "just don't publish the mintage in advance"

    That equates to Less Transparency
    Less Transparency equates to Insider Information
    Insider Information equates to Big Boys knowing the mintage in advance and everyone else not knowing...

    @Mgarmy said:
    Just like Congress😁

    Congress determines some of these mintages in the enabling legislation. See the links I posted above.

  • MgarmyMgarmy Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The Congress bit was on the insider trading angle JM, not authorization for coin mintages

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  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mgarmy said:
    The Congress bit was on the insider trading angle JM, not authorization for coin mintages

    There's nothing more "inside" than actually being the one to determine the mintages.

  • MgarmyMgarmy Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Is it insider training if the information is made public prior to release…no it is not.
    As having access to confidential information which is not avl to the public would be key. Once made public prior to sale…

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  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Mgarmy said:
    Is it insider training if the information is made public prior to release…no it is not.
    As having access to confidential information which is not avl to the public would be key. Once made public prior to sale…

    Of course that's true. It was meant as a joke.

  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @MFeld said:

    @jessewvu said:

    And if the Mint really cared about as many collectors as wanted the coins could get them, it would do away with limited mintages.

    This is true. Of course, unlimited mintages are a Faustian bargain. With unlimited mintages, there is no secondary market value and people stop buying them because they don't want to lose money.

    The Mint needs the illusion of rarity. They actually end up selling more coins. How many "collectors" buy an extra or two either to flip or to put away to speculate on future value? They don't buy those extra if there's an unlimited mintage.

    Yes, I would think Mint wants the production runs on specified items to have perceived and real value with price appreciation. This should keep potential buyers interested long term.

  • rip_frip_f Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Congress determines some of these mintages in the enabling legislation. See the links I posted above.

    All your references are for commemoratives. That type of coin legislation is specific and is mostly cut-and-pasted from one year to the next. The Mint has discretion on mintage as part of their marketing strategy for their special coins.

    The Mint's mission statement - which I'm trying to help them abide by - can most simply be achieved by taking the guaranteed profit out of the decision to buy, thus eliminating the non-numismatic actors, and thus avoiding the chaos.

    I hope all of the paranoia and suspicion of the Mint's integrity being implied here is taken by the Mint as a challenge - and will reinforce my suggestion to them.

  • MasonGMasonG Posts: 6,262 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @rip_f said:
    The Mint's mission statement - which I'm trying to help them abide by - can most simply be achieved by taking the guaranteed profit out of the decision to buy, thus eliminating the non-numismatic actors, and thus avoiding the chaos.

    That's interesting. Where does the mint's mission mention "non-numismatic actors"? I looked at the mint's website and this is what I found:

    "The mission of the U.S. Mint is to serve the American people by manufacturing and distributing circulating, precious metal and collectible coins and national medals..."

  • SilverProofQuarter1883SilverProofQuarter1883 Posts: 1,875 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cool, makes it easier for me to get the 2021 .peace

  • cagcrispcagcrisp Posts: 1,059 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Exact wording from the United States Mint: “In order for the United States Mint to cover rising costs, meet its fiduciary responsibility to operate at no net cost to taxpayers, and return money to the Treasury General Fund…”

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2021 10:20AM

    @rip_f said:

    @jmlanzaf said:
    Congress determines some of these mintages in the enabling legislation. See the links I posted above.

    All your references are for commemoratives. That type of coin legislation is specific and is mostly cut-and-pasted from one year to the next. The Mint has discretion on mintage as part of their marketing strategy for their special coins.

    The Mint's mission statement - which I'm trying to help them abide by - can most simply be achieved by taking the guaranteed profit out of the decision to buy, thus eliminating the non-numismatic actors, and thus avoiding the chaos.

    I hope all of the paranoia and suspicion of the Mint's integrity being implied here is taken by the Mint as a challenge - and will reinforce my suggestion to them.

    That's true, and so....

    The easiest way to eliminate flippers is to simply raise the price to the market value or auction the coins off. Of course you're afraid you'd have to pay full market value, so you'd rather have some secret mintage that is not in the Mint's best interest since it discourages purchases.

    The mint could also just stop issuing these special issues since they rarely make money on them anyway.

  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 32,710 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Announce that you are going to accept every order received in the first 24 hours and strike to demand, less the orders where the credit cards bounce or whatever. End of speculation.

    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • fathomfathom Posts: 1,876 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't think it's that easy when you have to contend with legislation, die production, bullion availability etc.

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 36,418 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Announce that you are going to accept every order received in the first 24 hours and strike to demand, less the orders where the credit cards bounce or whatever. End of speculation.

    You could, but that will hurt sales in the long run.

    You also would have to make order cancelation or returns forbidden. Otherwise you will still have speculators.

    And how many people don't troll the Mint website waiting for releases. You are locking out the casual collectors who pick them up later.

  • rip_frip_f Posts: 368 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2021 11:03AM

    I never said anything about eliminating the flippers.

    The proposal is that the public will not know the ultimate mintage.

    Anyone that knows the market well enough to see that a certain coin has the potential to be highly collectable will take a little risk and buy it. That's fine.
    Collectors and dealers who know the market will remember the couple coins a year that sells out unexpectedly and became winners. They'll be ready on day one to buy what they need.

    But it will introduce enough of a risk to dissuade those who need a guaranteed sure-thing to participate.
    Bots and hired hands may not be employed as much or at all if a few products don't sell out and they're stuck with them.

  • JeffMJeffM Posts: 587 ✭✭✭✭

    @CaptHenway said:
    Announce that you are going to accept every order received in the first 24 hours and strike to demand, less the orders where the credit cards bounce or whatever. End of speculation.

    I really like this idea. It would eliminate the clogging of the Mint's web site the minute the coin goes on sale, and it would allow anyone who can get onto the site in 24 hours to get a coin (or several based on the HHL, if any). Personally, I don't care what this would do to the flippers or future investment value of the coin. It makes sense to me.

  • jessewvujessewvu Posts: 5,065 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Perhaps they should just have random releases at random times of the day, random days of the year. That should confuse enough folks and have us give up all hope.

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