Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
When paying up that much for a common coin, where there’s no real comps and the market is truly auction-based (no floor, no ceiling)...you’d better get your enjoyment out of it while you own it, regardless of what you pay.
As for Laura’s comments, sounds like she’s at least trying to be real for the majority of her clientele. In this particular case, the seller probably should have put some effort into actually making the coin legendary while they owned it (displays, documentaries, YouTube features, I don’t know). It looks like after they bought it the rest of the market wasn’t cultivated to like it as much as they did. Gotta bring in that 3rd person if it’s going to auction well again.
On the other hand, of course, maybe it was just taking up too much space in their mansion and it was worth the $75k haircut to not have to store it anymore.
The coin is a joke and was auctioned through Legend for the astronomical price first time and stupid price the second go around. Legend should be embarrased for promoting the coin to stupid bidders and PCGS should be ashamed for the grade of MS67. As previous poster have pointed out this coin has a plethora of bag marks, some of which are partially hidden by the toning. As for the toning it looks like it's provenance might have been EDynamic who regularly has spectacular coins like this.
Funny that Laura is blaming the original bidder's passion for the coin. But possibly Legend Auctions hyped the coin really well to get not only a high bidder but an almost as high underbidder.
Legend should buy this coin back and offer it as an unreserved item on a future auction.......just to preserve their Golden Reputation. And PCGS should correctly re-grade the coin.
@Cougar1978 said:
Look at Pcgs 3000 many coins still down since 89 crash.
One should take into account the change in grades and the introduction of CAC when looking at this.
Classic Commems cheaper than 25 yr ago.
This is a consequence of the pump and dump strategy executed by the promoters.
ROFL - Do you have any bourse room experience? Have you ever analyzed pricing trends on Commems? Harry Laibstains book? Or conversed with major wholesaler in the biz since 1972? No I don’t think so.
What book have you written about changes in grading based on submission research. Have you got many upgrades on rattlers, ogh?
As far as a market on some coins somebody paid way way over CF / CPG that’s just a toner bubble universe not a market price / analysis like CPG, CF, NN Coin Market.
I would suggest reading Richard Giedroyc NN Coin Market at a Glance column. Now that’s a coin market analyst.
As far as CAC on that piece CPG is $467. So market distortion not to worry - just don’t overpay! That guy paid the 47 k on it buried too IMO. Sure some people pay insane money on toners but you have to find that person just like drawing that winning lottery ticket.
@Cougar1978 said:
Look at Pcgs 3000 many coins still down since 89 crash.
One should take into account the change in grades and the introduction of CAC when looking at this.
Classic Commems cheaper than 25 yr ago.
This is a consequence of the pump and dump strategy executed by the promoters.
ROFL - Do you have any bourse room experience? Have you ever analyzed pricing trends on Commems? Harry Laibstains book? No I don’t think so. And neither does a major wholesaler who has said the same thing who’s been in the business since 1972.
What book have you written about changes in grading? I don’t think you know what your talking about. I have submitted numerous rattlers, ogh and many came back same grade.
Do you know how to pick upgradable coins or how to upgrade coins?
Many coins were submitted multiple times, up to 30 times, to upgrade.
It was plain as day on a certain photo website. Go ahead and say it’s not the case when many have seen and discussed it already.
@OldIndianNutKase I was wondering when someone would bring up the toning.
I have been collecting toned Franklins for ~ 35 years now. While I certainly don't believe the Franklin is EDynamic toning (as it is not THAT garish) I do seriously wonder about the toning. It MAY be that in hand it doesn't look that "off", but from the TV image I'd say that toning is AT. Further, the toning colors are off for a P mint. The color components would fit for a 1958 D, but the look is way off. I will say, I have seen a variety of Franklins at major shows that have gotten serious grade bumps for having "outrageous" toning that IMO are AT, so I suspect there is AT LEAST one Dr. out there for Franklins.
“1000% PERFECT surfaces adorn both sides. Use a neutron microscope and you will find NO flaws of any size, any where.”
And PCGS grades the coin as MS67 despite many bag marks
And the coin's color could easily be .91 Questionable Color
One can easily conclude that Legend, in their auction description, misrepresented the coin. And PCGS probably committed a grading error at MS67.
I think the original buyer had reason to trust Legend's analysis, even though they said the coin was worth much less. But to an extent, an auction house cannot over inflate the value of an item they are selling. But to describe a coin as 1000% perfect, even with a neutron microscope, when that is obviously impossible, is very irresponsible. The original bidder can claim they he/she relied on Legend's opinion as to condition, if not to price.
Legend and PCGS both have culpability in this matter and should compensate the original bidder accordingly. This for the good of our business.
Perhaps @MFeld would offer his enlightened opinion of the auction description of this coin.
I think that auction participants have a right to an accurate "technical" description of a coin's attributes, not a BS sales description as a coin being 1000% of anything.
I have been collecting toned Franklins for ~ 35 years now. While I certainly don't believe the Franklin is EDynamic toning (as it is not THAT garish) I do seriously wonder about the toning. It MAY be that in hand it doesn't look that "off", but from the TV image I'd say that toning is AT. Further, the toning colors are off for a P mint. The color components would fit for a 1958 D, but the look is way off. I will say, I have seen a variety of Franklins at major shows that have gotten serious grade bumps for having "outrageous" toning that IMO are AT, so I suspect there is AT LEAST one Dr. out there for Franklins.
Interesting comment on a "Dr. Franklin" out there.
This one is QC, but when posted here a while back, at least one person said they could see this straight graded one day. This doesn't look like EDM toning to me, and neither does the OP coin.
Had the coin sold for 200k this time around, would we be calling the guy a genius? The selling price of 47k was still a significant premium to the book value. The market has spoken and now been echoed that the coin has significant value for what it is, there is just a moving target as to what that value may be.
Thinly traded high value items cannot always be predicted. Even coins like the 1804 dollar gain and lose value, and there haven't been any newly discovered lately.
The more frequently these things trade hands, the less rare they appear. It's interesting how this perception matters, even for people who have the rational understanding that supply has not changed.
There are collectors with deep pockets, and there are collectors who chase set status, and there are collectors who like colorful tarnish. That set of conditions, plus an auction bidding war, can produce results as occurred when this coin hit that (IMO) ridiculous price. I personally consider even the second price ridiculous. Of course, that is my opinion, and people are entitled to spend their money as they choose. Meanwhile, I will sit comfortably on my wallet and watch the show. Cheers, RickO
Well this doesn't come as a surprise since many of us on here felt the $130K buyer was buried. As having a thicker wallet in this hobby doesn't make anyone instantly a more knowledgeable collector. However I hope it does keep such a collector from rocking in a cradle position after taking a $80K+ loss? As I've witnessed average budget collectors leave this hobby after taking a substantially lesser loss.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
@Zoins said:
There's definitely something to be said for her advice.
Sure, but it is her choice to be flippant. "OUCH! I guess the thrill hunt was that great of an experience?" And on. Maybe it was? Maybe it was a complete disaster driven by hardship or a personal emergency? If I were the one she's calling out I'd take my business elsewhere the next time I spent or sold. Why give $ to people presenting your choices to the world as idiotic?
Because when your choices are indeed idiotic you deserve to be called out on them
...or pitched on the next coin.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
We unhesitatingly pronounce this the BEST and wildest 1958 Frankie in existence! EVERYTHING about this coin is mind boggling! EVERYTHING! 1000% PERFECT surfaces adorn both sides. Use a neutron microscope and you will find NO flaws of any size, any where.An intense luster nearly blinds you from all over. The color rivals ANY of the BEST Northern Lights coins-really! Electric shades of killer neon like violet/pearl green/raw blue explode all over the obverse in a sparkly way. The reverse has a killer mix of iridescent reddish rims, with phenomenal nearly neon like greenish gold centers. We rank the colors a 10+ on our 1-10 color scale we used for our North Lights coins. Do not just take our word on wild colors-see this coin. Also, ALL of the details are sharply struck. The eye appeal is outrageous! PCGS 18, NGC 4, CAC 20 (obviously resubs). The PCGS Population in MS67+ FBL is two, with NONE FINER; NGC has graded nothing finer than MS67 FBL. In the ENTIRE SERIES, none have been graded finer than MS67+ FBL. The current Collectors universe Value is $17,000. We can easily see this coin blowing past that long before the sale even starts. Again, we rank this coin as great as any of the top Northern Lights Dollars which sold for "beyond moon money." Be prepared! Cert. Number 35921630 PCGS # 86674
Anyone who would pay $129k for a Franklin is nuts. Hardly a legendary coin.
Just my eversohumble opinion.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
@OldIndianNutKase said:
The coin is a joke and was auctioned through Legend for the astronomical price first time and stupid price the second go around. Legend should be embarrased for promoting the coin to stupid bidders and PCGS should be ashamed for the grade of MS67. As previous poster have pointed out this coin has a plethora of bag marks, some of which are partially hidden by the toning. As for the toning it looks like it's provenance might have been EDynamic who regularly has spectacular coins like this.
Funny that Laura is blaming the original bidder's passion for the coin. But possibly Legend Auctions hyped the coin really well to get not only a high bidder but an almost as high underbidder.
Legend should buy this coin back and offer it as an unreserved item on a future auction.......just to preserve their Golden Reputation. And PCGS should correctly re-grade the coin.
“1000% PERFECT surfaces adorn both sides. Use a neutron microscope and you will find NO flaws of any size, any where.”
And PCGS grades the coin as MS67 despite many bag marks
And the coin's color could easily be .91 Questionable Color
One can easily conclude that Legend, in their auction description, misrepresented the coin. And PCGS probably committed a grading error at MS67.
I think the original buyer had reason to trust Legend's analysis, even though they said the coin was worth much less. But to an extent, an auction house cannot over inflate the value of an item they are selling. But to describe a coin as 1000% perfect, even with a neutron microscope, when that is obviously impossible, is very irresponsible. The original bidder can claim they he/she relied on Legend's opinion as to condition, if not to price.
Legend and PCGS both have culpability in this matter and should compensate the original bidder accordingly. This for the good of our business.
OINK
You don’t get to have it both ways - say they can rely on condition description to the letter, but ignore the pricing estimate by a factor of near ten. In the immortal words of the Kraken, no reasonable person would believe the puffery.
It's pretty Legendary to me. I'm not sure what else to call it since the provenance isn't known.
You have far lower standards of significance than I do. I could give you my real opinion of it but then, I'd be accused of "thrashing" the coin or something worse.
My standard is based on the amount of fame the coin has. Do you know of a more famous Franklin Half?
I wouldn't call a single Franklin half famous or anything close to it.
It wouldn't surprise me if most collectors of the series have never heard of this coin. I presume it's well known to the modest number who spend "material" amounts on the series. Otherwise, likely only to the low proportion who are professional numismatists, read the coin press, or read forums like this one.
You've made your opinion on many US coins well known in multiple threads. From my understanding, you don't collect US coins. Is that correct?
If you don't collect US coins, it would be easy to understand why you wouldn't call a Franklin half famous or anything close to it.
My opinion here is unrelated to my collecting, has nothing to do with it.
It's that this coin isn't actually prominent, except as I told you in my last post. It's expensive but nothing more.
I'd also consider it one of the most overpriced coins in existence, for what it actually is as a collectible.
JA should start using a black CAC sticker. It should be called the "Are you out of your freakin mind?" sticker. This coin would certainly qualify.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
@Lazybones said:
JA should start using a black CAC sticker. It should be called the "Are you out of your freakin mind?" sticker. This coin would certainly qualify.
You do realize that this coin has a green sticker, right?
Also, many people above kept calling the coin MS67. It is MS67+FBL. Another coin at this level sold for $10K. I agree that 47K is still a high price but another gorgeous Franklin in the same grade (a more common 58-D) sold for $32K recently.
@wondercoin said:
Old news. I believe the coin also went 1 bid and out the second time? I tip my hat to Legend for getting that much money the second time around on the coin and having that customer. No telling what the coin would have fetched had it opened at $1 with no reserve. I personally own one of the top (5) MS Franklin FBL sets in the Registry (last I checked) and doubt I would have bid much more than half what it fetched the second time around.
Gets back to the clear adage that your money is generally made, or lost, on the buy, not the sell. Buying that coin for $130,000.00 created a near hopeless situation for that buyer. Not sure 5 more years would have changed anything as that owner found the perfect buyer for his registry set and couldn’t get that coin sold as part of the 34/35 coin deal.
Just my 2 cents.
Wondercoin.
I agree with all of this.
The one thing I would add is that I think this is one of the cases where an auction is not a good idea. I think the only way "out" for the previous owner is to consign it as a fixed price offering to a major dealer. I don't know that he could have gotten over $100k. But if it sits on a prominent website long enough, some registry participant may eventually feel the tug. For an auction to work, you need at least two people feeling the simultaneous tug.
@Lazybones said:
JA should start using a black CAC sticker. It should be called the "Are you out of your freakin mind?" sticker. This coin would certainly qualify.
You do realize that this coin has a green sticker, right?
It got the CAC sticker twice.
When a coin comes in with a new cert, does JA look at it again or just sticker it without rechecking the grade?
@OldIndianNutKase said:
The coin is a joke and was auctioned through Legend for the astronomical price first time and stupid price the second go around. Legend should be embarrased for promoting the coin to stupid bidders and PCGS should be ashamed for the grade of MS67. As previous poster have pointed out this coin has a plethora of bag marks, some of which are partially hidden by the toning. As for the toning it looks like it's provenance might have been EDynamic who regularly has spectacular coins like this.
Funny that Laura is blaming the original bidder's passion for the coin. But possibly Legend Auctions hyped the coin really well to get not only a high bidder but an almost as high underbidder.
Legend should buy this coin back and offer it as an unreserved item on a future auction.......just to preserve their Golden Reputation. And PCGS should correctly re-grade the coin.
OINK
Pfffft. /eyeroll
I don't think an eyeroll is enough here. LOL.
That coin was graded multiple times, was it not? That coin also received CAC designation, so there's a second set of eyes on the coin. For anyone to sit there, having never seen the coin in hand, and suggest that the MULTIPLE professionals who have handled the coin are all wrong is the height of arrogance.
Laura’s original auction description:
...
The PCGS Population in MS67+ FBL is two, with NONE FINER; NGC has graded nothing finer than MS67 FBL.
Thanks for posting that.
Perhaps the buyer wasn’t so buried initially and the new price was simply be due to the PCGS population doubling in 3 years from 2 to 4?
I'm not sure how to separate the grade from the color. I mean, what percentage of the price is due to the color? Are the other three 67+ FBL's equally vividly toned?
Laura’s original auction description:
...
The PCGS Population in MS67+ FBL is two, with NONE FINER; NGC has graded nothing finer than MS67 FBL.
Thanks for posting that.
Perhaps the buyer wasn’t so buried initially and the new price was simply be due to the PCGS population doubling in 3 years from 2 to 4?
I'm not sure how to separate the grade from the color. I mean, what percentage of the price is due to the color? Are the other three 67+ FBL's equally vividly toned?
From what I’ve seen, while color trumps grade for mid-priced toners, at the very highest end, grade is a big part of it.
My interpretation is that toner-only collectors that focus on color at the expense of grade may not be playing in the deep end of the pool.
It's pretty Legendary to me. I'm not sure what else to call it since the provenance isn't known.
You have far lower standards of significance than I do. I could give you my real opinion of it but then, I'd be accused of "thrashing" the coin or something worse.
My standard is based on the amount of fame the coin has. Do you know of a more famous Franklin Half?
I wouldn't call a single Franklin half famous or anything close to it.
It wouldn't surprise me if most collectors of the series have never heard of this coin. I presume it's well known to the modest number who spend "material" amounts on the series. Otherwise, likely only to the low proportion who are professional numismatists, read the coin press, or read forums like this one.
You've made your opinion on many US coins well known in multiple threads. From my understanding, you don't collect US coins. Is that correct?
If you don't collect US coins, it would be easy to understand why you wouldn't call a Franklin half famous or anything close to it.
My opinion here is unrelated to my collecting, has nothing to do with it.
It's that this coin isn't actually prominent, except as I told you in my last post. It's expensive but nothing more.
I'd also consider it one of the most overpriced coins in existence, for what it actually is as a collectible.
Haven’t you expressed an opinion that virtually all US coins are expensive and not prominent? This is relative to the world coins you’ve compared them to on these forums.
Saying not a single Franklin is noteworthy seems to be a pretty encompassing statement.
Blow up a 65 or 66 to that magnification and you'll see the same thing.
Personally, I don't think it's a 67. But it is much better than a 64.
Hey, you left out my helpful circles! Here it is again. And again, you could add some more circles, too. The obverse isn’t just lightly marked, but gashed all over the place…. I’ll stick with my “64 at best” comment. This isn’t really overly magnified, certainly not any more than using a basic 5x loupe.
It's pretty Legendary to me. I'm not sure what else to call it since the provenance isn't known.
You have far lower standards of significance than I do. I could give you my real opinion of it but then, I'd be accused of "thrashing" the coin or something worse.
My standard is based on the amount of fame the coin has. Do you know of a more famous Franklin Half?
I wouldn't call a single Franklin half famous or anything close to it.
It wouldn't surprise me if most collectors of the series have never heard of this coin. I presume it's well known to the modest number who spend "material" amounts on the series. Otherwise, likely only to the low proportion who are professional numismatists, read the coin press, or read forums like this one.
You've made your opinion on many US coins well known in multiple threads. From my understanding, you don't collect US coins. Is that correct?
If you don't collect US coins, it would be easy to understand why you wouldn't call a Franklin half famous or anything close to it.
My opinion here is unrelated to my collecting, has nothing to do with it.
It's that this coin isn't actually prominent, except as I told you in my last post. It's expensive but nothing more.
I'd also consider it one of the most overpriced coins in existence, for what it actually is as a collectible.
Haven’t you expressed an opinion that virtually all US coins are expensive and not prominent? This is relative to the world coins you’ve compared them to on these forums.
Saying not a single Franklin is noteworthy seems to be a pretty encompassing statement.
Blow up a 65 or 66 to that magnification and you'll see the same thing.
Personally, I don't think it's a 67. But it is much better than a 64.
Hey, you left out my helpful circles! Here it is again. And again, you could add some more, too. The obverse isn’t just lightly marked, but gashed all over the place…. I’ll stick with my “64 at best” comment. This isn’t really overly magnified, certainly not any more than using a basic 5x loupe.
Why do you want me to tie up people's bandwidth by multiple copies of the same image?
That coin was graded several times as well as CACed. This wasn't a one time glance by a tired grader.
Personally, I don't think it's a 67. But it is much better than a 64.
@jmlanzaf said:
That coin was graded multiple times, was it not? That coin also received CAC designation, so there's a second set of eyes on the coin. For anyone to sit there, having never seen the coin in hand, and suggest that the MULTIPLE professionals who have handled the coin are all wrong is the height of arrogance.
Just to clarify which statement are you standing behind? You say its not a 67 (it is graded 67+ with CAC) and then you comment that saying its not a 67 and not worthy of the CAC is the height of arrogance. It would seem that you are just as guilty of arrogance that you claim another is, or have you seen this coin in person and that gives you the ability to comment on the grade and sticker.
It's pretty Legendary to me. I'm not sure what else to call it since the provenance isn't known.
You have far lower standards of significance than I do. I could give you my real opinion of it but then, I'd be accused of "thrashing" the coin or something worse.
My standard is based on the amount of fame the coin has. Do you know of a more famous Franklin Half?
I wouldn't call a single Franklin half famous or anything close to it.
It wouldn't surprise me if most collectors of the series have never heard of this coin. I presume it's well known to the modest number who spend "material" amounts on the series. Otherwise, likely only to the low proportion who are professional numismatists, read the coin press, or read forums like this one.
You've made your opinion on many US coins well known in multiple threads. From my understanding, you don't collect US coins. Is that correct?
If you don't collect US coins, it would be easy to understand why you wouldn't call a Franklin half famous or anything close to it.
My opinion here is unrelated to my collecting, has nothing to do with it.
It's that this coin isn't actually prominent, except as I told you in my last post. It's expensive but nothing more.
I'd also consider it one of the most overpriced coins in existence, for what it actually is as a collectible.
Haven’t you expressed an opinion that virtually all US coins are expensive and not prominent? This is relative to the world coins you’ve compared them to on these forums.
Saying not a single Franklin is noteworthy seems to be a pretty encompassing statement.
Blow up a 65 or 66 to that magnification and you'll see the same thing.
Personally, I don't think it's a 67. But it is much better than a 64.
Hey, you left out my helpful circles! Here it is again. And again, you could add some more, too. The obverse isn’t just lightly marked, but gashed all over the place…. I’ll stick with my “64 at best” comment. This isn’t really overly magnified, certainly not any more than using a basic 5x loupe.
Why do you want me to tie up people's bandwidth by multiple copies of the same image?
That coin was graded several times as well as CACed. This wasn't a one time glance by a tired grader.
I think the point is that a white coin with those marks would be a 64, maybe 65. It already got an eye appeal bump all the way to 67+, and a sticker. Fine and dandy, i guess.
But it was bid up to MS89 price last time, and we're discussing why it only fetched MS82 money this time
“1000% PERFECT surfaces adorn both sides. Use a neutron microscope and you will find NO flaws of any size, any where.”
And PCGS grades the coin as MS67 despite many bag marks
And the coin's color could easily be .91 Questionable Color
One can easily conclude that Legend, in their auction description, misrepresented the coin. And PCGS probably committed a grading error at MS67.
I think the original buyer had reason to trust Legend's analysis, even though they said the coin was worth much less. But to an extent, an auction house cannot over inflate the value of an item they are selling. But to describe a coin as 1000% perfect, even with a neutron microscope, when that is obviously impossible, is very irresponsible. The original bidder can claim they he/she relied on Legend's opinion as to condition, if not to price.
Legend and PCGS both have culpability in this matter and should compensate the original bidder accordingly. This for the good of our business.
OINK
You don’t get to have it both ways - say they can rely on condition description to the letter, but ignore the pricing estimate by a factor of near ten. In the immortal words of the Kraken, no reasonable person would believe the puffery.
This is amusing to say the least. One minute Laura is heralded by some as omnipotent and a numismatic savant, and the next she is said to engage in puffery. There is no difference in the auction description and 90% of her other postings whether on the forum or on the Legend website. Everything is full of hyperbole or I guess "puffery" as you call it. It does not help that this coin was also blessed by PCGS and CAC. It may very well look better in hand and some of it might be planchet roughness (not ALL of that is), but I still think 67+ in a gift from above.
Maybe the buyer had reservations, but saw the PCGS and CAC combo along with Laura's blessing and thought it was truly special in terms of surfaces. She's always touting the power and importance of being "CAC" only." You contend no one is that naive, but I've seen number of sketchy statements on the forums like "cracking a CAC coin for an upgrade is fraud" or "buy the CAC not the holder or the coin" or other truly fantastic remarks.
Comments
We all make mistakes. Some bigger then others.
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
One should take into account the change in grades and the introduction of CAC when looking at this.
This is a consequence of the pump and dump strategy executed by the promoters.
When paying up that much for a common coin, where there’s no real comps and the market is truly auction-based (no floor, no ceiling)...you’d better get your enjoyment out of it while you own it, regardless of what you pay.
As for Laura’s comments, sounds like she’s at least trying to be real for the majority of her clientele. In this particular case, the seller probably should have put some effort into actually making the coin legendary while they owned it (displays, documentaries, YouTube features, I don’t know). It looks like after they bought it the rest of the market wasn’t cultivated to like it as much as they did. Gotta bring in that 3rd person if it’s going to auction well again.
On the other hand, of course, maybe it was just taking up too much space in their mansion and it was worth the $75k haircut to not have to store it anymore.
Bigness of mistake is also relative. What's big to one person may not be to another.
My guess is Laura may be more concerned about distorting the market here, which was specifically mentioned.
The coin is a joke and was auctioned through Legend for the astronomical price first time and stupid price the second go around. Legend should be embarrased for promoting the coin to stupid bidders and PCGS should be ashamed for the grade of MS67. As previous poster have pointed out this coin has a plethora of bag marks, some of which are partially hidden by the toning. As for the toning it looks like it's provenance might have been EDynamic who regularly has spectacular coins like this.
Funny that Laura is blaming the original bidder's passion for the coin. But possibly Legend Auctions hyped the coin really well to get not only a high bidder but an almost as high underbidder.
Legend should buy this coin back and offer it as an unreserved item on a future auction.......just to preserve their Golden Reputation. And PCGS should correctly re-grade the coin.
OINK
ROFL - Do you have any bourse room experience? Have you ever analyzed pricing trends on Commems? Harry Laibstains book? Or conversed with major wholesaler in the biz since 1972? No I don’t think so.
What book have you written about changes in grading based on submission research. Have you got many upgrades on rattlers, ogh?
As far as a market on some coins somebody paid way way over CF / CPG that’s just a toner bubble universe not a market price / analysis like CPG, CF, NN Coin Market.
I would suggest reading Richard Giedroyc NN Coin Market at a Glance column. Now that’s a coin market analyst.
As far as CAC on that piece CPG is $467. So market distortion not to worry - just don’t overpay! That guy paid the 47 k on it buried too IMO. Sure some people pay insane money on toners but you have to find that person just like drawing that winning lottery ticket.
Do you know how to pick upgradable coins or how to upgrade coins?
Many coins were submitted multiple times, up to 30 times, to upgrade.
It was plain as day on a certain photo website. Go ahead and say it’s not the case when many have seen and discussed it already.
@OldIndianNutKase I was wondering when someone would bring up the toning.
I have been collecting toned Franklins for ~ 35 years now. While I certainly don't believe the Franklin is EDynamic toning (as it is not THAT garish) I do seriously wonder about the toning. It MAY be that in hand it doesn't look that "off", but from the TV image I'd say that toning is AT. Further, the toning colors are off for a P mint. The color components would fit for a 1958 D, but the look is way off. I will say, I have seen a variety of Franklins at major shows that have gotten serious grade bumps for having "outrageous" toning that IMO are AT, so I suspect there is AT LEAST one Dr. out there for Franklins.
U.S. Type Set
I have pondered weighing in ...
It's actually quite the opposite. It's the Art of Selling a Widget, for way more than $400. And dipping into the well and doing it more than once.
The vig' alone on the SECOND sale is worth more than what almost any of us would consider paying.
Obviously though, based on the two most recent price realized numbers, there were other bidders in the room.
It's not a top flight Gem, and it has speculative coloration ... IMHO.
“We are only their care-takers,” he posed, “if we take good care of them, then centuries from now they may still be here … ”
Todd - BHNC #242
I don’t consider what somebody grossly overpaid into the stratosphere a “market price”.
When Legend describes the coin as follows:
“1000% PERFECT surfaces adorn both sides. Use a neutron microscope and you will find NO flaws of any size, any where.”
And PCGS grades the coin as MS67 despite many bag marks
And the coin's color could easily be .91 Questionable Color
One can easily conclude that Legend, in their auction description, misrepresented the coin. And PCGS probably committed a grading error at MS67.
I think the original buyer had reason to trust Legend's analysis, even though they said the coin was worth much less. But to an extent, an auction house cannot over inflate the value of an item they are selling. But to describe a coin as 1000% perfect, even with a neutron microscope, when that is obviously impossible, is very irresponsible. The original bidder can claim they he/she relied on Legend's opinion as to condition, if not to price.
Legend and PCGS both have culpability in this matter and should compensate the original bidder accordingly. This for the good of our business.
OINK
Perhaps @MFeld would offer his enlightened opinion of the auction description of this coin.
I think that auction participants have a right to an accurate "technical" description of a coin's attributes, not a BS sales description as a coin being 1000% of anything.
OINK
Well, one thing about Laura...... You don't have to wonder what she's thinking.
I actually find that to be rather refreshing.
Interesting comment on a "Dr. Franklin" out there.
This one is QC, but when posted here a while back, at least one person said they could see this straight graded one day. This doesn't look like EDM toning to me, and neither does the OP coin.
I like her straight talk.
I say keep it up
probably a set chaser. build/complete/rinse/repeat.
I get it.
I believe stupid money has something to do with it
Had the coin sold for 200k this time around, would we be calling the guy a genius? The selling price of 47k was still a significant premium to the book value. The market has spoken and now been echoed that the coin has significant value for what it is, there is just a moving target as to what that value may be.
Thinly traded high value items cannot always be predicted. Even coins like the 1804 dollar gain and lose value, and there haven't been any newly discovered lately.
The more frequently these things trade hands, the less rare they appear. It's interesting how this perception matters, even for people who have the rational understanding that supply has not changed.
There are collectors with deep pockets, and there are collectors who chase set status, and there are collectors who like colorful tarnish. That set of conditions, plus an auction bidding war, can produce results as occurred when this coin hit that (IMO) ridiculous price. I personally consider even the second price ridiculous. Of course, that is my opinion, and people are entitled to spend their money as they choose. Meanwhile, I will sit comfortably on my wallet and watch the show.
Cheers, RickO
Well this doesn't come as a surprise since many of us on here felt the $130K buyer was buried. As having a thicker wallet in this hobby doesn't make anyone instantly a more knowledgeable collector. However I hope it does keep such a collector from rocking in a cradle position after taking a $80K+ loss? As I've witnessed average budget collectors leave this hobby after taking a substantially lesser loss.
...or pitched on the next coin.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
...Didn't this coin sell for $3k or something before it was upgraded?
Professional Numismatist. "It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
The trick isn't to back off on all bidding wars. The trick is to pick your battles more carefully.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@SeattleSlammer
Laura’s original auction description:
We unhesitatingly pronounce this the BEST and wildest 1958 Frankie in existence! EVERYTHING about this coin is mind boggling! EVERYTHING! 1000% PERFECT surfaces adorn both sides. Use a neutron microscope and you will find NO flaws of any size, any where.An intense luster nearly blinds you from all over. The color rivals ANY of the BEST Northern Lights coins-really! Electric shades of killer neon like violet/pearl green/raw blue explode all over the obverse in a sparkly way. The reverse has a killer mix of iridescent reddish rims, with phenomenal nearly neon like greenish gold centers. We rank the colors a 10+ on our 1-10 color scale we used for our North Lights coins. Do not just take our word on wild colors-see this coin. Also, ALL of the details are sharply struck. The eye appeal is outrageous! PCGS 18, NGC 4, CAC 20 (obviously resubs). The PCGS Population in MS67+ FBL is two, with NONE FINER; NGC has graded nothing finer than MS67 FBL. In the ENTIRE SERIES, none have been graded finer than MS67+ FBL. The current Collectors universe Value is $17,000. We can easily see this coin blowing past that long before the sale even starts. Again, we rank this coin as great as any of the top Northern Lights Dollars which sold for "beyond moon money." Be prepared! Cert. Number 35921630 PCGS # 86674
Wayne
Kennedys are my quest...
Here are my two 1958d's in MS65+FBL and MS66 pulled from a set.
So close, yet so far... if I could just marry the two!
Not a Franklin expert by any stretch, but that grade is a head scratcher.
I would take Legend descriptions with a grain of salt, but wonder if the bidders even saw the coin in hand?
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Anyone who would pay $129k for a Franklin is nuts. Hardly a legendary coin.
Just my eversohumble opinion.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
Pfffft. /eyeroll
You don’t get to have it both ways - say they can rely on condition description to the letter, but ignore the pricing estimate by a factor of near ten. In the immortal words of the Kraken, no reasonable person would believe the puffery.
My opinion here is unrelated to my collecting, has nothing to do with it.
It's that this coin isn't actually prominent, except as I told you in my last post. It's expensive but nothing more.
I'd also consider it one of the most overpriced coins in existence, for what it actually is as a collectible.
JA should start using a black CAC sticker. It should be called the "Are you out of your freakin mind?" sticker. This coin would certainly qualify.
USAF (Ret) 1974 - 1994 - The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries. Remembering RickO, a brother in arms.
You do realize that this coin has a green sticker, right?
Also, many people above kept calling the coin MS67. It is MS67+FBL. Another coin at this level sold for $10K. I agree that 47K is still a high price but another gorgeous Franklin in the same grade (a more common 58-D) sold for $32K recently.
Blow up a 65 or 66 to that magnification and you'll see the same thing.
Personally, I don't think it's a 67. But it is much better than a 64.
I agree with all of this.
The one thing I would add is that I think this is one of the cases where an auction is not a good idea. I think the only way "out" for the previous owner is to consign it as a fixed price offering to a major dealer. I don't know that he could have gotten over $100k. But if it sits on a prominent website long enough, some registry participant may eventually feel the tug. For an auction to work, you need at least two people feeling the simultaneous tug.
It got the CAC sticker twice.
When a coin comes in with a new cert, does JA look at it again or just sticker it without rechecking the grade?
Thanks for posting that.
Perhaps the buyer wasn’t so buried initially and the new price was simply be due to the PCGS population doubling in 3 years from 2 to 4?
I don't think an eyeroll is enough here. LOL.
That coin was graded multiple times, was it not? That coin also received CAC designation, so there's a second set of eyes on the coin. For anyone to sit there, having never seen the coin in hand, and suggest that the MULTIPLE professionals who have handled the coin are all wrong is the height of arrogance.
I'm not sure how to separate the grade from the color. I mean, what percentage of the price is due to the color? Are the other three 67+ FBL's equally vividly toned?
From what I’ve seen, while color trumps grade for mid-priced toners, at the very highest end, grade is a big part of it.
My interpretation is that toner-only collectors that focus on color at the expense of grade may not be playing in the deep end of the pool.
Haven’t you expressed an opinion that virtually all US coins are expensive and not prominent? This is relative to the world coins you’ve compared them to on these forums.
Saying not a single Franklin is noteworthy seems to be a pretty encompassing statement.
Hey, you left out my helpful circles! Here it is again. And again, you could add some more circles, too. The obverse isn’t just lightly marked, but gashed all over the place…. I’ll stick with my “64 at best” comment. This isn’t really overly magnified, certainly not any more than using a basic 5x loupe.
People have their > @SeattleSlammer said:
Why do you want me to tie up people's bandwidth by multiple copies of the same image?
That coin was graded several times as well as CACed. This wasn't a one time glance by a tired grader.
Just to clarify which statement are you standing behind? You say its not a 67 (it is graded 67+ with CAC) and then you comment that saying its not a 67 and not worthy of the CAC is the height of arrogance. It would seem that you are just as guilty of arrogance that you claim another is, or have you seen this coin in person and that gives you the ability to comment on the grade and sticker.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
$47,000 is still way too high. Way too high.
The competitive collecting fostered by the registries is something I've never understood. Oh well . . . .
Coinlearner, Ahrensdad, Nolawyer, RG, coinlieutenant, Yorkshireman, lordmarcovan, Soldi, masscrew, JimTyler, Relaxn, jclovescoins
Now listen boy, I'm tryin' to teach you sumthin' . . . . that ain't an optical illusion, it only looks like an optical illusion.
My mind reader refuses to charge me....
I think the point is that a white coin with those marks would be a 64, maybe 65. It already got an eye appeal bump all the way to 67+, and a sticker. Fine and dandy, i guess.
But it was bid up to MS89 price last time, and we're discussing why it only fetched MS82 money this time
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I used to microgade amazing toner coins. Then I graduated high school
This is amusing to say the least. One minute Laura is heralded by some as omnipotent and a numismatic savant, and the next she is said to engage in puffery. There is no difference in the auction description and 90% of her other postings whether on the forum or on the Legend website. Everything is full of hyperbole or I guess "puffery" as you call it. It does not help that this coin was also blessed by PCGS and CAC. It may very well look better in hand and some of it might be planchet roughness (not ALL of that is), but I still think 67+ in a gift from above.
Maybe the buyer had reservations, but saw the PCGS and CAC combo along with Laura's blessing and thought it was truly special in terms of surfaces. She's always touting the power and importance of being "CAC" only." You contend no one is that naive, but I've seen number of sketchy statements on the forums like "cracking a CAC coin for an upgrade is fraud" or "buy the CAC not the holder or the coin" or other truly fantastic remarks.
Never mind - awkward joke about neutron microscopes and cutting edge physics deleted.
MS 66 still seems like the right grade.