CAC Results and request to call JA - Final update!!!

davids5104 · December 11, 2019 6:52PM

14 for 19 on CAC. On one of the coins, an 1899-O he put 2 stickers on... one said call JA and the other pointing to the rim of the coin. Here is the true view link. https://www.pcgs.com/cert/37287134

We discussed this coin here previously at this link. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1022145/great-morgan-with-rim-hit#latest

A friend took this coin to Baltimore and asked around, those he asked universally called it PMD.

The coin received a green sticker

ms70 · December 11, 2019 7:40PM

I find it hard to believe that would be PMD.

erwindoc · December 11, 2019 7:47PM

Well, have you called him yet?

davids5104 · December 11, 2019 7:49PM

@erwindoc said:
Well, have you called him yet?

Just got the coins today. I am off work Friday. I will call tomorrow or Friday

scubafuel · December 11, 2019 8:16PM

I was commenting that I did not think it was PMD, but after a very careful look on a bigger screen the beveled obverse rim does make it look like the coin took a hit when the letters were imprinted. Still very interesting and I'd love to look at it through a loupe.

I think there is an outside chance that the planchet was "damaged" by a struck coin before being struck, and only the design outside the dentils survived striking. In hand, is there any "squeeze" damage at all to the dentils where the incuse lettering is? Or any disturbance to the reeding in that area?

Coinstartled · December 11, 2019 8:30PM

Ask him why the 82-S in 66+ didn't sticker.

davids5104 · December 11, 2019 8:40PM

@scubafuel said:
I was commenting that I did not think it was PMD, but after a very careful look on a bigger screen the beveled obverse rim does make it look like the coin took a hit when the letters were imprinted. Still very interesting and I'd love to look at it through a loupe.

I think there is an outside chance that the planchet was "damaged" by a struck coin before being struck, and only the design outside the dentils survived striking. In hand, is there any "squeeze" damage at all to the dentils where the incuse lettering is? Or any disturbance to the reeding in that area?

The reeding is undamaged and the denticles are crisp.

Peace_dollar88 · December 11, 2019 8:45PM

Cool. Keep us posted on the phone call!

scubafuel · December 11, 2019 10:03PM

@davids5104 I think that goes a long way to pointing toward a damaged planchet before striking. I think it would be a very unusual circumstance for a blank planchet to come into contact with a struck coin before striking, but weird stuff apparently happened all the time at the mint.

I guess PMD would still be fair in this scenario, but it would be "Pre-mint damage"

DelawareDoons · December 11, 2019 10:15PM

Wow, that is a cool dollar! Clearly says "STATES OF". I am curious to hear what JA says about it.

Smudge · December 11, 2019 10:23PM

You may want to ask for written documentation of your phone conversation.

BAJJERFAN · December 11, 2019 10:41PM

@DelawareDoons said:
Clearly says "STATES OF".

Why is that important? it clearly says "ONE DOLLAR" too! Plus a few other clear words.

Unknown · December 11, 2019 10:46PM

This content has been removed.

sparky64 · December 12, 2019 12:48AM

It sure is an interesting situation.
I missed the old thread and look forward to reading more about this.

ricko · December 12, 2019 5:27AM

Interesting coin.... We certainly are interested in what JA will say about the coin... Obviously does not think it is PMD... so likely pre strike planchet damage.... We await the word from on high... Cheers, RickO

jmlanzaf · December 12, 2019 6:05AM

@BAJJERFAN said:

@DelawareDoons said:
Clearly says "STATES OF".

Why is that important? it clearly says "ONE DOLLAR" too! Plus a few other clear words.

He's talking about the letters on the rim not in the fields

jmlanzaf · December 12, 2019 6:07AM

Is there anything anywhere else on the coin? Artifacts of the design, I mean

BryceM · December 12, 2019 6:56AM

Cool coin. Now I’ll be be musing about how this happened while I’m working today.

messydesk · December 12, 2019 7:37AM

Odd. My first reaction, and the easiest explanation is that it's a squeeze job. It could be a planchet that got pinched between a struck coin and something else somehow, but I'm not sure how. The answer is probably told by the reeds. They'll be distorted with a squeeze job, and not if it was struck this way.

Broadstruck · December 12, 2019 7:48AM

This might have been in a mint bag sandwiched between other dollars and another sealed mint bag was tossed atop.

They had a lot of rat infestation issues all the mints then and the bags got moved around regularly.

It's what we call a sandwich error, but this one was accidental instead of deliberate.

Still as it's not something that occurred on a coin press it's PMD.

scubafuel · December 12, 2019 8:57AM

@Broadstruck , OP reports no damage to the dentils, no damage to the reeds. Given how clear the squeezed letters are, wouldn’t it be more likely to have happened pre strike?

BAJJERFAN · December 12, 2019 9:03AM

@Flackthat said:
@BAJJERFAN

It wasn't obvious to me that those are letters even on the larger image of the coin.

davids5104 · December 12, 2019 9:20AM

Spoke to JA.... he said he first wanted me to contact him to confirm I was aware of the nature of the coin.
He said he believes this is not PMD, but is a mint error. He said too much pressure would be required to create the perfect lettering. He said that there was cartwheel luster throughout and the depressions had mint luster in them.
This coin is also free of bag Mark's and there are no bag marks in the area of discussion.

JA thought I should send the to @BrettPCGS specifically to have this evaluated.

Lastly, i asked him a discussed, but unverified (at least to me) question about CAC. I asked him about coins that have previously been submitted but NOT beaned, do they keep track of those AND is this knowledge known when evaluating a repeat coin.
His answer is before they come to the evaluators, there is a yellow sticker applied for coins that have previously been submitted and not beaned. He said he has zero statistics, but guessed perhaps 10% of these "yellow stickered coins" will get beaned on resubmitting. He said submitters pay to have them evaluated, so every coin will be evaluated and not blindly left unbeaned.

jmlanzaf · December 12, 2019 9:29AM

@davids5104 said:
Spoke to JA.... he said he first wanted me to contact him to confirm I was aware of the nature of the coin.
He said he believes this is not PMD, but is a mint error. He said too much pressure would be required to create the perfect lettering. He said that there was cartwheel luster throughout and the depressions had mint luster in them.
This coin is also free of bag Mark's and there are no bag marks in the area of discussion.

JA thought I should send the to @BrettPCGS specifically to have this evaluated.

Lastly, i asked him a discussed, but unverified (at least to me) question about CAC. I asked him about coins that have previously been submitted but NOT beaned, do they keep track of those AND is this knowledge known when evaluating a repeat coin.
His answer is before they come to the evaluators, there is a yellow sticker applied for coins that have previously been submitted and not beaned. He said he has zero statistics, but guessed perhaps 10% of these "yellow stickered coins" will get beaned on resubmitting. He said submitters pay to have them evaluated, so every coin will be evaluated and not blindly left unbeaned.

It doesn't look like PMD. It doesn't appear to be a sandwich coin as the letters are raised but they are oddly reversed which suggests some kind of two-step process if it's an actual error.

It is very intriguing.

And, at the risk of bringing out the CAC haters, please note the personal attention that JA paid to this.

sparky64 · December 12, 2019 9:42AM

To be clear, are the mystery letters raised or incuse?
They look raised to me.

Broadstruck · December 12, 2019 2:01PM

@scubafuel said:
@Broadstruck , OP reports no damage to the dentils, no damage to the reeds. Given how clear the squeezed letters are, wouldn’t it be more likely to have happened pre strike?

Letters are backwards from the die strike so it was from another coin and some heavy impact.

Don't care what JA thinks as Fred Weinberg is the final word on errors and who PCGS would send it too also.

Insider2 · December 12, 2019 2:10PM

The letters are INTO the rim. This characteristic is uncommon but not rare. I've never given it a thought about how it was caused. On Indian and Lincoln cents it is usually an overstrike from an encasement. That is not the case here. I've seen this on $20 gold coins of both types also. Usually it is the stars.

While it is neat and interesting, technically, it is damage IMO.

davids5104 · December 12, 2019 4:58PM

@sparky64 said:
To be clear, are the mystery letters raised or incuse?
They look raised to me.

those letters are not raised. They are below the surface, below the level of the fields.

Just pulled out microscope... hard to see with loope

jmlanzaf · December 12, 2019 5:04PM

@davids5104 said:

@sparky64 said:
To be clear, are the mystery letters raised or incuse?
They look raised to me.

those letters are not raised. They are below the surface, below the level of the fields.

Boy, that picture is deceptive. It sure looks like the letters go up not down. If those letters are punched into the coin, why do we think it isn't damage?

jmlanzaf · December 12, 2019 5:08PM

@davids5104 said:

@sparky64 said:
To be clear, are the mystery letters raised or incuse?
They look raised to me.

those letters are not raised. They are below the surface, below the level of the fields.

Are you misunderstanding the question? You are telling us that the center region of the O in "OF" is above the line that creates the O? Then how is the line running into the denticle?

davids5104 · December 12, 2019 5:13PM

@jmlanzaf said:

@davids5104 said:

@sparky64 said:
To be clear, are the mystery letters raised or incuse?
They look raised to me.

those letters are not raised. They are below the surface, below the level of the fields.

Boy, that picture is deceptive. It sure looks like the letters go up not down. If those letters are punched into the coin, why do we think it isn't damage?

Broadstruck · December 12, 2019 5:14PM

The letters would be raised if double struck...

But since they aren't this is simply PMD and not some mind bending mint error.

davids5104 · December 12, 2019 5:17PM

@Broadstruck said:
The letters would be raised if double struck...

But since they aren't this is simply PMD and not some mind bending mint error.

i am sorry i was incorrect about the lettering. they are above the fields. I edited the post and added some photos

davids5104 · December 12, 2019 5:24PM

jmlanzaf · December 12, 2019 5:25PM

If the letters are raised, it can't simply be PMD, but the inversion also means it's not simply double struck.

The only way I can see it happening is if you had some kind of weird off center double clash.

Broadstruck · December 12, 2019 5:27PM

@davids5104 said:

@Broadstruck said:
The letters would be raised if double struck...

But since they aren't this is simply PMD and not some mind bending mint error.

i am sorry i was incorrect about the lettering. they are above the fields. I edited the post and added some photos

I wish it was a mint error of some sort as I'd be the first to say it's cool.

Still even damaged in gem condition it's got a better story than 12+ million other 1899-O Morgan dollars.

davids5104 · December 12, 2019 5:28PM

I am not trying to confuse anyone. I am uninformed about quite a few coin topics and even with a looped it is hard to see. I think the letters "OF" are above the fields and the letters "states are below the fields" The last "S" looks like the transition point between the high and low side of the stamp

This "S" is the only one that looks like it interacts with the denticles....

jmlanzaf · December 12, 2019 5:42PM

@davids5104 said:
I am not trying to confuse anyone. I am uninformed about quite a few coin topics and even with a looped it is hard to see. I think the letters "OF" are above the fields and the letters "states are below the fields" The last "S" looks like the transition point between the high and low side of the stamp

This "S" is the only one that looks like it interacts with the denticles....

Forget the fields, that isn't issue. Are the letters incuse? In other words, are the letters on the rim raised like the regular letters or punched into the surface of the coin.

LOL. The new photo makes them look incuse.

They can NOT be different. Either they are all raised or they are all incuse.

If you put a pencil in the center of the O, does the metal go down from the pencil point into the coin or up from the pencil point toward you?

Broadstruck · December 12, 2019 5:43PM

It looks like the struck denticals on a hardness level are higher that the reeded upset rims.

If you look on the reverse on how the rim collapsed from impact the denitcals are once again almost fully intact.

So when you just see a portion of a letter its because the denticals withstood what the raised rim couldn't.

amwldcoin · December 12, 2019 5:46PM

From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

MasonG · December 12, 2019 5:49PM

Based on light/shadows on the letters, it sure looks like the letters on the rim are incuse.

davids5104 · December 12, 2019 5:51PM

@amwldcoin said:
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.

amwldcoin · December 12, 2019 5:53PM

I will say I based that on you last set of pictures! The earlier ones they do look obtuse

@davids5104 said:

@amwldcoin said:
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.

amwldcoin · December 12, 2019 5:55PM

Dang! Looking again and again...just send it to me and I will let you know!

@amwldcoin said:
I will say I based that on you last set of pictures! The earlier ones they do look obtuse

@davids5104 said:

@amwldcoin said:
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.

@amwldcoin said:
I will say I based that on you last set of pictures! The earlier ones they do look obtuse

@davids5104 said:

@amwldcoin said:
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.

Broadstruck · December 12, 2019 6:01PM

See worst case scenario a ophthalmologist should pay up for this and write it off as a new eye test for old coin farts

Insider2 · December 12, 2019 6:05PM

This is hilarious yet very common. Very often as I take a micrograph the image looks just the opposite of the actual coin. I need to look away and blink usually that fixes things. Sometimes just turning the coin in the light can make the image correct.

The added letters INTO the rim are different from the normal letters above the coin's field.

blitzdude · December 12, 2019 6:15PM

PMD, I thought this ja was supposed to be some sort of expert? lol

jmlanzaf · December 12, 2019 6:18PM

@amwldcoin said:
I will say I based that on you last set of pictures! The earlier ones they do look obtuse

@davids5104 said:

@amwldcoin said:
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.

I agree. They look totally different in the second set.

@davids5104 You should be able to sort it out with directional lighting. The shadows will tell you.

davids5104 · December 12, 2019 6:19PM

This question to me, seems more than a question for customer service. How does pcgs address straight graded coins in their possession that are newly identified as PMD?
JA said to me he was not an error expert but did not think it was PMD. He said the letters had luster within them without moved metal

tradedollarnut · December 12, 2019 6:21PM

Doesn’t look like PMD to me.

jmlanzaf · December 12, 2019 6:23PM

@blitzdude said:
PMD, I thought this ja was supposed to be some sort of expert? lol

That's very funny. He's only looked at millions of coins, made millions of dollars and knows about 100x more than you. I get the irony of your joke. It's like calling a short person "stretch".

If those letters are incuse, it is probably damage. If the letters are in relief, it is far more confusing.

In either case, I don't think it can be PMD because the denticles are unaffected.

CAC Results and request to call JA - Final update!!!

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