The lettering in the field is raised, "A" points to the lighted edge, "B" to the shadowed edge. If the lettering on the rim was raised, the "A" and "B" should change places, I'd think.
@MasonG said:
The lettering in the field is raised, "A" points to the lighted edge, "B" to the shadowed edge. If the lettering on the rim was raised, the "A" and "B" should change places, I'd think.
I understand how the shadow line on the B of the letter S exists but explain it for the "front position towards the light" of the letter O
@davids5104 said:
This question to me, seems more than a question for customer service. How does pcgs address straight graded coins in their possession that are newly identified as PMD?
JA said to me he was not an error expert but did not think it was PMD. He said the letters had luster within them without moved metal
If you take a mint state coin and use a round metal punch on it your just pushing the surface in.
The recessed hole would still have the same luster inside.
This was done by another freshly minted Morgan which also left the luster undisturbed.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
i just need to send it to those that know. I am obviously clueless. I am a bit nervous for this to become a coin in a genuine slab rather than as it is currently housed.
@davids5104 said:
I understand how the shadow line on the B of the letter S exists but explain it for the "front position towards the light" of the letter O
Not sure I understand your question, but it appears that for the letter "O", it is brightest to the upper right, which would be the high point of the center of an incuse "O".
@MasonG said:
The lettering in the field is raised, "A" points to the lighted edge, "B" to the shadowed edge. If the lettering on the rim was raised, the "A" and "B" should change places, I'd think.
@Coinstartled said:
This thread is rapidly expanding, Has the OP contacted JA and if so, what was his comment?
Yes, the OP contacted JA (see page 1 of the thread). He said he wasn't an expert on errors but the luster in the letters led him to believe it wasn't simply damage.
@Coinstartled said:
This thread is rapidly expanding, Has the OP contacted JA and if so, what was his comment?
JA beaned it.... I think the very first post of this thread includes his comments. he did not think it was PMD
OK you guys got me. I saw yesterday that the coin passed the rigorous standards of cac and received a bean. You also noted that JA indicated that he wanted to talk to you, presumably about the coin that we are discussing.
Did you call him or not? If so, what did he say other than Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year?
instead of “I’ll let the experts explain it to me”, how about “how could this happen and look like it does?”
Then this might be more interesting.
One way it can happen and look like this is that a blank planchet had letters squeezed into it and then was struck. That would not be PMD.
There are other ways this can happen as well.
I expect he is sitting back with a glass of red wine and he is thinking about how big of a moron I am and how my photo skills are terrible. He wont even bother with my lack of ability to discuss what I am seeing with the coin in hand
@Coinstartled said:
This thread is rapidly expanding, Has the OP contacted JA and if so, what was his comment?
JA beaned it.... I think the very first post of this thread includes his comments. he did not think it was PMD
OK you guys got me. I saw yesterday that the coin passed the rigorous standards of cac and received a bean. You also noted that JA indicated that he wanted to talk to you, presumably about the coin that we are discussing.
Did you call him or not? If so, what did he say other than Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year?
I think he was confused and suggested sending it back in to the experts. Could be a red dragon special.
@scubafuel said:
instead of “I’ll let the experts explain it to me”, how about “how could this happen and look like it does?”
Then this might be more interesting.
One way it can happen and look like this is that a blank planchet had letters squeezed into it and then was struck. That would not be PMD.
There are other ways this can happen as well.
Given the location of the letters, why weren't they struck out? That's a high point of the coin. You'd also think the letters would not be so crisp with all the metal movement.
@Coinstartled said:
This thread is rapidly expanding, Has the OP contacted JA and if so, what was his comment?
JA beaned it.... I think the very first post of this thread includes his comments. he did not think it was PMD
As I recall, coins with this characteristic are not considered damaged and are straight graded. This coin shows more letters than usual which may tip the equation enough that they must be mentioned.
I've looked for some of my images of this characteristic but no luck so far and to tell the truth, I probably will not bother to waste more time.
Chew on this:
The letters are into the rim.
There is absolutely NO WAY they could have been on the planchet before the coin was struck.
They were not made by a die, therefore They had to be made by another coin!
As I wrote, this is an uncommon characteristic. I do not think these were intentionally made. Hopefully, this will get the discussion back on track and eliminate a bunch of theories.
PS I'm not an error expert either but I do look at coins rather closely.
I expect he is sitting back with a glass of red wine and he is thinking about how big of a moron I am and how my photo skills are terrible. He wont even bother with my lack of ability to discuss what I am seeing with the coin in hand
Nah this is still a bit more interesting than any random mangled parking lot find
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
@Coinstartled said:
This thread is rapidly expanding, Has the OP contacted JA and if so, what was his comment?
Yes, the OP contacted JA (see page 1 of the thread). He said he wasn't an expert on errors but the luster in the letters led him to believe it wasn't simply damage.
@jmlanzaf the high points are where you’d find something like this. Look at a double denomination overstrike. Generally you see evidence of the undertype at the high points.
@Insider2 your point #2 needs some expanding on. If you can have a squeeze job after a strike, please explain why you can’t have a squeeze job before the strike? Please also use lots of bold letters and emojis in your explanation.
For anyone who’s convinced that the coin has experienced post-strike damage, how does that affect whether you’d still be interested in acquiring it? Perhaps I’m in a very small minority, but from what I see in the images, I wouldn’t be bothered by it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@MFeld said:
For anyone who’s convinced that the coin has experienced post-strike damage, how does that affect whether you’d still be interested in acquiring it? Perhaps I’m in a very small minority, but from what I see in the images, I wouldn’t be bothered by it.
The BAD: Well it shouldn't have straight graded or received a sticker.
The GOOD: It's still a very attractive coin and as rim damage wasn't intentional I guess it would be price depending.
To Err Is Human.... To Collect Err's Is Just Too Much Darn Tootin Fun!
@BAJJERFAN said:
Why is everyone ignoring the rim damage on the obverse below the 1899? Does that have anything to do with the reverse issue?
I assume, that there was force applied to the obverse rim that generated the appearance on the reverse. I have no explanation for how much force would be required to make this perfect of an imprint other than something going on at the mint. Sitting in a bag would generate more bag marks and not have enough weight to produce this. But I am the ill informed as it relates to errors and coin production
@BAJJERFAN said:
Why is everyone ignoring the rim damage on the obverse below the 1899? Does that have anything to do with the reverse issue?
I assume, that there was force applied to the obverse rim that generated the appearance on the reverse. I have no explanation for how much for would be required to make this perfect of an imprint other than something going on at the mint. Sitting in a bag would generate more bag marks and not have enough weight to produce this. But I am the ill informed as it relates to errors and coin production
I'd posit that it would take a lot more force than the weight of a full bag [approx 80 pounds] to make an impression like that.
@BAJJERFAN said:
Why is everyone ignoring the rim damage on the obverse below the 1899? Does that have anything to do with the reverse issue?
I assume, that there was force applied to the obverse rim that generated the appearance on the reverse. I have no explanation for how much for would be required to make this perfect of an imprint other than something going on at the mint. Sitting in a bag would generate more bag marks and not have enough weight to produce this. But I am the ill informed as it relates to errors and coin production
I'd posit that it would take a lot more force than the weight of a full bag [approx 80 pounds] to make an impression like that.
@Broadstruck said:
Silver is not that hard... Magicians can bend silver spoons just using their minds
So you take two Morgans and lay the edge of one on the edge of the other and then stand on it and see how long it takes to get an impression like that. When you have two metals of identical hardness and composition, one of them is not going to be very good at striking quality impressions into the other.
.
edited to add, i now see there were 2 pages when i posted. i was basing my post on the first page only.
@Broadstruck said:
The letters would be raised if double struck...
But since they aren't this is simply PMD and not some mind bending mint error.
i gotta go down the rabbit hole, on this one, with you, for funsies.
IF, someone pressed a morgan into this one by any means, obviously the letters on the host coin are recessed.
this would also be the case IF another morgan got between the die and the host coin.
same look, different means; obv and rev.
i don't see any round-ish rim contact we would most likely see at both sides of the lettering from both of the aforementioned means.
IF the lettering is raised, which i don't think it is based on the MAX image - the letters S and T are recessed into the denticles - then the die didn't strike the coin without anything between. so that one is out imo.
these are the only 3 occurrences that come to me at this time. i can land on number 1 or 2 method as the effect would be nearly the same.
i don't mind being wrong, so i'll say legitimate error from the images because the imprinted letters are so similar in look to the rest of the coin. toning, dullness etc. - my opinion may change if i had the coin in hand. rotating a coin says a lot.
i still don't understand how there aren't curved imprints on either side but i guess the coin could have been tilted when struck by a die or a pmd hammer or whatever and that was enough to avoid the rims?
i concede that the obv could say more than the rev. about the legitimacy.
.
@MFeld said:
For anyone who’s convinced that the coin has experienced post-strike damage, how does that affect whether you’d still be interested in acquiring it? Perhaps I’m in a very small minority, but from what I see in the images, I wouldn’t be bothered by it.
Good question. if convinced that it is PMD, I would not want to pay MS66 value for the coin. Raw for $100 or so, sure.
Wearing a dealer hat, Mr, Feld, would you feel comfortable selling the coin as labeled and stickered if you had doubts about the possibility of damage.
Should this coin be either in an error holder or a genuine holder when offered for resale or is the error/damage insignificant enough that it does not matter?
@MFeld said:
For anyone who’s convinced that the coin has experienced post-strike damage, how does that affect whether you’d still be interested in acquiring it? Perhaps I’m in a very small minority, but from what I see in the images, I wouldn’t be bothered by it.
Good question. if convinced that it is PMD, I would not want to pay MS66 value for the coin. Raw for $100 or so, sure.
Wearing a dealer hat, Mr, Feld, would you feel comfortable selling the coin as labeled and stickered if you had doubts about the possibility of damage.
Should this coin be either in an error holder or a genuine holder when offered for resale or is the error/damage insignificant enough that it does not matter?
If I had doubts about the possibility of damage, I'd either avoid the coin altogether or, if able to obtain it at an acceptable price, disclose the possible damage, when offering it for sale.
If error experts were to determine that the coin is not an error, I suppose that it should be in a genuine holder. That said, I see many straight grade coins that have post-production flaws/damage which bother me considerably more than what's seen on this one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@Broadstruck said:
Silver is not that hard... Magicians can bend silver spoons just using their minds
This is not a spoon. It is much thicker. As posted, it would take a lot of force to make these marks. Let's try to figure out how another struck coin could be impressed into this one (without damaging anything except the rim) while the coin is still in the coin press or otherwise. IMO, you cannot duplicate this characteristic this with a sledge hammer!
Maybe the coins were positioned just right in the bag and a frustrated gorilla sized angry mint employee slammed another bag down on them because he was peod he had to move the accumulating bags of dollars around for the umpteenth time!
@Broadstruck said:
Silver is not that hard... Magicians can bend silver spoons just using their minds
This is not a spoon. It is much thicker. As posted, it would take a lot of force to make these marks. Let's try to figure out how another struck coin could be impressed into this one (without damaging anything except the rim) while the coin is still in the coin press or otherwise. IMO, you cannot duplicate this characteristic this with a sledge hammer!
@Broadstruck said:
Silver is not that hard... Magicians can bend silver spoons just using their minds
This is not a spoon. It is much thicker. As posted, it would take a lot of force to make these marks. Let's try to figure out how another struck coin could be impressed into this one (without damaging anything except the rim) while the coin is still in the coin press or otherwise. IMO, you cannot duplicate this characteristic this with a sledge hammer!
I'd like to know what the depth of the letters are relative to the denticles. Why aren't the denticles damaged? I mean, there's a couple areas where the letters seem to bleed into the denticles but is the entire letter above the level of the denticles?
@Broadstruck said:
Silver is not that hard... Magicians can bend silver spoons just using their minds
This is not a spoon. It is much thicker. As posted, it would take a lot of force to make these marks. Let's try to figure out how another struck coin could be impressed into this one (without damaging anything except the rim) while the coin is still in the coin press or otherwise. IMO, you cannot duplicate this characteristic this with a sledge hammer!
I don't think you could do it while in the coin press. A Morgan is a big coin, you couldn't strike through a Morgan that didn't eject and not have a very weak strike elsewhere. On the other hand, if you struck the coin first, how did another struck coin get into the press for a second whack?
@Broadstruck said:
Silver is not that hard... Magicians can bend silver spoons just using their minds
This is not a spoon. It is much thicker. As posted, it would take a lot of force to make these marks. Let's try to figure out how another struck coin could be impressed into this one (without damaging anything except the rim) while the coin is still in the coin press or otherwise. IMO, you cannot duplicate this characteristic this with a sledge hammer!
I'd like to know what the depth of the letters are relative to the denticles. Why aren't the denticles damaged? I mean, there's a couple areas where the letters seem to bleed into the denticles but is the entire letter above the level of the denticles?
They are deep for what they are. I guess I'll need to look for my images of other examples so we can get to the bottom of this interesting characteristic.
Comments
The lettering in the field is raised, "A" points to the lighted edge, "B" to the shadowed edge. If the lettering on the rim was raised, the "A" and "B" should change places, I'd think.
These are from the True View.
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This is what I think it is.
Fred W, had it as PMD in the earlier thread. His opinion on errors is rarely incorrect.
I understand how the shadow line on the B of the letter S exists but explain it for the "front position towards the light" of the letter O
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If you take a mint state coin and use a round metal punch on it your just pushing the surface in.
The recessed hole would still have the same luster inside.
This was done by another freshly minted Morgan which also left the luster undisturbed.
Yes, Fred is The Man.
But I don't remember what kind of pictures we had then.
JA is also pretty reliable.
So explain the space between the denticle going into the S
This thread is rapidly expanding, Has the OP contacted JA and if so, what was his comment?
i just need to send it to those that know. I am obviously clueless. I am a bit nervous for this to become a coin in a genuine slab rather than as it is currently housed.
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The problem with the TV is that it looks like diffuse lighting.
JA beaned it.... I think the very first post of this thread includes his comments. he did not think it was PMD
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It helps to read the thread
Not sure I understand your question, but it appears that for the letter "O", it is brightest to the upper right, which would be the high point of the center of an incuse "O".
Or it could be something completely different.
this is why I was unable to tell for sure if it was incuse or not
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that seems right
That's what gets me. I don't know how it can simply be PMD. The letters just stop abruptly at the denticles.
Yes, the OP contacted JA (see page 1 of the thread). He said he wasn't an expert on errors but the luster in the letters led him to believe it wasn't simply damage.
Time to shine the bat signal into the sky... Calling @FredWeinberg
OK you guys got me. I saw yesterday that the coin passed the rigorous standards of cac and received a bean. You also noted that JA indicated that he wanted to talk to you, presumably about the coin that we are discussing.
Did you call him or not? If so, what did he say other than Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year?
instead of “I’ll let the experts explain it to me”, how about “how could this happen and look like it does?”
Then this might be more interesting.
One way it can happen and look like this is that a blank planchet had letters squeezed into it and then was struck. That would not be PMD.
There are other ways this can happen as well.
I expect he is sitting back with a glass of red wine and he is thinking about how big of a moron I am and how my photo skills are terrible. He wont even bother with my lack of ability to discuss what I am seeing with the coin in hand
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I think he was confused and suggested sending it back in to the experts. Could be a red dragon special.
Given the location of the letters, why weren't they struck out? That's a high point of the coin. You'd also think the letters would not be so crisp with all the metal movement.
As I recall, coins with this characteristic are not considered damaged and are straight graded. This coin shows more letters than usual which may tip the equation enough that they must be mentioned.
I've looked for some of my images of this characteristic but no luck so far and to tell the truth, I probably will not bother to waste more time.
Chew on this:
As I wrote, this is an uncommon characteristic. I do not think these were intentionally made. Hopefully, this will get the discussion back on track and eliminate a bunch of theories.
PS I'm not an error expert either but I do look at coins rather closely.
Nah this is still a bit more interesting than any random mangled parking lot find
Thank you for the clarification, JM.
@jmlanzaf the high points are where you’d find something like this. Look at a double denomination overstrike. Generally you see evidence of the undertype at the high points.
@Insider2 your point #2 needs some expanding on. If you can have a squeeze job after a strike, please explain why you can’t have a squeeze job before the strike? Please also use lots of bold letters and emojis in your explanation.
Ok.
Please explain why you can’t have a squeeze job before the strike?
Think about it and I guarantee that you'll come up with the answer all by yourself. I'm leaving the office for home.
Good Night all.
I won't step between two numismatic goliaths from digital images alone. Would have to see the coin in hand.
For anyone who’s convinced that the coin has experienced post-strike damage, how does that affect whether you’d still be interested in acquiring it? Perhaps I’m in a very small minority, but from what I see in the images, I wouldn’t be bothered by it.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
The BAD: Well it shouldn't have straight graded or received a sticker.
The GOOD: It's still a very attractive coin and as rim damage wasn't intentional I guess it would be price depending.
Why is everyone ignoring the rim damage on the obverse below the 1899? Does that have anything to do with the reverse issue?
Someone needs to take a couple cull Morgans with Unc deteail (scrubbed 1921s, for example) and try to reproduce this.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I assume, that there was force applied to the obverse rim that generated the appearance on the reverse. I have no explanation for how much force would be required to make this perfect of an imprint other than something going on at the mint. Sitting in a bag would generate more bag marks and not have enough weight to produce this. But I am the ill informed as it relates to errors and coin production
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I'd posit that it would take a lot more force than the weight of a full bag [approx 80 pounds] to make an impression like that.
Or even the weight of a big stack of bags.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
Silver is not that hard... Magicians can bend silver spoons just using their minds
So you take two Morgans and lay the edge of one on the edge of the other and then stand on it and see how long it takes to get an impression like that. When you have two metals of identical hardness and composition, one of them is not going to be very good at striking quality impressions into the other.
.
edited to add, i now see there were 2 pages when i posted. i was basing my post on the first page only.
i gotta go down the rabbit hole, on this one, with you, for funsies.
IF, someone pressed a morgan into this one by any means, obviously the letters on the host coin are recessed.
this would also be the case IF another morgan got between the die and the host coin.
same look, different means; obv and rev.
i don't see any round-ish rim contact we would most likely see at both sides of the lettering from both of the aforementioned means.
IF the lettering is raised, which i don't think it is based on the MAX image - the letters S and T are recessed into the denticles - then the die didn't strike the coin without anything between. so that one is out imo.
these are the only 3 occurrences that come to me at this time. i can land on number 1 or 2 method as the effect would be nearly the same.
i don't mind being wrong, so i'll say legitimate error from the images because the imprinted letters are so similar in look to the rest of the coin. toning, dullness etc. - my opinion may change if i had the coin in hand. rotating a coin says a lot.
i still don't understand how there aren't curved imprints on either side but i guess the coin could have been tilted when struck by a die or a pmd hammer or whatever and that was enough to avoid the rims?
i concede that the obv could say more than the rev. about the legitimacy.
.
Good question. if convinced that it is PMD, I would not want to pay MS66 value for the coin. Raw for $100 or so, sure.
Wearing a dealer hat, Mr, Feld, would you feel comfortable selling the coin as labeled and stickered if you had doubts about the possibility of damage.
Should this coin be either in an error holder or a genuine holder when offered for resale or is the error/damage insignificant enough that it does not matter?
I sent Brett a message as recommended by JA. I will see what is recommended whenever he has a chance to reply
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If I had doubts about the possibility of damage, I'd either avoid the coin altogether or, if able to obtain it at an acceptable price, disclose the possible damage, when offering it for sale.
If error experts were to determine that the coin is not an error, I suppose that it should be in a genuine holder. That said, I see many straight grade coins that have post-production flaws/damage which bother me considerably more than what's seen on this one.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
Too much ado... I'm on the edge of my seat wondering what Brett will say.
This is not a spoon. It is much thicker.
As posted, it would take a lot of force to make these marks. Let's try to figure out how another struck coin could be impressed into this one (without damaging anything except the rim) while the coin is still in the coin press or otherwise. IMO, you cannot duplicate this characteristic this with a sledge hammer! 
Maybe the coins were positioned just right in the bag and a frustrated gorilla sized angry mint employee slammed another bag down on them because he was peod he had to move the accumulating bags of dollars around for the umpteenth time!
I'd like to know what the depth of the letters are relative to the denticles. Why aren't the denticles damaged? I mean, there's a couple areas where the letters seem to bleed into the denticles but is the entire letter above the level of the denticles?
I don't think you could do it while in the coin press. A Morgan is a big coin, you couldn't strike through a Morgan that didn't eject and not have a very weak strike elsewhere. On the other hand, if you struck the coin first, how did another struck coin get into the press for a second whack?
They are deep for what they are. I guess I'll need to look for my images of other examples so we can get to the bottom of this interesting characteristic.