So... let’s assume it is PMD whether from mint bags, accidental, or intentional. Given the degree of it should it be straight graded or should it really be details/bagged?
Personally, I think it should be straight graded with a slight knock for the PMD.
@TurtleCat said:
So... let’s assume it is PMD whether from mint bags, accidental, or intentional. Given the degree of it should it be straight graded or should it really be details/bagged?
Personally, I think it should be straight graded with a slight knock for the PMD.
Now, I'm kind of on the fence....
Initially, (well, later than initially), I agreed with you. If a reeding mark is just considered in the grade, then maybe this should to if we assume it happened in storage. (Forklift driving over a bag of Morgans?? )
But now that we know that a likely, (if not only), way to make this involves vices and malicious intent, I'm not so sure. If this type of thing becomes valued...then they would be coming out of the woodwork, and maybe "damaged" is the right way to go....
@savitale said:
This is a really intriguing mystery. For my own education I decided to test out a theory experimentally. I purchased two “BU” Morgan Dollars from APMEX. Coin A is the “hammer coin”. Coin B is the “planchet”. In this experiment, I will try to align coins A and B, and reproduce the coin in the OP using a bench vise.
Here are pictures of the coins as-received from APMEX.
Coin A:
Coin B:
Here is a picture of the two coins aligned as I suppose they would have been for the coin in question. They are taped together with Scotch tape. The black marks on the rim are Sharpie used to help align the coins.
This is the vise used in the experiment. It is a small bench vise. I don’t know how much force it can apply, but I am not a big guy so I’m confident someone with a bigger vise or stronger arms could apply double the force, at least.
This shows the coins in the vise after tightening. It is important to see that the coins now form a V-shape. They only contact very near the rim of coin B.
Here are pictures of the coins after the experiment.
Coin A:
Coin B:
This is a zoom-in of the “area of interest” on coin B:
My conclusion from this experiment is that it is possible to observe an effect very similar to that in the OP by applying targeted pressure to two coins after they have left the mint.
I think this was the type of demonstration/example that, although possibly not 100% conclusive, was what some posters were looking for to explain the cause.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
I'd like to hear from the multiple graders at PCGS that thought this was an MS66 gem specimen. (I concur with that original assessment.) I bet they never even noticed the "damage".
I think it's outrageous that it will be returned to @davids5104 with such a downgrade.
Did he ever ask for it to be reconsidered? Can PCGS do this without offering the owner an apology at least?
@rip_f said:
I'd like to hear from the multiple graders at PCGS that thought this was an MS66 gem specimen. (I concur with that original assessment.) I bet they never even noticed the "damage".
I think it's outrageous that it will be returned to @davids5104 with such a downgrade.
Did he ever ask for it to be reconsidered? Can PCGS do this without offering the owner an apology at least?
I did ask. The apology is the PCGS guarantee. I mentioned somewhere else, I believe, that I wondered if the graders had reviewed any of the commentary within this thread for ideas about the nature of this occurring. I am also disappointed that Fred said it should be returned as is, but then told Mr. Feltner it should be PMD 10 days later. I understand people change minds and so it may be just that, and nothing else, but still bugs me a bit.
Regarding, the @savitale "experiment", I love it!! I think it increases the likelihood of this being PMD, based on my ill-informed knowledge of coin making. It proved to me, human generated pressures can produce lettering on the rim. My coin was provided more pressure than the example, but proof of concept exists. All this is to say that I still do not know if this is an error or not. I am no authority, but my sleep is less disrupted by the feeling of getting shafted.
It’s just my opinion but if PCGS returns it raw or details they should compensate you for the price of the 66. To do less and chalk it up to a mistake isn’t right, IMO.
@Baley said:
Isn't it so weird that the exact same phenomenon if judged "accidental" is worth more and if "artificial" is worth less?
Toning is like that too.
Trippy.
It’s not weird to me. If something is accidental and not likely to be replicated, it can be rarer and more valuable than if it’s artificial and subject to being produced in quantities. That said, if a particular accidental phenomenon becomes common, its value can be much lower.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I clicked on the little bookmark icon, then on "all bookmarks" in the dropdown . Then found the thread on the list and clickedon the gold star, which turned it into a hollow, empty star (!) ending the notifications.
@Baley said:
Isn't it so weird that the exact same phenomenon if judged "accidental" is worth more and if "artificial" is worth less?
Toning is like that too.
Trippy.
Yes, 100%. One of my beefs with "errors" is that coins that are very OBVIOUSLY not actually "errors" but are mint experiments are still slabbed as genuine errors. One perfect example of that is this abomination:
While I agree that @savitale showed this type of error could have been a vice job with a bit more care, others are not given the same 20+ pages of scrutiny. That is part of the TPG game, us collectors pay for an opinion at the end of the day This post has been very informative and also devolved into a sh**show...
@rip_f said:
I'd like to hear from the multiple graders at PCGS that thought this was an MS66 gem specimen. (I concur with that original assessment.) I bet they never even noticed the "damage".
LOL. You would lose that bet every time you played it!
I think we all know this MS66 coin is more likely to be an error than a vice job.
The graders agreed that it was a gem coin and so did JA.
I am not aware of the rules that govern the TPGs actions, so I won't speculate on their motivation for making this seemingly inexplicable change.
@ShadyDave said:
One of my beefs with "errors" is that coins that are very OBVIOUSLY not actually "errors" but are mint experiments are still slabbed as genuine errors. One perfect example of that is this abomination:
Hard to take it seriously when this sort of thing is legitimized. One wonders how a nail gets monetized, anyway.
@rip_f said:
I think we all know this MS66 coin is more likely to be an error than a vice job.
The graders agreed that it was a gem coin and so did JA.
I am not aware of the rules that govern the TPGs actions, so I won't speculate on their motivation for making this seemingly inexplicable change.
Before SOME coins leave the office with an "OFFICIAL" grade they have been discussed. It is not common but grades are changed, problem coin are straight graded, and straight graded coins become "detailed."
I'd rather own this coin in any grade/slab because characteristics like this are seen on large or heavy coins. If every member here looks at the $20 gold in their collection, we'll find several examples of letters and stars on the rims. The ONLY thing special about the $ is the number of characters that were transferred.
Thanks for taking the time to do that. To my untrained eye, the edge reeding looks compressed (vertically) and the flattened area on the obv. is textured, as if squeezed by a hard but not especially smooth surface. Does not look sheared, to me.
@messydesk said:
Anyone know how to turn off notifications for a thread?
At one point, when it was more interesting, you "bookmarked" it. Undo that. Same as removing an LOL or like
No, I replied to it about a thousand posts back. Once you do that, you get notified of additional replies, which is normally OK.
I got all the 1-off notifications of updates to the thread when I had it bookmarked. once I unbookmarked, then I don't get notified any longer....and, I have replied to the thread previously but am not getting notifications because of that.....
back for a question.... obviously neither of these "defects" are as obvious as the original, but are my eyes deceiving me for reverse lettering on the rim??? primarily between the "O and S"
Comments
So... let’s assume it is PMD whether from mint bags, accidental, or intentional. Given the degree of it should it be straight graded or should it really be details/bagged?
Personally, I think it should be straight graded with a slight knock for the PMD.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Straight.
Now, I'm kind of on the fence....
Initially, (well, later than initially), I agreed with you. If a reeding mark is just considered in the grade, then maybe this should to if we assume it happened in storage. (Forklift driving over a bag of Morgans??
)
But now that we know that a likely, (if not only), way to make this involves vices and malicious intent, I'm not so sure. If this type of thing becomes valued...then they would be coming out of the woodwork, and maybe "damaged" is the right way to go....
Tough call.
I think this was the type of demonstration/example that, although possibly not 100% conclusive, was what some posters were looking for to explain the cause.
The burden of proof is on the party making the claim, regardless of which crowd the claim comes from.
I'd like to hear from the multiple graders at PCGS that thought this was an MS66 gem specimen. (I concur with that original assessment.) I bet they never even noticed the "damage".
I think it's outrageous that it will be returned to @davids5104 with such a downgrade.
Did he ever ask for it to be reconsidered? Can PCGS do this without offering the owner an apology at least?
I did ask. The apology is the PCGS guarantee. I mentioned somewhere else, I believe, that I wondered if the graders had reviewed any of the commentary within this thread for ideas about the nature of this occurring. I am also disappointed that Fred said it should be returned as is, but then told Mr. Feltner it should be PMD 10 days later. I understand people change minds and so it may be just that, and nothing else, but still bugs me a bit.
Regarding, the @savitale "experiment", I love it!! I think it increases the likelihood of this being PMD, based on my ill-informed knowledge of coin making. It proved to me, human generated pressures can produce lettering on the rim. My coin was provided more pressure than the example, but proof of concept exists. All this is to say that I still do not know if this is an error or not. I am no authority, but my sleep is less disrupted by the feeling of getting shafted.
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It’s just my opinion but if PCGS returns it raw or details they should compensate you for the price of the 66. To do less and chalk it up to a mistake isn’t right, IMO.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Coin has value somewhere between melt and some big delusional number.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
As do the majority of all coins made from precious metal!
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
Isn't it so weird that the exact same phenomenon if judged "accidental" is worth more and if "artificial" is worth less?
Toning is like that too.
Trippy.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Anyone know how to turn off notifications for a thread?
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
At one point, when it was more interesting, you "bookmarked" it. Undo that. Same as removing an LOL or like
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It’s not weird to me. If something is accidental and not likely to be replicated, it can be rarer and more valuable than if it’s artificial and subject to being produced in quantities. That said, if a particular accidental phenomenon becomes common, its value can be much lower.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
No, I replied to it about a thousand posts back. Once you do that, you get notified of additional replies, which is normally OK.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
I clicked on the little bookmark icon, then on "all bookmarks" in the dropdown . Then found the thread on the list and clickedon the gold star, which turned it into a hollow, empty star (!) ending the notifications.
Yes, 100%. One of my beefs with "errors" is that coins that are very OBVIOUSLY not actually "errors" but are mint experiments are still slabbed as genuine errors. One perfect example of that is this abomination:
While I agree that @savitale showed this type of error could have been a vice job with a bit more care, others are not given the same 20+ pages of scrutiny. That is part of the TPG game, us collectors pay for an opinion at the end of the day This post has been very informative and also devolved into a sh**show...
LOL. You would lose that bet every time you played it!
I think we all know this MS66 coin is more likely to be an error than a vice job.
The graders agreed that it was a gem coin and so did JA.
I am not aware of the rules that govern the TPGs actions, so I won't speculate on their motivation for making this seemingly inexplicable change.
Hard to take it seriously when this sort of thing is legitimized. One wonders how a nail gets monetized, anyway.
Before SOME coins leave the office with an "OFFICIAL" grade they have been discussed. It is not common but grades are changed, problem coin are straight graded, and straight graded coins become "detailed."
I'd rather own this coin in any grade/slab because characteristics like this are seen on large or heavy coins. If every member here looks at the $20 gold in their collection, we'll find several examples of letters and stars on the rims. The ONLY thing special about the $ is the number of characters that were transferred.
Got the coin back a day or two ago... added photos of the rim. Thought you all may want to see.
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Thanks for taking the time to do that. To my untrained eye, the edge reeding looks compressed (vertically) and the flattened area on the obv. is textured, as if squeezed by a hard but not especially smooth surface. Does not look sheared, to me.
I got all the 1-off notifications of updates to the thread when I had it bookmarked. once I unbookmarked, then I don't get notified any longer....and, I have replied to the thread previously but am not getting notifications because of that.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Those new photos should inspire another thousand comments...
Smitten with DBLCs.
back for a question.... obviously neither of these "defects" are as obvious as the original, but are my eyes deceiving me for reverse lettering on the rim??? primarily between the "O and S"
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transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
here is a reminder of what would be in same area
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here is the full Trueview. sorry i did not post earlier
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I just see a few stray marks/dings.
Thanks for looking. The flattened obverse rim, or my belief of it, made me "see" something on the reverse.
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You made me look. Pulled out my raw Morgan's, and my 1899-O has.....nothing of interest.