@OriginalDan said:
I think people are offering you money because it’s an interesting coin that we’d all like to hold in hand, but also because we sympathized with you.
Now it appears you have dollar signs in your eyes, which is too bad. Lots of folks were rooting for you, myself included.
I appreciate that! Your comment reads like people are offering me money because they feel bad with the PMD decision. If that was what you meant that is inaccurate. This coin has had 2 destinies for me, straight grade 66 in my collection or a sold coin if any other option. I apologize if the green in my eyes is too blinding:)
I have thought about this post and this coin for months, more than anyone else. There is a lot behind the scenes also. As I said, I may sit on it for a bit, or send it ATS, or sell it. I do not collect errors or damaged coins, or those in between. I believe I could enjoy another coin or coins with its proceeds, so I will likely sell it
I have thought about this post and this coin for months, more than anyone else. There is a lot behind the scenes also. As I said, I may sit on it for a bit, or send it ATS, or sell it. I do not collect errors or damaged coins, or those in between. I believe I could enjoy another coin or coins with its proceeds, so I will likely sell it
To each, his own. Personally. I'd rather have a special coin than a common widget. I guess that's why I collect trade dollars with chopmarks by minor variety! LOL
strike while fire is hot, or before savant equivocates on this as well. beat and beat that horse it ain't awakenin. and believe high offer thus far tendered from this corner, at time offered = 750 but with gold up now 850. put it out there now, it isn't gonna get any better. certainly you're not in love with it, and assuredly know what you'd accept. c'mon already, yap is now value consuming and becoming increasingly redundant or off-topic. post when listed pls
This is a really intriguing mystery. For my own education I decided to test out a theory experimentally. I purchased two “BU” Morgan Dollars from APMEX. Coin A is the “hammer coin”. Coin B is the “planchet”. In this experiment, I will try to align coins A and B, and reproduce the coin in the OP using a bench vise.
Here are pictures of the coins as-received from APMEX.
Coin A:
Coin B:
Here is a picture of the two coins aligned as I suppose they would have been for the coin in question. They are taped together with Scotch tape. The black marks on the rim are Sharpie used to help align the coins.
This is the vise used in the experiment. It is a small bench vise. I don’t know how much force it can apply, but I am not a big guy so I’m confident someone with a bigger vise or stronger arms could apply double the force, at least.
This shows the coins in the vise after tightening. It is important to see that the coins now form a V-shape. They only contact very near the rim of coin B.
Here are pictures of the coins after the experiment.
Coin A:
Coin B:
This is a zoom-in of the “area of interest” on coin B:
My conclusion from this experiment is that it is possible to observe an effect very similar to that in the OP by applying targeted pressure to two coins after they have left the mint.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@Bochiman said:
"summoned" does not = "contacted".
So, from the responses since my post, it does not sound like anyone actually involved with this has contacted, actually CONTACTED, Dan Carr, to get his opinion. I'm not talking about him coming to the thread and getting beat up. Contact can occur offline as well....if there is interest.
He's the only board member I know with his own USMint coin press....
Mr. Carr posts here at least weekly. I assure you that he is aware of this coin although no one may have actually "contacted" him.
Sure, he posts here frequently. Does he read EVERY thread? I don't know. I guess since YOU are SURE that he is aware of this thread, then he must.
Myself? I think it is reasonable to assume that he has, but since I haven't seen him post to it, nor have I been in contact to hear from him that he is, I won't put myself out there to assure anyone that he is aware of this coin.
Just me, as I don't believe in hyperbole and pure assumptions to try to support my positions.
@savitale said:
This is a really intriguing mystery. For my own education I decided to test out a theory experimentally. I purchased two “BU” Morgan Dollars from APMEX. Coin A is the “hammer coin”. Coin B is the “planchet”. In this experiment, I will try to align coins A and B, and reproduce the coin in the OP using a bench vise.
Here are pictures of the coins as-received from APMEX.
My conclusion from this experiment is that it is possible to observe an effect very similar to that in the OP by applying targeted pressure to two coins after they have left the mint.
@ms70 said: @savitale, Great work! Is there any evidence of metal movement where the jaws came contact with the coins? Particularly the rims and high points?
Edit: Looks like on coin A there's a little flattening on the rim in the space between PLURIBUS and UNUM.
The vise clamps the obverse of both coins near the date. PLURIBUS and UNUM are not affected. My vice has a shallow crosshatch pattern on the jaws and there is some evidence this transferred to the obverse rim of coin B near the date. If I had taken the time to insert a metal shim or something to cover the crosshatching I'm pretty sure there would be very little visible evidence. The reeding is completely intact. I can take zoomed-in pictures of that area if people want.
Very interesting experiment. If the original coin in question was made in such a manner, I wonder what the point of doing it was? If it was done, it doesn’t seem like it was something the perpetrator capitalized on financially. And why do it on a MS66 coin?
I just took a cull Morgan and laid another partially over it so the denticals would line up to the rim of the under coin. Then I wracked it with a nail hammer. Proved nothing.
PS The "bumps" on the rim are dentical impressions into the metal.
PSS This mint error is now for sale.
LOL, I should have offset the coins more so the letters were impressed rather than just the denticles and used a vice. The three marks on the denticals above the "D" are the tops of letters .
Anyway, I think @savitale has shut up all the folks who laughed at my experiment. What he has proved to me is this characteristic possibly did not happen accidently. As I posted several times, incuse designs on the rims of coins are very scarce but NOT UNKNOWN. What made this coin "special" is the DEPTH of the letters and the amount of the rim affected by so many letters.
I just took a cull Morgan and laid another partially over it so the denticals would line up to the rim of the under coin. Then I wracked it with a nail hammer. Proved nothing.
PS The "bumps" on the rim are dentical impressions into the metal.
PSS This mint error is now for sale.
LOL, I should have offset the coins more so the letters were impressed rather than just the denticles and used a vice. The three marks on the denticals above the "D" are the tops of letters .
Anyway, I think @savitale has shut up all the folks who laughed at my experiment. What he has proved to me is this characteristic possibly did not happen accidently.
Savitale's work proved how it can happen but not by who and how. It's still not proven it didn't happen at the mint with mint machinery. There is no motive attached to this coin. It was never hawked by anyone as a crazy mint error that we know of and it's an MS66 specimen. There's no motive to do this so carefully to a beautiful coin and maintain it's pristine condition other than to scam someone into buying a crazy mint error. There's no evidence of that.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
In a virtually infinite universe, very unlikely things happen with some regularity. Cool vice job. Now, how to do this and create the obverse rim hit/shave/defect (without distortion to the adjacent denticles) at the same time?
One or the other isn’t so hard to explain. That the coin shows both is what is so interesting to me.
The next experiment I would propose to Dan Carr is this.......
Take the @savitale coin, shave off a bunch of material opposite the lettering and restrike it. I’d be interested to know if a host planchet (coin), artificially thin in this area would see enough strike pressure in this particular part of the rim to efface the incuse lettering. If we could do that, and the lettering remained, it would strengthen the double-struck at the mint hypothesis.
@Baley said:
The fact that a fake brockage can be made at home does Not prove that the coin in question not a real brockage from the mint.
Edit to add: but it sure doesn't help strengthen the case that it is😉
OK, here's what happened. Coin A (becomes the coin making the impression) is struck. The feed fingers begin to push it off ther press bet but it gets flipped up into the air and in the milliseconds that the next coin drops on the die and is struck it drops down precisely over that struck coin "B" and both get smashed together. Nice trick.
@Baley said:
The fact that a fake brockage can be made at home does Not prove that the coin in question not a real brockage from the mint.
Edit to add: but it sure doesn't help strengthen the case that it is😉
OK, here's what happened. Coin A (becomes the coin making the impression) is struck. The feed fingers begin to push it off ther press bet but it gets flipped up into the air and in the milliseconds that the next coin drops on the die and is struck it drops down precisely over that struck coin "B" and both get smashed together. Nice trick.
Did the presses in 1899 operate at millisecond speed? (I'm asking seriously, not being a jerk).
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
@Baley said:
The fact that a fake brockage can be made at home does Not prove that the coin in question not a real brockage from the mint.
Edit to add: but it sure doesn't help strengthen the case that it is😉
OK, here's what happened. Coin A (becomes the coin making the impression) is struck. The feed fingers begin to push it off ther press bet but it gets flipped up into the air and in the milliseconds that the next coin drops on the die and is struck it drops down precisely over that struck coin "B" and both get smashed together. Nice trick.
Did the presses in 1899 operate at millisecond speed? (I'm asking seriously, not being a jerk).
I stand corrected. In an attempt to show the foolishness of the "theory," milliseconds was too much of an exaggeration!
AFAIK they were using knuckle presses that were still in use well into the Twentieth Century. I'd say they worked at a rate of less than a half second per strike. I didn't put a stopwatch on one but they were running like bang, bang, bang, bang as fast as you can read this. And these presses were striking either two or four coins at a time. I don't remember a press operating with a single die in the 1970's. I also don't know when they were phased out. Nevertheless, their operation was the same. Let's allow for a slow down to strike dollars. IMO, they would still be striking coins at least one per second.
@savitale solved it. Very cool. Fred is right after all. Good call Fred! I’m very surprised this can be done without affecting the denticles very much.
@scubafuel said: @savitale solved it. Very cool. Fred is right after all. Good call Fred! I’m very surprised this can be done without affecting the denticles very much.
Agreed. Very good work savitale. Someone should reimburse him for the cost not it - touches nose. crap. im not supposed to touch my nose at work !!!
@scubafuel said: @savitale solved it. Very cool. Fred is right after all. Good call Fred! I’m very surprised this can be done without affecting the denticles very much.
Nothing has been solved except the mechanics of it. It has not been proven by what means it happened or disproven that it happened in mint machinery. It's just a very premature chance for one side of this argument to declare victory.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
To be fair, although it has been demonstrated that this could have been done outside the mint, it's not proof, however, that it couldn't have happened inside the mint.
@MasonG said:
To be fair, although it has been demonstrated that this could have been done outside the mint, it's not proof, however, that it couldn't have happened inside the mint.
Just sayin'.
Proof that it can happen as PMD, with experts claiming it cant happen at the US Mint is enough to keep it out of us mint error holders - and for the general public to be assured of the result after the disasterous announement of the decision
Ya gots to explain a mechanism that accounts for what we see on both sides of the coin. @savitale has contributed enormously, but it ain’t the whole story yet.
IMO, that’s what makes this coin soooooooo much more interesting than just incuse letters on one rim.
keep in mind this coin was only worth a dollar for more than half of its history. This "damage" may have been done 3 seconds after strike or 5 years. It would have represented a shiny coin of a dollar significance at that time
Guy comes up to the table with a 1943 copper cent. You tell him it is an altered coin. He tells you "the story." You patiently listen and repeat that it is an altered coin. He asks how you can tell. Fifty years of experience (there is a test cut on the rim where bright zinc shows through). He tells you you are an ignorant idiot and cannot prove anything! He knows the coin is a genuine mint error. Hope springs eternal.
LOL. Always remember that very often the most complicated explanation turns out to be incorrect!
@Nysoto said: @savitale , can you post a close-up image of the obverse affected area of your experiment coin, to compare with the OP coin? Thanks.
Sure. This is the area before the experiment:
This is the area after:
The regularly spaced v-shaped marks (raised) are transferred from the vise. It is not very easy to see from the photo but the rim transitions from being rounded (normal) to flat (squished) at 4th star up on the right side, through the date area, to the between the 2nd and 3rd star on the left side.
@MasonG said:
To be fair, although it has been demonstrated that this could have been done outside the mint, it's not proof, however, that it couldn't have happened inside the mint.
Just sayin'.
We also haven't proven that it isn't a Martian counterfeit or even just a Chinese counterfeit. But I'm not sure why anyone thinks the burden should be on anyone but the "Mint error" people. You claim it's a Mint error, you need to be able to explain how it could happen in Mint machinery. That remains lacking.
I think it is the first Omega counterfeit. The Omega is very tiny and between reeds on the edge. Prove me wrong. Dare you.
@jmlanzaf said:
We also haven't proven that it isn't a Martian counterfeit or even just a Chinese counterfeit. But I'm not sure why anyone thinks the burden should be on anyone but the "Mint error" people. You claim it's a Mint error, you need to be able to explain how it could happen in Mint machinery. That remains lacking.
I'm not claiming anything other than the fact that the 1921 dollar above being altered outside the mint does not prove that the coin in the original post wasn't created by some sort of equipment malfunction in the minting process inside the mint.
@rugerdoc1 said: @davids5104-- offer retracted. had a shot, muffed it. brutalized it like covid-19 & opec+ battering equities. next time strike while fire hot
I apologize for not responding. I was unable to understand your post that was apparently an offer. I did not even realize that was an offer due to the exotic way you made it. thanks for your interest anyhow.
David
@jmlanzaf said:
We also haven't proven that it isn't a Martian counterfeit or even just a Chinese counterfeit. But I'm not sure why anyone thinks the burden should be on anyone but the "Mint error" people. You claim it's a Mint error, you need to be able to explain how it could happen in Mint machinery. That remains lacking.
I'm not claiming anything other than the fact that the 1921 dollar above being altered outside the mint does not prove that the coin in the original post wasn't created by some sort of equipment malfunction in the minting process inside the mint.
I agree. But, again, I don't think the burden is on the PMD crowd. It's on the error crowd.
So... let’s assume it is PMD whether from mint bags, accidental, or intentional. Given the degree of it should it be straight graded or should it really be details/bagged?
Personally, I think it should be straight graded with a slight knock for the PMD.
@TurtleCat said:
So... let’s assume it is PMD whether from mint bags, accidental, or intentional. Given the degree of it should it be straight graded or should it really be details/bagged?
Personally, I think it should be straight graded with a slight knock for the PMD.
Now, I'm kind of on the fence....
Initially, (well, later than initially), I agreed with you. If a reeding mark is just considered in the grade, then maybe this should to if we assume it happened in storage. (Forklift driving over a bag of Morgans?? )
But now that we know that a likely, (if not only), way to make this involves vices and malicious intent, I'm not so sure. If this type of thing becomes valued...then they would be coming out of the woodwork, and maybe "damaged" is the right way to go....
@savitale said:
This is a really intriguing mystery. For my own education I decided to test out a theory experimentally. I purchased two “BU” Morgan Dollars from APMEX. Coin A is the “hammer coin”. Coin B is the “planchet”. In this experiment, I will try to align coins A and B, and reproduce the coin in the OP using a bench vise.
Here are pictures of the coins as-received from APMEX.
Coin A:
Coin B:
Here is a picture of the two coins aligned as I suppose they would have been for the coin in question. They are taped together with Scotch tape. The black marks on the rim are Sharpie used to help align the coins.
This is the vise used in the experiment. It is a small bench vise. I don’t know how much force it can apply, but I am not a big guy so I’m confident someone with a bigger vise or stronger arms could apply double the force, at least.
This shows the coins in the vise after tightening. It is important to see that the coins now form a V-shape. They only contact very near the rim of coin B.
Here are pictures of the coins after the experiment.
Coin A:
Coin B:
This is a zoom-in of the “area of interest” on coin B:
My conclusion from this experiment is that it is possible to observe an effect very similar to that in the OP by applying targeted pressure to two coins after they have left the mint.
I think this was the type of demonstration/example that, although possibly not 100% conclusive, was what some posters were looking for to explain the cause.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Comments
I appreciate that! Your comment reads like people are offering me money because they feel bad with the PMD decision. If that was what you meant that is inaccurate. This coin has had 2 destinies for me, straight grade 66 in my collection or a sold coin if any other option. I apologize if the green in my eyes is too blinding:)
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I have thought about this post and this coin for months, more than anyone else. There is a lot behind the scenes also. As I said, I may sit on it for a bit, or send it ATS, or sell it. I do not collect errors or damaged coins, or those in between. I believe I could enjoy another coin or coins with its proceeds, so I will likely sell it
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
To each, his own. Personally. I'd rather have a special coin than a common widget. I guess that's why I collect trade dollars with chopmarks by minor variety! LOL
I salute you. And good luck, sir.
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
not to bag the elephant in the room but...wingtip
jk, the most concise, erudite, and blunt post in these 1000+...thank you
This is a really intriguing mystery. For my own education I decided to test out a theory experimentally. I purchased two “BU” Morgan Dollars from APMEX. Coin A is the “hammer coin”. Coin B is the “planchet”. In this experiment, I will try to align coins A and B, and reproduce the coin in the OP using a bench vise.
Here are pictures of the coins as-received from APMEX.
Coin A:
Coin B:
Here is a picture of the two coins aligned as I suppose they would have been for the coin in question. They are taped together with Scotch tape. The black marks on the rim are Sharpie used to help align the coins.
This is the vise used in the experiment. It is a small bench vise. I don’t know how much force it can apply, but I am not a big guy so I’m confident someone with a bigger vise or stronger arms could apply double the force, at least.
This shows the coins in the vise after tightening. It is important to see that the coins now form a V-shape. They only contact very near the rim of coin B.
Here are pictures of the coins after the experiment.
Coin A:
Coin B:
This is a zoom-in of the “area of interest” on coin B:
My conclusion from this experiment is that it is possible to observe an effect very similar to that in the OP by applying targeted pressure to two coins after they have left the mint.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Thank you for the max effort!
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Sure, he posts here frequently. Does he read EVERY thread? I don't know. I guess since YOU are SURE that he is aware of this thread, then he must.
Myself? I think it is reasonable to assume that he has, but since I haven't seen him post to it, nor have I been in contact to hear from him that he is, I won't put myself out there to assure anyone that he is aware of this coin.
Just me, as I don't believe in hyperbole and pure assumptions to try to support my positions.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Dang. @savitale For a quickie, taped together experiment, that looks a lot closer to the original coin than I was expecting.
Damn
@savitale, Great work! Is there any evidence of metal movement where the jaws came contact with the coins? Particularly the rims and high points?
Edit: Looks like on coin A there's a little flattening on the rim in the space between PLURIBUS and UNUM.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Great Job!
Makes sense to me.
Wow. an impressive result. no "special" tools required.
@savitale you just made a $500 coin! Congrats!
On a serious note: nice job!!
The vise clamps the obverse of both coins near the date. PLURIBUS and UNUM are not affected. My vice has a shallow crosshatch pattern on the jaws and there is some evidence this transferred to the obverse rim of coin B near the date. If I had taken the time to insert a metal shim or something to cover the crosshatching I'm pretty sure there would be very little visible evidence. The reeding is completely intact. I can take zoomed-in pictures of that area if people want.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
Very interesting experiment. If the original coin in question was made in such a manner, I wonder what the point of doing it was? If it was done, it doesn’t seem like it was something the perpetrator capitalized on financially. And why do it on a MS66 coin?
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
LOL, I should have offset the coins more so the letters were impressed rather than just the denticles and used a vice. The three marks on the denticals above the "D" are the tops of letters .
Anyway, I think @savitale has shut up all the folks who laughed at my experiment. What he has proved to me is this characteristic possibly did not happen accidently. As I posted several times, incuse designs on the rims of coins are very scarce but NOT UNKNOWN. What made this coin "special" is the DEPTH of the letters and the amount of the rim affected by so many letters.
The fact that a fake brockage can be made at home does Not prove that the coin in question not a real brockage from the mint.
Edit to add: but it sure doesn't help strengthen the case that it is😉
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Savitale's work proved how it can happen but not by who and how. It's still not proven it didn't happen at the mint with mint machinery. There is no motive attached to this coin. It was never hawked by anyone as a crazy mint error that we know of and it's an MS66 specimen. There's no motive to do this so carefully to a beautiful coin and maintain it's pristine condition other than to scam someone into buying a crazy mint error. There's no evidence of that.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
In a virtually infinite universe, very unlikely things happen with some regularity. Cool vice job. Now, how to do this and create the obverse rim hit/shave/defect (without distortion to the adjacent denticles) at the same time?
One or the other isn’t so hard to explain. That the coin shows both is what is so interesting to me.
The next experiment I would propose to Dan Carr is this.......
Take the @savitale coin, shave off a bunch of material opposite the lettering and restrike it. I’d be interested to know if a host planchet (coin), artificially thin in this area would see enough strike pressure in this particular part of the rim to efface the incuse lettering. If we could do that, and the lettering remained, it would strengthen the double-struck at the mint hypothesis.
@savitale , can you post a close-up image of the obverse affected area of your experiment coin, to compare with the OP coin? Thanks.
OK, here's what happened. Coin A (becomes the coin making the impression) is struck. The feed fingers begin to push it off ther press bet but it gets flipped up into the air and in the milliseconds that the next coin drops on the die and is struck it drops down precisely over that struck coin "B" and both get smashed together. Nice trick.
Next person to say, "Every coin has a story" gets a punch in the nose.
Did the presses in 1899 operate at millisecond speed? (I'm asking seriously, not being a jerk).
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Interesting stuff!
My YouTube Channel
I stand corrected. In an attempt to show the foolishness of the "theory," milliseconds was too much of an exaggeration!
AFAIK they were using knuckle presses that were still in use well into the Twentieth Century. I'd say they worked at a rate of less than a half second per strike. I didn't put a stopwatch on one but they were running like bang, bang, bang, bang as fast as you can read this. And these presses were striking either two or four coins at a time. I don't remember a press operating with a single die in the 1970's. I also don't know when they were phased out. Nevertheless, their operation was the same. Let's allow for a slow down to strike dollars. IMO, they would still be striking coins at least one per second.
@savitale solved it. Very cool. Fred is right after all. Good call Fred! I’m very surprised this can be done without affecting the denticles very much.
Fred knows his stuff I'd say...
My YouTube Channel
If I were Fred, I'd pop back into the thread right now.
"Ah HA! Take that, Beeches!!"
Fred be like:
Agreed. Very good work savitale. Someone should reimburse him for the cost
not it - touches nose. crap. im not supposed to touch my nose at work !!!
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Nothing has been solved except the mechanics of it. It has not been proven by what means it happened or disproven that it happened in mint machinery. It's just a very premature chance for one side of this argument to declare victory.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
To be fair, although it has been demonstrated that this could have been done outside the mint, it's not proof, however, that it couldn't have happened inside the mint.
Just sayin'.
Proof that it can happen as PMD, with experts claiming it cant happen at the US Mint is enough to keep it out of us mint error holders - and for the general public to be assured of the result after the disasterous announement of the decision
Minor Variety Trade dollar's with chop marks set:
More Than It's Chopped Up To Be
Ya gots to explain a mechanism that accounts for what we see on both sides of the coin. @savitale has contributed enormously, but it ain’t the whole story yet.
IMO, that’s what makes this coin soooooooo much more interesting than just incuse letters on one rim.
keep in mind this coin was only worth a dollar for more than half of its history. This "damage" may have been done 3 seconds after strike or 5 years. It would have represented a shiny coin of a dollar significance at that time
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transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
Guy comes up to the table with a 1943 copper cent. You tell him it is an altered coin. He tells you "the story." You patiently listen and repeat that it is an altered coin. He asks how you can tell. Fifty years of experience (there is a test cut on the rim where bright zinc shows through). He tells you you are an ignorant idiot and cannot prove anything! He knows the coin is a genuine mint error. Hope springs eternal.
LOL. Always remember that very often the most complicated explanation turns out to be incorrect!
Sure. This is the area before the experiment:
This is the area after:
The regularly spaced v-shaped marks (raised) are transferred from the vise. It is not very easy to see from the photo but the rim transitions from being rounded (normal) to flat (squished) at 4th star up on the right side, through the date area, to the between the 2nd and 3rd star on the left side.
LIBERTY SEATED DIMES WITH MAJOR VARIETIES CIRCULATION STRIKES (1837-1891) digital album
We also haven't proven that it isn't a Martian counterfeit or even just a Chinese counterfeit. But I'm not sure why anyone thinks the burden should be on anyone but the "Mint error" people. You claim it's a Mint error, you need to be able to explain how it could happen in Mint machinery. That remains lacking.
I think it is the first Omega counterfeit. The Omega is very tiny and between reeds on the edge. Prove me wrong. Dare you.
@davids5104-- offer retracted. had a shot, muffed it. brutalized it like covid-19 & opec+ battering equities. next time strike while fire hot
I'm not claiming anything other than the fact that the 1921 dollar above being altered outside the mint does not prove that the coin in the original post wasn't created by some sort of equipment malfunction in the minting process inside the mint.
I apologize for not responding. I was unable to understand your post that was apparently an offer. I did not even realize that was an offer due to the exotic way you made it. thanks for your interest anyhow.
David
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
@savitale for ANA president. Or at least give him a custom title or something. Maybe “Mythbuster” or “Hero of page 21”
I agree. But, again, I don't think the burden is on the PMD crowd. It's on the error crowd.
So... let’s assume it is PMD whether from mint bags, accidental, or intentional. Given the degree of it should it be straight graded or should it really be details/bagged?
Personally, I think it should be straight graded with a slight knock for the PMD.
TurtleCat Gold Dollars
Straight.
Now, I'm kind of on the fence....
Initially, (well, later than initially), I agreed with you. If a reeding mark is just considered in the grade, then maybe this should to if we assume it happened in storage. (Forklift driving over a bag of Morgans??
)
But now that we know that a likely, (if not only), way to make this involves vices and malicious intent, I'm not so sure. If this type of thing becomes valued...then they would be coming out of the woodwork, and maybe "damaged" is the right way to go....
Tough call.
I think this was the type of demonstration/example that, although possibly not 100% conclusive, was what some posters were looking for to explain the cause.
The burden of proof is on the party making the claim, regardless of which crowd the claim comes from.