CAC Results and request to call JA - Final update!!!
davids5104
Posts: 805 ✭✭✭✭
14 for 19 on CAC. On one of the coins, an 1899-O he put 2 stickers on... one said call JA and the other pointing to the rim of the coin. Here is the true view link. https://www.pcgs.com/cert/37287134
We discussed this coin here previously at this link. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1022145/great-morgan-with-rim-hit#latest
A friend took this coin to Baltimore and asked around, those he asked universally called it PMD.
The coin received a green sticker
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
2
Comments
I find it hard to believe that would be PMD.
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
Well, have you called him yet?
Just got the coins today. I am off work Friday. I will call tomorrow or Friday
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
I was commenting that I did not think it was PMD, but after a very careful look on a bigger screen the beveled obverse rim does make it look like the coin took a hit when the letters were imprinted. Still very interesting and I'd love to look at it through a loupe.
I think there is an outside chance that the planchet was "damaged" by a struck coin before being struck, and only the design outside the dentils survived striking. In hand, is there any "squeeze" damage at all to the dentils where the incuse lettering is? Or any disturbance to the reeding in that area?
Ask him why the 82-S in 66+ didn't sticker.
The reeding is undamaged and the denticles are crisp.
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
Cool. Keep us posted on the phone call!
@davids5104 I think that goes a long way to pointing toward a damaged planchet before striking. I think it would be a very unusual circumstance for a blank planchet to come into contact with a struck coin before striking, but weird stuff apparently happened all the time at the mint.
I guess PMD would still be fair in this scenario, but it would be "Pre-mint damage"
Wow, that is a cool dollar! Clearly says "STATES OF". I am curious to hear what JA says about it.
"It's like God, Family, Country, except Sticker, Plastic, Coin."
You may want to ask for written documentation of your phone conversation.
Why is that important? it clearly says "ONE DOLLAR" too! Plus a few other clear words.
It sure is an interesting situation.
I missed the old thread and look forward to reading more about this.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Interesting coin.... We certainly are interested in what JA will say about the coin... Obviously does not think it is PMD... so likely pre strike planchet damage.... We await the word from on high...
Cheers, RickO
He's talking about the letters on the rim not in the fields
Is there anything anywhere else on the coin? Artifacts of the design, I mean
Cool coin. Now I’ll be be musing about how this happened while I’m working today.
Odd. My first reaction, and the easiest explanation is that it's a squeeze job. It could be a planchet that got pinched between a struck coin and something else somehow, but I'm not sure how. The answer is probably told by the reeds. They'll be distorted with a squeeze job, and not if it was struck this way.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution
This might have been in a mint bag sandwiched between other dollars and another sealed mint bag was tossed atop.
They had a lot of rat infestation issues all the mints then and the bags got moved around regularly.
It's what we call a sandwich error, but this one was accidental instead of deliberate.
Still as it's not something that occurred on a coin press it's PMD.
@Broadstruck , OP reports no damage to the dentils, no damage to the reeds. Given how clear the squeezed letters are, wouldn’t it be more likely to have happened pre strike?
It wasn't obvious to me that those are letters even on the larger image of the coin.
Spoke to JA.... he said he first wanted me to contact him to confirm I was aware of the nature of the coin.
He said he believes this is not PMD, but is a mint error. He said too much pressure would be required to create the perfect lettering. He said that there was cartwheel luster throughout and the depressions had mint luster in them.
This coin is also free of bag Mark's and there are no bag marks in the area of discussion.
JA thought I should send the to @BrettPCGS specifically to have this evaluated.
Lastly, i asked him a discussed, but unverified (at least to me) question about CAC. I asked him about coins that have previously been submitted but NOT beaned, do they keep track of those AND is this knowledge known when evaluating a repeat coin.
His answer is before they come to the evaluators, there is a yellow sticker applied for coins that have previously been submitted and not beaned. He said he has zero statistics, but guessed perhaps 10% of these "yellow stickered coins" will get beaned on resubmitting. He said submitters pay to have them evaluated, so every coin will be evaluated and not blindly left unbeaned.
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
It doesn't look like PMD. It doesn't appear to be a sandwich coin as the letters are raised but they are oddly reversed which suggests some kind of two-step process if it's an actual error.
It is very intriguing.
And, at the risk of bringing out the CAC haters, please note the personal attention that JA paid to this.
To be clear, are the mystery letters raised or incuse?
They look raised to me.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Letters are backwards from the die strike so it was from another coin and some heavy impact.
Don't care what JA thinks as Fred Weinberg is the final word on errors and who PCGS would send it too also.
The letters are INTO the rim. This characteristic is uncommon but not rare. I've never given it a thought about how it was caused. On Indian and Lincoln cents it is usually an overstrike from an encasement. That is not the case here. I've seen this on $20 gold coins of both types also. Usually it is the stars.
While it is neat and interesting, technically, it is damage IMO.
those letters are not raised. They are below the surface, below the level of the fields.
Just pulled out microscope... hard to see with loope
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
Boy, that picture is deceptive. It sure looks like the letters go up not down. If those letters are punched into the coin, why do we think it isn't damage?
Are you misunderstanding the question? You are telling us that the center region of the O in "OF" is above the line that creates the O? Then how is the line running into the denticle?
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
The letters would be raised if double struck...
But since they aren't this is simply PMD and not some mind bending mint error.
i am sorry i was incorrect about the lettering. they are above the fields. I edited the post and added some photos
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
If the letters are raised, it can't simply be PMD, but the inversion also means it's not simply double struck.
The only way I can see it happening is if you had some kind of weird off center double clash.
I wish it was a mint error of some sort as I'd be the first to say it's cool.
Still even damaged in gem condition it's got a better story than 12+ million other 1899-O Morgan dollars.
I am not trying to confuse anyone. I am uninformed about quite a few coin topics and even with a looped it is hard to see. I think the letters "OF" are above the fields and the letters "states are below the fields" The last "S" looks like the transition point between the high and low side of the stamp
This "S" is the only one that looks like it interacts with the denticles....
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
Forget the fields, that isn't issue. Are the letters incuse? In other words, are the letters on the rim raised like the regular letters or punched into the surface of the coin.
LOL. The new photo makes them look incuse.
They can NOT be different. Either they are all raised or they are all incuse.
If you put a pencil in the center of the O, does the metal go down from the pencil point into the coin or up from the pencil point toward you?
It looks like the struck denticals on a hardness level are higher that the reeded upset rims.
If you look on the reverse on how the rim collapsed from impact the denitcals are once again almost fully intact.
So when you just see a portion of a letter its because the denticals withstood what the raised rim couldn't.
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!
Based on light/shadows on the letters, it sure looks like the letters on the rim are incuse.
I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
I will say I based that on you last set of pictures! The earlier ones they do look obtuse
Dang! Looking again and again...just send it to me and I will let you know!
See worst case scenario a ophthalmologist should pay up for this and write it off as a new eye test for old coin farts
This is hilarious yet very common. Very often as I take a micrograph the image looks just the opposite of the actual coin. I need to look away and blink usually that fixes things. Sometimes just turning the coin in the light can make the image correct.
The added letters INTO the rim are different from the normal letters above the coin's field.
PMD, I thought this ja was supposed to be some sort of expert? lol
I agree. They look totally different in the second set.
@davids5104 You should be able to sort it out with directional lighting. The shadows will tell you.
This question to me, seems more than a question for customer service. How does pcgs address straight graded coins in their possession that are newly identified as PMD?
JA said to me he was not an error expert but did not think it was PMD. He said the letters had luster within them without moved metal
[Ebay Store - Come Visit]
Roosevelt Registry
transactions with cucamongacoin, FHC, mtinis, bigjpst, Rob41281, toyz4geo, erwindoc, add your name here!!!
Doesn’t look like PMD to me.
That's very funny. He's only looked at millions of coins, made millions of dollars and knows about 100x more than you. I get the irony of your joke. It's like calling a short person "stretch".
If those letters are incuse, it is probably damage. If the letters are in relief, it is far more confusing.
In either case, I don't think it can be PMD because the denticles are unaffected.