CAC Results and request to call JA - Final update!!!

davids5104

14 for 19 on CAC. On one of the coins, an 1899-O he put 2 stickers on... one said call JA and the other pointing to the rim of the coin. Here is the true view link. https://www.pcgs.com/cert/37287134

We discussed this coin here previously at this link. https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/1022145/great-morgan-with-rim-hit#latest

A friend took this coin to Baltimore and asked around, those he asked universally called it PMD.

The coin received a green sticker

ms70

I find it hard to believe that would be PMD.

erwindoc

Well, have you called him yet?

davids5104

@erwindoc said:
Well, have you called him yet?

Just got the coins today. I am off work Friday. I will call tomorrow or Friday

scubafuel

I was commenting that I did not think it was PMD, but after a very careful look on a bigger screen the beveled obverse rim does make it look like the coin took a hit when the letters were imprinted. Still very interesting and I'd love to look at it through a loupe.

I think there is an outside chance that the planchet was "damaged" by a struck coin before being struck, and only the design outside the dentils survived striking. In hand, is there any "squeeze" damage at all to the dentils where the incuse lettering is? Or any disturbance to the reeding in that area?

Coinstartled

Ask him why the 82-S in 66+ didn't sticker.

davids5104

@scubafuel said:
I was commenting that I did not think it was PMD, but after a very careful look on a bigger screen the beveled obverse rim does make it look like the coin took a hit when the letters were imprinted. Still very interesting and I'd love to look at it through a loupe.

I think there is an outside chance that the planchet was "damaged" by a struck coin before being struck, and only the design outside the dentils survived striking. In hand, is there any "squeeze" damage at all to the dentils where the incuse lettering is? Or any disturbance to the reeding in that area?

The reeding is undamaged and the denticles are crisp.

Peace_dollar88

Cool. Keep us posted on the phone call!

scubafuel

@davids5104 I think that goes a long way to pointing toward a damaged planchet before striking. I think it would be a very unusual circumstance for a blank planchet to come into contact with a struck coin before striking, but weird stuff apparently happened all the time at the mint.

I guess PMD would still be fair in this scenario, but it would be "Pre-mint damage"

DelawareDoons

Wow, that is a cool dollar! Clearly says "STATES OF". I am curious to hear what JA says about it.

Smudge

You may want to ask for written documentation of your phone conversation.

BAJJERFAN

@DelawareDoons said:
Clearly says "STATES OF".

Why is that important? it clearly says "ONE DOLLAR" too! Plus a few other clear words.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

sparky64

It sure is an interesting situation.
I missed the old thread and look forward to reading more about this.

ricko

Interesting coin.... We certainly are interested in what JA will say about the coin... Obviously does not think it is PMD... so likely pre strike planchet damage.... We await the word from on high... Cheers, RickO

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

BryceM

Cool coin. Now I’ll be be musing about how this happened while I’m working today.

messydesk

Odd. My first reaction, and the easiest explanation is that it's a squeeze job. It could be a planchet that got pinched between a struck coin and something else somehow, but I'm not sure how. The answer is probably told by the reeds. They'll be distorted with a squeeze job, and not if it was struck this way.

Broadstruck

This might have been in a mint bag sandwiched between other dollars and another sealed mint bag was tossed atop.

They had a lot of rat infestation issues all the mints then and the bags got moved around regularly.

It's what we call a sandwich error, but this one was accidental instead of deliberate.

Still as it's not something that occurred on a coin press it's PMD.

scubafuel

@Broadstruck , OP reports no damage to the dentils, no damage to the reeds. Given how clear the squeezed letters are, wouldn’t it be more likely to have happened pre strike?

BAJJERFAN

@Flackthat said:
@BAJJERFAN

It wasn't obvious to me that those are letters even on the larger image of the coin.

davids5104

Spoke to JA.... he said he first wanted me to contact him to confirm I was aware of the nature of the coin.
He said he believes this is not PMD, but is a mint error. He said too much pressure would be required to create the perfect lettering. He said that there was cartwheel luster throughout and the depressions had mint luster in them.
This coin is also free of bag Mark's and there are no bag marks in the area of discussion.

JA thought I should send the to @BrettPCGS specifically to have this evaluated.

Lastly, i asked him a discussed, but unverified (at least to me) question about CAC. I asked him about coins that have previously been submitted but NOT beaned, do they keep track of those AND is this knowledge known when evaluating a repeat coin.
His answer is before they come to the evaluators, there is a yellow sticker applied for coins that have previously been submitted and not beaned. He said he has zero statistics, but guessed perhaps 10% of these "yellow stickered coins" will get beaned on resubmitting. He said submitters pay to have them evaluated, so every coin will be evaluated and not blindly left unbeaned.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

sparky64

To be clear, are the mystery letters raised or incuse?
They look raised to me.

Broadstruck

@scubafuel said:
@Broadstruck , OP reports no damage to the dentils, no damage to the reeds. Given how clear the squeezed letters are, wouldn’t it be more likely to have happened pre strike?

Letters are backwards from the die strike so it was from another coin and some heavy impact.

Don't care what JA thinks as Fred Weinberg is the final word on errors and who PCGS would send it too also.

Insider2

The letters are INTO the rim. This characteristic is uncommon but not rare. I've never given it a thought about how it was caused. On Indian and Lincoln cents it is usually an overstrike from an encasement. That is not the case here. I've seen this on $20 gold coins of both types also. Usually it is the stars.

While it is neat and interesting, technically, it is damage IMO.

davids5104

@sparky64 said:
To be clear, are the mystery letters raised or incuse?
They look raised to me.

those letters are not raised. They are below the surface, below the level of the fields.

Just pulled out microscope... hard to see with loope

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Unknown

This content has been removed.

davids5104

@jmlanzaf said:

@davids5104 said:

@sparky64 said:
To be clear, are the mystery letters raised or incuse?
They look raised to me.

those letters are not raised. They are below the surface, below the level of the fields.

Boy, that picture is deceptive. It sure looks like the letters go up not down. If those letters are punched into the coin, why do we think it isn't damage?

Broadstruck

The letters would be raised if double struck...

But since they aren't this is simply PMD and not some mind bending mint error.

davids5104

@Broadstruck said:
The letters would be raised if double struck...

But since they aren't this is simply PMD and not some mind bending mint error.

i am sorry i was incorrect about the lettering. they are above the fields. I edited the post and added some photos

davids5104

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Broadstruck

@davids5104 said:

@Broadstruck said:
The letters would be raised if double struck...

But since they aren't this is simply PMD and not some mind bending mint error.

i am sorry i was incorrect about the lettering. they are above the fields. I edited the post and added some photos

I wish it was a mint error of some sort as I'd be the first to say it's cool.

Still even damaged in gem condition it's got a better story than 12+ million other 1899-O Morgan dollars.

davids5104

I am not trying to confuse anyone. I am uninformed about quite a few coin topics and even with a looped it is hard to see. I think the letters "OF" are above the fields and the letters "states are below the fields" The last "S" looks like the transition point between the high and low side of the stamp

This "S" is the only one that looks like it interacts with the denticles....

Unknown

This content has been removed.

Broadstruck

It looks like the struck denticals on a hardness level are higher that the reeded upset rims.

If you look on the reverse on how the rim collapsed from impact the denitcals are once again almost fully intact.

So when you just see a portion of a letter its because the denticals withstood what the raised rim couldn't.

amwldcoin

From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

MasonG

Based on light/shadows on the letters, it sure looks like the letters on the rim are incuse.

davids5104

@amwldcoin said:
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.

amwldcoin

I will say I based that on you last set of pictures! The earlier ones they do look obtuse

@davids5104 said:

@amwldcoin said:
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.

amwldcoin

Dang! Looking again and again...just send it to me and I will let you know!

@amwldcoin said:
I will say I based that on you last set of pictures! The earlier ones they do look obtuse

@davids5104 said:

@amwldcoin said:
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.

@amwldcoin said:
I will say I based that on you last set of pictures! The earlier ones they do look obtuse

@davids5104 said:

@amwldcoin said:
From what I can see...and don't see how a picture could deceive...those letters are incuse! What a puzzler!

I am glad someone just told us the answer. My eyes must be terrible. I am going back and forth still but I trust all of you over myself.

Broadstruck

See worst case scenario a ophthalmologist should pay up for this and write it off as a new eye test for old coin farts

Insider2

This is hilarious yet very common. Very often as I take a micrograph the image looks just the opposite of the actual coin. I need to look away and blink usually that fixes things. Sometimes just turning the coin in the light can make the image correct.

The added letters INTO the rim are different from the normal letters above the coin's field.

blitzdude

PMD, I thought this ja was supposed to be some sort of expert? lol

Unknown

This content has been removed.

davids5104

This question to me, seems more than a question for customer service. How does pcgs address straight graded coins in their possession that are newly identified as PMD?
JA said to me he was not an error expert but did not think it was PMD. He said the letters had luster within them without moved metal

tradedollarnut

Doesn’t look like PMD to me.

Unknown

This content has been removed.