PCGS slabs contemporary counterfeits! Thanks PCGS!
I was looking over this great looking error for a long time, admiring how interesting it looked before realizing it was a PCGS slabbed contemporary counterfeit!
There's been some talk asking PCGS to slab contemporary counterfeits in the past and this is the first one I've seen. Time to send them in for slabbing?
Thanks to @indeetlib for the large photos below.
Thanks to @PCGSPhoto for the CoinFacts TrueView images below!
I've generally been a big fan of PCGS expanding what they slab including:
Comments
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The above is from a different thread.
If you do write a book @RogerB, this looks like a great one to include!
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I'd be interested to know to what extent PCGS is slabbing contemporary counterfeits as well. Will it extend to world coins?
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Thanks @Zoins and you have very informative links, too.
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@ChopmarkedTrades said:
I'd be interested to know to what extent PCGS is slabbing contemporary counterfeits as well. Will it extend to world coins?They do slab CC 8 reales accidentally. I hope PCGS learns to detect these and properly attribute them.
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Interested to know if this means the contemporary counterfeit Morgans in the "Micro O Family" are back in play.
John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution9 -
Interesting how so many of the 1848 Small Dates are major errors.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.1 -
Interesting, pretty cool !!!
Timbuk31 -
That is an interesting area of coin collecting. Of course, collecting them would appear to encourage counterfeiting, there is no doubt that the practice dates to the introduction of coinage itself. Some, such as the Omega, the micro O, the Henning nickel, the racketeer nickel and a few others have gained a following. It seems as if authentic - if that term can be used to describe a counterfeit - and successful efforts command some respect. Cheers, RickO
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I am not opposed to holdering contemporary counterfeits. But it does set a precedent.
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Wouldn't that be a good way to get them off the regular market and identify them as counterfeit? ... until someone cracks it out anyway...
Collecting: Dansco 7070; Middle Date Large Cents (VF-AU); Box of 20;
Successful BST transactions with: SilverEagles92; Ahrensdad; Smitty; GregHansen; Lablade; Mercury10c; copperflopper; whatsup; KISHU1; scrapman1077, crispy, canadanz, smallchange, robkool, Mission16, ranshdow, ibzman350, Fallguy, Collectorcoins, SurfinxHI, jwitten, Walkerguy21D, dsessom.2 -
PCGS recognizes Red Book listings. Could that be why it made it into a holder?
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@ifthevamzarockin said:
PCGS recognizes Red Book listings. Could that be why it made it into a holder?Potentially, however, while they recognize references, they do make exceptions for what they won’t slab. For example, they recognize Krause listings but haven’t slabbed the Moonlight Mint 1964 Peace Dollar yet which is listed in the reference.
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With the impending publication of @stoneman 's book on contemporary counterfeits, I wonder if that will be the reference necessary for our hosts to take this up again.
John
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars • Variety Attribution3 -
that sure is fugly but I do like it. thanks pcgs for doing that
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Certainly hope they have done their homework. (See the thread on overweight 1879 cents for a detail or two.)
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According to that slab label that coin is a "Genuine" "Counterfeit".
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire4 -
Slabbing counterfeits is a very bad idea, in my opinion.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.2 -
@PerryHall said:
According to that slab label that coin is a "Genuine" "Counterfeit".I keep thinking about a "genuine" omega.
Some collect doilies, OGH, stickers or pedigree so....
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Wow...that is one messed up coin!
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What about Electros?
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@PerryHall said:
According to that slab label that coin is a "Genuine" "Counterfeit"."Questionable Authenticity" would be awesome.
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@kbbpll said:
@PerryHall said:
According to that slab label that coin is a "Genuine" "Counterfeit"."Questionable Authenticity" would be awesome.
Well, it’s not really questionable if it’s a known counterfeit
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@Zoins said:
@kbbpll said:
@PerryHall said:
According to that slab label that coin is a "Genuine" "Counterfeit"."Questionable Authenticity" would be awesome.
Well, it’s not really questionable if it’s a known counterfeit
My quirky sense of humor, I guess. I immediately imagined Chinese counterfeit contemporary counterfeits, and a grader unable to determine whether it's a real fake or a fake fake.
Maybe it sounds stupid, but some of these are worth more than their real counterparts. Has anybody seen a fake counterfeit yet?
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@DIMEMAN said:
Wow...that is one messed up coin!That's part of what I love about it. There's a lot going on and quite a bit of info on the insert!
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It is quite possibly the most interesting label ever. "Mint Error"!
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@kbbpll said:
It is quite possibly the most interesting label ever. "Mint Error"!Agree. I wonder if any other insert has as much going on!
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What's next? CACed Counterfeit "Omegas"?
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@MWallace said:
What's next? CACed Counterfeit "Omegas"?A CACed Genuine Omega might be plausible. A Counterfeit Omega, or a counterfeit of a counterfeit, would be jumping the shark
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...this thread is cool...all I can add is that it tastes way better with peanut M&Ms when you eat them using a three-staged attack...first you suck the candy coating off gently without cracking it...then when the candied layer is compromised you use your tongue to separate the milk chocolate from the peanut...stash the peanut somewhere in your cheek like a hamster while you patiently wait for all of the milk chocolate goodness to melt away...just after that happens then it’s time for the protein crunch...again with your tounge, find the peanut and crunch away...repeat...and when your a pro 3 at a time is the max to ensure you get your monies worth...it takes me 17 min to rip through a king sized...slow your roll and Enjoy Life fellas
4 -
@3keepSECRETif2rDEAD said:
...this thread is cool...all I can add is that it tastes way better with peanut M&Ms when you eat them using a three-staged attack...first you suck the candy coating off gently without cracking it...then when the candied layer is compromised you use your tongue to separate the milk chocolate from the peanut...stash the peanut somewhere in your cheek like a hamster while you patiently wait for all of the milk chocolate goodness to melt away...just after that happens then it’s time for the protein crunch...again with your tounge, find the peanut and crunch away...repeat...and when your a pro 3 at a time is the max to ensure you get your monies worth...it takes me 17 min to rip through a king sized...slow your roll and Enjoy Life fellasLOL!! This may be a bit TMI, but sounds like you have it down to a science.
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@MrEureka said:
Interesting how so many of the 1848 Small Dates are major errors.Here's another 1848 Small Date which is an off center broad strike on a clipped planchet. This is a CoinFacts TrueView photo.
This specimen is graded PCGS AU53BN and pedigreed to Dan Holmes.
Of note, PCGS calls this one a "Fantasy".
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/14300242
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According to that slab label that coin is a "Genuine" "Counterfeit"
that reminds me of an old Info-mercial I saw late one night where they advertised "Genuine Faux Pearls" among other things.
as for the OP coin, all I can say is "Slippery Slope" in regards to PCGS encapsulating them, and for the OP's desire to have PCGS start to encapsulate other things --- there is already a service(s) that does that, puts anything in a holder. I always felt the lack of that was part of what separated PCGS from the rest of the pack. maybe I was wrong.
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What was “melt” on Large Cents in 1848?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.0 -
The major grading services grade and slab the so-called New Haven restrike Fugio Cents which are not restrikes since they didn't use original dies and are counterfeits. In the future, perhaps PCGS should label them as genuine counterfeits to be consistent.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire0 -
@jerseycat101 said:
I am not opposed to holdering contemporary counterfeits. But it does set a precedent.Perhaps a precedent for PCGS, but ICG has been slabbing counterfeits and NGC has been slabbing ancient counterfeits for a while.
Image from eBay auction
Numismatist Ordinaire
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces5 -
"Oh what tangled webs we weave, when first we practice to deceive!"
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.4 -
Wow! 600-550 BC or over 2600 years ago. Is this the oldest slabbed contemporary counterfeit?
I guess counterfeiting may be as old as coins themselves!
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@messydesk said:
Interested to know if this means the contemporary counterfeit Morgans in the "Micro O Family" are back in play.You read my mind..
The more you VAM..0 -
@PerryHall said:
The major grading services grade and slab the so-called New Haven restrike Fugio Cents which are not restrikes since they didn't use original dies and are counterfeits. In the future, perhaps PCGS should label them as genuine counterfeits to be consistent.Don't forget that they also aren't related to New Haven which should be changed too.
The Red Book still calls these New Haven Restrikes. Any idea if the Red Book will change?
Were these passed as originals when issued?
https://www.whitman.com/redbook/488
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In the "old days" when a counterfeit was discovered that had fooled everyone (including expert professional dealers) for awhile, they were taken off the market. They were melted or put in C/F reference collections. Back then these fakes were treated just as the crude Chinese junk is today.
Now things are different. IMO this new craze, accepting fakes in the marketplace (Example: Assigning VAM numbers to fakes and selling them as desirable varieties) and pushing them out at high dollar values began with the "Micro O" dollars. These fakes had been passed as genuine, cataloged, published in the major reference, and slabbed as genuine by every major TPGS. So many individuals, companies, etc were "invested" in these coins that an exception was made. Some folks returned the coins back for refunds but many more kept them and their prices did not crash.
IMO, Machin Mills, old electros, evasion tokens, etc and even "Micro O's have a place in numismatic history and in counterfeit collections/teaching sets...BUT
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@Insider2 said:
In the "old days" when a counterfeit was discovered that had fooled everyone (including expert professional dealers) for awhile, they were taken off the market. They were melted or put in C/F reference collections. Back then these fakes were treated just as the crude Chinese junk is today.Now things are different. IMO this new craze, accepting fakes in the marketplace (Example: Assigning VAM numbers to fakes and selling them as desirable varieties) and pushing them out at high dollar values began with the "Micro O" dollars. These fakes had been passed as genuine, cataloged, published in the major reference, and slabbed as genuine by every major TPGS. So many individuals, companies, etc were "invested" in these coins that an exception was made. Some folks returned the coins back for refunds but many more kept them and their prices did not crash.
IMO, Machin Mills, old electros, evasion tokens, etc and even "Micro O's have a place in numismatic history and in counterfeit collections/teaching sets...BUT
I wonder if the crude Chinese junk of today will be collectible tomorrow. It seems there are collectors for so many known counterfeits now that one has to wonder. The assignment of VAM numbers to fakes is an interesting development.
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I would love to get my Omega TrueViewed and in PCGS plastic. Actually, there are already PCGS pics of it, I believe... they just are not released.
5 -
@Zoins said:
@Insider2 said:
In the "old days" when a counterfeit was discovered that had fooled everyone (including expert professional dealers) for awhile, they were taken off the market. They were melted or put in C/F reference collections. Back then these fakes were treated just as the crude Chinese junk is today.Now things are different. IMO this new craze, accepting fakes in the marketplace (Example: Assigning VAM numbers to fakes and selling them as desirable varieties) and pushing them out at high dollar values began with the "Micro O" dollars. These fakes had been passed as genuine, cataloged, published in the major reference, and slabbed as genuine by every major TPGS. So many individuals, companies, etc were "invested" in these coins that an exception was made. Some folks returned the coins back for refunds but many more kept them and their prices did not crash.
IMO, Machin Mills, old electros, evasion tokens, etc and even "Micro O's have a place in numismatic history and in counterfeit collections/teaching sets...BUT
I wonder if the crude Chinese junk of today will be collectible tomorrow. It seems so many counterfeits are collectible now that one has to wonder. The assignment of VAM numbers to fakes is an interesting development.
There are at least four levels of Chinese fakes.
- real crap
- crap
- decent fakes
- State-of-the-Art counterfeits that have been/are being slabbed by our best and brightest authenticators. These coins are avidly collected and they are EXPENSIVE because they easily pass as genuine and the folks who got stuck with them don't give them away cheaply!
Trade, Bust, and Flowing Hair dollars, colonials plus Half and Large cents are eagerly collected - and expensive.
1 -
@Insider2 said:
@Zoins said:
@Insider2 said:
In the "old days" when a counterfeit was discovered that had fooled everyone (including expert professional dealers) for awhile, they were taken off the market. They were melted or put in C/F reference collections. Back then these fakes were treated just as the crude Chinese junk is today.Now things are different. IMO this new craze, accepting fakes in the marketplace (Example: Assigning VAM numbers to fakes and selling them as desirable varieties) and pushing them out at high dollar values began with the "Micro O" dollars. These fakes had been passed as genuine, cataloged, published in the major reference, and slabbed as genuine by every major TPGS. So many individuals, companies, etc were "invested" in these coins that an exception was made. Some folks returned the coins back for refunds but many more kept them and their prices did not crash.
IMO, Machin Mills, old electros, evasion tokens, etc and even "Micro O's have a place in numismatic history and in counterfeit collections/teaching sets...BUT
I wonder if the crude Chinese junk of today will be collectible tomorrow. It seems so many counterfeits are collectible now that one has to wonder. The assignment of VAM numbers to fakes is an interesting development.
There are at least fore levels of Chinese fakes.
- real crap
- crap
- decent fakes
- State-of-the-Art counterfeits that have been/are being slabbed by our best and brightest authenticators. These coins are avidly collected and they are EXPENSIVE because they easily pass as genuine and the folks who got stuck with them don't give them away cheaply!
Trade, Bust, and Flowing Hair dollars, colonials plus Half and Large cents are eagerly collected - and expensive.
Are there any photos of the state-of-the-art ones? It's interesting that Chinese fakes are valued and collected at that level.
0 -
The state of the art, virtually undetectable counterfeits first appeared around 1981. At the time we speculated that they were coming from Switzerland or Germany, but we never established a source. The first good Chinese counterfeit I ever saw was at the end of 2007.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.1 -
The Micro o dollar counterfeits were given VAM numbers long before they were detected as counterfeits.
Professional Numismatist, Retired. 55 year member ANA. Former ANA Senior Authenticator. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and ANA Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner of the PNG's 2026 Robert Friedberg Award for "The Enigmatic Lincoln Cents of 1922," Available now from Whitman or Amazon.3 -
@CaptHenway said:
The state of the art, virtually undetectable counterfeits first appeared around 1981. At the time we speculated that they were coming from Switzerland or Germany, but we never established a source. The first good Chinese counterfeit I ever saw was at the end of 2007.Interesting, I didn't know about the Swiss / German theories. China certainly wasn't a major player in world commerce back in 1981.
0 -
@Zoins said:
@Insider2 said:
@Zoins said:
@Insider2 said:
In the "old days" when a counterfeit was discovered that had fooled everyone (including expert professional dealers) for awhile, they were taken off the market. They were melted or put in C/F reference collections. Back then these fakes were treated just as the crude Chinese junk is today.Now things are different. IMO this new craze, accepting fakes in the marketplace (Example: Assigning VAM numbers to fakes and selling them as desirable varieties) and pushing them out at high dollar values began with the "Micro O" dollars. These fakes had been passed as genuine, cataloged, published in the major reference, and slabbed as genuine by every major TPGS. So many individuals, companies, etc were "invested" in these coins that an exception was made. Some folks returned the coins back for refunds but many more kept them and their prices did not crash.
IMO, Machin Mills, old electros, evasion tokens, etc and even "Micro O's have a place in numismatic history and in counterfeit collections/teaching sets...BUT
I wonder if the crude Chinese junk of today will be collectible tomorrow. It seems so many counterfeits are collectible now that one has to wonder. The assignment of VAM numbers to fakes is an interesting development.
There are at least fore levels of Chinese fakes.
- real crap
- crap
- decent fakes
- State-of-the-Art counterfeits that have been/are being slabbed by our best and brightest authenticators. These coins are avidly collected and they are EXPENSIVE because they easily pass as genuine and the folks who got stuck with them don't give them away cheaply!
Trade, Bust, and Flowing Hair dollars, colonials plus Half and Large cents are eagerly collected - and expensive.
Are there any photos of the state-of-the-art ones? It's interesting that Chinese fakes are valued and collected at that level.
They have been posted here and on other forms by Jack Young.
1 -
@Insider2 said:
@Zoins said:
@Insider2 said:
@Zoins said:
@Insider2 said:
In the "old days" when a counterfeit was discovered that had fooled everyone (including expert professional dealers) for awhile, they were taken off the market. They were melted or put in C/F reference collections. Back then these fakes were treated just as the crude Chinese junk is today.Now things are different. IMO this new craze, accepting fakes in the marketplace (Example: Assigning VAM numbers to fakes and selling them as desirable varieties) and pushing them out at high dollar values began with the "Micro O" dollars. These fakes had been passed as genuine, cataloged, published in the major reference, and slabbed as genuine by every major TPGS. So many individuals, companies, etc were "invested" in these coins that an exception was made. Some folks returned the coins back for refunds but many more kept them and their prices did not crash.
IMO, Machin Mills, old electros, evasion tokens, etc and even "Micro O's have a place in numismatic history and in counterfeit collections/teaching sets...BUT
I wonder if the crude Chinese junk of today will be collectible tomorrow. It seems so many counterfeits are collectible now that one has to wonder. The assignment of VAM numbers to fakes is an interesting development.
There are at least fore levels of Chinese fakes.
- real crap
- crap
- decent fakes
- State-of-the-Art counterfeits that have been/are being slabbed by our best and brightest authenticators. These coins are avidly collected and they are EXPENSIVE because they easily pass as genuine and the folks who got stuck with them don't give them away cheaply!
Trade, Bust, and Flowing Hair dollars, colonials plus Half and Large cents are eagerly collected - and expensive.
Are there any photos of the state-of-the-art ones? It's interesting that Chinese fakes are valued and collected at that level.
They have been posted here and on other forms by Jack Young.
Are they the ones made from real coins?
0
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