Thanks to PCGS for slabbing HK Unlisted So-Called Dollars!

ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited September 26, 2018 1:59AM in U.S. Coin Forum

One of the issues with collecting so-called dollars is that getting pieces slabbed can be challenging if cataloging is required because the HK catalog isn't "living" in the sense of growing the listings with the wide variety of SCDs that are unlisted.

This issue was discussed back in 2012 and more recently last December. While ATS has been slabbing unlisted so-called dollars for some time as "SC$", I'm happy to report that I've run across my first PCGS "HK-Unlisted" so-called dollar.

Thanks to PCGS for recognizing this and slabbing unlisted pieces for collectors. I have to say this is a very cool piece as well!


Comments

  • abcde12345abcde12345 Posts: 1,800 ✭✭✭✭✭

    "Mean Bear" variety. Nice!

    "If you piss me off and I stab you to death with a snowman's nose, it doesn't mean that carrots are inherently dangerous." Aristotle - 343 BC

  • GoldenEggGoldenEgg Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭✭

    Interesting. This brings up a couple questions. Does this mean that ANY exonumia is being slabbed? Or does it have to fit so-called dollar criteria? Or is this a one-off?

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 40,604 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Progress is good.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    The cert number is also so very close to being a palindrome!

  • rickoricko Posts: 67,868 ✭✭✭✭✭

    That is an attractive SCD.... Reminiscent of gold rush days in the wild country.... Cheers, RickO

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2017 11:30AM

    It's also interesting that this is straight-graded, possibly due to its rarity. I'm wondering if PCGS would straight grade this R8 Santa Monica Breakwater. I passed on that one at the time but hope the owner tries to get it graded!

  • When are the "So-Called Dollar gods" going to reconvene and recognize Unlisted Dollars with their own designation or HK-(number) and bring it to print.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017 8:54PM

    @1patwick said:
    When are the "So-Called Dollar gods" going to reconvene and recognize Unlisted Dollars with their own designation or HK-(number) and bring it to print.

    New HK numbers are being assigned. HK-902A was recently discussed here and should be in the 3rd Edition but I don't know when it will be out. The link and photos are below.

    HK-902A discussion

    Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hyder are also coming up with their own SH numbering system. Here are some links:

    1894 California Midwinter Exposition SCDs
    1905 Lewis & Clark Exposition SCDs

  • jmlanzafjmlanzaf Posts: 8,137 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    One of the issues with collecting so-called dollars is that getting pieces slabbed can be challenging if cataloging is required because the HK catalog isn't "living" in the sense of growing the listings with the wide variety of SCDs that are unlisted.

    This issue was discussed back in 2012 and more recently last December. While ATS has been slabbing unlisted so-called dollars for some time as "SC$", I'm happy to report that I've run across my first PCGS "HK-Unlisted" so-called dollar.

    Thanks to PCGS for recognizing this and slabbing unlisted pieces for collectors. I have to say this is a very cool piece as well!


    Nice. I've got a bunch I'm going to send in, but I've been trying to figure out what tier. They are mostly under $300 unless they "get the grade" in which case they are $500+. What tier did you submit under?

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 12, 2017 11:28PM

    @jmlanzaf said:

    @Zoins said:
    One of the issues with collecting so-called dollars is that getting pieces slabbed can be challenging if cataloging is required because the HK catalog isn't "living" in the sense of growing the listings with the wide variety of SCDs that are unlisted.

    This issue was discussed back in 2012 and more recently last December. While ATS has been slabbing unlisted so-called dollars for some time as "SC$", I'm happy to report that I've run across my first PCGS "HK-Unlisted" so-called dollar.

    Thanks to PCGS for recognizing this and slabbing unlisted pieces for collectors. I have to say this is a very cool piece as well!


    Nice. I've got a bunch I'm going to send in, but I've been trying to figure out what tier. They are mostly under $300 unless they "get the grade" in which case they are $500+. What tier did you submit under?

    I wish I could help here but I didn't submit this. I said I ran across it so it was already slabbed when I found it.

    As for what tier to submit, perhaps try calling PCGS support?

  • keetskeets Posts: 21,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 17, 2019 8:19AM

    I would want to know what number this would be assigned?? what is the event that it's associated with??

    here's the "twist" in PCGS encapsulating this item --- they have now stepped onto the slippery slope of encapsulating things they say they won't while NOT encapsulating things they say they will. that is not a good precedent to be setting.

    you might recall that about 15 months ago member cardinal submitted a Dan Carr issue which PCGS very clearly states that they will encapsulate, but they hedged without a plausible explanation. now they have encapsulated a medal which isn't listed anywhere while clearly stating that such a medal would need to be listed in the 2nd edition of So Called Dollars, which it isn't.

    this shouldn't really be a discussion about whether or not the OP's medal is a SC$. if it is to be a discussion about a new variety, such as the HK-902a, then logically there should be a listing in the 2nd edition for HK-902, which there is. the new medal isn't an unlisted design it is only an unlisted planchet alloy which is entirely reasonable. all the same, by strict standards I wouldn't expect PCGS to encapsulate it although I believe they would.

    we have had this discussion before and my position remains the same.


    --- George Carlin RIP, he'd have a lot of fresh material if he was alive today!!
  • KkathylKkathyl Posts: 3,087 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Congrats.

  • 1patwick1patwick Posts: 106 ✭✭

    @keets,
    Please don't tread on the So-called Dollar collectors and our unlisted treasures! I have two unlisted medals going to PCGS for grading.

    DON'T RUIN MY ECCENTRIC, ESOTERIC COLLECTION!
    (my wife has other words for my "obsession")

  • GluggoGluggo Posts: 2,659 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @1patwick said:
    @keets,
    Please don't tread on the So-called Dollar collectors and our unlisted treasures! I have two unlisted medals going to PCGS for grading.

    DON'T RUIN MY ECCENTRIC, ESOTERIC COLLECTION!
    (my wife has other words for my "obsession")

    I am bringing to you POSITIVE THOUGHTS for both PCGS and Your Submission request! May PCGS end up doing a wonderful job and everybody is satisfied with the final outcome!

  • Cool!

  • keetskeets Posts: 21,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2018 4:38AM

    guys, I'm not trying to rain on anybody's parade, but there should be a clear line which PCGS shouldn't cross. JMHO, but if you have tokens that aren't listed anywhere, NGC has always shown a willingness to encapsulate them, or maybe even ICG.

    to the point of ANY TPG encapsulating medals and attaching the term "unlisted HK" I have always been against such a thing. the proper thing might be to lobby whoever holds the publishing rights to the catalogue for some type of addendum or later edition for inclusion, but a major TPG doing that seems improper.

    to my way of thinking it might be a good idea to "de-list" SC$'s which don't belong, starting with HK-8, a beautiful medal but not issued for the event it is associated with.

    C.C. Julian, a con artist active during the 1920s, issued this medal to commemorate the opening of the New Monte Cristo Mine near Wickenburg, Arizona. Julian was majority shareholder of the Julian Petroleum Company, shares of which were extensively promoted in print media by Julian. To fend off California regulators, Julian purchased existing mines, including the New Monte Cristo, but its operations were soon shut down by the California State Corporation Commission.
    --- I would ask again, what "Event" does this commemorate and where would it go in the catalogue??


    --- George Carlin RIP, he'd have a lot of fresh material if he was alive today!!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2018 9:16AM

    I think updating HK is the ideal approach but the issue seems to be that HK isn't being actively updated like other references such as the Red Book and Krause. While the Red Book and Krause are updated every year, it was 45 years between the 1st and 2nd HK edition and 10 years since the 2nd edition was published. As we've seen above, some new numbers are being assigned for the 3rd edition, e.g. HK-902A, but they seem to be the exception rather than the rule. I think petitioning the publisher for new numbers like HK-902A is okay, but given the low activity, I think going through the HK publisher for every piece may be counter productive, at least until the publisher begins regular updates. In the current scenario, the seems following would be useful:

    • Have HK be regularly updated like the Red Book or Krause
    • Come up with another reference. Jeff Shevlin and Bill Hayden have started their SH numbering system
    • Use "HK-Unlisted" or "SC$" or "SCD" until either of the above happens. PCGS uses "HK-Unlisted" while ATS uses "SC$". I think either are okay because the medals are unlisted in HK and they are So-Called Dollars. The "So-Called Dollar" term was created by Thomas Elder decades before the HK reference so is not specific to HK.

    Is there any info on when a 3rd edition might become available?

    As to this particular medal, the event is "the opening of the New Monte Cristo Mine near Wickenburg, Arizona." as quoted. This seems to be more of an event than the KKK and some other medals that are currently listed which aren't associated with an event of any type.

    I'd love to see HK be updated and include modern events such as the Nome Gold Rush Centennial which lasted over a year, had a calendar of many events and an official logo. However, until it's cataloged, I'd also love to have PCGS encapsulate it.

  • keetskeets Posts: 21,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2018 5:58PM

    Zoins, I suggest that since you are so adamant about all these new medals being added that you do all the work that is needed. you could try to get the publishing rights and then you can do whatever you want to do with adding anything. you can be responsible for all the research and all the qualifying criteria, estimates of rarity, pictures and petitioning the various TPG's to include them and what they are to be called.

    I will continue to collect SC$'s by number as they are catalogued and other interesting medals, like many you post, without worrying about what they are or aren't, what a grading service wants to call them or what others think.


    --- George Carlin RIP, he'd have a lot of fresh material if he was alive today!!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 21, 2018 9:14PM

    @keets I'm not really saying anything different than what the TPGs are already doing. PCGS is slabbing these medals as "HK-Unlisted" and ATS is slabbing these as "SC$" without needing to wait for an updated HK Guide. No need for me to do anything different since I'm okay with both of these TPG approaches. In fact, this thread was created to thank PCGS for slabbing these.

    Of course, if HK was being updated regularly, things would be easier since this wouldn't be a topic of discussion / contention.

    I am separately thinking about a cataloging effort but it's just thinking right now.

  • keetskeets Posts: 21,471 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2018 6:18AM

    well, I am saying something different than what PCGS/NGC are saying, which in essence gives something legitimacy before it is even recognized by the collecting community. that is OK with me if it is important to others, but it sets a trend which I don't think is good. perhaps both PCGS/NGC are in contact with someone who is working to do some updates as you suggest. I tend to think they are "pressured" by dealers/collectors with "sway" and the pieces are encapsulated.

    this, to me, is more troubling with PCGS than NGC. they have been slabbing everything under the sun ATS. with PCGS it makes no sense because they have shown a trend of not encapsulating things they clearly state they will and now have undertaken the course of encapsulating things they clearly say they won't. it frustrates me personally because they won't encapsulate medals I submit which they should.

    it doesn't really affect me other than when I get wound up discussing it with you!! :o :) B)


    --- George Carlin RIP, he'd have a lot of fresh material if he was alive today!!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 19,413 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keets said:
    it doesn't really affect me other than when I get wound up discussing it with you!! :o :) B)

    Sorry to hear that! This is a hobby and should be fun so I hope it remains so for you :)

  • HydrantHydrant Posts: 1,652 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's a good thing.

  • THOMAS655THOMAS655 Posts: 60 ✭✭✭

    John Raymond has a great listing of unlisted so-called dollars by grouping types on his website WWW.SOCALLEDDOLLAR.COM. He has them numbered 1-406. I would like to see the non-HK listed so called dollars graded by PCGS and NGC using Mr. Raymond's numbering system. Of course his site does not list every single unlisted medal that might be considered a so-called dollar, but it is a great start to something. Mr. Raymond is extremely knowledgeable in this field.

  • AzurescensAzurescens Posts: 1,837 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    The cert number is also so very close to being a palindrome!

    The "winning" coin of the Palindrome is a lot less impressive.

    Never stop someone from singing, for there is joy in their heart.

  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 8,843 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @abcde12345 said:
    "Mean Bear" variety. Nice!

    +1
    Also known as the ‘Get Off My Lawn Bear’

  • THOMAS655THOMAS655 Posts: 60 ✭✭✭


    I tried to convince NGC to list this medal as Raymond-159 when I sent it to them for grading, but they apparently refused to do so. I still believe that the John Raymond unlisted SCD listings should be a category of medals with PCGS and NGC, since there is no other list this comprehensive for medals that would otherwise meet the limitation standards set forth by Mr. Hibler and Mr. Kappen below:

    United States only.
    Minimum diameter - Size 21 (1-5/16 inch or 33mm).
    Maximum diameter - Size 28 (1-3/4 inch or 45mm); but silver Bryan Dollars are listed.
    No holed or looped material unless struck plain also. Our Nos. 1 to HK-3 are the sole exceptions.
    No plastic, fiber or similar material unless issued also in one or more metals.
    No purely presidential or political medals.
    No school, college or athletic medals; no coin club or U.S. Armed Forces medals.
    No calendar or store cards; no trade tokens or emergency money.

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