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PCGS now slabs Heraldic Art So-Called Half Dollars!

ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited February 25, 2020 8:38PM in U.S. Coin Forum

I just ran across this PCGS slabbed Heraldic Art medal by Robert McNamara in a Gen 6.0 holder. He started the Heraldic Art series of medals after the Classic Commem Half Dollar series was cancelled by the US Government. The primary strikes were done in silver as with the half dollars and a few were struck in gold (48 gold for this Pony Express piece). NGC started slabbing these a while ago and this is the first I've seen slabbed by PCGS. PCGS and NGC label these as "SC50C" for So-Called Half Dollar.

Thanks to PCGS for slabbing these as well! I just wish this one had a TrueView.

There are 5 coin numbers in the PCGS Pop Report including gold, silver and bronze with a total of 9 slabbed:

https://www.pcgs.com/Pop/detail.aspx?pno=5&c=794&p=MS&t=1

Here's the auction and image. This is being offered at $10,000.00 OBO. I remember when these were selling for less than $1,000.00. Let's see what price this sells at.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/1960-Pony-Express-22K-Gold-Medal-Heraldic-Art-PCGS-MS68-Serial-22-Mintage/172865793791

Comments

  • ECHOESECHOES Posts: 2,974 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cool :#

    ~HABE FIDUCIAM IN DOMINO III V VI / III XVI~
    POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
    Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017 6:27AM
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Beautiful medal and a great theme..... Cheers, RickO

  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't recall ever seeing a gold Heraldic Art medal. One learns new things on this forum every day!

    All glory is fleeting.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017 1:12PM

    Given there are only 8 medals struck in gold, it's a pretty small set so I can see a few people wanting complete collections. Here's the list. There's good info on heraldicartmedallions.com but unfortunately that site seems offline now. I'm guessing the Olde Northfield Historical Society (http://www.hson.info/) piece may be the hardest to come by. It makes sense that the Alaksa piece has sold for more than the others given the lower mintage.

    • 1959 Alaska Statehood - 24 in 18k
    • 1959 Hawaii Statehood - 36 in 18k
    • 1959 St. Lawrence Seaway - 48
    • 1960 Boy Scouts 50th Anniversary
    • 1960 Pioneer Inventions
    • 1960 Pony Express Centennial - 42 in 22k
    • 1961 Kansas Statehood Centennial
    • American Bicentennial Olde Northfield Historical Society
  • 291fifth291fifth Posts: 24,344 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I wonder how many of those medals have found their way to the melting pot over the years?

    All glory is fleeting.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 19, 2017 1:42PM

    Given these are nearly 60 years old now, I bet a fair number of them have been melted which makes the collecting more interesting.

    I have yet to come across a American Bicentennial but those may be held by HSON members.

  • kiyotekiyote Posts: 5,573 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I would think a fair amount as well, especially in the late 70s.

    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭

    I own all the original (cancelled) dies for this series. :)

  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,490 ✭✭✭✭

    Call me when they decide to Slab Dan Carr's Medals and Over Strikes.

    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • CascadeChrisCascadeChris Posts: 2,524 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It's gotta be only a matter of time before they start slabbing @dcarr items. Hopefully sooner rather than later!

    The more you VAM..
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017 8:51PM

    @coinkid855 said:
    I own all the original (cancelled) dies for this series. :)

    Very cool! It's amazing you have an entire set. How did you get them?

    Do you know how many sets there are? I know there are others because I have a pair :)

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 23, 2017 9:11PM

    @CascadeChris said:
    It's gotta be only a matter of time before they start slabbing @dcarr items. Hopefully sooner rather than later!

    It might help if ATS slabs them first. I noticed that PCGS comes after ATS becomes popular.

  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017 5:57AM

    @Zoins said:

    @coinkid855 said:
    I own all the original (cancelled) dies for this series. :)

    Very cool! It's amazing you have an entire set. How did you get them?

    Do you know how many sets there are? I know there are others because I have a pair :)

    From what I understand, there were extra pairs for only a few issues. I wanted the whole set to make copper restrikes of the series (which I did.)

    Paul

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2020 4:49PM

    Congrats on doing the restrikes. They look great Paul!

    I just ran across the info on contest recently. I'm sorry I missed it!

    CoinWeek: Heraldic Art Bronze Medal Restrikes – CoinWeek Giveaway #179

    If you haven’t entered for your chance to win our Giveaway this week, you have lost your mind! Our 179th Giveaway features one of the most expensive and limited items we have ever offered. Collector Paul Sandler has provided us one of 30 restrike Complete sets of Heraldic Art Medallions. These So-Called Half Dollars were produced from 1959-1978 and span two centuries of American history. Each piece is being offered individually on eBay for $19-$99 each. The winner gets them all.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 2, 2022 3:23AM

    Here is a great thread on Heraldic Art medals with photos of many silver specimens.

    https://www.cointalk.com/threads/heraldic-art-medals.205210/

    On Dec 18, 2012, LostDutchman mentioned a number of the dies were owned by Don "D.A." Smith who purchased them from the Ron McNamara estate. I wonder how many dies Don owns (or owned)?

    I am good friends with Don Smith who runs http://www.heraldicartmedallions.com/about.html

    I recently bought 50 pieces from Mr. Smith out of his extras. I also had the pleasure of photographing his dies and die trials he acquired from the McNamara estate. Here are a few I photographed today.

  • MeltdownMeltdown Posts: 8,790 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Interesting. I have a few of the silver Heraldic art pieces. They are all really well done!
    photo IMG_5842.jpg
    photo IMG_5880.jpg

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 24, 2017 1:24PM

    Regarding the extra die pairs, it would be interesting to know how many there were and to compare them. There are two cases for additional die pairs I can think of:

    Striking many issues. Some of the silver strikes had mintages to 6,000 so it may have been necessary to have multiple dies. This is similar to Dan's multiple dies or the ones issued for the 1996 Olympics.

    Separate dies for gold issues. One of the Hawaii die pairs was identified as specifically used for only striking gold specimens.

    Here are photos of my one pair. I picked this one because I am an Eagle Scout and it brings back many memories of scouting. It would be great to get more :)

  • CameonutCameonut Posts: 7,293 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Dang.
    I had several dozen of these "SCDs" and ended up selling them instead over the last 5 years.
    Now I wish I had them back. Some were pretty cool designs.

    “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson

    My digital cameo album 1950-64 Cameos - take a look!

  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    Regarding the extra die pairs, it would be interesting to know how many there were and to compare them. There are two cases for additional die pairs I can think of:

    Striking many issues. Some of the silver strikes had mintages to 6,000 so it may have been necessary to have multiple dies. This is similar to Dan's multiple dies or the ones issued for the 1996 Olympics.

    Separate dies for gold issues. One of the Hawaii die pairs was identified as specifically used for only striking gold specimens.

    Here are photos of my one pair. I picked this one because I am an Eagle Scout and it brings back many memories of scouting. It would be great to get more :)

    Very nice set of dies! I am not sure how many extras there are, but I am under the impression that it is not that many.

    There is a copper Pony Express in the PCGS Pops...does anyone know if that's a restrike of mine or an original? (All of mine have 2017 Restrike on the edge.)

    -Paul

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 26, 2017 5:30PM

    @coinkid855 said:
    There is a copper Pony Express in the PCGS Pops...does anyone know if that's a restrike of mine or an original? (All of mine have 2017 Restrike on the edge.)

    That's very interesting. It would be great to find out. It would be nice if there was a TrueView or CoinFacts image to tell. Have you thought of sending any of yours to PCGS?

  • Vonkraut74Vonkraut74 Posts: 25 ✭✭
    edited November 27, 2017 9:15AM

    If anyone knows anything about the Pony Express Copper (if original. PCGS says Bronze as well)), please let me know (and yours too Paul). I'm trying to make a display of the different alloys to go along with mine.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    PCGS and NGC will "slab" medals, but not counterfeits.

  • divecchiadivecchia Posts: 6,633 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I've never seen these before, but they are definitely cool looking.

    Thanks for showing them.

    Donato

    Hobbyist & Collector (not an investor).
    Donato's Complete US Type Set ---- Donato's Dansco 7070 Modified Type Set ---- Donato's Basic U.S. Coin Design Set

    Successful transactions: Shrub68 (Jim), MWallace (Mike)
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited November 27, 2017 11:20AM

    I have a small part set I think they are cool.







    Hoard the keys.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Type2 said:
    I have a small part set I think they are cool.

    Wonderful medals and display! Thanks for posting them!

  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭

    They really are gorgeous medals.

    Here's a few more of my favorite designs. These are my restrikes with the "2017 Restrike" edge lettering.

    -Paul

  • FYI, I wrote a featured article on these medals this spring in TAMS including a history of Mr. McNamara based on interviews of his wife and son. The article also provides information on rarity and pricing.

  • @sepetty said:
    FYI, I wrote a featured article on these medals this spring in TAMS including a history of Mr. McNamara based on interviews of his wife and son. The article also provides information on rarity and pricing.

    Link?

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Unless these are in the HK catalog, they are simply small medals. Many are very attractive.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2018 9:01AM

    @RogerB said:
    Unless these are in the HK catalog, they are simply small medals. Many are very attractive.

    The So-Called Dollar (SCD) term was created about 50 years before HK by a different person so to use that as the definition for SCDs seems a bit silly. Also, HK also doesn’t cover So-Called Half Dollars so it really can't be used here.

    PCGS calls these So-Called Half Dollars and that’s good enough for me.

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2018 8:54AM

    Using those criteria, every small medal is a "so-called half dollar" which makes no sense at all. Using a meaningless, undefined term only confuses people and promotes misunderstanding (and facilitates sales hyping).

    Where do all of the Franklin Mint medals fit? How about the Society of Medallists, Presidential Art Medals, Esso Gas, Chuck-E-Cheese?

    Adding a term associated only with a specific cataloged group of dollar-size medals, to a nebulous assemblage is absurd - and the instigator is doing a disservice to all. :)

  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @coinkid855 said:

    WOW!
    YOURS?

    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2018 9:22AM

    @RogerB said:
    Using those criteria, every small medal is a "so-called half dollar" which makes no sense at all. Using a meaningless, undefined term only confuses people and promotes misunderstanding (and facilitates sales hyping).

    Going from these to “every small medal” is a pretty big stretch. Do you see PCGS (or NGC or anyone) doing this?

    Where do all of the Franklin Mint medals fit? How about the Society of Medallists, Presidential Art Medals, Esso Gas, Chuck-E-Cheese?

    I’m not the one classifying these but you can ask in the PCGS Q&A forum. I will say that these were intended to replace the Classic Commem Half Dollar series so there is that difference from the ones you list.

    Adding a term associated only with a specific cataloged group of dollar-size medals, to a nebulous assemblage is absurd - and the instigator is doing a disservice to all. :)

    Who are you implying is the instigator here? PCGS?

  • RogerBRogerB Posts: 8,852 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A meaningless designation without definition creates confusion and misunderstanding. It does not matter who or what originated it. Hopefully, this kind of misdirection will vanish very soon.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2018 9:51AM

    @RogerB said:
    A meaningless designation without definition creates confusion and misunderstanding. It does not matter who or what originated it. Hopefully, this kind of misdirection will vanish very soon.

    As mentioned, these were intended as a replacement for the Classic Commem Half Dollars after that series was stopped. You may consider this meaningless but others may have a different opinion.

    Both PCGS and NGC call these So-Called Half Dollars but perhaps they could be convinced otherwise. Give it a shot if you like.

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Roger, I have had this debate with Zoins for what seems like a few years now, it is an exercise in futility. the downside is as you stated, confusion for collectors who aren't able to sort things out.

    Going from these to “every small medal” is a pretty big stretch. Do you see PCGS (or NGC or anyone) doing this?
    this is precisely what NGC will do and has done for well over 10-15 years. you can pretty much send anything to them with a vague description and they will encapsulate it. do we need PCGS to participate in that type of thing???

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2018 1:46PM

    @keets said:
    Roger, I have had this debate with Zoins for what seems like a few years now, it is an exercise in futility. the downside is as you stated, confusion for collectors who aren't able to sort things out.

    If your expectation is for the TPGs to change their classification, then a discussion here may be futile since I don't think they generally create their policies based on forum discussions. It may help more if you both discuss with the TPGs directly.

    As for me, you're right in that I really don't see an issue right now, for SCDs or SCHDs. More below on this.

    Going from these to “every small medal” is a pretty big stretch. Do you see PCGS (or NGC or anyone) doing this?
    this is precisely what NGC will do and has done for well over 10-15 years. you can pretty much send anything to them with a vague description and they will encapsulate it. do we need PCGS to participate in that type of thing???

    When I search for NGC So-Called Half Dollar on the bay, I only see 33 items for "ngc so-called half dollar" and 30 items for "ngc sc50c". That's a very limited number and, to me, doesn't rise to the "every small medal" issue mentioned by @RogerB. You mentioned something similar about every medal being called a So-Called Dollar, but I mentioned that I also don't really see this happening. I do, however, see the SCD term being applied to event medals and tokens which I think is okay.

    As for general encapsulation, that's different then calling something a "SC50C" or "SC$", but I'm also ok with encapsulating items without the "SC50C" and "SC$" classification.

  • keetskeets Posts: 25,351 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 18, 2018 1:54PM

    no one is trying to get the TPG's to do anything, that is what you wrongly inferred. perhaps the same reasoning should be applied to submitters who want these medals called SC$'s and other published terms.

    speaking only for myself, I figure that the major TPG's wholesale slabbing of items with a nametag isn't good for collectors. it is probably good for the TPG's as a revenue source, good for flippers for the same reasons and good for collectors who need like to have their items encapsulated for various reasons. I don't think it is good for the majority of the Hobby for reasons which have been stated by me before.

    you like to be able to place a random nametag on medals based on vague criteria at best and a specious definition at worst. NGC apparently agrees with you and PCGS has now decided they do, too. congratulations on your persistence.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 19, 2018 8:40AM

    @keets said:
    no one is trying to get the TPG's to do anything, that is what you wrongly inferred.

    I actually didn't infer that for you. I was asking for clarification which is the reason for the "if". Thanks for the clarification.

    That being said, Roger did write "Hopefully, this [...] will vanish very soon" which I took to mean that he was interested in having the TPGs change their behavior.

    NGC apparently agrees with you and PCGS has now decided they do, too. congratulations on your persistence.

    I'm just happy they are slabbing more pieces.

  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭

    @Treashunt said:

    @coinkid855 said:

    WOW!
    YOURS?

    Yes, for the time being. Most will be sold eventually.

  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,729 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited April 18, 2019 7:39PM

    warning.....old thread bump
    Well, I guess I’m late to the party but I’ve been seeing more of these and was
    surprised that NGC was slabbing them, then I saw PCGS does also.
    Interesting........ Thanks @Zoins for posting this. And that collection of all the cancelled dies
    that coinkid has is very neat.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2020 8:40PM

    Thanks for bumping this Stef.

    I wasn't able to find a TrueView before but there is one now. This one is MS65 pop 0/1/3.

    https://www.pcgs.com/cert/83774413

  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭

    I have some of the dies back in hand now, here are a few photos.



  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 34,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020 11:46AM

    These are almost never toned so it was nice to add this one.

    I wonder why so many are white after all these years? Non-sulfur envelopes and clean living?

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,846 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Nice!

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