@CaptHenway said:
The Micro o dollar counterfeits were given VAM numbers long before they were detected as counterfeits.
NOT the new ones. The point I'm making is in the old days when you were at ANACS, these fakes would have been DELISTED COMPLETLY in any new additions of the V & M dollar book perhaps with a chapter added about them and their history.
You don't see the "Omega's" glorified although they are collected. AFAIK, most were considered "scrap." One of mine was saved from the refiner! I happened to be at the right place and time to get it.
@CaptHenway said:
The Micro o dollar counterfeits were given VAM numbers long before they were detected as counterfeits.
NOT the new ones. The point I'm making is in the old days when you were at ANACS, these fakes would have been DELISTED COMPLETLY in any new additions of the V & M dollar book perhaps with a chapter added about them and their history.
You don't see the "Omega's" glorified although they are collected. AFAIK, most were considered "scrap." One of mine was saved from the refiner! I happened to be at the right place and time to get it.
Why is this changing? Are there a lot of collectors for these?
I bought this last year and posted it. Although came from Israel seller on eBay
I’ve always thought this was a Chinese counterfeit. And, a pretty good one.
.
.
The all brown one in the gif, is what I purchased. The red/brown is from coinfacts.
.
.
@coinsarefun said:
I bought this last year and posted it. Although came from Israel seller on eBay
I’ve always thought this was a Chinese counterfeit. And, a pretty good one.
.
.
The all brown one in the gif, is what I purchased. The red/brown is from coinfacts.
.
.
Are there a lot of these coming out of Israel?
I've followed Chinese error coins and I've noticed that a lot of them come raw from a single eBay seller in Spain which I found interesting. Not sure if the coins are genuine or not but he seems to have a lot of them.
@Zoins this particular seller was on eBay selling for about 4 months’s. He had some
other fakes but forget what they were. Those were not as good as this one.
I haven’t seen him or any others coming out of Israel
Since a number of "acceptable" colonials are acknowledged or suspected counterfeits and since Bungtown coppers (1/2 penny as above) are part of this history, I see no reason not to slab them - there is a difference IMO. (Also included in the Redbook.) I was surprised and disappointed that I had to go to SEGS to get my contemporary counterfeit 1/2 penny in plastic. I was also disappointed that SEGS didn't show a lot of imagination labeling it. "A foolish consistency....."
@oldabeintx said:
Since a number of "acceptable" colonials are acknowledged or suspected counterfeits and since Bungtown coppers (1/2 penny as above) are part of this history, I see no reason not to slab them - there is a difference IMO. (Also included in the Redbook.) I was surprised and disappointed that I had to go to SEGS to get my contemporary counterfeit 1/2 penny in plastic. I was also disappointed that SEGS didn't show a lot of imagination labeling it. "A foolish consistency....."
What did they put in the label? Do you have photos?
What did they put in the label? Do you have photos?
Same as the ICG example above posted by astrorat, front and back. I put notes on the submission asking that they label it a Bungtown copper, etc. Can't imagine what harm that would have done. (Maybe they didn't have space?)
@Insider2 said:
In the "old days" when a counterfeit was discovered that had fooled everyone (including expert professional dealers) for awhile, they were taken off the market. They were melted or put in C/F reference collections. Back then these fakes were treated just as the crude Chinese junk is today.
Now things are different. IMO this new craze, accepting fakes in the marketplace (Example: Assigning VAM numbers to fakes and selling them as desirable varieties) and pushing them out at high dollar values began with the "Micro O" dollars. These fakes had been passed as genuine, cataloged, published in the major reference, and slabbed as genuine by every major TPGS. So many individuals, companies, etc were "invested" in these coins that an exception was made. Some folks returned the coins back for refunds but many more kept them and their prices did not crash.
IMO, Machin Mills, old electros, evasion tokens, etc and even "Micro O's have a place in numismatic history and in counterfeit collections/teaching sets...BUT
I wonder if the crude Chinese junk of today will be collectible tomorrow. It seems so many counterfeits are collectible now that one has to wonder. The assignment of VAM numbers to fakes is an interesting development.
There are at least fore levels of Chinese fakes.
real crap
crap
decent fakes
State-of-the-Art counterfeits that have been/are being slabbed by our best and brightest authenticators. These coins are avidly collected and they are EXPENSIVE because they easily pass as genuine and the folks who got stuck with them don't give them away cheaply!
Trade, Bust, and Flowing Hair dollars, colonials plus Half and Large cents are eagerly collected - and expensive.
Are there any photos of the state-of-the-art ones? It's interesting that Chinese fakes are valued and collected at that level.
They have been posted here and on other forms by Jack Young.
Are they the ones made from real coins?
All quality struck counterfeits are made from transfer dies that are made from high grade genuine coins by various transfer techniques such as casting or EDM machining.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
@Insider2 said:
In the "old days" when a counterfeit was discovered that had fooled everyone (including expert professional dealers) for awhile, they were taken off the market. They were melted or put in C/F reference collections. Back then these fakes were treated just as the crude Chinese junk is today.
Now things are different. IMO this new craze, accepting fakes in the marketplace (Example: Assigning VAM numbers to fakes and selling them as desirable varieties) and pushing them out at high dollar values began with the "Micro O" dollars. These fakes had been passed as genuine, cataloged, published in the major reference, and slabbed as genuine by every major TPGS. So many individuals, companies, etc were "invested" in these coins that an exception was made. Some folks returned the coins back for refunds but many more kept them and their prices did not crash.
IMO, Machin Mills, old electros, evasion tokens, etc and even "Micro O's have a place in numismatic history and in counterfeit collections/teaching sets...BUT
I wonder if the crude Chinese junk of today will be collectible tomorrow. It seems so many counterfeits are collectible now that one has to wonder. The assignment of VAM numbers to fakes is an interesting development.
There are at least fore levels of Chinese fakes.
real crap
crap
decent fakes
State-of-the-Art counterfeits that have been/are being slabbed by our best and brightest authenticators. These coins are avidly collected and they are EXPENSIVE because they easily pass as genuine and the folks who got stuck with them don't give them away cheaply!
Trade, Bust, and Flowing Hair dollars, colonials plus Half and Large cents are eagerly collected - and expensive.
Are there any photos of the state-of-the-art ones? It's interesting that Chinese fakes are valued and collected at that level.
They have been posted here and on other forms by Jack Young.
Are they the ones made from real coins?
All quality struck counterfeits are made from transfer dies that are made from high grade genuine coins by various transfer techniques such as casting or EDM machining.
What are the oldest transfer die counterfeits? I know about Paul Gerow Franklin and the Massapequa Mint. Are any older?
I wonder if Paul’s Clark Grubers will show up again. I did see one overstruck an Irish coin in PCGS slab labeled as a “Fantasy” a while back. I think it was offered for $20,000 or so. I wonder how much a non overstruck one would go for.
If a TPG recognizes that a submitted coin is a fake, do they not have to "invalidate" by stamping FAKE on it?
@CaptHenway said:
The state of the art, virtually undetectable counterfeits first appeared around 1981. At the time we speculated that they were coming from Switzerland or Germany, but we never established a source. The first good Chinese counterfeit I ever saw was at the end of 2007.
I believe in the early 70s the fakes were made in Lebanon by an American, a Swiss and a Lebanese man.
I used to know the whole story about 35 years ago.
they purchased low cost suitable silver and gold coins and melted them so they had the proper alloy component. then made dies for expensive coins and started to strike coins. they were successful and had even fooled banks and high end collectors. they had distributors and were careful about that.
Another, different story is that a respected Dentist in the Black Forest set up an old press, made dies in his basement with his dentistry equipment and started to produce German and US gold coins that were so good that even German banks and police could not tell a difference..he even apparently had a way to age the coins. At that time all banks in Germany accepted Gold coins for exchange into local currency. One of the local bankers in Karlsruhe became suspicious one day and informed police . Apparently the dentist frequently brought US and German gold coins into the small bank branch saying his US customers paid him with coins....and the trap was set...and the rest is history.... However, charges did not stick...as it became very convoluted because the fakes were so good that it could not be proven they came from his press. they could not be matched.
I will try and find this story somewhere in history and re-post it if and when I find it.
What did they put in the label? Do you have photos?
Same as the ICG example above posted by astrorat, front and back. I put notes on the submission asking that they label it a Bungtown copper, etc. Can't imagine what harm that would have done. (Maybe they didn't have space?)
IMO, "Imitation British Halfpenny" or "British Evasion Token" sounds more like something a "high-brow" numismatist might use to ID your Bungtown. I've ordered a reference book so we can try to attribute these popular collectables in the future.
Anyway, if you wish a "custom label" and wish to pay for it, I should think any TPGS would put anything on the label you wish that fits.
@coinsarefun said:
I bought this last year and posted it. Although came from Israel seller on eBay
I’ve always thought this was a Chinese counterfeit. And, a pretty good one.
.
.
The all brown one in the gif, is what I purchased. The red/brown is from coinfacts.
.
.
Yes, but I think it makes a difference to counterfeit collectors. After all, if one paid for a Omega counterfeit, I'm sure they would be disappointed if they received a modern counterfeit from Alibaba.
@coinsarefun said:
What about the Wyatt copies? PCGS ad. NGC has. Beenslabbing these
That's another interesting case. PCGS and NGC slab the Thomas Wyatt pieces with the "copy" moniker but Sydney Noe calls them counterfeits. Eric Newman called his an "imitation".
Also, since they are struck in the 1850s, they can't really be called "contemporary counterfeits".
IMO, "Imitation British Halfpenny" or "British Evasion Token" sounds more like something a "high-brow" numismatist might use to ID your Bungtown. I've ordered a reference book so we can try to attribute these popular collectables in the future.
Anyway, if you wish a "custom label" and wish to pay for it, I should think any TPGS would put anything on the label you wish that fits.
Agree with your more distinguished titles. I contacted both PCGS and NGC and they both said they wouldn't slab these, although the person I talked to in each case didn't seem to really know what I was talking about. Perhaps I should have persisted.
@Zoins I did read that years back. Seeing the link again made me think of this struck silver Three Pence counterfeit.
I was researching years back and copied this information on references of the maker.
He did make others such as pine tree shillings and more but by the time I figured out why his fakes were going
for such high prices the auctions were taken down.......which I would have jumped on them.
.
.
Trevor Ashmore was infamous for producing modern copies of ancient English coins in the 1960s. The main difference between real coins and Ashmore copies are that the letters tend to be thinner in appearance In 1972 he set up the company 'Period Coins' producing replica coins, selling mostly to numismatists in the United States. The business eventually failed but he remained in production of replica coins until the early 1990s. Ashmore tended to concentrate on silver coins, his coins have appeared in the IBSCC's Bulletin on Counterfeits as well as Spink's Numismatic Circular, April 2000, pp.50-54, coin no. 16
.
.
Yes, but I think it makes a difference to counterfeit collectors. After all, if one paid for a Omega counterfeit, I'm sure they would be disappointed if they received a modern counterfeit from Alibaba.
Good point I hadn't considered that aspect of the hobby. Perhaps worth a discussion here on Name the slab. Authentic or authenticated counterfeit?
It just seems genuine counterfiet is imo a bit awkward.
mikebyers.com Dealer in Major Mint Errors, Die Trials & Patterns - Author of NLG Best World Coin Book World's Greatest Mint Errors - Publisher & Editor of minterrornews.com.
Comments
NOT the new ones. The point I'm making is in the old days when you were at ANACS, these fakes would have been DELISTED COMPLETLY in any new additions of the V & M dollar book perhaps with a chapter added about them and their history.
You don't see the "Omega's" glorified although they are collected. AFAIK, most were considered "scrap." One of mine was saved from the refiner! I happened to be at the right place and time to get it.
Why is this changing? Are there a lot of collectors for these?
I bought this last year and posted it. Although came from Israel seller on eBay
I’ve always thought this was a Chinese counterfeit. And, a pretty good one.
.
.
The all brown one in the gif, is what I purchased. The red/brown is from coinfacts.
.
.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Are there a lot of these coming out of Israel?
I've followed Chinese error coins and I've noticed that a lot of them come raw from a single eBay seller in Spain which I found interesting. Not sure if the coins are genuine or not but he seems to have a lot of them.
@Zoins this particular seller was on eBay selling for about 4 months’s. He had some
other fakes but forget what they were. Those were not as good as this one.
I haven’t seen him or any others coming out of Israel
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
I have always been of the opinion to give them VAM or FS styled numbers and shine light on the issue.
So what if they obtain some value?
The existing collector base will eventually weed these out and succeeding generations will better informed.
BST: KindaNewish (3/21/21), WQuarterFreddie (3/30/21), Meltdown (4/6/21), DBSTrader2 (5/5/21) AKA- unclemonkey on Blow Out
Since a number of "acceptable" colonials are acknowledged or suspected counterfeits and since Bungtown coppers (1/2 penny as above) are part of this history, I see no reason not to slab them - there is a difference IMO. (Also included in the Redbook.) I was surprised and disappointed that I had to go to SEGS to get my contemporary counterfeit 1/2 penny in plastic. I was also disappointed that SEGS didn't show a lot of imagination labeling it. "A foolish consistency....."
What did they put in the label? Do you have photos?
Same as the ICG example above posted by astrorat, front and back. I put notes on the submission asking that they label it a Bungtown copper, etc. Can't imagine what harm that would have done. (Maybe they didn't have space?)
All quality struck counterfeits are made from transfer dies that are made from high grade genuine coins by various transfer techniques such as casting or EDM machining.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
First thing I thought. It's genuine but fake???
I'd say destroy it as all counterfeits should be but looks like this one pretty much is destroyed already.
The whole worlds off its rocker, buy Gold™.
What are the oldest transfer die counterfeits? I know about Paul Gerow Franklin and the Massapequa Mint. Are any older?
I wonder if Paul’s Clark Grubers will show up again. I did see one overstruck an Irish coin in PCGS slab labeled as a “Fantasy” a while back. I think it was offered for $20,000 or so. I wonder how much a non overstruck one would go for.
If a TPG recognizes that a submitted coin is a fake, do they not have to "invalidate" by stamping FAKE on it?
I believe in the early 70s the fakes were made in Lebanon by an American, a Swiss and a Lebanese man.
I used to know the whole story about 35 years ago.
they purchased low cost suitable silver and gold coins and melted them so they had the proper alloy component. then made dies for expensive coins and started to strike coins. they were successful and had even fooled banks and high end collectors. they had distributors and were careful about that.
Another, different story is that a respected Dentist in the Black Forest set up an old press, made dies in his basement with his dentistry equipment and started to produce German and US gold coins that were so good that even German banks and police could not tell a difference..he even apparently had a way to age the coins. At that time all banks in Germany accepted Gold coins for exchange into local currency. One of the local bankers in Karlsruhe became suspicious one day and informed police . Apparently the dentist frequently brought US and German gold coins into the small bank branch saying his US customers paid him with coins....and the trap was set...and the rest is history.... However, charges did not stick...as it became very convoluted because the fakes were so good that it could not be proven they came from his press. they could not be matched.
I will try and find this story somewhere in history and re-post it if and when I find it.
IMO, "Imitation British Halfpenny" or "British Evasion Token" sounds more like something a "high-brow" numismatist might use to ID your Bungtown. I've ordered a reference book so we can try to attribute these popular collectables in the future.
Anyway, if you wish a "custom label" and wish to pay for it, I should think any TPGS would put anything on the label you wish that fits.
Worth repeating.
I think slabbing a counterfeit as a counterfeit is still better than slabbing a counterfeit as a restrike or a fantasy.
Seems like the 1848 small date has been slabbed both as a contemporary counterfeit and a fantasy.
Genuine counterfiet = oxymoron
Hmmmm...the counterfeiters don't like boobs!
What about a counterfeit counterfeit
Redundant facsimiles
Yes, but I think it makes a difference to counterfeit collectors. After all, if one paid for a Omega counterfeit, I'm sure they would be disappointed if they received a modern counterfeit from Alibaba.
What about the Wyatt copies? PCGS ad. NGC has. Beenslabbing these.
.
.
Link to coinfacts
.
.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
That's another interesting case. PCGS and NGC slab the Thomas Wyatt pieces with the "copy" moniker but Sydney Noe calls them counterfeits. Eric Newman called his an "imitation".
Also, since they are struck in the 1850s, they can't really be called "contemporary counterfeits".
Here's a good article on these from E-Sylum:
https://www.coinbooks.org/esylum_v18n21a07.html
Agree with your more distinguished titles. I contacted both PCGS and NGC and they both said they wouldn't slab these, although the person I talked to in each case didn't seem to really know what I was talking about. Perhaps I should have persisted.
@Zoins I did read that years back. Seeing the link again made me think of this struck silver Three Pence counterfeit.
I was researching years back and copied this information on references of the maker.
He did make others such as pine tree shillings and more but by the time I figured out why his fakes were going
for such high prices the auctions were taken down.......which I would have jumped on them.
.
.
Trevor Ashmore was infamous for producing modern copies of ancient English coins in the 1960s. The main difference between real coins and Ashmore copies are that the letters tend to be thinner in appearance In 1972 he set up the company 'Period Coins' producing replica coins, selling mostly to numismatists in the United States. The business eventually failed but he remained in production of replica coins until the early 1990s. Ashmore tended to concentrate on silver coins, his coins have appeared in the IBSCC's Bulletin on Counterfeits as well as Spink's Numismatic Circular, April 2000, pp.50-54, coin no. 16
.
.
.
CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
.
Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
.
More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
Good point I hadn't considered that aspect of the hobby. Perhaps worth a discussion here on Name the slab. Authentic or authenticated counterfeit?
It just seems genuine counterfiet is imo a bit awkward.
This struck me as odd yet cool! Has PCGS's opinion on encapsulating these contemporary counterfeits changed? Are there other examples?
peacockcoins
Very cool thread Zoins!
and a very old thread.
Insider was here.
BHNC #203