@Davemri said:
I know its super early in his career, but any idea what is "the" card to get of Antonio Brown? He's one of the rare ones that doesn't have a TC RC
I went with the Donruss Elite card/999 for Brown....a little bit of WAYYY forshadowing on my part....but in the case of Arian Foster, Elite was used. This is why I chose that one. It only graded a 9 though. :-(
@FavreFan1971 said:
My definition of lock is what the voters will do. My personal opinion is not included. If it were LeRoy Butler would be my #1 ;-) LOL. I see the voters voting Eli Manning ahead of a decent portion of your list. Why? Because he is from New York. Because he won two Super Bowl MVP's. Because he beat the best QB in the history of the NFL in the Super Bowl (my opinion is Montana but the voters love Brady). TWICE LOL. Lastly, because he is a MANNING. I would bet Archie has greased somebody(s), somewhere to make this happen. We all know he ran their lives up to and after the draft and knows how to influence.
In my opinion, Manning will voted in before the following from your list.
Steve Smith
Andre Johnson
Steve Atwater
Dwight Freeney
Antonio Gates
Revis
Ward
Boselli
I am not saying all from you list will get voted in but I am saying Manning will get voted in before they get voted in.
Fair assessment. My list is also based on what i think the voters will do. I don't predict HOFers by any other measure...
Also Eli will always draw comparisons to Peyton, and that will hurt him not help...I have 5 QBs on my list, any debate that they all go in before Eli? Maybe even 6 as Aaron Rodgers is clearly a better QB and another championship for him along the way would put ELi as the 7th QB from this era...He's going to have a tough road as his eye test doesn't compare well to any of them, and they all have Super Bowl rings...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
All depends when they retire and when Eli retires. But if Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben and Eli retire the year all of them and his brother go in before him. And JJ Watt too ;-)
I also have Watt(and Megatron) above Eli at this point...So if this is the case, and Eli is the 5th or 6th QB from this era up for votes, just as I suspected, he's in for quite a long wait...If he gets in at all...Will be interesting to see where he finishes and stacks up..If he can accumulate Peyton-esque numbers before he retires, then he will surely move up the list...Or somehow a 3rd Championship that could at least separate him from being compared to Jim Plunkett...lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@Davemri said:
I know its super early in his career, but any idea what is "the" card to get of Antonio Brown? He's one of the rare ones that doesn't have a TC RC
I went with the Donruss Elite card/999 for Brown....a little bit of WAYYY forshadowing on my part....but in the case of Arian Foster, Elite was used. This is why I chose that one. It only graded a 9 though. :-(
I like this card as well. A bit challenging to find though. There is a PSA 8.5 for sale on eBay now, but tough in higher grades. Only one 10 so far I believe.
Who threw for more than 58,000 yards and 369 TD's with another 82 rushing TD's but has never received serious consideration for the Pro Football Hall of Fame?
At first I was thinking Testeverde but he could not run for 8.2 let alone 82 TD's. Flutie will never get a serious thought. Heck, barely anyone from the CFL gets any thoughts. There are some insane "yard" stats in their record books.
Agreed. Guess my point is maybe it should be the AFL/NFL Hall of Fame and not Pro Football Hall of Fame. Perhaps more impressive than Flutie's stats are the the three Gray Cup championships, 3 Gray Cup MVPs and six League MVPs. He's in the CFL Hall of Fame and is the only non-Canadian in the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame. Fan or not, if you ever get the chance to se the ESPN SportsCentury on him it is worth a watch.
I think the issue with CFL players/stats, is that they are minor leaguers...Putting one in the Pro Football Hall of Fame would be like taking an average MLB player who had a huge minor league career and trying to add their numbers from Double AA or Triple AAA to their MLB numbers...True, they are all professional and get paid, its against inferior competition, so the numbers and Championships don't hold even close to the same weight...
I always thought Flutie was better than average NFL QB, if he would have gotten a shot to play 20 years in the NFL, we might be discussing him as a HOF guy...Put wasnt in the cards for him...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@Davemri said:
I know its super early in his career, but any idea what is "the" card to get of Antonio Brown? He's one of the rare ones that doesn't have a TC RC
I went with the Donruss Elite card/999 for Brown....a little bit of WAYYY forshadowing on my part....but in the case of Arian Foster, Elite was used. This is why I chose that one. It only graded a 9 though. :-(
I like this card as well. A bit challenging to find though. There is a PSA 8.5 for sale on eBay now, but tough in higher grades. Only one 10 so far I believe.
That 10 only sold for 75ish recently from one of the big guys on ebay
Devin Hester retiring...Will make for a very interesting HOF case in a few years...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@BillsGridironGreats said:
Based on the luck I had with Arian Foster and the only 10 - we all should have bought that Antonio Brown card for $75 - it was a steal!
My luck with grading Fosters was terrible too. Probably 5 of them and only 2 8.5s....rest were 8s. Elite is a tough grade. This years Elliott is at PSA now for me. But I invested more in Prizm. Pretty sure Paninni killed the brand by not serial numbering the base RCs this year. I have also heard the Donruss Optic will be the card to have....but havent researched it at all yet. Not even sure it is out yet.
I somewhat follow the CFL and collect RC's of HOFers (pre 1973). Flutie was voted the #1 CFL player all time when they put a top 50 list together. His brother Darren is #50 .....they call them bookends. Nobody cares ? right !!!
While I strongly disagree on his being #1 he did win a ton of awards. If this were the basketball HOF where just about all your past is looked at he is a 1000% lock.
The CFL is a totally different game in so many ways. Flutie at 5'9 certainly made the most of his abilities.
Jason is right about the competition. The CFL is mostly guys who couldn't make NFL starting teams. Don't think for one moment that if Flutie could have been a NFL starter his whole career, with the shortage of QB's that he wouldn't have been there. His 1985 USFL RC is priced like a NFL HOF'er.
Thank you Joe and a few others for the Eli comments. On another note and following the very legal hit by Clowney on Brady. Looks to me like a guy easy tackling a running QB who he doesn't realize has thrown the ball, or too late to stop. Now to the point: in your opinion who is the biggest baby past or present at QB? Gonna be hard to pick someone prior to the rule change. Could be college also. Who is the toughest QB out there? I don't necessarily mean hardest to bring down like big Ben.
Collecting PSA... FB,BK,HK,and BB HOF RC sets 1948-76 Topps FB Sets FB & BB HOF Player sets 1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
@BillsGridironGreats said:
Based on the luck I had with Arian Foster and the only 10 - we all should have bought that Antonio Brown card for $75 - it was a steal!
My luck with grading Fosters was terrible too. Probably 5 of them and only 2 8.5s....rest were 8s. Elite is a tough grade. This years Elliott is at PSA now for me. But I invested more in Prizm. Pretty sure Paninni killed the brand by not serial numbering the base RCs this year. I have also heard the Donruss Optic will be the card to have....but havent researched it at all yet. Not even sure it is out yet.
I went with Prizm for the Cowboys rookie set. The Prizm rookies have been selling well for this year's rookie class so I believe it will be the product chosen. Optic seems to be popular because of the on card autos and parallel collectors.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys - Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2 touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL title.
@jay0791 said:
I somewhat follow the CFL and collect RC's of HOFers (pre 1973). Flutie was voted the #1 CFL player all time when they put a top 50 list together. His brother Darren is #50 .....they call them bookends. Nobody cares ? right !!!
While I strongly disagree on his being #1 he did win a ton of awards. If this were the basketball HOF where just about all your past is looked at he is a 1000% lock.
The CFL is a totally different game in so many ways. Flutie at 5'9 certainly made the most of his abilities.
Jason is right about the competition. The CFL is mostly guys who couldn't make NFL starting teams. Don't think for one moment that if Flutie could have been a NFL starter his whole career, with the shortage of QB's that he wouldn't have been there. His 1985 USFL RC is priced like a NFL HOF'er.
Thank you Joe and a few others for the Eli comments. On another note and following the very legal hit by Clowney on Brady. Looks to me like a guy easy tackling a running QB who he doesn't realize has thrown the ball, or too late to stop. Now to the point: in your opinion who is the biggest baby past or present at QB? Gonna be hard to pick someone prior to the rule change. Could be college also. Who is the toughest QB out there? I don't necessarily mean hardest to bring down like big Ben.
Phillip Rivers is a whiny b---h on the field....Not only that but he's also a real tool in person...Would be my pick...He's tough and can take a hit but he throws at least 2 temper tantrums per game..
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
What's the consensus on Boldin? Seems largely at the compiling point of a pretty solid career, but a body of work plenty large enough for consideration.
52-90 All Sports, Mostly Topps, Mostly HOF, and some assorted wax.
I've got him right there along with Andre Johnson, Steve Smith Sr., Isaac Bruce Hines Ward, and Reggie Wayne. They are going to have to wait for TO and Moss. I think Fitzgerald is a certainty within the first couple years of his eligibility too. All of these guys are all worthy candidates IMO, but will likely take support away from one another and may have to wait many years a la Cris Carter, Andre Reed and Tim Brown.
Never met Rivers, but he does come off as a whiner and jerk. Brady's outbursts are perhaps the best publicized though many are directed at his own team in what I can only imagine is his effort to motivate them. Admittedly, I'm not a great historian of football pre 1970's, but I can't think of anyone at the QB position tougher than Favre. Took huge shots and would get up and pat the opponent on the head. Don't remember him getting after the officials or throwing too many tantrums on the sidelines either.
I always though Peyton Manning was a wimpy - watching him curl up in the fetal position every time a defender got a run on him. I agree on Favre he was tough as nails - and he is missing some intestine from a car wreck prior to NFL.
@sufferingbillsfan said:
I've got him right there along with Andre Johnson, Steve Smith Sr., Isaac Bruce Hines Ward, and Reggie Wayne. They are going to have to wait for TO and Moss. I think Fitzgerald is a certainty within the first couple years of his eligibility too. All of these guys are all worthy candidates IMO, but will likely take support away from one another and may have to wait many years a la Cris Carter, Andre Reed and Tim Brown.
I have Boldin similar to this(assuming he's done playing)...Along with Johnson, Smith, Holt, Wayne and Calvin Johnson who I would call Tier 3..Tier 2 WRs I have Hines Ward and Bruce, along with Fitzgerald (would take him probably 2-3 more seasons or a Championship to approach Tier 1 level)...Moss and Owens are the only Tier 1 elite guys...Obviously they will go in...The Tier 2 guys I would consider fairly likely to get in at some point....The Tier 3 guys are a tough call..I dont think all of them get in...Maybe 2 or 3 of those 6 way down the road...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@JasP24 said:
So Eli is first ballot? All LOCKS are...He will need to have Peyton level numbers or a 3rd SB ring to be first ballot IMO.
I've been to the Baseball HOF, an amazing place...But gotta tell ya, I see a ton of guys in the baseball HOF I wouldnt consider elite...I mean other than gamblers and steroid users, who exactly is the Baseball HOF excluding who is more deserving than any NFL HOFer? Just an argument I've heard more than a few times, and while I do agree that the NFL HOF has been a bit more inclusive over the years than maybe it should be, MLB HOF isn't any tougher to get in to...
As different as the voting processes are, when you look at who is in and who isn't, the only thing it changes is speed of entry.
@JasP24 said:
So Eli is first ballot? All LOCKS are...He will need to have Peyton level numbers or a 3rd SB ring to be first ballot IMO.
I've been to the Baseball HOF, an amazing place...But gotta tell ya, I see a ton of guys in the baseball HOF I wouldnt consider elite...I mean other than gamblers and steroid users, who exactly is the Baseball HOF excluding who is more deserving than any NFL HOFer? Just an argument I've heard more than a few times, and while I do agree that the NFL HOF has been a bit more inclusive over the years than maybe it should be, MLB HOF isn't any tougher to get in to...
As different as the voting processes are, when you look at who is in and who isn't, the only thing it changes is speed of entry.
@JasP24 said:
So Eli is first ballot? All LOCKS are...He will need to have Peyton level numbers or a 3rd SB ring to be first ballot IMO.
I've been to the Baseball HOF, an amazing place...But gotta tell ya, I see a ton of guys in the baseball HOF I wouldnt consider elite...I mean other than gamblers and steroid users, who exactly is the Baseball HOF excluding who is more deserving than any NFL HOFer? Just an argument I've heard more than a few times, and while I do agree that the NFL HOF has been a bit more inclusive over the years than maybe it should be, MLB HOF isn't any tougher to get in to...
As different as the voting processes are, when you look at who is in and who isn't, the only thing it changes is speed of entry.
@JasP24 said:
So Eli is first ballot? All LOCKS are...He will need to have Peyton level numbers or a 3rd SB ring to be first ballot IMO.
I've been to the Baseball HOF, an amazing place...But gotta tell ya, I see a ton of guys in the baseball HOF I wouldnt consider elite...I mean other than gamblers and steroid users, who exactly is the Baseball HOF excluding who is more deserving than any NFL HOFer? Just an argument I've heard more than a few times, and while I do agree that the NFL HOF has been a bit more inclusive over the years than maybe it should be, MLB HOF isn't any tougher to get in to...
As different as the voting processes are, when you look at who is in and who isn't, the only thing it changes is speed of entry.
@JasP24 said:
So Eli is first ballot? All LOCKS are...He will need to have Peyton level numbers or a 3rd SB ring to be first ballot IMO.
I've been to the Baseball HOF, an amazing place...But gotta tell ya, I see a ton of guys in the baseball HOF I wouldnt consider elite...I mean other than gamblers and steroid users, who exactly is the Baseball HOF excluding who is more deserving than any NFL HOFer? Just an argument I've heard more than a few times, and while I do agree that the NFL HOF has been a bit more inclusive over the years than maybe it should be, MLB HOF isn't any tougher to get in to...
As different as the voting processes are, when you look at who is in and who isn't, the only thing it changes is speed of entry.
@JasP24 said:
So Eli is first ballot? All LOCKS are...He will need to have Peyton level numbers or a 3rd SB ring to be first ballot IMO.
I've been to the Baseball HOF, an amazing place...But gotta tell ya, I see a ton of guys in the baseball HOF I wouldnt consider elite...I mean other than gamblers and steroid users, who exactly is the Baseball HOF excluding who is more deserving than any NFL HOFer? Just an argument I've heard more than a few times, and while I do agree that the NFL HOF has been a bit more inclusive over the years than maybe it should be, MLB HOF isn't any tougher to get in to...
As different as the voting processes are, when you look at who is in and who isn't, the only thing it changes is speed of entry.
@JasP24 said:
So Eli is first ballot? All LOCKS are...He will need to have Peyton level numbers or a 3rd SB ring to be first ballot IMO.
I've been to the Baseball HOF, an amazing place...But gotta tell ya, I see a ton of guys in the baseball HOF I wouldnt consider elite...I mean other than gamblers and steroid users, who exactly is the Baseball HOF excluding who is more deserving than any NFL HOFer? Just an argument I've heard more than a few times, and while I do agree that the NFL HOF has been a bit more inclusive over the years than maybe it should be, MLB HOF isn't any tougher to get in to...
As different as the voting processes are, when you look at who is in and who isn't, the only thing it changes is speed of entry.
@JasP24 said:
So Eli is first ballot? All LOCKS are...He will need to have Peyton level numbers or a 3rd SB ring to be first ballot IMO.
I've been to the Baseball HOF, an amazing place...But gotta tell ya, I see a ton of guys in the baseball HOF I wouldnt consider elite...I mean other than gamblers and steroid users, who exactly is the Baseball HOF excluding who is more deserving than any NFL HOFer? Just an argument I've heard more than a few times, and while I do agree that the NFL HOF has been a bit more inclusive over the years than maybe it should be, MLB HOF isn't any tougher to get in to...
As different as the voting processes are, when you look at who is in and who isn't, the only thing it changes is speed of entry.
@JasP24 said:
So Eli is first ballot? All LOCKS are...He will need to have Peyton level numbers or a 3rd SB ring to be first ballot IMO.
I've been to the Baseball HOF, an amazing place...But gotta tell ya, I see a ton of guys in the baseball HOF I wouldnt consider elite...I mean other than gamblers and steroid users, who exactly is the Baseball HOF excluding who is more deserving than any NFL HOFer? Just an argument I've heard more than a few times, and while I do agree that the NFL HOF has been a bit more inclusive over the years than maybe it should be, MLB HOF isn't any tougher to get in to...
As different as the voting processes are, when you look at who is in and who isn't, the only thing it changes is speed of entry @JasP24 said:
@sufferingbillsfan said:
I've got him right there along with Andre Johnson, Steve Smith Sr., Isaac Bruce Hines Ward, and Reggie Wayne. They are going to have to wait for TO and Moss. I think Fitzgerald is a certainty within the first couple years of his eligibility too. All of these guys are all worthy candidates IMO, but will likely take support away from one another and may have to wait many years a la Cris Carter, Andre Reed and Tim Brown.
I have Boldin similar to this(assuming he's done playing)...Along with Johnson, Smith, Holt, Wayne and Calvin Johnson who I would call Tier 3..Tier 2 WRs I have Hines Ward and Bruce, along with Fitzgerald (would take him probably 2-3 more seasons or a Championship to approach Tier 1 level)...Moss and Owens are the only Tier 1 elite guys...Obviously they will go in...The Tier 2 guys I would consider fairly likely to get in at some point....The Tier 3 guys are a tough call..I dont think all of them get in...Maybe 2 or 3 of those 6 way down the
@sufferingbillsfan said:
I've got him right there along with Andre Johnson, Steve Smith Sr., Isaac Bruce Hines Ward, and Reggie Wayne. They are going to have to wait for TO and Moss. I think Fitzgerald is a certainty within the first couple years of his eligibility too. All of these guys are all worthy candidates IMO, but will likely take support away from one another and may have to wait many years a la Cris Carter, Andre Reed and Tim Brown.
I have Boldin similar to this(assuming he's done playing)...Along with Johnson, Smith, Holt, Wayne and Calvin Johnson who I would call Tier 3..Tier 2 WRs I have Hines Ward and Bruce, along with Fitzgerald (would take him probably 2-3 more seasons or a Championship to approach Tier 1 level)...Moss and Owens are the only Tier 1 elite guys...Obviously they will go in...The Tier 2 guys I would consider fairly likely to get in at some point....The Tier 3 guys are a tough call..I dont think all of them get in...Maybe 2 or 3 of those 6 way down the road...
So are you calling TO a lock even though he was not first ballot?
I did think T.O. was a lock prior to being on his first ballot...Felt the same about Marvin Harrison...But once a guy gets passed over, he's no longer 100% lock for induction. Logic would dictate that while that player may have 90% or even 99% odds moving forward, you can no longer consider him a LOCK or a GUARANTEE or 100% as going in after the HOF voters have given you factual information that says they are willing to bypass the player for others...
Now I would say there is an exception to this....If we were to get FIVE first ballot HOFers in one year and a 6th first ballot "lock" got bumped, then I wouldn't consider that getting passed over, that would simply be a numbers game..But that hasn't happened..
Maybe instead of using terms like LOCK and GUARANTEE moving forward I will try and remember to use % odds so there is less confusion on what is meant by the other terms...
That being said, I didnt reference T.O. as a lock in my recent post, just said he's pretty obviously going to go in, which is the case for 95% of the candidates who makes the cut to the final 15 in their first year of eligibility...I believe he will go in this year and Moss next year, but are they 100% going in or locks or guaranteed induction? No..Just 90% likely
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
2018 class is going to be interesting. Among the first time eligibles are: Urlacher, Seymour, Moss, Lewis, Hutchinson. I think all are getting in quickly. In my mind Lewis and Moss are locks, guaranteed, 95%, whatever term you choose. Curious as to who everyone thinks are first ballot guys? What's the most first ballot inductees in a previous class?
Given we are all stating opinions I think we need a set of terms here so we are not going to get confused. When we use the following in posts here let's use the following terms.
1st Ballot = Player who will be elected on his first ballot.
Lock = Player who will 100% get in even if he does not get in on his first ballot.
Guarantee = Same as lock but has three syllables
Tier 1 = Players that have an 85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 2 = Players that have a 50-85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 3 = Players that have less than 25% change of getting in as a modern candidate
Tier Pi = Players that have less than 3.14% of getting in as a modern or senior candidate.
Sure thing = Similar to Lock but used to muddy the waters to garner spirited discussion.
Spirited Discussion = Full blown, drawn out brawl of opinion and candor. LOL must be used at least twice but no more than four times in a post to be considered spirited.
Down Right Arrogant = Using LOL, ALL CAPS, or BOLD more than four times in a post or a combination of seven or more in on calendar day. This usually results in someone copying and pasting their replies to try and one up them.
Copy and Pasters = Users who focus on one word to derail the intended discussion. These users most likely majored in English or Poly Sci in college.
Poly Sci = The most useless college major next to art.
Art = The skill to meander through these forums without pissing someone off.
I hope we can all agree on these terms and use them appropriately in the future.
I agree it seems others like to change the definition of terms to go along with their narrative that they have constructed in which they are seldom or never wrong.
A PSA 8 Frank Gifford Rookie ( Large ) just rung up at $2800+ tonight on Ebay, very surprised this set is still going strong. I know a few heavy hitters got out awhile ago.
@FavreFan1971 said:
Given we are all stating opinions I think we need a set of terms here so we are not going to get confused. When we use the following in posts here let's use the following terms.
1st Ballot = Player who will be elected on his first ballot.
Lock = Player who will 100% get in even if he does not get in on his first ballot.
Guarantee = Same as lock but has three syllables
Tier 1 = Players that have an 85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 2 = Players that have a 50-85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 3 = Players that have less than 25% change of getting in as a modern candidate
Tier Pi = Players that have less than 3.14% of getting in as a modern or senior candidate.
Sure thing = Similar to Lock but used to muddy the waters to garner spirited discussion.
Spirited Discussion = Full blown, drawn out brawl of opinion and candor. LOL must be used at least twice but no more than four times in a post to be considered spirited.
Down Right Arrogant = Using LOL, ALL CAPS, or BOLD more than four times in a post or a combination of seven or more in on calendar day. This usually results in someone copying and pasting their replies to try and one up them.
Copy and Pasters = Users who focus on one word to derail the intended discussion. These users most likely majored in English or Poly Sci in college.
Poly Sci = The most useless college major next to art.
Art = The skill to meander through these forums without pissing someone off.
I hope we can all agree on these terms and use them appropriately in the future.
HAHAAH....This is a "keeper"
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@sufferingbillsfan said:
2018 class is going to be interesting. Among the first time eligibles are: Urlacher, Seymour, Moss, Lewis, Hutchinson. I think all are getting in quickly. In my mind Lewis and Moss are locks, guaranteed, 95%, whatever term you choose. Curious as to who everyone thinks are first ballot guys? What's the most first ballot inductees in a previous class?
I have Lewis, Moss and Urlacher 1st ballot...Since 2004, when the HOF committee started the Semifinal process, we've not had more than 3 first ballot guys in any given year. Ray Lewis is really the only 100% guy out of these 3, but Moss and Urlacher are 90% guys IMO and have strong enough cases to go in first ballot, but what happens with T.O this year at WR could throw a monkey wrench on Moss votes...And Urlacher could lose some votes to Ray Lewis...Seymour and Hutchinson are likely HOFers as well, I'd but them in the 60-70% odds range...Seymour will be an interesting debate as as a DE/DT hybrid..Wasnt really a sack guy, but was great all around..Not really many to compare him to...Hutchinson being a Guard will likely slot behind Faneca, assuming Faneca doesn't go in this year.
The good news is 2020 is a pretty weak year, as well as 2022 if no other big hitters retire this offseason...Should assist guys like Seymour and Hutchinson.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@FavreFan1971 said:
Given we are all stating opinions I think we need a set of terms here so we are not going to get confused. When we use the following in posts here let's use the following terms.
1st Ballot = Player who will be elected on his first ballot.
Lock = Player who will 100% get in even if he does not get in on his first ballot.
Guarantee = Same as lock but has three syllables
Tier 1 = Players that have an 85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 2 = Players that have a 50-85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 3 = Players that have less than 25% change of getting in as a modern candidate
Tier Pi = Players that have less than 3.14% of getting in as a modern or senior candidate.
Sure thing = Similar to Lock but used to muddy the waters to garner spirited discussion.
Spirited Discussion = Full blown, drawn out brawl of opinion and candor. LOL must be used at least twice but no more than four times in a post to be considered spirited.
Down Right Arrogant = Using LOL, ALL CAPS, or BOLD more than four times in a post or a combination of seven or more in on calendar day. This usually results in someone copying and pasting their replies to try and one up them.
Copy and Pasters = Users who focus on one word to derail the intended discussion. These users most likely majored in English or Poly Sci in college.
Poly Sci = The most useless college major next to art.
Art = The skill to meander through these forums without pissing someone off.
I hope we can all agree on these terms and use them appropriately in the future.
Nah, have to keep my options open for my narrative...LOL and lol
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
@FavreFan1971 said:
Given we are all stating opinions I think we need a set of terms here so we are not going to get confused. When we use the following in posts here let's use the following terms.
1st Ballot = Player who will be elected on his first ballot.
Lock = Player who will 100% get in even if he does not get in on his first ballot.
Guarantee = Same as lock but has three syllables
Tier 1 = Players that have an 85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 2 = Players that have a 50-85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 3 = Players that have less than 25% change of getting in as a modern candidate
Tier Pi = Players that have less than 3.14% of getting in as a modern or senior candidate.
Sure thing = Similar to Lock but used to muddy the waters to garner spirited discussion.
Spirited Discussion = Full blown, drawn out brawl of opinion and candor. LOL must be used at least twice but no more than four times in a post to be considered spirited.
Down Right Arrogant = Using LOL, ALL CAPS, or BOLD more than four times in a post or a combination of seven or more in on calendar day. This usually results in someone copying and pasting their replies to try and one up them.
Copy and Pasters = Users who focus on one word to derail the intended discussion. These users most likely majored in English or Poly Sci in college.
Poly Sci = The most useless college major next to art.
Art = The skill to meander through these forums without pissing someone off.
I hope we can all agree on these terms and use them appropriately in the future.
HAHAAH....This is a "keeper"
LOL, THIS IS HILARIOUS BEST POST EVER 100% LOCK GUARANTEED! LOL
Eli needs to be more than just the 8th best QB of his era...The Super Bowl wins are the only reason he's in the conversation...Take away the Super Bowls and he'd slot in somewhere between Boomer Esiason and Drew Bledsoe career wise...
8th best QB with a couple of SB MVPs will certainly get some votes..But enough to make the HOF? Will be after the other 7, with Ben and Aaron still with an opportunity to extend their climb on the HOF list this year, and if Matt Ryan wins the championship and gets a SB MVP, he's right there with Eli already battling for the 8th QB spot of this era...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Ben Rothlisberger
Aaron Rodgers
Eli Manning
Phillip Rivers
Matt Ryan
Brady probably moves to #1 with a Championship this year...Ben jumps ahead of Warner, maybe even Brees with another ring...Aaron probably stays put but would extend the distance above Eli as of now I have them pretty even on HOF odds...Matt Ryan slots in right under Rodgers if he takes home the title...Will be a great Super Bowl this year, guaranteed to see 2 of the top 10 QBs of the past 20 years...
________-Edited to fix the list title______________-
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Hahha..Yeah guess I labelled that wrong..His career overlaps Eli's which is how he ended up on the list...But the point still a valid one.
This line of thinking comes from some of the research I have done in relation to statistical percentages of making the HOF. Variable being number of players from a specific position who played together in any given season. If Eli is the 8th best QB, and doesnt end up the 9th best QB to play, which right now, there are 7 (including Favre) from 2005-2009 ahead of him his odds are much better...
Only time in the post-war era there have been more than 8 HOF QBs playing in a given season was between 1969-1975...So would say if you arent in the top 8 QBs your odds are severely damaged. If Matt Ryan wins this Super Bowl (he played in 2008-2009), and/or gets the MVP and Super Bowl MVP, arguably he will surpass Eli.
Sorry if too confusing for anyone...
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree with you on Eli for the most part as far as where he ranks on your list, but he has 2 Super Bowl MVPs won against Bellichik and Brady, and all the regular season numbers. No way and I mean no way he is left outside of the HOF. My guess is first ballot, but it could be 2nd or 3rd, unless he pulls an OJ or a Darren Sharper before he is eligible he is a lock.
His regular season resume isnt too hot..Again, IMO somewhere between Esiason and Bledsoe..His Super Bowl wins will count alot for him, and will be his biggest selling point once his name gets in the room...But if he is the 8th QB, and even if you want to be very bullish on him his maybe 35th or so on the list of players not in the HOF yet...I just dont see who he's bumping to get in 1st or even 2nd ballot...Maybe 3rd, just based on the math of it..Unless he's going to play for 5-6 more years and no new HOF quality players are going to come out of the 2010-2015 group of players...For me, if he retired today, he's not getting in, but probably makes the top 15 at some point...If he plays 5 more years and pads his resume he could move up the list and be a guy who gets in year 2 or 3...He better hope Matt Ryan doesn't win this Super Bowl, will make Eli's chances way tougher.
Only get 5 in per year max..So just a numbers game...Will be interesting to see how much longer Eli plays and at what level...He could still move up and down that list.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Well, according to our definitions both are locks which means they get in but not on the first ballot. Ben gets in sooner as he dominated each game more than Eli. Ben also got better after 30 and his final years if he retired today.
I think Ben stacks up similar to Kurt Warner, a 70% HOF odds guy if he retired today. Not first ballot but a pretty strong case for election.
Eli and Ben will certainly be compared as they were drafted the same year. Ben wipes the floor with Eli in the regular season per game averages...Eli has played essentially another season (201 games to 185 games) and has definitely been very durable. Both have 2 rings, Ben doesnt get much credit for the 1st one, they were a running team and only his 2nd year in the league...BTW, Ben also had to go through and beat Brady to just GET to the SB 3 times...Yes Eli has the SB MVPs, but in both of Ben's championships his WRs got the MVP, arguably should have been him in 2008 (21-30, 256, 1TD)..Had they beaten Rodgers in his 3rd SB he would have certainly gotten MVP (no 100 yard WR or RBs)
In the end its the 70+ more turnovers for Eli that diminishes his career. That and a 108-91 regular season record.
I'm here to question, not to inspire or build up. To live how I want, as I see fit, according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Think Eli has about a half a seasons worth more passing yards at this point than Ben does....not that that means much. He also has more come from behind 4th quarter victories than most QBs. He also shared time with Warner his rookie year if I remember correctly.
Comments
I went with the Donruss Elite card/999 for Brown....a little bit of WAYYY forshadowing on my part....but in the case of Arian Foster, Elite was used. This is why I chose that one. It only graded a 9 though. :-(
Wanna sell it?
FINISHED 12/8/2008!!!
Fair assessment. My list is also based on what i think the voters will do. I don't predict HOFers by any other measure...
Also Eli will always draw comparisons to Peyton, and that will hurt him not help...I have 5 QBs on my list, any debate that they all go in before Eli? Maybe even 6 as Aaron Rodgers is clearly a better QB and another championship for him along the way would put ELi as the 7th QB from this era...He's going to have a tough road as his eye test doesn't compare well to any of them, and they all have Super Bowl rings...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
All depends when they retire and when Eli retires. But if Brady, Brees, Rodgers, Big Ben and Eli retire the year all of them and his brother go in before him. And JJ Watt too ;-)
I also have Watt(and Megatron) above Eli at this point...So if this is the case, and Eli is the 5th or 6th QB from this era up for votes, just as I suspected, he's in for quite a long wait...If he gets in at all...Will be interesting to see where he finishes and stacks up..If he can accumulate Peyton-esque numbers before he retires, then he will surely move up the list...Or somehow a 3rd Championship that could at least separate him from being compared to Jim Plunkett...lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I like this card as well. A bit challenging to find though. There is a PSA 8.5 for sale on eBay now, but tough in higher grades. Only one 10 so far I believe.
Agreed. Guess my point is maybe it should be the AFL/NFL Hall of Fame and not Pro Football Hall of Fame. Perhaps more impressive than Flutie's stats are the the three Gray Cup championships, 3 Gray Cup MVPs and six League MVPs. He's in the CFL Hall of Fame and is the only non-Canadian in the Canadian Sports Hall of Fame. Fan or not, if you ever get the chance to se the ESPN SportsCentury on him it is worth a watch.
I think the issue with CFL players/stats, is that they are minor leaguers...Putting one in the Pro Football Hall of Fame would be like taking an average MLB player who had a huge minor league career and trying to add their numbers from Double AA or Triple AAA to their MLB numbers...True, they are all professional and get paid, its against inferior competition, so the numbers and Championships don't hold even close to the same weight...
I always thought Flutie was better than average NFL QB, if he would have gotten a shot to play 20 years in the NFL, we might be discussing him as a HOF guy...Put wasnt in the cards for him...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
That 10 only sold for 75ish recently from one of the big guys on ebay
Devin Hester retiring...Will make for a very interesting HOF case in a few years...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree....does he get in on just his kick returns?.....he didnt have much else. Dante Hall
Based on the luck I had with Arian Foster and the only 10 - we all should have bought that Antonio Brown card for $75 - it was a steal!
My luck with grading Fosters was terrible too. Probably 5 of them and only 2 8.5s....rest were 8s. Elite is a tough grade. This years Elliott is at PSA now for me. But I invested more in Prizm. Pretty sure Paninni killed the brand by not serial numbering the base RCs this year. I have also heard the Donruss Optic will be the card to have....but havent researched it at all yet. Not even sure it is out yet.
Im speaking of the Annual Rushing Leaders set for Elliott. We'll see which card they pick for him.
Put him in behind Steve Tasker. I know, I know...homer.
I somewhat follow the CFL and collect RC's of HOFers (pre 1973). Flutie was voted the #1 CFL player all time when they put a top 50 list together. His brother Darren is #50 .....they call them bookends. Nobody cares ? right !!!
While I strongly disagree on his being #1 he did win a ton of awards. If this were the basketball HOF where just about all your past is looked at he is a 1000% lock.
The CFL is a totally different game in so many ways. Flutie at 5'9 certainly made the most of his abilities.
Jason is right about the competition. The CFL is mostly guys who couldn't make NFL starting teams. Don't think for one moment that if Flutie could have been a NFL starter his whole career, with the shortage of QB's that he wouldn't have been there. His 1985 USFL RC is priced like a NFL HOF'er.
Thank you Joe and a few others for the Eli comments. On another note and following the very legal hit by Clowney on Brady. Looks to me like a guy easy tackling a running QB who he doesn't realize has thrown the ball, or too late to stop. Now to the point: in your opinion who is the biggest baby past or present at QB? Gonna be hard to pick someone prior to the rule change. Could be college also. Who is the toughest QB out there? I don't necessarily mean hardest to bring down like big Ben.
1948-76 Topps FB Sets
FB & BB HOF Player sets
1948-1993 NY Yankee Team Sets
I went with Prizm for the Cowboys rookie set. The Prizm rookies have been selling well for this year's rookie class so I believe it will be the product chosen. Optic seems to be popular because of the on card autos and parallel collectors.
Super Bowl XXVIII: Buffalo Bills vs Dallas Cowboys -
Running back Emmitt Smith rushed for 132 yards and 2
touchdowns earning Super Bowl MVP honors as the Cowboys
defeated the Bills 30-13 to win their second consecutive NFL
title.
Phillip Rivers is a whiny b---h on the field....Not only that but he's also a real tool in person...Would be my pick...He's tough and can take a hit but he throws at least 2 temper tantrums per game..
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
What's the consensus on Boldin? Seems largely at the compiling point of a pretty solid career, but a body of work plenty large enough for consideration.
I've got him right there along with Andre Johnson, Steve Smith Sr., Isaac Bruce Hines Ward, and Reggie Wayne. They are going to have to wait for TO and Moss. I think Fitzgerald is a certainty within the first couple years of his eligibility too. All of these guys are all worthy candidates IMO, but will likely take support away from one another and may have to wait many years a la Cris Carter, Andre Reed and Tim Brown.
Never met Rivers, but he does come off as a whiner and jerk. Brady's outbursts are perhaps the best publicized though many are directed at his own team in what I can only imagine is his effort to motivate them. Admittedly, I'm not a great historian of football pre 1970's, but I can't think of anyone at the QB position tougher than Favre. Took huge shots and would get up and pat the opponent on the head. Don't remember him getting after the officials or throwing too many tantrums on the sidelines either.
I always though Peyton Manning was a wimpy - watching him curl up in the fetal position every time a defender got a run on him. I agree on Favre he was tough as nails - and he is missing some intestine from a car wreck prior to NFL.
I have Boldin similar to this(assuming he's done playing)...Along with Johnson, Smith, Holt, Wayne and Calvin Johnson who I would call Tier 3..Tier 2 WRs I have Hines Ward and Bruce, along with Fitzgerald (would take him probably 2-3 more seasons or a Championship to approach Tier 1 level)...Moss and Owens are the only Tier 1 elite guys...Obviously they will go in...The Tier 2 guys I would consider fairly likely to get in at some point....The Tier 3 guys are a tough call..I dont think all of them get in...Maybe 2 or 3 of those 6 way down the road...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
So are you calling TO a lock even though he was not first ballot?
I did think T.O. was a lock prior to being on his first ballot...Felt the same about Marvin Harrison...But once a guy gets passed over, he's no longer 100% lock for induction. Logic would dictate that while that player may have 90% or even 99% odds moving forward, you can no longer consider him a LOCK or a GUARANTEE or 100% as going in after the HOF voters have given you factual information that says they are willing to bypass the player for others...
Now I would say there is an exception to this....If we were to get FIVE first ballot HOFers in one year and a 6th first ballot "lock" got bumped, then I wouldn't consider that getting passed over, that would simply be a numbers game..But that hasn't happened..
Maybe instead of using terms like LOCK and GUARANTEE moving forward I will try and remember to use % odds so there is less confusion on what is meant by the other terms...
That being said, I didnt reference T.O. as a lock in my recent post, just said he's pretty obviously going to go in, which is the case for 95% of the candidates who makes the cut to the final 15 in their first year of eligibility...I believe he will go in this year and Moss next year, but are they 100% going in or locks or guaranteed induction? No..Just 90% likely
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
2018 class is going to be interesting. Among the first time eligibles are: Urlacher, Seymour, Moss, Lewis, Hutchinson. I think all are getting in quickly. In my mind Lewis and Moss are locks, guaranteed, 95%, whatever term you choose. Curious as to who everyone thinks are first ballot guys? What's the most first ballot inductees in a previous class?
Given we are all stating opinions I think we need a set of terms here so we are not going to get confused. When we use the following in posts here let's use the following terms.
1st Ballot = Player who will be elected on his first ballot.
Lock = Player who will 100% get in even if he does not get in on his first ballot.
Guarantee = Same as lock but has three syllables
Tier 1 = Players that have an 85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 2 = Players that have a 50-85% or better chance of getting in
Tier 3 = Players that have less than 25% change of getting in as a modern candidate
Tier Pi = Players that have less than 3.14% of getting in as a modern or senior candidate.
Sure thing = Similar to Lock but used to muddy the waters to garner spirited discussion.
Spirited Discussion = Full blown, drawn out brawl of opinion and candor. LOL must be used at least twice but no more than four times in a post to be considered spirited.
Down Right Arrogant = Using LOL, ALL CAPS, or BOLD more than four times in a post or a combination of seven or more in on calendar day. This usually results in someone copying and pasting their replies to try and one up them.
Copy and Pasters = Users who focus on one word to derail the intended discussion. These users most likely majored in English or Poly Sci in college.
Poly Sci = The most useless college major next to art.
Art = The skill to meander through these forums without pissing someone off.
I hope we can all agree on these terms and use them appropriately in the future.
I agree it seems others like to change the definition of terms to go along with their narrative that they have constructed in which they are seldom or never wrong.
A PSA 8 Frank Gifford Rookie ( Large ) just rung up at $2800+ tonight on Ebay, very surprised this set is still going strong. I know a few heavy hitters got out awhile ago.
HAHAAH....This is a "keeper"
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I have Lewis, Moss and Urlacher 1st ballot...Since 2004, when the HOF committee started the Semifinal process, we've not had more than 3 first ballot guys in any given year. Ray Lewis is really the only 100% guy out of these 3, but Moss and Urlacher are 90% guys IMO and have strong enough cases to go in first ballot, but what happens with T.O this year at WR could throw a monkey wrench on Moss votes...And Urlacher could lose some votes to Ray Lewis...Seymour and Hutchinson are likely HOFers as well, I'd but them in the 60-70% odds range...Seymour will be an interesting debate as as a DE/DT hybrid..Wasnt really a sack guy, but was great all around..Not really many to compare him to...Hutchinson being a Guard will likely slot behind Faneca, assuming Faneca doesn't go in this year.
The good news is 2020 is a pretty weak year, as well as 2022 if no other big hitters retire this offseason...Should assist guys like Seymour and Hutchinson.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Could you please define keeper?
Nah, have to keep my options open for my narrative...LOL and lol
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
LOL, THIS IS HILARIOUS BEST POST EVER 100% LOCK GUARANTEED! LOL
That is funny
Just snagged a Jacoby 9 for 20. Super excited. Cant afford the 10s like the big dogs here. Not many of those on the bay.
I see Eli as deserving to be much higher on that list. He would certainly get my vote.
http://www.unisquare.com/store/brick/
Ralph
I have to agree. Especially since both of his super bowl victories were against Brady and the Pats. Not that that has any bearing, but it should.
Eli needs to be more than just the 8th best QB of his era...The Super Bowl wins are the only reason he's in the conversation...Take away the Super Bowls and he'd slot in somewhere between Boomer Esiason and Drew Bledsoe career wise...
8th best QB with a couple of SB MVPs will certainly get some votes..But enough to make the HOF? Will be after the other 7, with Ben and Aaron still with an opportunity to extend their climb on the HOF list this year, and if Matt Ryan wins the championship and gets a SB MVP, he's right there with Eli already battling for the 8th QB spot of this era...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Top 10 QBs of the past 20 years (my rankings)...
Peyton Manning
Tom Brady
Brett Favre
Drew Brees
Kurt Warner
Ben Rothlisberger
Aaron Rodgers
Eli Manning
Phillip Rivers
Matt Ryan
Brady probably moves to #1 with a Championship this year...Ben jumps ahead of Warner, maybe even Brees with another ring...Aaron probably stays put but would extend the distance above Eli as of now I have them pretty even on HOF odds...Matt Ryan slots in right under Rodgers if he takes home the title...Will be a great Super Bowl this year, guaranteed to see 2 of the top 10 QBs of the past 20 years...
________-Edited to fix the list title______________-
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Favre made it. Shocker.
Hahha..Yeah guess I labelled that wrong..His career overlaps Eli's which is how he ended up on the list...But the point still a valid one.
This line of thinking comes from some of the research I have done in relation to statistical percentages of making the HOF. Variable being number of players from a specific position who played together in any given season. If Eli is the 8th best QB, and doesnt end up the 9th best QB to play, which right now, there are 7 (including Favre) from 2005-2009 ahead of him his odds are much better...
Only time in the post-war era there have been more than 8 HOF QBs playing in a given season was between 1969-1975...So would say if you arent in the top 8 QBs your odds are severely damaged. If Matt Ryan wins this Super Bowl (he played in 2008-2009), and/or gets the MVP and Super Bowl MVP, arguably he will surpass Eli.
Sorry if too confusing for anyone...
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
I agree with you on Eli for the most part as far as where he ranks on your list, but he has 2 Super Bowl MVPs won against Bellichik and Brady, and all the regular season numbers. No way and I mean no way he is left outside of the HOF. My guess is first ballot, but it could be 2nd or 3rd, unless he pulls an OJ or a Darren Sharper before he is eligible he is a lock.
His regular season resume isnt too hot..Again, IMO somewhere between Esiason and Bledsoe..His Super Bowl wins will count alot for him, and will be his biggest selling point once his name gets in the room...But if he is the 8th QB, and even if you want to be very bullish on him his maybe 35th or so on the list of players not in the HOF yet...I just dont see who he's bumping to get in 1st or even 2nd ballot...Maybe 3rd, just based on the math of it..Unless he's going to play for 5-6 more years and no new HOF quality players are going to come out of the 2010-2015 group of players...For me, if he retired today, he's not getting in, but probably makes the top 15 at some point...If he plays 5 more years and pads his resume he could move up the list and be a guy who gets in year 2 or 3...He better hope Matt Ryan doesn't win this Super Bowl, will make Eli's chances way tougher.
Only get 5 in per year max..So just a numbers game...Will be interesting to see how much longer Eli plays and at what level...He could still move up and down that list.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Big Ben contemplating retirement....Thoughts?
LOCK!
What makes him more of a lock than Eli?
Well, according to our definitions both are locks which means they get in but not on the first ballot. Ben gets in sooner as he dominated each game more than Eli. Ben also got better after 30 and his final years if he retired today.
I think Ben stacks up similar to Kurt Warner, a 70% HOF odds guy if he retired today. Not first ballot but a pretty strong case for election.
Eli and Ben will certainly be compared as they were drafted the same year. Ben wipes the floor with Eli in the regular season per game averages...Eli has played essentially another season (201 games to 185 games) and has definitely been very durable. Both have 2 rings, Ben doesnt get much credit for the 1st one, they were a running team and only his 2nd year in the league...BTW, Ben also had to go through and beat Brady to just GET to the SB 3 times...Yes Eli has the SB MVPs, but in both of Ben's championships his WRs got the MVP, arguably should have been him in 2008 (21-30, 256, 1TD)..Had they beaten Rodgers in his 3rd SB he would have certainly gotten MVP (no 100 yard WR or RBs)
In the end its the 70+ more turnovers for Eli that diminishes his career. That and a 108-91 regular season record.
according to my values and my needs. Nothing holds dominion over me, I stand alone as the ruler of my life.
Think Eli has about a half a seasons worth more passing yards at this point than Ben does....not that that means much. He also has more come from behind 4th quarter victories than most QBs. He also shared time with Warner his rookie year if I remember correctly.