Auction Results Should Not Be Released for 60 Days

Coinosaurus · January 10, 2015 2:53PM

So said a dealer I spoke with at the FUN show. They felt that it was harder to flip coins coming out of auctions when everyone knows how much you paid and won't allow you more than 5-10% on a resale. Agree or disagree?

MGLICKER · January 10, 2015 2:58PM

Disagree and I am one of the flippers. Internet transmits data at the speed of light. Dealer should either adapt or find a new vocation.

pennyannie · January 10, 2015 3:12PM

I have never understood the auction flippers, these auctions are open to all participate and a coin that sells for 1000 today after all have seen it becomes 2500 overnight?? In my opinion this buy and flip is one of the reasons collectors get buried in coins.

You got to have a dealers liscense to buy cars at auto auctions and a ffl to buy firearms from wholesalers but coin dealers have to rub elbows with the common riff raff at coin auctions. To me that is retail and then another profit layer on retail.

BustHalfBrian · January 10, 2015 3:12PM

<< So said a dealer I spoke with at the FUN show. They felt that it was harder to flip coins coming out of auctions when everyone knows how much you paid and won't allow you more than 5-10% on a resale. Agree or disagree? >>

That's why you sell on eBay where 95% of bidders won't check a coin's auction appearances.

Moldnut · January 10, 2015 3:14PM

Totally disagree.

MGLICKER · January 10, 2015 3:18PM

<< That's why you sell on eBay where 95% of bidders won't check a coin's auction appearances. >>

On better coins, many more than 5% of Ebay bidders are savvy enough to examine recent sales. High margins on an auction buy and flip are super thin and depend on buying the coins right. Many Ebay buyers like the return privilege, free shipping and Ebay bucks offers, not to mention the ability to use Paypal on larger purchases. These benefits are not offered on many auction venues.

The vise on flippers continues to tighten, but opportunities still exist for those with a keen eye and a sense of current value.

lostincoins · January 10, 2015 3:27PM

People buy used cars knowing the dealer has to make a profit on that car and 90%+ of those cars come from an auction so why should it be different. If the dealer wants to make the record look higher just reauction the coin and buy it at a crazy high price and use that to justify the new selling price. The dealer could sell it for the original price plus fees and a 50% profit and list a discount to say it is on sale and get that fish on the sale hook. lol

bigjpst · January 10, 2015 3:31PM

I think most dealers are beginning to accept the way things are changing. If you stretch at auction you may have a hard sell on your hands. The only problem I see with it is that people seem to think that if you got a deal at auction for whatever reason you shouldn't be able to sell at current value, but based on some preset percentage. it also seems that when people are searching auction results to buy they don't always look at the coins and apples are compared to oranges quite often based on the numbers alone.

BryceM · January 10, 2015 3:44PM

When he starts his own auction company he can do it that way if he wants.

lostincoins · January 10, 2015 3:48PM

<< I think most dealers are beginning to accept the way things are changing. If you stretch at auction you may have a hard sell on your hands. The only problem I see with it is that people seem to think that if you got a deal at auction for whatever reason you shouldn't be able to sell at current value, but based on some preset percentage. it also seems that when people are searching auction results to buy they don't always look at the coins and apples are compared to oranges quite often based on the numbers alone. >>

This is a very good point as a value for a coin should be based on a consistent amount of sales unless very rare then that presides not just on the last sale. The business of selling coins would colapse if every dealer listed every transaction they had until it evened out to a set percentage over a good many years. This would aso eventually end up driving coins to an unattainable price if every sail added 10-20% to the last sale price. The fact that profits and losses happen proves that the market is a viable living thing that changes every day just like a person does, some days we are doing good and some we are not.

Unknown · January 10, 2015 4:14PM

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bigjpst · January 10, 2015 4:15PM

You hear people tell tales of how things were before third party grading and how dealers would call coins au when buying and unc when selling. Now we will be hearing of dealers buying based on the lowest recent auction result and selling based on the highest being the modern day bad guys.

Boosibri · January 10, 2015 4:36PM

If a dealer isn't good enough to have a steady ability to source fresh coins which are top quality then they are going to have a really tough time staying in business

Type2 · January 10, 2015 4:39PM

Let it be. Big deal you want the coin and like the price buy it, if you like the coin and don't like the price don't buy it. I say "NO" let it be it works both way's if it sold for less then the dealer will not know you bought it at XXX for 60 day's and I don't know how this will help at all. It's going to just hert the hobby and piss off customers / Dealers when they go to sell it or buy it and find out it's worth a lot less after 60 day's. This would suck, Coinfacts and other info will not be updated for two months and not good for any one.

illini420 · January 10, 2015 4:43PM

Sometimes stuff sells cheap and way under market, even at the biggest of auctions. If a customer sees what the dealer paid for the coin and now the coin is much higher, so what. The customer doesn't have to buy it, just as the dealer doesn't have to sell for way less than they feel the retail value really is at. But the dealer should be prepared for the question and ready to defend the jump in price from the auction purchase to retail sale.

lasvegasteddy · January 10, 2015 4:48PM

disagree

greed does strange things to the mind...especially an insecure mind like said dealer
insecure and greedy...sounds like a recipe for disaster

makes me think of an opening to a black sabbath song...WAR PIGS

EVIL MINDS THAT PLOT DESTRUCTION

jcping · January 10, 2015 4:55PM

Disagree

Someone will be inside track and get the info. Technology is part of coin trading now. Learn to deal with it.

Type2 · January 10, 2015 5:03PM

I never liked that! When a customer says how much did you pay for it, I don't want to lie so you try to say it in a way that says it's none of your business but you try to be nice about it. But if you say I bought it at $50 for a $250 coin they think you should price it at $70 or $80 it's just the way it is. When I'm buying I just say what do you need on it and go from there. It's a big world out there and a big mix of buyers and sellers.

19Lyds · January 10, 2015 5:15PM

Isn't the expectation that something you purchased is always going to increase in price the very same principle that brought down the Mortgage and Banking businesses?

Not EVERY coin purchased at auction is going to increase in value. If auction flippers don't like the way the game is set up, then perhaps they should get out and start attending real estate auctions?

PerryHall · January 10, 2015 6:29PM

Bad idea but I can see how it would benefit the dealer trying to flip his auction rips. Auction companies need to be trusted and one way to establish trust is through a transparent operation. Withholding auction results would not benefit the auction company in any way and could hurt their reputation. So far I haven't seen anyone here that thinks it's a good idea.

lostincoins · January 10, 2015 6:29PM

<< I never liked that! When a customer says how much did you pay for it, I don't want to lie so you try to say it in a way that says it's none of your business but you try to be nice about it. But if you say I bought it at $50 for a $250 coin they think you should price it at $70 or $80 it's just the way it is. When I'm buying I just say what do you need on it and go from there. It's a big world out there and a big mix of buyers and sellers. >>

You could say that untill the coin actully sells and you figure out all the costs involved that you are not sure of the exact amount the coin cost you to sell it.

messydesk · January 10, 2015 8:14PM

<< So said a dealer I spoke with at the FUN show. They felt that it was harder to flip coins coming out of auctions when everyone knows how much you paid and won't allow you more than 5-10% on a resale. Agree or disagree? >>

Sounds like the dealer in question is going to have to depend on other ways of hiding information from his customers. I wonder if he also wants to have market information withheld from him for 2 months.

astrorat · January 10, 2015 10:00PM

<< So said a dealer I spoke with at the FUN show. They felt that it was harder to flip coins coming out of auctions when everyone knows how much you paid and won't allow you more than 5-10% on a resale. Agree or disagree? >>

Sure ... and all participants and viewers should sign a non-disclosure agreement so that they are also barred from sharing the auction results for a couple of months.

Also ... there should be a 60-day moratorium on disclosing the sale price of coins at a show or purchases made at a coin shop. Better yet ... nobody is allowed to talk for 2 months after they buy or sell a coin!

What utter nonsense!

If Flipper wants more money on resale, he/she should pay less for the coin. Poor Flipper.

Nap · January 10, 2015 11:13PM

Disagree.

It should be easier to find auction results on coins, not more difficult. A transparent market is better for buyers and sellers.

roadrunner · January 10, 2015 11:16PM

<< So said a dealer I spoke with at the FUN show. They felt that it was harder to flip coins coming out of auctions when everyone knows how much you paid and won't allow you more than 5-10% on a resale. Agree or disagree? >>

Sure it's harder. So that means you gotta be smarter and better than most everyone else when buying at auction, or at least better capitalized. I guess this "problem" wasn't so much of a problem before the internet when the only way to know what sold for how much at auction was to actually be there, or wait for the Prices Realized to be mailed out. Back in those old days you could call in a few days after the sale and get them to give you a dozen or so lot prices over the phone. And even back then there was no 5-10% limit on a flip. I recall Dave Akers buying the James Stack 1901-s quarter in March 1975 for $5500. He tried to flip it for nearly $10,000. And it wasn't like every dealer and major collector in the country didn't know what it sold for. It did eventually sell for close to that amount about a year later. But, I think he could have gotten a real nice 20-30% flip on that within 30-60 days of the sale.

In a flat to declining market, I would venture that 50-75% of what sells in a typical auction will be worth less in the following hours/days/weeks/months. But their will plenty of available good flips and rips to those who don't have to depend on the holder. That's what keeps the dealers coming back. It's a lot harder to make auctions "work" for you when the market is flat or in decline. A lot of auction buyers today (including dealers) haven't gone through an extended down period like 1990-1997. It's certainly not fun. Only the sharpest tools in the drawer make it work for them. It became really hard to flip coins at coin shows in 2009-2011 and as a result a lot of dealers folded up their tents...and stopped attending auctions. If you buy an under-priced coin at auction you WILL be able to flip it to someone with knowledge at least equal to yours. And if it happens to be under-priced by say 30-100% then you will be able to flip it for a LOT more than the 5-10% most would want to give you for it. Coin auctions have worked like this for a hundred years before a TPG even existed. They will continue to work this way.

PNG Dealer David Carr was one of the sharpest guys I ever had the pleasure to associate with. He rarely, if ever attended big auctions even though he had the skills. If you brought him something that came out of auction the week before, he'd have no problem paying you whatever your asking price was as long as he saw additional value. The auction price realized is just a single data point, on a single point time. And that's no different than the grade on a slabbed coin...a single grade achieved at one specific point in time under conditions never to be duplicated again.

jhdfla · January 10, 2015 11:53PM

I think transparency in this industry is a great thing, to be able to see exactly what any coin brought immediately after it sold levels the playing field. The auction archives that Heritage maintains do more to educate and protect against scumbags looking to rape a customer since the inception of the TPG's. I've no problem if I'm buying retail paying a reasonable mark up on a coin, so to be clear I'm not taking an anti-dealer stance. Transparency always is resisted by some individuals in almost any given enterprise... stock market, government, whatever, but in the long run it's a good thing for most of us... just not for the prostitutes who rely on obfuscation to make their living.

PerryHall · January 11, 2015 12:02AM

<< I think transparency in this industry is a great thing, to be able to see exactly what any coin brought immediately after it sold levels the playing field. The auction archives that Heritage maintains do more to educate and protect against scumbags looking to rape a customer since the inception of the TPG's. I've no problem if I'm buying retail paying a reasonable mark up on a coin, so to be clear I'm not taking an anti-dealer stance. >>

With so many collectors bidding against the coin dealers these days I would guess that most coins bring close to retail prices so the chance to flip for a big markup is not all that prevalent. Or, am I way off base with my opinion?

MGLICKER · January 11, 2015 12:07AM

<< With so many collectors bidding against the coin dealers these days I would guess that most coins bring close to retail prices so the chance to flip for a big markup is not all that prevalent. Or, am I way off base with my opinion? >>

You are correct. The spread between auction realized pricing and dealer storefront selling price is quite narrow. It takes a unique auction find or an upgrade for a dealer score.

Davideo · January 11, 2015 1:24AM

Pretty much anything that reduces information in the marketplace I would be against.

Cougar1978 · January 11, 2015 1:56AM

Completely disagree.

I am sure a lot of auction flippers simply put the item in their case at a show or on the Bay. The reality of the numismatic marketplace is that the ease of research has expanded big time, so get used to it. Really big ticket coin activity is going to be more highly available especially in the CDN weekly commentary. I don't doubt that the availability of auction data online (Coin Facts, Ebay, other sources) has put a lot of auction flippers out of business. What these people need to do is go back to old fashion basics buying off the bourse floor or from walkup sellers at shows, their shop, etc. A dealer in the coin club even has craigs list ads to solicit sellers of material but I do not recommend this. The dealers going to mods have found a way around this by exploiting slabbing USM products coming out like the HOF, the 70 craze, etc.

Coin Facts and the ebay research tool can reveal what a coin traded at auction for. However, you will see wild swings in prices realized due to factors like rainbow toning, coins that are PQ, etc.

lava · January 11, 2015 2:36AM

Transparency is better than the alternative. A flipper that seeks to maximize profits by hiding information is a red flag not to do business with that person.

Sonorandesertrat · January 11, 2015 7:29AM

Baloney. Cry me a river.

ScarsdaleCoin · January 11, 2015 7:52AM

Knowledge is power

AMRC · January 11, 2015 8:46AM

It is amazing the concepts one comes up, with when one's motives stem from lining ones own pockets.

AMRC · January 11, 2015 8:47AM

<< Transparency is better than the alternative. >>

Unless you discuss someone's coin at auction....

Coin Finder · January 11, 2015 8:52AM

I disagree but only because I need more information than 1 dealers comments..... Sounds like this dealer may have cash flow problems or has a high interest rate on borrowed money.

BAJJERFAN · January 11, 2015 8:56AM

Would anyone be willing to pay a fee to keep hammer prices under wraps?

CaptHenway · January 11, 2015 10:23AM

What utter nonsense.......

BAJJERFAN · January 11, 2015 10:39AM

<< So said a dealer I spoke with at the FUN show. They felt that it was harder to flip coins coming out of auctions when everyone knows how much you paid and won't allow you more than 5-10% on a resale. Agree or disagree? >>

Can he walk it over to the PCGS booth and request a reholder with a different cert number?

lkeigwin · January 11, 2015 2:08PM

<< 

<< So said a dealer I spoke with at the FUN show. They felt that it was harder to flip coins coming out of auctions when everyone knows how much you paid and won't allow you more than 5-10% on a resale. Agree or disagree? >>

Can he walk it over to the PCGS booth and request a reholder with a different cert number? >>

He can ask for a regrade, with a guarantee it won't grade lower, and get a new holder with a new cert#.
Lance.

Elcontador · January 11, 2015 3:18PM

Auction Results Should Not Be Released for 60 Days
To je govno.

astrorat · January 11, 2015 9:41PM

<< Auction Results Should Not Be Released for 60 Days
To je govno. >>

Had to look that one up!

winky · January 11, 2015 10:05PM

I highly disagree. That's just the way it is.

puffer · January 11, 2015 11:02PM

Sounds like a monopolistic, protectionist or pricing fixing type of mentality. Knowledge, fairness and honesty are needed in every business. There is something wrong IMO when someone picks up a coin at auction for $30K then lists it for $47K, high mark-ups leave the customer in a predicament when they go to sell.

BillJones · January 11, 2015 11:07PM

I totally disagree. Auctions are a reflection of the market to a point. Sometimes items are hammered down for more than they are worth and at other times they "slip through the cracks" are sold at bargain prices. Unfortunately it seems that most of the items that interest me in auctions sell for way too much money.

At any rate a dealer should be able to market what he buys at auction for a profit, if he is worth his salt. If I want an item I don't mind paying a dealer a reasonable profit for what he is selling. He deserves to be compensated for his time and expertise to locate items at auction.

TwoSides2aCoin · January 11, 2015 11:12PM

Newspapers, magazines and print media would shut down and ruin the economy, if we had to wait that long for the story.

OKbustchaser · January 11, 2015 11:49PM

<< Sounds like a monopolistic, protectionist or pricing fixing type of mentality. Knowledge, fairness and honesty are needed in every business. There is something wrong IMO when someone picks up a coin at auction for $30K then lists it for $47K, high mark-ups leave the customer in a predicament when they go to sell. >>

No there isn't. He paid for the coin--he is welcome to relist it for any amount he wants. Doesn't mean that it will sell for that, but if it does, so what? The second buyer obviously thought that it was worth the markup. An ability to make a profit is never guaranteed to any seller--collector or dealer--nor, should it be.

This does not mean that I think auction results should be withheld. It merely means that I couldn't care less what someone else paid for a coin that I want. If it's worth the asking price TO ME then I will buy it even if I do know that the seller is doubling his money after a week. If it isn't, then even if I know he is taking a 50% loss then I won't.

astrorat · January 12, 2015 12:09AM

<< Sounds like a monopolistic, protectionist or pricing fixing type of mentality. Knowledge, fairness and honesty are needed in every business. There is something wrong IMO when someone picks up a coin at auction for $30K then lists it for $47K, high mark-ups leave the customer in a predicament when they go to sell. >>

Huh? Since when are buyers forced to pay any particular price for a coin? It's a free market of luxury items. Buying coins is optional.

If someone picks up a coin at auction for $30K and then lists it for $47K, what's not to say that the buyer got a rip and the coin has a market value of $50K and they are offering it at a low price to move it fast. Would you still say that $47K was too much? I've known plenty of dealers who have got great deals at auction while others were sleeping only to resell the coin at a "discount" from the market value to turn over their money.

puffer · January 12, 2015 12:15AM

Dealers can list coins at whatever price they want, and I hope customers come fully armed if interested in those items and in contacting the dealer are not blown off, blocked or treated in a hostile or rude manner if the customer makes a 10% over full auction sale plus % offer.

DeepCoin · January 12, 2015 12:25AM

I believe in efficient markets. What someone paid for a coin has NO relationship to what it is worth in the market. The value is what a knowledgable person will pay for the coin. Dealer to Dealer will get different money than Dealer to Collector. How you price the coin is your business, but the buyer will work from the combination of their perception of value and desire for the coin. It is an art, not a science, yet data is VERY important for the knowledgable. More data is always better.

telephoto1 · January 16, 2015 7:07AM

Personally I don't care if someone knows what I paid for a given item or not; it won't affect my asking price either way. If you're that scared someone might make a buck on you whenever you buy something then perhaps you should pursue a different hobby.

Auction Results Should Not Be Released for 60 Days

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