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Hansen watch.

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  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,106 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin do you have any thoughts on which of the TDN Early Dollars Hansen will be after?

  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    All of them! >:)

    @Boosibri said:
    @Currin do you have any thoughts on which of the TDN Early Dollars Hansen will be after?

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 19, 2020 3:30PM

    @amwldcoin said:
    All of them! >:)

    @Boosibri said:
    @Currin do you have any thoughts on which of the TDN Early Dollars Hansen will be after?

    .
    Consider this as opinion only,

    I would say all but the $10M coin. I don’t think the coin would fit in the collection goals at this time. In this mega-set, Mr. Hansen does not lose his mind over one coin. He may have in the past, but I don’t see that will happen again. This mostly unfortunate for coin owners of high end ultra-rarities.

    As for the others coins, I feel the major concern would the source and venue. I am hoping that I am wrong. I would love to see all of them, especially the POP 1/0 specimens. They would work well with his Morelan Seated Dollar collection. Also, this could really kick start the rebuild of the early coinage. But my observations for the past 12 months does not give me a warm feeling. It would not surprise me if he set this one out. Now, with that said, this auction is still a good ways in the future and changes can happen. In the coming months, fences can be mended and new bridges built. Time will tell. (The upcoming Mo Civil War auction could be positive or negative indicator)

    Note: This is my personal thoughts being asked for by Boosibri. On this matter, I have not discussed with the Hansen team and have no inside knowledge.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • amwldcoinamwldcoin Posts: 11,269 ✭✭✭✭✭

    While I didn't comment or vote in @Boosibri 's poll. I don't think it would bring 10 million unreserved.

    @Currin said:

    @amwldcoin said:
    All of them! >:)

    @Boosibri said:
    @Currin do you have any thoughts on which of the TDN Early Dollars Hansen will be after?

    .
    Consider this as opinion only,

    I would say all but the $10M coin. I don’t think the coin would fit in the collection goals at this time. In this mega-set, Mr. Hansen does not lose his mind over one coin. He may have in the past, but I don’t see that will happen again. This mostly unfortunate for coin owners of high end ultra-rarities.

    As for the others coins, I feel the major concern would the source and venue. I am hoping that I am wrong. I would love to see all of them, especially the POP 1/0 specimens. They would work well with his Morelan Seated Dollar collection. Also, this could really kick start the rebuild of the early coinage. But my observations for the past 12 months does not give me a warm feeling. It would not surprise me if he set this one out. Now, with that said, this auction is still a good ways in the future and changes can happen. In the coming months, fences can be mended and new bridges built. Time will tell. (The upcoming Mo Civil War auction could be positive or negative indicator)

    Note: This is my personal thoughts being asked for by Boosibri. On this matter, I have not discussed with the Hansen team and have no inside knowledge.

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    It seems like Hansen has picked up alot of coins that he passed on the first time around and has picked them up later at a better price.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @amwldcoin said:
    While I didn't comment or vote in @Boosibri 's poll. I don't think it would bring 10 million unreserved.

    .
    .
    It could, but will take two bidders in this type auction. When the coin sold for $10M, there was a increment bid made for about $2-3M. Is that possible in this auction? I don’t understand the auction rules well enough to know. Also, in the last auction the two bidders if I recall was Brett Pogue and Bruce Morelan. We know at least one will not be bidding, and both will not unless Bruce bids up his own coin. Again, I don’t understand the auction rules well enough to know if that is allowed in Legend Auctions. I really don’t have an opinion on my thoughts if the coin will bring $10M? It only takes someone like the Tryrant and one other to push this over the bar. It may or may not be interesting to watch.

    Also, who is the new big player called THE JONNY REED COLLECTION BY EZ COLLECTIBLES. It appear the Pogue-Childs 1804 was recently sold in a private transaction. That coin is thought to be a $10M coin. Is this just another BigCoin? Or is this real and this is the player that brings Morelan set out for auction. The pool for this coin is not very big, but it doesn’t have to be. Only need two players.

    Good Luck, Bruce. I hope you have it timed right and you have a great sell. I sorry to see the set broken and probably will never be matched again.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • RedCopperRedCopper Posts: 173 ✭✭✭

    Currin- You have the correct information regarding the provenance of the 1901 s Barber Dime. It was from the Hugon collection .Earlier from a Heritage auction.
    You also need to give a lot of credit to Laura Sperber who put together the Law Collection and then sold it to Simpson and improved the Simpson Collection before she auctioned it. She also put together the finest collection of proof Barber
    dimes including the 94s .
    I would also like to do a Barber Dime exhibit of the Hansen collection and my set at either FUN
    or an ANA

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @RedCopper said:

    You also need to give a lot of credit to Laura Sperber who put together the Law Collection and then sold it to Simpson and improved the Simpson Collection before she auctioned it. She also put together the finest collection of proof Barber.

    .
    .
    I agree, Sperber needs credit for putting together the Law/Simpson sets, but they are now in the history books. They had a good run for about 10 years, but you was the top dog before them and here after. Staying in ring is the only way to hear the final bell.

    It would be interesting to know how many of the Law/Simpson coins are in your and Hansen sets. Do you know how many of your coins are Hugon, Thomas, Lily Nicole, Simpson, Law, Ductor, Eliasberg, etc.? Some people say pedigree don’t mean anything to them. Are you one of them guys?

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,540 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin

    Do you know if Mr. Hansen has expressed any interest in colonial era coins?

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @MidLifeCrisis said:
    @Currin

    Do you know if Mr. Hansen has expressed any interest in colonial era coins?

    .
    .

    I will answer your question this way. Mr. Hansen focus (or you could say primary interest) is in the US circulation strike set. This is the Hall of Fame set.

    https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/complete-sets/master-sets/u-s-coins-complete-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1792-present/alltimeset/159714

    There are only two coins remaining, they are both half eagles,1798 $5 Small Eagle and 1822. The main activity that I see is upgrading several hundred of these coins annually. The byproduct is the creation of #2, #3 sets and many duplicates. He has a nice start on major varieties and proofs, but I don’t see a lot of recent activity. He has a few patterns, colonial, and even world coins. I think he obtain most of them in purchases of large collections and groups. When branching out into these areas, how do you focus on so many specimens that are hard to obtain.

    I always thought it would be great if PCGS pull a couple expert teams together and create Top 100 coin sets for patterns and colonials. Mr. Hansen does have interest in PCGS sets like this. If this was done, then in my opinion the #1 coin for the colonial set would be the Brasher Doubloon. What would be the other 99? Not sure.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • MidLifeCrisisMidLifeCrisis Posts: 10,540 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin

    Thanks!

  • BestGermanBestGerman Posts: 75 ✭✭✭

    Hi Currin,

    The 1883 Three Cents has appeared at auction, but it did not sell:
    Stack's/Bowers 8/2019:5127 (as PCGS MS67+ 35750015), not sold - D.L. Hansen Collection (as PCGS MS67+ 35750015)

    Ron Guth, Chief Investigator
    The Numismatic Detective Agency

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @BestGerman said:
    Hi Currin,

    The 1883 Three Cents has appeared at auction, but it did not sell:
    Stack's/Bowers 8/2019:5127 (as PCGS MS67+ 35750015), not sold - D.L. Hansen Collection (as PCGS MS67+ 35750015)

    .
    .
    Thanks Ron, great detective work.

    A couple of take-a-ways from this new information. It is interesting the coin passed with a reserve of $35,000. Is the demanded higher now than 12 months ago? Has Mr. Hansen changed his focus?

    I doubt he was focusing on this coin in the SBG Sale August 2019. If your recall, the night this coin was passed, Mr. Hansen successfully made the winning bid for the 1894-S Dime, realizing $1,320,000. He also purchased the 1964 SMS Kennedy Half Dollar for $156,000. I can see how he was not focused on the 1883 Three Cent Copper Nickel. If that was not enough, then the Anthony Tarkaszka Collection was the previous night.

    The Stacks Bowers Auction describes the coin as: Offered is a truly remarkable Superb Gem Mint State example of a circulation strike three-cent nickel that is highly elusive even in worn condition. Otherwise satiny in texture, the surfaces do reveal extremely subtle semi-reflective tendencies in the fields. Lightly toned in iridescent gold and rose with a razor sharp strike. The pedigree is still a mystery. The only provenance in the sale description that was given: The PCGS CoinFacts Plate Coin. What the heck does that mean in significance?

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,506 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 29, 2020 6:52PM

    .

    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Three Cent Copper Nickel Proof Upgrade

    This is another example of a tale of two cities. Over the weekend, I discussed Three Cent Copper Nickels Circulating Strike set. I described in detail how it is an impossible set for Mr. Hansen to be able advance to the top spot. For the proof set, the story is completely different. The Three Cent Nickels Basic, Proof (1865-1889) set requires 25 coins. PCGS describes the set as: Proof three cent nickels seem to enjoy a greater popularity than their mint state counterparts. This series is slightly longer than the business strike one, and, despite significantly lower mintages, there are far more high-quality proofs on the market than business strikes. The earliest dates of the series are the rarest, with the 1865 being significantly more expensive than the other issues.

    Currently, the two top collections (Hansen & tompet38) have created a separation from the remainder in the pact. There are 15 current collectors participating in the registry. Six of them are 100% completed. The tompet38 Collection of Three Cent Copper Nickel Proof set was created 6/1/2015. If I may add, just in time to get the 2014 top set award. Before a few days ago, the tompet38 set has been in first place continuously since 2014. On 6/15, the Hansen Collection moved into first place with this upgrade. Can the Hansen Collection remain in first place to the deadline? Time will tell.

    1882 Three Cent Copper Nickel PR68+

    This is the finest Three Cent Copper Nickel Proof graded by PCGS, PR68+CAM. In other words, this is a #1 type coin. There two other PR68+ non-CAM specimens and the highest DCAM Three Cent Copper Nickel specimens are six PR67+DAM. As for 1882 Specimens, there is one other specimen graded PR68+ Non-CAM. There are seven 1882 PCGS graded PR68CAM specimens. The latest public auction appearance for PR68CAM coin was in a Heritage sale in April 2020. That coin realized $3,600 with a PCGS value of $7,200.

    The Hansen PR68+CAM coin has not appeared in auction according to PCGS auction report. I tried to see if I could match an image with previous auctions without any success. High grade proofs appear more difficult to compare images than mint state coins. The story to tell is this is the finest PCGS grade proof Three Cent Copper Nickel. Also, the purchase of this coin placed the D.L Hansen Collection Three Cent Copper Nickel Proofs first placed in the registry.

    This coin was marketed by Northern Nevada Coins. A brief basic description was given for the coin: 1882 Three Cent Nickel PCGS PR-68+ CAM designed by James Barton Longacre. On the NNC website, the coin was offered for $16,125. This seems reasonable if the PR68CAM is valued at $7,200. If the coin is only valued as last auction, $3,600, then I would question this ask price. It would be interesting to know what the coin actually sold for, but I doubt we will ever know.

    1882 Three cent Copper Nickel, PR68+CAM
    PCGS POP 1/0, Gold Shield
    Certification #38676801, PCGS #83778
    PCGS Value Guide: Unknown / Ask $16,125
    Provenance: Unknown

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • BestGermanBestGerman Posts: 75 ✭✭✭

    Hi Currin,

    The provenance on the PCGS PR68+CAM 1882 3CN is:
    Legend Rare Coin Auctions 3/2020:190 (as PCGS PR68+CAM 38676801), not sold - D.L. Hansen Collection (as PCGS PR68+CAM 38676801)

    Ron Guth, Chief Investigator
    The Numismatic Detective Agency

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @keyman64 said:
    .

    I am trying to determine the meaning of this. In my internet lookup, these are some possibilities. I am still not sure of the meaning in this particular posting. If I have to go with one, I would choose 5.

    1
    It's entirely a matter of opinion and context. I often send just a single space as a quirky alternative to a question mark (if I'm waiting for someone to text me, and I just want to "nudge" them into getting on with it).

    2
    In some contexts sending a single period (or something of that ilk) is used to "keep the line open" and indicate that the person is still there on the other end (perhaps awaiting something from your end).

    3
    On MetaFilter a dot indicates a moment of silence: faq.metafilter.com/#4 This usage has since leaked into other areas, especially the corners of the blogosphere and Twitter that intersect with MeFi's user base. I don't think it (or opportunities for its use) are common enough to be the true answer to the question, though.

    4
    Among my North American 20-something years old peers, a single dot is usually used to indicate "I read your message, but have nothing to say in reply".

    5
    Fwiw, I'm a native English speaker, and I would have no clue what this meant. I'd probably assume it was a mistake, and would ask if the person meant to type something but didn't.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A post with just a period ( . ) may mean that a person wrote something more extensive,
    but then changed their mind and wanted to delete it.
    However, the forum software complains if you try to edit a post to make it "empty".
    So leaving a period there will remove almost all of it.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Half Eagle Update 5

    I am not a visitor to the major shows. I am closing fast into retirement, and attending these shows may be an enjoyable retirement activity. Working at the shows would be like icing on a cake. I mention this to say, at some point I would love to see Mr. Hansen showcase selections from his great collection at these major shows. I think an enjoyable number for display (and not over whelm) is somewhere between 200 – 300 coins. This 201 piece basic set of Liberty Half Eagles would make a great display. I think the major varieties could be fantastic addition to make the display 220 coins. I would travel to my first major show to see this set on display with the 1854-S.

    It appears the Liberty Half Eagle upgrades just keep coming without checking up. This coin makes the 25th upgrade since January. It is another PCGS Pop 1/0 specimen for a coin that could be called a common date for the mint. Also, this coin has been floating around on the web and offered in a couple auctions over the past few months. Are we seeing these coins showing up in the Hansen Collection because current conditions are favorable for Hansen buying into this set? I know I had discussed and talked about Liberty Half Eagles to a point that you may be sick of hearing about them. I go where that collection takes me, and Liberty Half Eagles have been where a lot of action is. So we will go there again today. If treads continue, maybe again next week!

    As we have seen with several of the recent Liberty Half Eagle upgrades, the coin being replaced is not a looser. In this case, the specimen being kicked down to the second string is an 1886-S MS65 Certification #84018519, POP 26/1. There are 26 specimens certified MS65, and none are certified as MS65+. The new Hansen specimen is a full point better that the pack of second best coins. Only expect comment given on this coin is from David Akers. The 1886-S is a very common date in any condition including choice uncirculated.

    1886-S Half Eagle PCGS MS66

    The 26 coins in MS65 grouping are PCGS valued at $2500. The most recent sale was a non-CAC in Legend’s Regency Auction 32, May 2019. The auctioneer estimated the coin to bring $2,000 - $2,400. In the 2019 description, the coin listed in the PCGS Price Guide at $3,850. The coin realized only $1410. As you can see, the value of this coin has taken a big hit in the past year. The value for the MS66 takes a big jump to $13,500 according to PCGS Price Guide (I am not sure how this price was determined, a MS66 specimen never actually sold for this amount).

    The coin has sold twice in recent Heritage Auctions. I would assume in first sale the coin was purchased by an investor or dealer, and not a collector. The first auction, December 2019, the coin realized $10,800. The second auction, June 7th, 2020, the coin sold for less than $10K, realizing $9,900. The coin was described in auction as “Sole-Finest at PCGS”. There is one competitor for the top spot being a coin described as “Spectacular NGC MS66 with Star” that appeared in a 2008 Heritage Auction. The Hansen PCGS MS66 holds the auction record of $10,800 from December 2019 sale. The auctioneer described the coin as: With a large mintage of more than 3.2 million pieces, the 1886-S is readily available in most grades including the lower Mint State ranks. Gem or finer examples are rare, seen less often than surrounding San Francisco dates despite their lower mintages. Premium Gem examples are virtually unknown, with just one example at PCGS and another sole example at NGC. None are finer at either service. This is the solitary PCGS coin certified MS66. Richly frosted, straw-gold surfaces display attractive rose-gold undertones, while cartwheel mint luster radiates from each side. A sharp strike exists throughout. A few light marks flank the eagle, yet the obverse is virtually unmarked and eye appeal is spectacular.”

    Between these sales, the coin was offered on Park Avenue Numismatics website. This was early May, prior to the most recent Heritage Sale. The ask price on the coin was $13,570. It appears that Mr. Hansen patiently waited on the coin to go back to auction. I do not know for a fact, but it would not surprise me if Mr. Hansen was the under bidder in the first Heritage Sale. I know for a fact, he is the under bidder on a lot of coins. It appears he may have won the coin in the second auction for around the amount he was willing to pay in the first auction. Whoever it was that out bided him and tried to flip the coin for a profit lost on this one. Note, I am not implying that was Park Avenue Numismatics, I am just saying they were marketing the coin and that could have been for someone else.

    Final thoughts. I could not determine the provenance or pedigree for this POP 1/0 Coin. According to my account, there are at least 44 more POP 1/0 Liberty Half Eagles somewhere out there. Some of them could be in your hands as you read this posting. I am confident this will not be the last top pop upgrade in this set. How many more are there that Mr. Hansen has tried to buy or made offers, but the price was a little off? In this case, the auction record price at $10,800 was too much, but Mr. Hansen later acquired the coin for $9,900. Nine hundred dollars was a make or break point on this $10,000 coin. Interesting to set back and watch. I hope you enjoy it as I do.

    1888-S Liberty Half Eagle PCGSS MS66
    PCGS POP 1/0, Gold Shield
    Certification #38143411, PCGS #8370
    PCGS Value Guide: $13,500 / Realized $9,900
    Provenance: Unknown

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • skier07skier07 Posts: 3,965 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So Hansen pays $2M for the 54-S $5 and he held out on a pop 1 86-S $5 for $800. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me unless I’m missing something.

  • yosclimberyosclimber Posts: 4,785 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 2, 2020 10:42PM

    @skier07 said:
    So Hansen pays $2M for the 54-S $5 and he held out on a pop 1 86-S $5 for $800. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me unless I’m missing something.

    Since there are hundreds of potential upgrades, the principle is to buy them if the price is "reasonable".
    It is a somewhat fuzzy concept, but he has time and patience, so it seems to work pretty well.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin said:

    @yosclimber said:

    @skier07 said:
    So Hansen pays $2M for the 54-S $5 and he held out on a pop 1 86-S $5 for $800. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me unless I’m missing something.

    Since there are hundreds of potential upgrades, the principle is to buy them if the price is "reasonable".
    It is a somewhat fuzzy concept, but he has time and patience, so it seems to work pretty well.

    .
    .
    Well, this is not easy to answer in 25 words or less. Although @yosclimber did a pretty good job with about 35 words. In the past 12 months, I do not think the Hansen philosophy to his purchasing has change, but the application has evolved considerably. His philosophy has been provided by John Brush on several occasions, I will provide again as a review. It goes something like this:

    If a coin becomes available that will improve the set (he means the HOF set), and is being offered at a fair price, then we are interested in buying.

    When referring to the upgrades, I have recently heard JB used the term that an upgrade is insignificant to the collection. What this means, no one coin (like the pop 1 86-S $5) has any real significance, alone. This is especially true if the coin being replaced is tied for second finest known. I don’t think JB and Mr. Hansen are having daily discussions on should they spend an additional $800 to buy any particular upgrade. With John Brush’s experience, he knows the market value and when the bidding exceeds that predetermine fair market value, the bidding ends for the Hansen team. Another way to put it, this bid is just a buying process as any experience dealer would handle a similar situation. This has not always been the case on some early bidding.

    June 27th 2019

    This is a monumental date for the Hansen Collection. History tells us that June 7th, 1944 was the day that changed the course of World War II. I believe from what I am seeing and have seen the past year, June 27th 2019 was the day that changed the course of the Hansen Collection. Prior to this day, Mr. Hansen would determine certain coins that he desired in his collection and would get into bidding wars to obtain them. Have you witness any bidding wars the past 12 months? I have not.

    Prior to June 27th 2019, I believe there were some actors that were bidding up desirable coins. I don’t think that is happening as much today, because there is now a fear that Mr. Hansen may leave other bidder holding the coin. I know of one case that an ultra-rarity was bided up to a high premium, and Hansen dropped out. The coin was offered to him several times but he would not buy. The coin sold in a recent auction and the collector loss was significant. Mr. Hansen could have bought the coin around $100K cheaper in the fire sale auction. He decided he did not want the coin.

    As I stated, this new application of Hansen’ philosophy has really change the course of this collection. There are upcoming auctions with probably 20-25 coins that are perfect coins to improve the Hansen Collection. I am not expecting Mr. Hansen to get into any bidding wars over these coins. If he is high bidder for any of them at a predetermine fair market price, we may see him buying a few. The days of overpaying for a coin that only upgrade a collection that is already pretty darn good, I think is over. This is very unfortunate turn of events for the sellers and the auction houses involved.

    You have to wonder whether all of them were real bidders or shills.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,907 ✭✭✭✭✭

    “The coin sold in a recent auction and the collector loss was significant.”

    I have no idea what coin or auction you are even referring to, but, it might be a stretch to call it a “collector” loss. “Collectors” are typically not buying ultra rarities for their collection and then selling them off months later to begin with - let alone at a six figure loss in a fire sale. Highly unusual, although not impossible. I do know of some “investor/dealers” who might speculate on buying a coin Mr. Hansen needs in the hope he might pay more later, but, again, the idea is not to sell it off in a “fire sale” months later.

    Just my two cents.

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @wondercoin said:

    I do know of some “investor/dealers” who might speculate on buying a coin Mr. Hansen needs in the hope he might pay more later......

    This sounds pretty risky in my opinion. It is a little bit like investing in oil futures. Then, that’s just me. I would never draw to an inside straight. If I recall the odds, it is about 11 to 1.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Currin said:

    @yosclimber said:

    @skier07 said:
    So Hansen pays $2M for the 54-S $5 and he held out on a pop 1 86-S $5 for $800. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me unless I’m missing something.

    Since there are hundreds of potential upgrades, the principle is to buy them if the price is "reasonable".
    It is a somewhat fuzzy concept, but he has time and patience, so it seems to work pretty well.

    .
    .
    Well, this is not easy to answer in 25 words or less. Although @yosclimber did a pretty good job with about 35 words. In the past 12 months, I do not think the Hansen philosophy to his purchasing has change, but the application has evolved considerably. His philosophy has been provided by John Brush on several occasions, I will provide again as a review. It goes something like this:

    If a coin becomes available that will improve the set (he means the HOF set), and is being offered at a fair price, then we are interested in buying.

    When referring to the upgrades, I have recently heard JB used the term that an upgrade is insignificant to the collection. What this means, no one coin (like the pop 1 86-S $5) has any real significance, alone. This is especially true if the coin being replaced is tied for second finest known. I don’t think JB and Mr. Hansen are having daily discussions on should they spend an additional $800 to buy any particular upgrade. With John Brush’s experience, he knows the market value and when the bidding exceeds that predetermine fair market value, the bidding ends for the Hansen team. Another way to put it, this bid is just a buying process as any experience dealer would handle a similar situation. This has not always been the case on some early bidding.

    June 27th 2019

    This is a monumental date for the Hansen Collection. History tells us that June 7th, 1944 was the day that changed the course of World War II. I believe from what I am seeing and have seen the past year, June 27th 2019 was the day that changed the course of the Hansen Collection. Prior to this day, Mr. Hansen would determine certain coins that he desired in his collection and would get into bidding wars to obtain them. Have you witness any bidding wars the past 12 months? I have not.

    Prior to June 27th 2019, I believe there were some actors that were bidding up desirable coins. I don’t think that is happening as much today, because there is now a fear that Mr. Hansen may leave other bidder holding the coin. I know of one case that an ultra-rarity was bided up to a high premium, and Hansen dropped out. The coin was offered to him several times but he would not buy. The coin sold in a recent auction and the collector loss was significant. Mr. Hansen could have bought the coin around $100K cheaper in the fire sale auction. He decided he did not want the coin.

    As I stated, this new application of Hansen’ philosophy has really change the course of this collection. There are upcoming auctions with probably 20-25 coins that are perfect coins to improve the Hansen Collection. I am not expecting Mr. Hansen to get into any bidding wars over these coins. If he is high bidder for any of them at a predetermine fair market price, we may see him buying a few. The days of overpaying for a coin that only upgrade a collection that is already pretty darn good, I think is over. This is very unfortunate turn of events for the sellers and the auction houses involved.

    I think what Hansen is doing is fairly unique so general rules may not make sense for his purchases. Since by definition he needed/needs every coin in the best condition possible, paying whatever it takes in each instance would be counterproductive. I think when people are critical when he passes on coins they believe are "must have" ----they make his point---he is saying nothing is a "must have". Passing on coins routinely may lose the battle but in the end win the war by making coins available at fair market value.

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,167 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2020 7:14AM

    @Gazes said:

    @Currin said:

    @yosclimber said:

    @skier07 said:
    So Hansen pays $2M for the 54-S $5 and he held out on a pop 1 86-S $5 for $800. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me unless I’m missing something.

    Since there are hundreds of potential upgrades, the principle is to buy them if the price is "reasonable".
    It is a somewhat fuzzy concept, but he has time and patience, so it seems to work pretty well.

    .
    .
    Well, this is not easy to answer in 25 words or less. Although @yosclimber did a pretty good job with about 35 words. In the past 12 months, I do not think the Hansen philosophy to his purchasing has change, but the application has evolved considerably. His philosophy has been provided by John Brush on several occasions, I will provide again as a review. It goes something like this:

    If a coin becomes available that will improve the set (he means the HOF set), and is being offered at a fair price, then we are interested in buying.

    When referring to the upgrades, I have recently heard JB used the term that an upgrade is insignificant to the collection. What this means, no one coin (like the pop 1 86-S $5) has any real significance, alone. This is especially true if the coin being replaced is tied for second finest known. I don’t think JB and Mr. Hansen are having daily discussions on should they spend an additional $800 to buy any particular upgrade. With John Brush’s experience, he knows the market value and when the bidding exceeds that predetermine fair market value, the bidding ends for the Hansen team. Another way to put it, this bid is just a buying process as any experience dealer would handle a similar situation. This has not always been the case on some early bidding.

    June 27th 2019

    This is a monumental date for the Hansen Collection. History tells us that June 7th, 1944 was the day that changed the course of World War II. I believe from what I am seeing and have seen the past year, June 27th 2019 was the day that changed the course of the Hansen Collection. Prior to this day, Mr. Hansen would determine certain coins that he desired in his collection and would get into bidding wars to obtain them. Have you witness any bidding wars the past 12 months? I have not.

    Prior to June 27th 2019, I believe there were some actors that were bidding up desirable coins. I don’t think that is happening as much today, because there is now a fear that Mr. Hansen may leave other bidder holding the coin. I know of one case that an ultra-rarity was bided up to a high premium, and Hansen dropped out. The coin was offered to him several times but he would not buy. The coin sold in a recent auction and the collector loss was significant. Mr. Hansen could have bought the coin around $100K cheaper in the fire sale auction. He decided he did not want the coin.

    As I stated, this new application of Hansen’ philosophy has really change the course of this collection. There are upcoming auctions with probably 20-25 coins that are perfect coins to improve the Hansen Collection. I am not expecting Mr. Hansen to get into any bidding wars over these coins. If he is high bidder for any of them at a predetermine fair market price, we may see him buying a few. The days of overpaying for a coin that only upgrade a collection that is already pretty darn good, I think is over. This is very unfortunate turn of events for the sellers and the auction houses involved.

    I think what Hansen is doing is fairly unique so general rules may not make sense for his purchases. Since by definition he needed/needs every coin in the best condition possible, paying whatever it takes in each instance would be counterproductive. I think when people are critical when he passes on coins they believe are "must have" ----they make his point---he is saying nothing is a "must have". Passing on coins routinely may lose the battle but in the end win the war by making coins available at fair market value.

    If he was in his 30s or 40s I would agree. He is much older. The coins might not come up for sale again in his life time. He was really lucky with the Pogue 1854-s $5. With that said, I can understand avoiding coin sharks on principle even if it means having an incomplete set.

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 5, 2020 8:23AM

    @cameonut2011 said:

    @Gazes said:

    @Currin said:

    @yosclimber said:

    @skier07 said:
    So Hansen pays $2M for the 54-S $5 and he held out on a pop 1 86-S $5 for $800. This doesn’t make a lot of sense to me unless I’m missing something.

    Since there are hundreds of potential upgrades, the principle is to buy them if the price is "reasonable".
    It is a somewhat fuzzy concept, but he has time and patience, so it seems to work pretty well.

    .
    .
    Well, this is not easy to answer in 25 words or less. Although @yosclimber did a pretty good job with about 35 words. In the past 12 months, I do not think the Hansen philosophy to his purchasing has change, but the application has evolved considerably. His philosophy has been provided by John Brush on several occasions, I will provide again as a review. It goes something like this:

    If a coin becomes available that will improve the set (he means the HOF set), and is being offered at a fair price, then we are interested in buying.

    When referring to the upgrades, I have recently heard JB used the term that an upgrade is insignificant to the collection. What this means, no one coin (like the pop 1 86-S $5) has any real significance, alone. This is especially true if the coin being replaced is tied for second finest known. I don’t think JB and Mr. Hansen are having daily discussions on should they spend an additional $800 to buy any particular upgrade. With John Brush’s experience, he knows the market value and when the bidding exceeds that predetermine fair market value, the bidding ends for the Hansen team. Another way to put it, this bid is just a buying process as any experience dealer would handle a similar situation. This has not always been the case on some early bidding.

    June 27th 2019

    This is a monumental date for the Hansen Collection. History tells us that June 7th, 1944 was the day that changed the course of World War II. I believe from what I am seeing and have seen the past year, June 27th 2019 was the day that changed the course of the Hansen Collection. Prior to this day, Mr. Hansen would determine certain coins that he desired in his collection and would get into bidding wars to obtain them. Have you witness any bidding wars the past 12 months? I have not.

    Prior to June 27th 2019, I believe there were some actors that were bidding up desirable coins. I don’t think that is happening as much today, because there is now a fear that Mr. Hansen may leave other bidder holding the coin. I know of one case that an ultra-rarity was bided up to a high premium, and Hansen dropped out. The coin was offered to him several times but he would not buy. The coin sold in a recent auction and the collector loss was significant. Mr. Hansen could have bought the coin around $100K cheaper in the fire sale auction. He decided he did not want the coin.

    As I stated, this new application of Hansen’ philosophy has really change the course of this collection. There are upcoming auctions with probably 20-25 coins that are perfect coins to improve the Hansen Collection. I am not expecting Mr. Hansen to get into any bidding wars over these coins. If he is high bidder for any of them at a predetermine fair market price, we may see him buying a few. The days of overpaying for a coin that only upgrade a collection that is already pretty darn good, I think is over. This is very unfortunate turn of events for the sellers and the auction houses involved.

    I think what Hansen is doing is fairly unique so general rules may not make sense for his purchases. Since by definition he needed/needs every coin in the best condition possible, paying whatever it takes in each instance would be counterproductive. I think when people are critical when he passes on coins they believe are "must have" ----they make his point---he is saying nothing is a "must have". Passing on coins routinely may lose the battle but in the end win the war by making coins available at fair market value.

    If he was in his 30s or 40s I would agree. He is much older. The coins might not come up for sale again in his life time. He was really lucky with the Pogue 1854-s $5. With that said, I can understand avoiding coin sharks on principle even if it means having an incomplete set.

    I understand why you use the term an "incomplete set" but i find it hard to use any fashion with the Hansen collection (im probably reading more into it then you intended). First, im assuming he will have one or two coins that he will simply not acquire. Rather than describe it as an incomplete set i look at his collection as an amazing collection. Further, his collection is chalk full of complete sets of various series. If he does miss out on a coin or two using his strategy (and the jury is out on this), i dont think anyone will view it as an incomplete set.

  • CurrinCurrin Posts: 1,520 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Gazes said:>
    I understand why you use the term an "incomplete set" but i find it hard to use any fashion with the Hansen collection (im probably reading more into it then you intended). First, im assuming he will have one or two coins that he will simply not acquire. Rather than describe it as an incomplete set i look at his collection as an amazing collection. Further, his collection is chalk full of complete sets of various series. If he does miss out on a coin or two using his strategy (and the jury is out on this), i dont think anyone will view it as an incomplete set.

    .
    .
    There are only two coins that I believe Mr. Hansen feels they are very important for him in “completing” his goal. I not going to say which two they are, but if you have been watching the thread you should know. There are some coins that he has no desire to purchase and he feels they are not significant or does not fit his goals. So, I am not sure he would agree to calling this “missing out” if the coin is not what he is personally seeking, i.e., the 1913 Nickel, and the two 1880 Stella’s. He has no need spend 6-8 Million Dollars on coins without a desire to add to his collection. Many of us may disagree, but it is his collection and his money. If he doesn’t desire something, so be it. You can call it missing out or something else.

    My 20th Century Type Set, With Type Variations---started : 9/22/1997 ---- completed : 1/7/2004

    My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 12,106 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Wonderful narrative of events.

    What is baffling to me about the story is why bid and buy a bunch of upgrades while cutting your max bid By $1.5M for the one coin you actually NEED?

  • GazesGazes Posts: 2,315 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Truely amazing article! One thing i hope it does is dispel the notion that Hansen is a billionaire who simply throws money at coins with little thought. It shows how he wasnt comfortable with the other 1854-S; the weekly discussions with John Brush about the value, the other bidders, etc; and the decision making of buying this 7 figure rarity during a pandemic and what appeared to be an economic meltdown. Wonderful article!

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I especially enjoyed John Brush's recollection of a great auction victory at a time when most collectors were hiding under their beds. And I am very happy for DLH for his acquisition of a very rare coin that is not often seen in the market. But with a mintage of 268 coins he will have to wait for the shoe to drop with the discovery of a hoard, or another shipwreck, that will over populate the market. I do not recall any reasons that the Mint might have been melting gold coins in 1854-1855.

    But congratulations are in order for DLH and JB for a great acquisition.

    OINK

  • goldengolden Posts: 9,589 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What a super story!

  • JBatDavidLawrenceJBatDavidLawrence Posts: 504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @OldIndianNutKase said:
    I especially enjoyed John Brush's recollection of a great auction victory at a time when most collectors were hiding under their beds. And I am very happy for DLH for his acquisition of a very rare coin that is not often seen in the market. But with a mintage of 268 coins he will have to wait for the shoe to drop with the discovery of a hoard, or another shipwreck, that will over populate the market. I do not recall any reasons that the Mint might have been melting gold coins in 1854-1855.

    But congratulations are in order for DLH and JB for a great acquisition.

    OINK

    Thank you!
    There's always that risk with any great rarity I believe...even an 84 or 85 Proof Trade Dollar (though if I found a bag of either, I'd think it is suspect). But, I think after 166 years, we feel pretty comfortable that another roll (or bag) won't pop up... :)

    John Brush
    President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
    email: John@davidlawrence.com
    2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭

    After reading the article, I think In-N-Out Burger should hire Brush to do a commercial. "Hi, when I had just won a world class coin rarity at a fire sale price of under $2M, where did I go to dinner to celebrate? In-N-Out Burger!" No need to mention that most of the A-list restaurants in LA were closed down at the time. ;)

    Joking aside, I really enjoyed the article. It's definitely a rush to win a coin you desperately want for far less than anticipated.

  • JBatDavidLawrenceJBatDavidLawrence Posts: 504 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @CoinJunkie said:
    After reading the article, I think In-N-Out Burger should hire Brush to do a commercial. "Hi, when I had just won a world class coin rarity at a fire sale price of under $2M, where did I go to dinner to celebrate? In-N-Out Burger!" No need to mention that most of the A-list restaurants in LA were closed down at the time. ;)

    Joking aside, I really enjoyed the article. It's definitely a rush to win a coin you desperately want for far less than anticipated.

    I'd settle for them just opening one in Virginia Beach...of course, then I'd have to fight a lot of inner turmoil on a daily basis in choosing between Chick-Fil-A and In-N-Out...

    John Brush
    President of David Lawrence Rare Coins www.davidlawrence.com
    email: John@davidlawrence.com
    2022 ANA Dealer of the Year, Past Chair of NCBA (formerly ICTA), PNG Treasurer, Instructor at Witter Coin University, former Instructor/YN Chaperone ANA Summer Seminar, Coin World Most Influential, Curator of the D.L. Hansen Collection

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