@specialist said:
I still say Delloy needs to do Patterns.
I still don't think many people agree. Patterns are too esoteric and they are not what captures the imagination with the > > >Eliasberg set. I think the 1913 Liberty nickel would be more important than patterns.
Agree about the saint set also.
The 1933 beats the Judd 1776 pattern because who even knows what that is.
(Eliasberg & Hansen both had/have the EX-HR 1907 pattern)
@specialist said:
Simpson has nearly 2000 patterns!!!!!!! Not all are posted. Ok, so he needs 1,000 more to complete-and he has the only gold pattern set possible.
I know he had something like 2000 pieces, but hasn't he since sold off some of the less interesting parts of the collection?
As for DLH "needing" to collect patterns to compete with Eliasberg, he obviously gets to decide that for himself. But I will say that watching the way he has built his collection, he probably won't get too serious about patterns until he has a chance to buy a large collection of them. I think he understands that speed-building a major collection of patterns one coin at a time is a great way to run the market up on yourself.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@specialist said:
Simpson has nearly 2000 patterns!!!!!!! Not all are posted. Ok, so he needs 1,000 more to complete-and he has the only gold pattern set possible.
It sounds like it may be possible to claim your client has exceeded Eliasberg for patterns. After all, nearly 2000 is much more than about 210. Does this help?
SCARSDALE COIN - The Extraordinary So Called Dollar Collection
SET DESCRIPTION
From Scarsdale Coin (coinhelp.com) comes the collection of So-Called Dollars (SCD) as listed in the major reference book So-Called Dollars by Harold E. Hibler and Charles V. Kappen.
SET GOALS Eliasberg accomplished a virtually impossible feat by collecting one of everything... Here at Scarsdale Coin we attempt one better....not only to collect one of everything but where possible to obtain the Finest Known!
FYI, Scarsdale Coin has been for many years a behind the scene market maker of SCD and now for the first time will publish its in house collection that we have acquired over the past twenty plus years!
Think about it---at first when Hansen's goal went public the discussion was whether he could actually find and acquire all the coins. Then after his collection grew it turned to the quality of his coins. Now that he has many top pops the discussion has turned to.....patterns! I think this says more about the success of Hansen's collection than anything else.
If I owned a coin that Mr. Hansen needed to assist in his set completion, and a price was agreed upon, I would welcome his purchase. Just to be a part of this modern collecting quest which I have followed. Just think, the piece in question could be labeled "Previously owned by BLUEJAYWAY" while it resides in it's new home.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
@amwldcoin said:
I hope I'm not out of line. But parts of this thread seems to be turning into a Legend vrs. Hanson battle.
Ur about 12 pages too late with this comment. The jibber jabber has been going on too long. Maybe that's why DLH never comes back to post in his own thread.
I agree. It is annoying. Who cares who has the "best" set or is the "greatest" collector? This is about one specific set. The remaining comments are off topic fluff and should be removed by the moderators. The animus and envy in this thread is baffling.
@specialist said:
Simpson has nearly 2000 patterns!!!!!!! Not all are posted. Ok, so he needs 1,000 more to complete-and he has the only gold pattern set possible.
Maybe Hansen doesn't care for patterns or has no interest in a complete set of patterns even if he has acquired a few pieces of interest. My understanding is that he is attempting to build a complete U.S. regular issue business strike set.
@specialist said:
Currin, Please your comments are off base period.
Bruce was being polite. I am not because I AM the one who mostly built the sets. I am protecting MY legacy too. I had a verbal promise that 70CC would never be be added. Bruce I and I KNEW there was no better 1861. if you really believe this 1861 is better because of the plastic, you should not comment as you have seen neither in hand. This 1861 flunked CAC. The reverse kills it badly. How nieve for people to not think between Bruce and I-not matter what it takes or costs, we weren't going to put the FINEST-the absolute FINEST coins in his sets. Even today when a coin or two pops up, Bruce will buy it if it was better then what he has. So, yeah, you bet I am pissed. Its like taking a work of art and destroying it. That is the new type of hero? Really? In that case no.
No more observations that are just plain WRONG please...
Yes, what Delloy is doing is difficult. I do have some respect for him. But I wish he would not destroy these once in a life time sets. I sure won't offer him any more-I can't even look at what he did to my beloved 3CS set.
I don't travel at these kinds of numismatic altitudes.
But from my ground-based observation, I see the sets as Hansen's and they don't belong to anyone else.
I see absolutely nothing wrong with buying a coin that you like, regardless of who is selling it or what it is certified as.
@specialist said:
... Delloys impulses are a shame ...
... I do have some respect for him. ...
... I sure won't offer him any more ...
So you won't offer him any more coins because he bought some that you don't approve of from another source ?
If I was working with a dealer and they expressed that kind of attitude, I wouldn't work with that dealer any more either.
Dealers at the top of the chain get many amazing coins and have to decide who gets first shot. They rarely get fired
Unless a new fish with a strong financial backing starts to offer more/outbid the dealers. Eventually the others will skip over the aforesaid dealers and cut out the middleman to make more money. Who needs to bother with the Tuna and other intermediate sized fish when you can deal directly with the whale?
This is the second 1806 early silver half dollar shared on this forum. The first was the 1806 Early Half Dollar “O-108 Knob 6 No Stem” graded VF25. This coin is not as rare as the O-108 Specimen, but it does make a nice improvement to Early Half Dollars with Major Varieties set. This set requires 101 coins between the date of 1794 and 1839. The Hansen set is 96% completed. The set ranks 4th on the current list and 5th in the All-Time ranking. The set will need many more upgrades like this one as it moves up in the ranking.
The Major Varieties set requires 59 additional coins to the 42 coin basic set. Many of them are difficult coins to find in higher grades. PCGS description for the set: It’s not enough for you to build the basic set? You want more of a challenge? Good! You now get to collect both major varieties of the 1796, the rare 1795 3 Leaf, the RARE 1806 Knob 6 No Stem, the ultra-ultra-rare 1817/4 and dozens of other fun and interesting varieties. When you finish this set you might want to try every Overton variety in existence! Collectors love this series with a passion and we fully expect you to join the crowd. The set that is the top of this ranking is from the Early American Silver Collection.
The Hansen set is missing 4 coins: 1795 “Small Head”, 1812/1 “Large 8”, 1817/4 “Overdate” and 1839 “Reeded Edge, Small Letters”. The set has only two coins that are tied for finest, and no POP 1/0. The set has a lot of room for improvement, and this condition consus replacement is a start. The coin being replaced in this upgrade is Hansen’s 1806 “6/Invert 6” VF30 specimen that has a PCGS POP of 18/46.
The set requires six 1806 different varieties of half dollars. This coin is not as rare as some, but is difficult to find in mint state condition. My estimate for survival is only 5 (MS60 and better) and none are known to grade MS65 of better. There are two that PCGS grade at MS64. None are graded MS63, and Hansen’s MS62 is a single coin that is #4 on the PCGS census report, with a Non-PCGS est. graded coin in the third spot. To round out the known mint states is a MS61.
Ron Guth gives these expert comments on the coin: The 1806 6 over Inverted 6 Half Dollar is one of the more interesting "overdates" in the series. When creating the die, the engraver punched the 6 of the date upside-down, which was clearly a mistake since his 1809 die was three years early. He corrected the mistake by re-orienting the 6 correctly, then giving it a good punch to cover up the underlying 6. However, such efforts are usually futile, as remnants of the underdate are almost impossible to cover up. It does not appear that any attempt was made to efface the mistake, thus modern collectors have an unusual variey to add to their collection. The 6 over Inverted 6 was paired with two different reverse dies, creating the Overton 111 and Overton 112 varieties. Both are of approximately the same rarity and both are very scarce. High-grade examples are very rare and we know of only four Mint State examples. The best is the PCGS MS64 from the Norweb Collection, which resold in 2015 for a record $82,250.
I believe this MS62 Hansen coin is same coin that was in the Heritage’s 2016 CSNS Signature Auction in Chicago. The coin was in a PCGS MS61 holder. The coin was auction as 1806 50C 6 Over Inverted 6, O-111a, T-11, R.4, MS61 PCGS. The coin was described in the auction as: The popular 6 over Inverted 6 variety, in this instance an intermediate die state with a rim break over TED but only a crack over U. The Overton-111 is the middle die pair in a four-marriage. The obverse is used later for O-112, while the reverse was first used for O-110, and also for O-127. Reflective surfaces are visible beneath variegated gray, rose, sea-green, and lilac toning on both sides. The strike is typically weak at the drapery and right (facing) wing. A few minor scrapes and abrasions are evident on each side, including a thin, shallow mark on Liberty's neck. Excellent luster remains across both sides, glowing ember-orange at the centers. Eventually, the grading services will provide more accurate information by die pair and die state that will be more useful to determine the true rarity of this coin and others that share the 6 over Inverted 6 obverse. Die state is equally important in determining value. The coin realized $27,025.
I am not sure if Hansen purchased the coin as a MS61 and then upgraded, or purchased in a MS62 holder. There is not much information available after the 2015 auction.
Provenance: Michael Summers, sold privately in 8/1999 - Heritage 1/2008:1376, $18,400 - Premium Numismatics, sold privately in 1/2008 - Eugene H. Gardner Collection - Heritage 5/2015:98445, $25,850
From reviewing Eliasberg PCGS set with Major Varieties, Eliasberg had an estimated graded AU55 Specimen of this coin. He had 4 of the 6 varieties of the 1806 half dollars including the finest known MS65 Pointed 6, No Stem. Hansen has all 6 of the varieties required.
1806 50C 6 over Inverted 6 MS62, PCGS POP 1/2 Certification #34157553, PCGS #6078, PCGS Value Guide: $40,000
No Simpson is selling a few common areas he does like and is buying the areas he likes. notice, there are no school girls or amazonian singles ever offered any more? BUT if it is really cool and he doe s not have it, he will buy it.
For his gold, he lacks only J-1776 (which we offered $15 million for and got laughed at), J-1776 is now in trust for the guys grand kids. Mr Simspon has the most complete serious Gold Pattern set you can have. He has the Gold 1804 $10 (WOW)-we turned down $5,000,000.00 for it, The $20 1865 which we paid $4,000,000.00 for. A UHR in PR68 of course and the Amazonian set in gold to name a few. His gold alone is mind boggling as he has many unique coins. No one could ever top his gold-ever.
@specialist said:
No Simpson is selling a few common areas he does like and is buying the areas he likes. notice, there are no school girls or amazonian singles ever offered any more? BUT if it is really cool and he doe s not have it, he will buy it.
Good to know. It’s nice to buy what you like but it would also be amazing for someone to put together a complete pattern set.
@Zoins said:
it would also be amazing for someone to put together a complete pattern set.
Impossible unless the Smithsonian and a few other museums are liquidated. And since it’s impossible, it really doesn’t matter if you get to 3% or 97%. Just collect what you like and enjoy it.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@Zoins said:
it would also be amazing for someone to put together a complete pattern set.
Impossible unless the Smithsonian and a few other museums are liquidated. And since it’s impossible, it really doesn’t matter if you get to 3% or 97%. Just collect what you like and enjoy it.
Of course, it would just be for the privately available ones. If there’s no completing a set, then adding patterns to a complete set of US coins doesn’t seem to make the set any more interesting, and perhaps less so, as it diminishes the “complete” aspect of the accomplishment.
@specialist said:
For his gold, he lacks only J-1776 (which we offered $15 million for and got laughed at), J-1776 is now in trust for the guys grand kids.
Interesting to put a unique coin, particularly one so significant, into a trust; I can't imagine there would be many buyers placing a more competitive offer. You'd think putting a figure like that into a conservative, low-yield investment would be more attractive as far as trusts go, but it's hard to argue when the coin has gone up in value by >30x in less than 40 years, based on the offer.
@specialist said:
For his gold, he lacks only J-1776 (which we offered $15 million for and got laughed at), J-1776 is now in trust for the guys grand kids.
Interesting to put a unique coin, particularly one so significant, into a trust; I can't imagine there would be many buyers placing a more competitive offer. You'd think putting a figure like that into a conservative, low-yield investment would be more attractive as far as trusts go, but it's hard to argue when the coin has gone up in value by >30x in less than 40 years, based on the offer.
The person turned down 15 million for a coin I don't think they did it because of it's investment potential I think they did it because 15 million isn't a lot of money for them and keeping the coin in the family for generations to come is far more valuable to them.
@Zoins said:
it would also be amazing for someone to put together a complete pattern set.
Impossible unless the Smithsonian and a few other museums are liquidated. And since it’s impossible, it really doesn’t matter if you get to 3% or 97%. Just collect what you like and enjoy it.
Of course, it would just be for the privately available ones. If there’s no completing a set, then adding patterns to a complete set of US coins doesn’t seem to make the set any more interesting, and perhaps less so, as it diminishes the “complete” aspect of the accomplishment.
It’s also impossible to build a complete set of regular issue US coins. Not even Elisaberg did that.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
@Zoins said:
it would also be amazing for someone to put together a complete pattern set.
Impossible unless the Smithsonian and a few other museums are liquidated. And since it’s impossible, it really doesn’t matter if you get to 3% or 97%. Just collect what you like and enjoy it.
Of course, it would just be for the privately available ones. If there’s no completing a set, then adding patterns to a complete set of US coins doesn’t seem to make the set any more interesting, and perhaps less so, as it diminishes the “complete” aspect of the accomplishment.
It’s also impossible to build a complete set of regular issue US coins. Not even Elisaberg did that.
Hansen is trying for coins and that is what people care about. For patterns to be thought of the same, someone needs to try. If collectors of patterns can try but won’t, it’s just a unmet accomplishment.
Simpson is not attempting a complete-as-possible pattern collection, and with almost 10x the number Eliasberg had, Eliasberg didn’t come close, and perhaps didn’t try. There still seems to be the opportunity for a first collector to attempt a complete as possible collection.
Given this, patterns don’t seem to be part of the Eliasberg complete set quest as Eliasberg either wasn’t working on a complete set of patterns or didn’t make much progress.
No doubt Bob Simpson has the best collection of American patterns by far currently. He clearly collects the ones he loves, and we are all astounded at the unbelievable national treasures like the Amazonian set within it. I was surprised when he sold some of his 1792 patterns, but they aren't for everyone given their more primitive aesthetic. He has an eye for ridiculous quality and Legend should be respected for their assistance in building his collection. I had never heard anyone consider that Eliasberg was famous for his patterns (he had so few relative to many great pattern collections in history) or his foreign coins. Bob has clearly been competing directly with Wilkonsin in gold patterns (who had the original out-of-this-world gold pattern set). [http://pcgsblog.com/ron-guth/news/revisiting-the-dr-john-e-wilkison-collection-of-gold-u-s-patterns-part-v] Of course he also has many, many other stellar coins that are not patterns worth untold millions of dollars. Clearly, one of the greatest collections ever in existence, but apples and oranges compared to the Eliasberg quest.
The Eliasberg quest for a complete United States coin collection stands as the key ground where Del Loy is focused by all observations. He has already come so far in these past three years that his overall quality begets value that might already exceed Eliasberg despite the sticky last couple dozen coins. I am awestruck and didn't think building such a collection was possible. Del Loy's willingness to build this set from scratch is a much more monumental undertaking than Eliasberg in my view since he didn't buy a multi-generational collection as Eliasberg had done. Thanks to everyone (especially Currin) for building this blog, its really fun to watch.
@GoBust said:
Thanks to everyone (especially Currin) for building this blog, its really fun to watch.
Thanks, this means a lot. You too, have a great collection of early bust. I hope one day to peek in the cabinet. I think you recent started a Top 100 set, do I have this right? That is a tough club. Thanks again for contributing.
Who cares about patterns. That's an esoteric branch of coin collecting. What we should be focusing on is Hansen's pursuit of the complete Business and Proof U.S. coin collection. In this category, he's clearly the most prolific collector.
@GoBust said:
I had never heard anyone consider that Eliasberg was famous for his patterns (he had so few relative to many great pattern collections in history) or his foreign coins.
Eliasberg's Latin American gold was pretty special, but Clapp should get most of the credit for that.
BTW, if we're going to talk about US patterns, we should also be talking about colonials and pioneer gold.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thanks Currin for the efforts put forth in this thread.
Best wishes to DLHansen on his epic quest.
My only real input to this thread would be to call out a typo in Hansen's primary set (shows 1833 start for the series) in the WLH Late Date Registry.
His second set (no 1833 typo) features the pop 1/0 MS68 37-D, the second MS68 41-D, and the second MS68 1944 (the first MS68 went for over $100000, if you remember).
@GoBust said:
I had never heard anyone consider that Eliasberg was famous for his patterns (he had so few relative to many great pattern collections in history) or his foreign coins.
Eliasberg's Latin American gold was pretty special, but Clapp should get most of the credit for that.
BTW, if we're going to talk about US patterns, we should also be talking about colonials and pioneer gold.
Seems like the conclusion is that there’s no reason to consider patterns a core part of Eliasberg’s accomplishment and thus no reason for Hansen to work on patterns, at least in the goal of a complete US coin collection.
Hopefully this can put to rest those that have kept saying Hansen needs patterns.
@tradedollarnut said:
Seems to me that because they’ve become incorporated into mainstream numismatics that he will need at least a FEW patterns....
I'm not sure if bonafide patterns are "needed" in a complete collection of "US coins", but they may be very nice and appreciated additions. Over the years mainstream numismatics have incorporated many errors and my perspective is that it may be nice to correct than to perpetuate errors.
I tend to support the discussion that not all the 2000+ patterns are the same. It is hard to put any large group in one box, and that applies to patterns as well.
Being there is not a numismatics governance or authority for determining a final verdict for the definition of a complete US Issue Collection, there will always be disagreement. There was disagreement in Eliasberg day. Somethings will never change, and difference of opinions is one that certainly will not change. I often wondered how it was determined that Eliasberg Collection was completed in 1950. Was it as simple as he obtained the last coin on his personal checklist? We know he did not tell “anyone” for more than a year. So, I don’t think he was soliciting many opinions.
For me, my numismatics bible is the Red Book. It heavy influenced my decision on coins to be included on the countdown list. There are coins considered “patterns” listed in the US Regular Issues section of the book. In my opinion, these are a “must”. All the coins on Bruce’s list are included as US Regular Issues. I still feel the countdown list that we have been following for the past year is as valid of a measurement of a complete US Issued Collection as we can get. There are 21 left. I will show them again below.
By the way, the 1913 Liberty Head is listed in the Regular Issue section of the Red Book.
There are 21 remaining coins required for Hansen to build a complete collection of United States coins that included every date and mintmark combination known to exist at this time. (Eliasberg definition)
1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection)
1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection)
1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA)
1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection)
1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased)
1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned)
1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8)
1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9)
1894-S Barber Dime BM Proof Only (Survival 13)
1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17)
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series)
1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
1798 Quarter Eagle (Survival 80)
1840-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 65)
1854-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 75)
Note: Only two coins from this list were not in Eliasberg’s collection: 1870-S Half Dime (not known during his time) and 1866 "No Motto" Dollar (considered not required by Eliasberg and probably by Hansen too).
Eliasberg was thought to be complete in 1950, but he really was complete in 1953 when he purchased the Al Overton 1817/4 (the discovery coin from Wallis by all accounts and finest known). The key capped bust half dollar for redbook set. Its a coin I've grown rather fond of in my middle years. Really should be considered for inclusion in the challenge set. I was very surprised and intrigued when it wasn't included in the set. It is beyond just date and mint mark. Was a regular issue coin that circulated with PCGS AU53 the highest graded extant and all other examples below XF. Eliasberg sought and obtained the finest known example for $1500 in 1953 as apparently he decided he needed it for his set. Bust half dollar nuts essentially all view the 1817/4 is as the important key for the set as the 1823/2 quarter is key for capped bust quarters. In my opinion one of the five most important pre-1839 silver coins. Of course there are no less than five 1817s in the redbook set including two overdates of course and two coins that are die states which don't really fit the Eliasberg challenge. The 1817/4 is considered one of the top 100 US coins as well by the top 100 treatise and PCGS. I think that makes the Eliasberg/Overton/Wallis 1817/4 just a little bit more special. What do you think Currin? It would mean of course Del Loy should strive for 22 more coins. How many others might consider this a good addition for the esteemed Mr. Hansen?
@GoBust said:
Eliasberg was thought to be complete in 1950, but he really was complete in 1953 when he purchased the Al Overton 1817/4 (the discovery coin from Wallis by all accounts and finest known). The key capped bust half dollar for redbook set. Its a coin I've grown rather fond of in my middle years. Really should be considered for inclusion in the challenge set. I was very surprised and intrigued when it wasn't included in the set.
1817/4 Capped Bust Half Edward T. Wallis Discovery Specimen PCGS AU53 non-CAC pop 6/1/0 (all) pop 0/1/0 (Overton 102a)
This was discovered by E.T. Wallis, a dealer that owned the California Stamp Company of Los Angeles and announced in the October 1930 issue of The Numismatist. E.T. called it "practically uncirculated".
This particular coin may be difficult to get as it's currently in a private registry set: "The Link Early American Silver Overton Variety Set of Lettered Edge Half Dollars" and it's a pop 0/1/0 for the Overton 102a variety.
Roster of 1817/4 Half Dollars 1. AU53 PCGS. E.T. Wallis-Louis Eliasberg specimen, O-102a. Offered in a Fixed Price List by Wallis, said by Wallis to have been in a family collection since 1846; "rediscovered" in the Pratt Collection by Al Overton (1953), sold to Louis Eliasberg for $1,500; Eliasberg Collection (Bowers and Merena, 4/1997), lot 1735; purchased out of Eliasberg by Don Kagin and Andrew Lustig for $209,000; sold ca. June 1997 by Kagin and Lustig to Dr. Juan XII Suros for a reported $250,000; Juan XII Suros Collection (Superior, > 2/1999), lot 180; sold to Jay Parrino and Don Kagin for approximately $184,000; ANA Auction (Bowers and Merena, 7/2003), lot 14430, unsold; Richmond II Collection (David Lawrence, 11/2004), lot 1388; sold to George "Buddy" Byers for $333,500; George "Buddy" Byers Collection (Stack's, 10/2006), lot 1031, to John Gervasoni; "Treasures from the S.S. New York" Sale (Stack's, 7/2009), lot 542, where it realized $356,500. The finest of the eleven known examples. 2. XF Details NGC. George Williams example, O-102a, XF Details, Corroded ANACS, subsequently crossed over to an NGC XF Details, Environmental Damage holder. Reported in Coin World on February 13, 2006, page 10; discovered by George Williams in some fill dirt in upper New York in 2005, dipped in Tarn-X; FUN Signature (Heritage, 1/2006), lot 3184; Central States Signature (Heritage, 4/2009), lot 2418, where it brought $109,500; Philadelphia Signature (Heritage, 8/2012), lot 1173, realized $164,500. 3. VF35 PCGS. Charlton Meyer/D. Brent Pogue specimen, O-102. Purchased from a coin dealer in 1962 by Al Overton; sold to Empire Coin Company; sold privately to Hazen B. Hinman; The Century Sale (Paramount, 5/1965), lot 1112; offered in The Rare Coin Review (Bowers and Ruddy, issues #18-22, 1973-1975); purchased by Gloria Meyer as a gift for her husband, Charlton Meyer; sold to Sheridan Downey and Stu Levine, March 2008; Downey and Levine to the Pogues; D. Brent Pogue Collection (Stack's Bowers, 9/2015), lot 2021, realized $282,000. 4. VF25 NGC. Floyd Farley specimen, O-102a. Discovered or first reported by Thomas Pfeffer in 1967 or 1968 and sent to Don Taxay for authentication and sale; sold to Stewart Witham in early 1968; sold privately by Witham to Floyd Farley in March 1968, where it remained until 2002; Floyd Farley Collection (Sheridan Downey, 7/2002), lot 8, where it brought $132,000. 5. VF20 PCGS. Alfred E. Burke example, O-102a. Acquired in 1965 by Burke of Philadelphia from Robert Dando as a "Punctuated Date" (O-103) in 1970 for $28; recognized by Burke as an 1817/4 in 1973 or 1974 after he bought the 1970 edition of Overton's reference; Sheridan Downey Mail Bid Sale (4/1997), where it brought $135,000; Oregon Collection of Capped Bust Half Dollars (Downey, 7/2005), lot 100,where it realized $193,359 to James Ross; crossed over from NGC VF20 to PCGS VF20 at ANA show in August 2009. 6. VF20 PCGS. Stewart Witham example, O-102a. Discovered by Ohio coin dealer Ed Johnson, who owned it in the 1940s; purchased by Stewart Witham in 1966; offered privately in 1983; ANA Signature (Heritage, 8/2010), lot 3147. 7. VF Details - Tooled PCGS Secure. Newly discovered example, O-102. The most recently discovered example, purchased from a dealer as an example of the O-103 variety; Chicago ANA Auction (Stack's Bowers, 8/2014), lot 13096. 8. Fine 15 PCGS. Leonard Elton Dosier specimen, O-102. Discovered by Milton Silverman in 1976. Silverman did not reveal the existence of this piece until 1985. Sold to Leonard Elton Dosier; sold privately by Elton Dosier to Sheridan Downey in 1988; Mail Bid Sale #22 (Downey, 10/1988), lot 268, to John Crowley for $90,860; Crowley Selected Rarities Sale (Downey MBS, 8/2001), lot 4, to Jonathan Tidwell for $116,771; sold privately by Sheridan Downey from the Tidwell Collection (8/2004), for $135,000; sold privately by Anthony Terranova on December 6, 2004 to Dr. Charles Link for $155,000. 9. VG8 PCGS. The Louisiana coin, O-102a, discovered and announced in the numismatic press in July of 2012; purchased for $140,000 on July 3, 2012; currently part of an advanced Capped Bust half dollar collection in Louisiana. 10. Good 6 PCGS. The Colorado coin, O-102. Found by a Colorado woman in a family inheritance in 2007. Reported in December 17, 2007 Coin World that an anonymous woman had received the coin from her father's coin collection left to her and her three siblings 10 years before; source unknown. Sold from the Colorado woman in the ANA Signature (Heritage, 7/2008), lot 1680, where it realized $87,499 to the present consignor; crossed by him from ICG VG8 Obverse Scratch to PCGS Good 6. The scratch extends from the clasp to the left of the date. The coin displays VG detail. The present coin. 11. Good 6, Repaired. Overton example, O-102. Located in 1963 or 1964 by Ed Shapiro; sold to Dan Messer in 1964 or 1965; sold to John Cobb in 1965; sold to Steve Markoff in 1969; Al Overton bought the coin in 1969 and had a gouge on the reverse repaired (smoothed out); inherited by Donald and Bonnie Parsley (Al's daughter) in 1972; sold with the Al Overton Collection by Sheridan Downey in July 1993 to the current owner.
The 1817/4 half dollar is a cool coin, but it's in the category of a "Redbook Die Variety".
I think it's fair to say it is separate and at a different level from the "date and mint mark set".
I realize the set composition has a few gray areas, such as when there is a "major design change".
For example, in 1837, there were both bust half dimes and liberty seated half dimes.
So that is 2 in the year from Philadelphia instead of the normal 1.
Similar for 1853 without arrows and with arrows (lower weight).
You might think for later issues "major design" could be defined by any time the hub changes,
but sometimes it is very small and not "major" or even in the Redbook (example: 1857 half dimes had 2 obverse hubs).
So you could say it boils down to defining what "major" is.
We could let the Redbook do that, but it changes over time, so it would be nicer to have a more objective definition.
But "major" is ultimately a value judgement, a threshold which could have some things barely over it and others barely under it.
Most of this doesn't matter for DLH, though, as he collects at many levels. (Set definition makes a fun debate for us kibitzers, though).
He would probably be glad to have an 1817/4 bust half dollar in his collection, but the low availability in higher grades could mean a long wait for a suitable specimen.
@yosclimber said:
He would probably be glad to have an 1817/4 bust half dollar in his collection, but the low availability in higher grades could mean a long wait for a suitable specimen.
It seems like there's only 1 in higher grade (AU53). From the Heritage known specimens roster, after the AU, there is a XF Details after which we're down in the VF range.
I'd take the well supported view that as major overdate that is the key coin in the redbook set would far exceed "die variety" as suggested. But i respect everyone thoughts here. Its a top 100 US coin. Many die varieties, of which their are 13 for 1817 and 453 for the series have nearly imperceptible differences to the naked eye, this overrate is bold and obvious. Del Loy added the finest known of four 1853-O no arrows half dollar in PCGS VF35 Ex: Garrett to his set for example and its not a different date or mint mark, but a major rarity that is the key to the Redbook set of seated halves. The 1853-O no arrow halves circulated as well with all examples well worn and Del Loys is the finest known by a country mile.
@tradedollarnut said:
I’m pretty sure the dime he had ...he was outbid at auction then later paid up to acquire it
@Q_David_Bowers, 1996 Eliasberg sale item description:
The story of Abe Kosoff and the Menjou Collection is told in Chapter 4 of the book, "Louis E Eliasberg, Sr.: King of Coins," as are the details of the scenario when this coin came up for bidding competition. The buyer of the unique 1873-CC Without Arrows dime was James Kelly of Dayton, Ohio, a dealer who one time also handled three of the five known 1913 Lberty Head nickels, and his partner in the purchase was Sol Kaplan professional numismatist from Cincinnati.
On November 7. 1950, Kelly sold the coin to Louis E. Eliasberg, Sr., thus completing his cabinet.
A lot of references take notice of the 1953 Life Magazine feature titled: GEMs FROM THE GREATEST COIN COLLECTION OF U.S. COINS. This may have been the first national publication to reference the Greatest Coin Collection. This was before most of our time, but I do wonder about a couple questions. Was he really the undisputed King of Coins? (another title was known to be used at that time). Second question, if he was undisputed King, when did he get dethrone? Don’t you keep the title to someone take you down? If so, when did it happen and by whom? Did someone do it underground, and most of us just did not hear about it? I thought to recently Eliasberg still have the title of King of Coins and assembled THE GREATEST COIN COLLECTION OF U.S. COINS, but who am I to say.
Below you will find the layout picture from the 1953 feature. I know it is not the greatest picture, but it features some of the coins that were considered his GEMs. It interesting to me what is included and what is not. I think the Colonial (Eliasberg called early coins) were some of his favorites. I am not sure if it means much or not, but can you guess the category of coins that he excluded in this important feature on his US Coin Collection? Well maybe not total exclusion, there are two or three coins that can go one way or the other.
How can the 1804 $1 possibly be "unique?" I wonder if Eliasberg represented it to Life as "unique." And how is it that of fifteen known, this is the only one that can be traced to the U.S. Mint. Where were the other 14 struck? The double-secret counterfeit mint in Siam??
Comments
Agree about the saint set also.
The 1933 beats the Judd 1776 pattern because who even knows what that is.
(Eliasberg & Hansen both had/have the EX-HR 1907 pattern)
My Saint Set
Simpson has nearly 2000 patterns!!!!!!! Not all are posted. Ok, so he needs 1,000 more to complete-and he has the only gold pattern set possible.
I know he had something like 2000 pieces, but hasn't he since sold off some of the less interesting parts of the collection?
As for DLH "needing" to collect patterns to compete with Eliasberg, he obviously gets to decide that for himself. But I will say that watching the way he has built his collection, he probably won't get too serious about patterns until he has a chance to buy a large collection of them. I think he understands that speed-building a major collection of patterns one coin at a time is a great way to run the market up on yourself.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
It sounds like it may be possible to claim your client has exceeded Eliasberg for patterns. After all, nearly 2000 is much more than about 210. Does this help?
How complete was Eliasberg's So-Called Dollar collection?
The following So-Called Dollar registry set by @ScarsdaleCoin is seeking to better Eliasberg. Emphasis below mine.
https://coins.www.collectors-society.com/wcm/CoinCustomSetView.aspx?s=15056
Andy, you are right, He has about 1,750 left.....And from time to time we are still buying!
Think about it---at first when Hansen's goal went public the discussion was whether he could actually find and acquire all the coins. Then after his collection grew it turned to the quality of his coins. Now that he has many top pops the discussion has turned to.....patterns! I think this says more about the success of Hansen's collection than anything else.
If I owned a coin that Mr. Hansen needed to assist in his set completion, and a price was agreed upon, I would welcome his purchase. Just to be a part of this modern collecting quest which I have followed. Just think, the piece in question could be labeled "Previously owned by BLUEJAYWAY" while it resides in it's new home.
I agree. It is annoying. Who cares who has the "best" set or is the "greatest" collector?
This is about one specific set. The remaining comments are off topic fluff and should be removed by the moderators. The animus and envy in this thread is baffling.
Maybe Hansen doesn't care for patterns or has no interest in a complete set of patterns even if he has acquired a few pieces of interest. My understanding is that he is attempting to build a complete U.S. regular issue business strike set.
Unless a new fish with a strong financial backing starts to offer more/outbid the dealers. Eventually the others will skip over the aforesaid dealers and cut out the middleman to make more money. Who needs to bother with the Tuna and other intermediate sized fish when you can deal directly with the whale?
Silver Half Dollar
This is the second 1806 early silver half dollar shared on this forum. The first was the 1806 Early Half Dollar “O-108 Knob 6 No Stem” graded VF25. This coin is not as rare as the O-108 Specimen, but it does make a nice improvement to Early Half Dollars with Major Varieties set. This set requires 101 coins between the date of 1794 and 1839. The Hansen set is 96% completed. The set ranks 4th on the current list and 5th in the All-Time ranking. The set will need many more upgrades like this one as it moves up in the ranking.
The Major Varieties set requires 59 additional coins to the 42 coin basic set. Many of them are difficult coins to find in higher grades. PCGS description for the set: It’s not enough for you to build the basic set? You want more of a challenge? Good! You now get to collect both major varieties of the 1796, the rare 1795 3 Leaf, the RARE 1806 Knob 6 No Stem, the ultra-ultra-rare 1817/4 and dozens of other fun and interesting varieties. When you finish this set you might want to try every Overton variety in existence! Collectors love this series with a passion and we fully expect you to join the crowd. The set that is the top of this ranking is from the Early American Silver Collection.
The Hansen set is missing 4 coins: 1795 “Small Head”, 1812/1 “Large 8”, 1817/4 “Overdate” and 1839 “Reeded Edge, Small Letters”. The set has only two coins that are tied for finest, and no POP 1/0. The set has a lot of room for improvement, and this condition consus replacement is a start. The coin being replaced in this upgrade is Hansen’s 1806 “6/Invert 6” VF30 specimen that has a PCGS POP of 18/46.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/half-dollars/early-half-dollars-major-sets/early-half-dollars-major-varieties-circulation-strikes-1794-1839/alltimeset/152149
1806 50C “6 over Inverted 6”, MS62
The set requires six 1806 different varieties of half dollars. This coin is not as rare as some, but is difficult to find in mint state condition. My estimate for survival is only 5 (MS60 and better) and none are known to grade MS65 of better. There are two that PCGS grade at MS64. None are graded MS63, and Hansen’s MS62 is a single coin that is #4 on the PCGS census report, with a Non-PCGS est. graded coin in the third spot. To round out the known mint states is a MS61.
Ron Guth gives these expert comments on the coin: The 1806 6 over Inverted 6 Half Dollar is one of the more interesting "overdates" in the series. When creating the die, the engraver punched the 6 of the date upside-down, which was clearly a mistake since his 1809 die was three years early. He corrected the mistake by re-orienting the 6 correctly, then giving it a good punch to cover up the underlying 6. However, such efforts are usually futile, as remnants of the underdate are almost impossible to cover up. It does not appear that any attempt was made to efface the mistake, thus modern collectors have an unusual variey to add to their collection. The 6 over Inverted 6 was paired with two different reverse dies, creating the Overton 111 and Overton 112 varieties. Both are of approximately the same rarity and both are very scarce. High-grade examples are very rare and we know of only four Mint State examples. The best is the PCGS MS64 from the Norweb Collection, which resold in 2015 for a record $82,250.
I believe this MS62 Hansen coin is same coin that was in the Heritage’s 2016 CSNS Signature Auction in Chicago. The coin was in a PCGS MS61 holder. The coin was auction as 1806 50C 6 Over Inverted 6, O-111a, T-11, R.4, MS61 PCGS. The coin was described in the auction as: The popular 6 over Inverted 6 variety, in this instance an intermediate die state with a rim break over TED but only a crack over U. The Overton-111 is the middle die pair in a four-marriage. The obverse is used later for O-112, while the reverse was first used for O-110, and also for O-127. Reflective surfaces are visible beneath variegated gray, rose, sea-green, and lilac toning on both sides. The strike is typically weak at the drapery and right (facing) wing. A few minor scrapes and abrasions are evident on each side, including a thin, shallow mark on Liberty's neck. Excellent luster remains across both sides, glowing ember-orange at the centers. Eventually, the grading services will provide more accurate information by die pair and die state that will be more useful to determine the true rarity of this coin and others that share the 6 over Inverted 6 obverse. Die state is equally important in determining value. The coin realized $27,025.
I am not sure if Hansen purchased the coin as a MS61 and then upgraded, or purchased in a MS62 holder. There is not much information available after the 2015 auction.
Provenance: Michael Summers, sold privately in 8/1999 - Heritage 1/2008:1376, $18,400 - Premium Numismatics, sold privately in 1/2008 - Eugene H. Gardner Collection - Heritage 5/2015:98445, $25,850
From reviewing Eliasberg PCGS set with Major Varieties, Eliasberg had an estimated graded AU55 Specimen of this coin. He had 4 of the 6 varieties of the 1806 half dollars including the finest known MS65 Pointed 6, No Stem. Hansen has all 6 of the varieties required.
1806 50C 6 over Inverted 6 MS62, PCGS POP 1/2
Certification #34157553, PCGS #6078, PCGS Value Guide: $40,000
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Happy Easter to Delloy. Damn he needs a ton of bunnies to deliver eggs to his huge family (he has 30+ grade kids)!
Does Simpson have any interest in completing the Pattern Set?
No Simpson is selling a few common areas he does like and is buying the areas he likes. notice, there are no school girls or amazonian singles ever offered any more? BUT if it is really cool and he doe s not have it, he will buy it.
For his gold, he lacks only J-1776 (which we offered $15 million for and got laughed at), J-1776 is now in trust for the guys grand kids. Mr Simspon has the most complete serious Gold Pattern set you can have. He has the Gold 1804 $10 (WOW)-we turned down $5,000,000.00 for it, The $20 1865 which we paid $4,000,000.00 for. A UHR in PR68 of course and the Amazonian set in gold to name a few. His gold alone is mind boggling as he has many unique coins. No one could ever top his gold-ever.
Good to know. It’s nice to buy what you like but it would also be amazing for someone to put together a complete pattern set.
Impossible unless the Smithsonian and a few other museums are liquidated. And since it’s impossible, it really doesn’t matter if you get to 3% or 97%. Just collect what you like and enjoy it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Of course, it would just be for the privately available ones. If there’s no completing a set, then adding patterns to a complete set of US coins doesn’t seem to make the set any more interesting, and perhaps less so, as it diminishes the “complete” aspect of the accomplishment.
Interesting to put a unique coin, particularly one so significant, into a trust; I can't imagine there would be many buyers placing a more competitive offer. You'd think putting a figure like that into a conservative, low-yield investment would be more attractive as far as trusts go, but it's hard to argue when the coin has gone up in value by >30x in less than 40 years, based on the offer.
I have to agree here especially since it would blow away the highest price ever paid for a coin that the public has knowledge of.
The person turned down 15 million for a coin I don't think they did it because of it's investment potential I think they did it because 15 million isn't a lot of money for them and keeping the coin in the family for generations to come is far more valuable to them.
It’s also impossible to build a complete set of regular issue US coins. Not even Elisaberg did that.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Hansen is trying for coins and that is what people care about. For patterns to be thought of the same, someone needs to try. If collectors of patterns can try but won’t, it’s just a unmet accomplishment.
Simpson is not attempting a complete-as-possible pattern collection, and with almost 10x the number Eliasberg had, Eliasberg didn’t come close, and perhaps didn’t try. There still seems to be the opportunity for a first collector to attempt a complete as possible collection.
Given this, patterns don’t seem to be part of the Eliasberg complete set quest as Eliasberg either wasn’t working on a complete set of patterns or didn’t make much progress.
No doubt Bob Simpson has the best collection of American patterns by far currently. He clearly collects the ones he loves, and we are all astounded at the unbelievable national treasures like the Amazonian set within it. I was surprised when he sold some of his 1792 patterns, but they aren't for everyone given their more primitive aesthetic. He has an eye for ridiculous quality and Legend should be respected for their assistance in building his collection. I had never heard anyone consider that Eliasberg was famous for his patterns (he had so few relative to many great pattern collections in history) or his foreign coins. Bob has clearly been competing directly with Wilkonsin in gold patterns (who had the original out-of-this-world gold pattern set). [http://pcgsblog.com/ron-guth/news/revisiting-the-dr-john-e-wilkison-collection-of-gold-u-s-patterns-part-v] Of course he also has many, many other stellar coins that are not patterns worth untold millions of dollars. Clearly, one of the greatest collections ever in existence, but apples and oranges compared to the Eliasberg quest.
The Eliasberg quest for a complete United States coin collection stands as the key ground where Del Loy is focused by all observations. He has already come so far in these past three years that his overall quality begets value that might already exceed Eliasberg despite the sticky last couple dozen coins. I am awestruck and didn't think building such a collection was possible. Del Loy's willingness to build this set from scratch is a much more monumental undertaking than Eliasberg in my view since he didn't buy a multi-generational collection as Eliasberg had done. Thanks to everyone (especially Currin) for building this blog, its really fun to watch.
Thanks, this means a lot. You too, have a great collection of early bust. I hope one day to peek in the cabinet. I think you recent started a Top 100 set, do I have this right? That is a tough club. Thanks again for contributing.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Who cares about patterns. That's an esoteric branch of coin collecting. What we should be focusing on is Hansen's pursuit of the complete Business and Proof U.S. coin collection. In this category, he's clearly the most prolific collector.
Eliasberg's Latin American gold was pretty special, but Clapp should get most of the credit for that.
BTW, if we're going to talk about US patterns, we should also be talking about colonials and pioneer gold.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Thanks Currin for the efforts put forth in this thread.
Best wishes to DLHansen on his epic quest.
My only real input to this thread would be to call out a typo in Hansen's primary set (shows 1833 start for the series) in the WLH Late Date Registry.
His second set (no 1833 typo) features the pop 1/0 MS68 37-D, the second MS68 41-D, and the second MS68 1944 (the first MS68 went for over $100000, if you remember).
Seems like the conclusion is that there’s no reason to consider patterns a core part of Eliasberg’s accomplishment and thus no reason for Hansen to work on patterns, at least in the goal of a complete US coin collection.
Hopefully this can put to rest those that have kept saying Hansen needs patterns.
Soooo....where do you draw the line on pattern, not pattern?
1856 flying eagle
1836 gobrecht
$4 stellas
1792 half disme
To name a few examples
Seems to me that because they’ve become incorporated into mainstream numismatics that he will need at least a FEW patterns....
I'm not sure if bonafide patterns are "needed" in a complete collection of "US coins", but they may be very nice and appreciated additions. Over the years mainstream numismatics have incorporated many errors and my perspective is that it may be nice to correct than to perpetuate errors.
Anytime someone tells me I need to start collecting something, it's because they want to sell me something. Just saying.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
I tend to support the discussion that not all the 2000+ patterns are the same. It is hard to put any large group in one box, and that applies to patterns as well.
Being there is not a numismatics governance or authority for determining a final verdict for the definition of a complete US Issue Collection, there will always be disagreement. There was disagreement in Eliasberg day. Somethings will never change, and difference of opinions is one that certainly will not change. I often wondered how it was determined that Eliasberg Collection was completed in 1950. Was it as simple as he obtained the last coin on his personal checklist? We know he did not tell “anyone” for more than a year. So, I don’t think he was soliciting many opinions.
For me, my numismatics bible is the Red Book. It heavy influenced my decision on coins to be included on the countdown list. There are coins considered “patterns” listed in the US Regular Issues section of the book. In my opinion, these are a “must”. All the coins on Bruce’s list are included as US Regular Issues. I still feel the countdown list that we have been following for the past year is as valid of a measurement of a complete US Issued Collection as we can get. There are 21 left. I will show them again below.
By the way, the 1913 Liberty Head is listed in the Regular Issue section of the Red Book.
There are 21 remaining coins required for Hansen to build a complete collection of United States coins that included every date and mintmark combination known to exist at this time. (Eliasberg definition)
1870-S Half Dime (Unique Coin in Tom Bender PCGS Registry Collection)
1873-CC "No Arrows" Dime (Unique Coin in an anonymous collection)
1870-S Three Dollar Only (Unique Coin owned by the Bass Foundation displayed at the ANA)
1866 "No Motto" Dollar Proof Only (2 Minted, Unique Private Coin in Simpson Collection)
1822 Half Eagle (Survival 3, Unique Private Owned Coin in the Pogue Collection)
1933 Double Eagle (Known Survival 16, Unique Legally Owned Coin - anonymous collection)
1854-S Half Eagle (Survival 4, Two known in private: 1-Pogue AU58+; 2- XF45 sold July 2018)
1798 "Small Eagle" Half Eagle (Survival 7, Only 2 maybe 3 examples could be privately purchased)
1913 Liberty Head Nickel Proof Only (5 Minted, 3 private owned)
1838-0 Half Dollar BM Only (Survival 9, six known for private purchase)
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Coiled Hair) Proof Only (Survival 8)
1827 "Original" Quarter Dollar Proof Only (Survival 9)
1894-S Barber Dime BM Proof Only (Survival 13)
1841 Quarter Eagle (Survival for regular strikes 12, proofs 4)
1819 Half Eagle (Survival for “No Variety” 7, for “5D/50” 17)
1880 Four Dollar Gold "Stella’s" (Flowing Hair) Proof Only (Survival 24)
1933 Ten Dollar (Survival 40, rarest issue in series)
1839 Gobrecht Dollar Proof Only (Survival 60-75)
1798 Quarter Eagle (Survival 80)
1840-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 65)
1854-D Quarter Eagle (Survival 75)
Note: Only two coins from this list were not in Eliasberg’s collection: 1870-S Half Dime (not known during his time) and 1866 "No Motto" Dollar (considered not required by Eliasberg and probably by Hansen too).
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
anyone know the market value for the last 21 coins?
I can't wait until he has 10 to go.
That countdown will be really exciting.
It could happen by this time next year
My Saint Set
Who knows??? Several are priceless, thus unable to quantify!
One beeeeelion dollarssssss
Eliasberg was thought to be complete in 1950, but he really was complete in 1953 when he purchased the Al Overton 1817/4 (the discovery coin from Wallis by all accounts and finest known). The key capped bust half dollar for redbook set. Its a coin I've grown rather fond of in my middle years. Really should be considered for inclusion in the challenge set. I was very surprised and intrigued when it wasn't included in the set. It is beyond just date and mint mark. Was a regular issue coin that circulated with PCGS AU53 the highest graded extant and all other examples below XF. Eliasberg sought and obtained the finest known example for $1500 in 1953 as apparently he decided he needed it for his set. Bust half dollar nuts essentially all view the 1817/4 is as the important key for the set as the 1823/2 quarter is key for capped bust quarters. In my opinion one of the five most important pre-1839 silver coins. Of course there are no less than five 1817s in the redbook set including two overdates of course and two coins that are die states which don't really fit the Eliasberg challenge. The 1817/4 is considered one of the top 100 US coins as well by the top 100 treatise and PCGS. I think that makes the Eliasberg/Overton/Wallis 1817/4 just a little bit more special. What do you think Currin? It would mean of course Del Loy should strive for 22 more coins. How many others might consider this a good addition for the esteemed Mr. Hansen?
1817/4 Capped Bust Half Edward T. Wallis Discovery Specimen PCGS AU53 non-CAC pop 6/1/0 (all) pop 0/1/0 (Overton 102a)
This was discovered by E.T. Wallis, a dealer that owned the California Stamp Company of Los Angeles and announced in the October 1930 issue of The Numismatist. E.T. called it "practically uncirculated".
This particular coin may be difficult to get as it's currently in a private registry set: "The Link Early American Silver Overton Variety Set of Lettered Edge Half Dollars" and it's a pop 0/1/0 for the Overton 102a variety.
Here are the 11 known specimens from Heritage:
https://coins.ha.com/itm/bust-half-dollars/1817-4-50c-o-102-high-r7-good-6-pcgs/a/1272-3878.s
The 1817/4 half dollar is a cool coin, but it's in the category of a "Redbook Die Variety".
I think it's fair to say it is separate and at a different level from the "date and mint mark set".
I realize the set composition has a few gray areas, such as when there is a "major design change".
For example, in 1837, there were both bust half dimes and liberty seated half dimes.
So that is 2 in the year from Philadelphia instead of the normal 1.
Similar for 1853 without arrows and with arrows (lower weight).
You might think for later issues "major design" could be defined by any time the hub changes,
but sometimes it is very small and not "major" or even in the Redbook (example: 1857 half dimes had 2 obverse hubs).
So you could say it boils down to defining what "major" is.
We could let the Redbook do that, but it changes over time, so it would be nicer to have a more objective definition.
But "major" is ultimately a value judgement, a threshold which could have some things barely over it and others barely under it.
Most of this doesn't matter for DLH, though, as he collects at many levels. (Set definition makes a fun debate for us kibitzers, though).
He would probably be glad to have an 1817/4 bust half dollar in his collection, but the low availability in higher grades could mean a long wait for a suitable specimen.
It seems like there's only 1 in higher grade (AU53). From the Heritage known specimens roster, after the AU, there is a XF Details after which we're down in the VF range.
I'd take the well supported view that as major overdate that is the key coin in the redbook set would far exceed "die variety" as suggested. But i respect everyone thoughts here. Its a top 100 US coin. Many die varieties, of which their are 13 for 1817 and 453 for the series have nearly imperceptible differences to the naked eye, this overrate is bold and obvious. Del Loy added the finest known of four 1853-O no arrows half dollar in PCGS VF35 Ex: Garrett to his set for example and its not a different date or mint mark, but a major rarity that is the key to the Redbook set of seated halves. The 1853-O no arrow halves circulated as well with all examples well worn and Del Loys is the finest known by a country mile.
Eliasberg never had the 10C 1873CC or the H.10 70S (good luck getting that one from the current owner)!!
I’m pretty sure the dime he had ...he was outbid at auction then later paid up to acquire it
https://www.pcgs.com/coinfacts/coin/1873-cc-10c-no-arrows/4661
A lot of references take notice of the 1953 Life Magazine feature titled: GEMs FROM THE GREATEST COIN COLLECTION OF U.S. COINS. This may have been the first national publication to reference the Greatest Coin Collection. This was before most of our time, but I do wonder about a couple questions. Was he really the undisputed King of Coins? (another title was known to be used at that time). Second question, if he was undisputed King, when did he get dethrone? Don’t you keep the title to someone take you down? If so, when did it happen and by whom? Did someone do it underground, and most of us just did not hear about it? I thought to recently Eliasberg still have the title of King of Coins and assembled THE GREATEST COIN COLLECTION OF U.S. COINS, but who am I to say.
Below you will find the layout picture from the 1953 feature. I know it is not the greatest picture, but it features some of the coins that were considered his GEMs. It interesting to me what is included and what is not. I think the Colonial (Eliasberg called early coins) were some of his favorites. I am not sure if it means much or not, but can you guess the category of coins that he excluded in this important feature on his US Coin Collection? Well maybe not total exclusion, there are two or three coins that can go one way or the other.
My 20th Century Gold Major Design Type Set ---started : 11/17/1997 ---- completed : 1/21/2004
Pretty cool. Here is a larger version with readable text.
Life magazine, April 27, 1953 from
https://books.google.com/books?id=KUkEAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA114&source=gbs_toc_r&hl=en#v=onepage&q&f=false
The article continues with a page of foreign coins (almost all gold, including one ancient),
and a page on Eliasberg and the collection. All readable at the link above.
How can the 1804 $1 possibly be "unique?" I wonder if Eliasberg represented it to Life as "unique." And how is it that of fifteen known, this is the only one that can be traced to the U.S. Mint. Where were the other 14 struck? The double-secret counterfeit mint in Siam??