Could one of you technically competent people please do an overlay of IN GOD WE TRUST, lining up the right upright of the U?
Thx.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@lkeigwin said:
Keets asked for an overlay using a high grade example from Coinfacts. Here you go.
These things are never perfect due to all the aspects that must be aligned -- size, orientation, rotation, square images, etc. All sorts of challenges. But maybe this helps.
Lance.
Seated Half Society member #38 "Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The above overlay pulls me toward the "genuine" side. The outstretched arm is what has always bothered me but now I'm thinking it could just be the way the light reflects off of it.
Thanks Catbert. I thought I saw a difference in the relationship between the D and the U, but this proves there is not.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
The flatness in the outstretched arm does not seem right. I have seen like only on well circulated pieces. If I were conteplating purchase with no other information, I would say fake and pass even at a fraction of what this coin sold for. All in all, the coin just doesn't look ' right'. jmho!
@keets said:
sort of like how people talk about playing the Lottery, you always hear about the winners but never about the losers.
possibly.
But you also have this coin bought in a foreign country by someone who may not wish to submit to a TPGS. A private coin in a private collection will not get any notoriety or fanfare unless the owner's ego desires it.
I accept that we are in different camps, you tend to believe(or want to believe) that the coin is genuine while I remain skeptical absent any more evidence than a not really reliable picture. I initially believed it to be some sort of copy, not a genuine coin, but as time has passed decided to wait for something else to happen that would swing me to one side or the other. strangely, the lack of anything happening has also landed us in different camps. to you it seems to be the result of someone wanting to keep the coin private, to me it tends to reinforce the belief that the coin isn't genuine and pride is at stake.
it shows an interesting view we each have of human nature, based I would guess on our own life experiences.
@keets said:
I accept that we are in different camps, you tend to believe(or want to believe) that the coin is genuine while I remain skeptical absent any more evidence than a not really reliable picture. I initially believed it to be some sort of copy, not a genuine coin, but as time has passed decided to wait for something else to happen that would swing me to one side or the other. strangely, the lack of anything happening has also landed us in different camps. to you it seems to be the result of someone wanting to keep the coin private, to me it tends to reinforce the belief that the coin isn't genuine and pride is at stake.
it shows an interesting view we each have of human nature, based I would guess on our own life experiences.
Actually, it is more interesting to me that you are ascribing thoughts and feelings to me that I do NOT possess.
I don't know or care whether the coin is genuine.
But the fact is NO ONE on this board knows whether or not it is genuine.
And NO ONE is going to be able to tell from a single auction photo.
And NO ONE is going to be able to conclude anything from lack of evidence which is not, itself, evidence
There still is a "raw world" out there. I know this is a slabbed world on this message board, but that is not representative of the world as a whole. That was a European coin auction and if the winner was a European who does not use TPGS, the coin will not resurface until it is resold.
So, frankly, I remain UNKNOWING of the authenticity of that coin. Admittedly. Others seem to want to assume that the absence of the coin in a pop report proves something.
I'd also point out that if the coin were a specimen strike of some kind, it is quite possible that PCGS or NGC would not know what to do with it, if they were even willing to recognize it. It could well be a long road to recognition, even if the coin had been submitted.
I'm, I'm not ascribing anything other than what you have posted, please excuse me if that's what you inferred. your posts have consistently "leaned" towards the coin being genuine in that your tendency is to question anyone who thinks it's a fake.
I apologize if I have interpreted things wrongly. trying to understand what someone thinks from an online post can be tricky, I would only remind you that it works both ways.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
Coins and items such as this increase interest overall. I don't have a stake in it, but am enjoying the discussion. I do concur with Europeans still having a proclivity for NOT slabbing coins & if it went to a European collection that it might not come up for slabbing unless it is sold again.
I also think that many things are possible at the mint, especially 80, 90 or more years ago. Is there 100% security against "special" activities at all times and against all employees?
This coin would certainly bear being seen in hand by a panel of experts, even if not slabbed.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Catbert... awesome overlay. It would be hard to believe it is a fake; it is so superbly done if so. But I do see some noticeable variances in several areas; each of the feet, and the area under the leaves across from the T in LIBERTY; also the before mentioned 'flatness of the arm seems out of place. A couple of similar type areas on the reverse.
Also, check out the bottom horizontal part of the L in Liberty... first the thickness... and also the relative distance to the ray on the right.
Maybe the variances I have mentioned are due to variances of the overlays.. but... An awesome coin but my spidey senses seem to say no go. But... as I always say, I've been wrong many time before.
several years ago a forum member, maybe Seanq, picked off a small group of US coins from a "Europe" eBay listing, either France/Italy/Spain/UK. included in the group he had spotted an 1870-S Dime that I think he had graded at AU/MS. forum member Boosibri has reported on a few occasions that he has found some nice US coins, I think in the UK and in Spain. for my own part I have taken to looking around at the European eBay sites for Exonumia and found some nice items for lower than usual prices, lower than what I could expect to pay here.
my question is this --- if these Europeans are so sharp, how is it that Americans are able to find things in their backyards on the cheap?? if these collectors aren't even able to locate US coins of quality at common, easily perused web sites how did they find this supposed Gem??
I accept that it may be legitimate but Ocham seems to be sharpening his razor as time passes.
Somewhere back in the 80's, before the Iron Curtain fell, I ran into a dealer that I knew at a coin show who was grinning from ear to ear. I asked him what was up and he said he had just sold a deal of large size U.S. $500 and $1000 bills, $30,000 face value, that he had found at a flea market in Czechoslovakia for something like 20 Kroners(?) each. The seller had just assumed that they were no longer money, and had tossed them in a u-pick box of other obsolete currency.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
It seems funny to me that this is getting all this attention. It's only 10K people! Somebody (actually 2) wanted it really bad for some reason. This isn't near as crazy as the guy who paid 30 some million for a watch because it belonged to Paul Newman!
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@lkeigwin said:
Keets asked for an overlay using a high grade example from Coinfacts. Here you go.
These things are never perfect due to all the aspects that must be aligned -- size, orientation, rotation, square im
Can someone please explain to an ole dumb dumb how this photo overlay is supposed to help? I wish it came with instructions.
Thanks
The photo overlay is supposed to show that the design elements do (or do not) overlap exactly. Frankly, it is indicative but not definitive. If it did NOT match, then it came from a different die. If it does match, then it could still be made from transfer dies or from a much better counterfeit.
perhaps you guys should contact Mr. Katz, the Auctioneer. He does speak English.
and maybe he could contact his buyer and let him know the confusion that exists about his coin.
Invite the buyer to the forum......
He might like that and respond...
@lkeigwin said:
Keets asked for an overlay using a high grade example from Coinfacts. Here you go.
These things are never perfect due to all the aspects that must be aligned -- size, orientation, rotation, square im
Can someone please explain to an ole dumb dumb how this photo overlay is supposed to help? I wish it came with instructions.
Thanks
The photo overlay is supposed to show that the design elements do (or do not) overlap exactly. Frankly, it is indicative but not definitive. If it did NOT match, then it came from a different die. If it does match, then it could still be made from transfer dies or from a much better counterfeit.
@lkeigwin said:
Keets asked for an overlay using a high grade example from Coinfacts. Here you go.
These things are never perfect due to all the aspects that must be aligned -- size, orientation, rotation, square im
Can someone please explain to an ole dumb dumb how this photo overlay is supposed to help? I wish it came with instructions.
Thanks
The photo overlay is supposed to show that the design elements do (or do not) overlap exactly. Frankly, it is indicative but not definitive. If it did NOT match, then it came from a different die. If it does match, then it could still be made from transfer dies or from a much better counterfeit.
and which are which?
...so to you it’s genuine then
I really wish it was, but I cannot figure out the revolving photos, too confusing. I have compared previously the stills and believed the coin was a fake. I still believe it is a fake but my mind is open to it being genuine. I want it to be genuine but it looks so weird.
...don’t let your eyes fool you then cause if you can’t tell which is which of the overlay photos than to your eyes, the coin is genuine...thats the point of doing an overlay, if there are noticeable differences between photos then there is a problem...if not then twins, that’s all
...and for the record (not like it matters but) I see some differences between overlay photos...but I have smoked 2 joints and eaten half a pound of Swedish Fish over the last hour...so back to the Good Life
@btcollects said:
This extraordinary result might not reflect an actual transaction. It could be a single individual with two bidding numbers, or some other funny business.
For what purpose? The coin wasn’t catalogued as anything out of the ordinary.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@YQQ said:
perhaps you guys should contact Mr. Katz, the Auctioneer. He does speak English.
and maybe he could contact his buyer and let him know the confusion that exists about his coin.
Invite the buyer to the forum......
He might like that and respond...
I'd say the chances of any cooperation in that regard is likely zero.
The best place to find info on this may be some foreign coin forum, as the sale occurred over there. There must be coin forums in Europe, and with a bit of Googling using a foreign language translator, you may find the answer to this puzzle.
@btcollects said:
This extraordinary result might not reflect an actual transaction. It could be a single individual with two bidding numbers, or some other funny business.
To what end? It was not listed as anything unusual.
@DoubleEagle59 said:
Golf season is around the corner, time to move on.
I can't stand that (golf) game......the ball never goes where I wanted it to go. I usually ended playing 1 or 2 fairways over....sometimes 3 if I got a good bounce!
yes there are forums in Europe. But I assure you the contents of most is not what you expect.
And, IMO, locating the owner and getting his Cooperation is the ONLY way to settle this. And as of now, the only way to find the owner is through the seller...unless the owner comes forward on his own.
Any back and forth , it is or it is not or it might be etc.....is useless and non conclusive !
I do know Katz and would, if the Forum membership agrees, contact him.
However, I also would need the cooperation of our host on this one, or at least a note saying they have no objection about doing so, as I do not wish to step on anyone's toes.
Not an expert on WLH'S but a lifetime quality control expert.
Look for incongruities or inconsistencies. My findings are as follows:
Right coin appears to be higher grade with better strike.
Sun on left coin is round right coin is oblong with flatter side near hem
Seam lines on left coin better definition
Folds of gown left coin more sweeping towards I versus right is lower and not sweeping
Obvious right arms
Rear shoe on left has very good definition versus flatter on right
GOD on left coin tapers toward D and is almost elongated
Left coin has much greater hair definition on cheek
Lines on right coin flatter despite being better definition
Breast on left coin has better definition despite arm being flatter in same quadrant
R HAS better definition on right coin despite hair and star definition being better on left coin
Compare these incongruities to other WLH'S in Mint State . Artistically speaking, when the images are started on a plaster by an artist or engraver, one starts with the principal image ( lady liberty ) and works outward to the borders. Usually, the interior items have greater detail versus those on the borders as the eye tends to focus centered and flattens as the eye shifts left or right. Additionally, an engraver would place the item at a slightly tipped upward plane in which to work . ( less strain on the arms and back) thus the pressure would be greater working from low to high or stomach to away, giving better definition to the base and slightly less definition to the outer points.
By the way Catbert Really impressive piece of work on the overlays.
Not making any conclusive statements just pointing out some points to compare with other coins.
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
@jesbroken said:
Check out the base of the rays. Different thicknesses.
Jim
@mapleman said:
Actually, IMO the Fonts and letter spacing are different IN GOD WE TRUST.
I think what people are seeing is actually the difference between an early die state and a later die state (the Czech coin being the earlier die state).
@jesbroken said:
Check out the base of the rays. Different thicknesses.
Jim
@mapleman said:
Actually, IMO the Fonts and letter spacing are different IN GOD WE TRUST.
I think what people are seeing is actually the difference between an early die state and a later die state (the Czech coin being the earlier die state).
Perhaps. I'll defer to Dan on this but I'll remain skeptical until authenticated by a TPG
10K is more than worthwhile stabbing imo.
Comments
Close, no cigar> @MaineJim said:
Check out the base of the rays. Different thicknesses.
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Could one of you technically competent people please do an overlay of IN GOD WE TRUST, lining up the right upright of the U?
Thx.
Actually, IMO the Fonts and letter spacing are different IN GOD WE TRUST.
In the interim
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
The above overlay pulls me toward the "genuine" side. The outstretched arm is what has always bothered me but now I'm thinking it could just be the way the light reflects off of it.
Smitten with DBLCs.
Thanks Catbert. I thought I saw a difference in the relationship between the D and the U, but this proves there is not.
The flatness in the outstretched arm does not seem right. I have seen like only on well circulated pieces. If I were conteplating purchase with no other information, I would say fake and pass even at a fraction of what this coin sold for. All in all, the coin just doesn't look ' right'. jmho!
It's raw
90% AG?
Any news on this coin?
No and I wouldn't expect any.
sort of like how people talk about playing the Lottery, you always hear about the winners but never about the losers.
possibly.
But you also have this coin bought in a foreign country by someone who may not wish to submit to a TPGS. A private coin in a private collection will not get any notoriety or fanfare unless the owner's ego desires it.
I accept that we are in different camps, you tend to believe(or want to believe) that the coin is genuine while I remain skeptical absent any more evidence than a not really reliable picture. I initially believed it to be some sort of copy, not a genuine coin, but as time has passed decided to wait for something else to happen that would swing me to one side or the other. strangely, the lack of anything happening has also landed us in different camps. to you it seems to be the result of someone wanting to keep the coin private, to me it tends to reinforce the belief that the coin isn't genuine and pride is at stake.
it shows an interesting view we each have of human nature, based I would guess on our own life experiences.
Actually, it is more interesting to me that you are ascribing thoughts and feelings to me that I do NOT possess.
I don't know or care whether the coin is genuine.
But the fact is NO ONE on this board knows whether or not it is genuine.
And NO ONE is going to be able to tell from a single auction photo.
And NO ONE is going to be able to conclude anything from lack of evidence which is not, itself, evidence
There still is a "raw world" out there. I know this is a slabbed world on this message board, but that is not representative of the world as a whole. That was a European coin auction and if the winner was a European who does not use TPGS, the coin will not resurface until it is resold.
So, frankly, I remain UNKNOWING of the authenticity of that coin. Admittedly. Others seem to want to assume that the absence of the coin in a pop report proves something.
I'd also point out that if the coin were a specimen strike of some kind, it is quite possible that PCGS or NGC would not know what to do with it, if they were even willing to recognize it. It could well be a long road to recognition, even if the coin had been submitted.
Wonder why the OP is now banned?
Latin American Collection
I'm, I'm not ascribing anything other than what you have posted, please excuse me if that's what you inferred. your posts have consistently "leaned" towards the coin being genuine in that your tendency is to question anyone who thinks it's a fake.
I apologize if I have interpreted things wrongly. trying to understand what someone thinks from an online post can be tricky, I would only remind you that it works both ways.
Can't we all just get along?
Coins and items such as this increase interest overall. I don't have a stake in it, but am enjoying the discussion. I do concur with Europeans still having a proclivity for NOT slabbing coins & if it went to a European collection that it might not come up for slabbing unless it is sold again.
I also think that many things are possible at the mint, especially 80, 90 or more years ago. Is there 100% security against "special" activities at all times and against all employees?
This coin would certainly bear being seen in hand by a panel of experts, even if not slabbed.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Catbert... awesome overlay. It would be hard to believe it is a fake; it is so superbly done if so. But I do see some noticeable variances in several areas; each of the feet, and the area under the leaves across from the T in LIBERTY; also the before mentioned 'flatness of the arm seems out of place. A couple of similar type areas on the reverse.
Also, check out the bottom horizontal part of the L in Liberty... first the thickness... and also the relative distance to the ray on the right.
Maybe the variances I have mentioned are due to variances of the overlays.. but... An awesome coin but my spidey senses seem to say no go. But... as I always say, I've been wrong many time before.
Should there be a poll?
RE: European collections and collectors.
several years ago a forum member, maybe Seanq, picked off a small group of US coins from a "Europe" eBay listing, either France/Italy/Spain/UK. included in the group he had spotted an 1870-S Dime that I think he had graded at AU/MS. forum member Boosibri has reported on a few occasions that he has found some nice US coins, I think in the UK and in Spain. for my own part I have taken to looking around at the European eBay sites for Exonumia and found some nice items for lower than usual prices, lower than what I could expect to pay here.
my question is this --- if these Europeans are so sharp, how is it that Americans are able to find things in their backyards on the cheap?? if these collectors aren't even able to locate US coins of quality at common, easily perused web sites how did they find this supposed Gem??
I accept that it may be legitimate but Ocham seems to be sharpening his razor as time passes.
Somewhere back in the 80's, before the Iron Curtain fell, I ran into a dealer that I knew at a coin show who was grinning from ear to ear. I asked him what was up and he said he had just sold a deal of large size U.S. $500 and $1000 bills, $30,000 face value, that he had found at a flea market in Czechoslovakia for something like 20 Kroners(?) each. The seller had just assumed that they were no longer money, and had tossed them in a u-pick box of other obsolete currency.
It seems funny to me that this is getting all this attention. It's only 10K people! Somebody (actually 2) wanted it really bad for some reason. This isn't near as crazy as the guy who paid 30 some million for a watch because it belonged to Paul Newman!
I still think it’s real
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I agree.
I think there's a little more to the story with this coin, but I think it's real.
I think its real too. We should start a poll.
The photo overlay is supposed to show that the design elements do (or do not) overlap exactly. Frankly, it is indicative but not definitive. If it did NOT match, then it came from a different die. If it does match, then it could still be made from transfer dies or from a much better counterfeit.
perhaps you guys should contact Mr. Katz, the Auctioneer. He does speak English.
and maybe he could contact his buyer and let him know the confusion that exists about his coin.
Invite the buyer to the forum......
He might like that and respond...
...so to you it’s genuine then
...don’t let your eyes fool you then cause if you can’t tell which is which of the overlay photos than to your eyes, the coin is genuine...thats the point of doing an overlay, if there are noticeable differences between photos then there is a problem...if not then twins, that’s all
...and for the record (not like it matters but) I see some differences between overlay photos...but I have smoked 2 joints and eaten half a pound of Swedish Fish over the last hour...so back to the Good Life
For what purpose? The coin wasn’t catalogued as anything out of the ordinary.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
I'd say the chances of any cooperation in that regard is likely zero.
The best place to find info on this may be some foreign coin forum, as the sale occurred over there. There must be coin forums in Europe, and with a bit of Googling using a foreign language translator, you may find the answer to this puzzle.
I bought a coin from Mr. Katz’s auctions last year and found him to be very helpful and communicative. You never know.
To what end? It was not listed as anything unusual.
Golf season is around the corner, time to move on.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
I can't stand that (golf) game......the ball never goes where I wanted it to go. I usually ended playing 1 or 2 fairways over....sometimes 3 if I got a good bounce!
yes there are forums in Europe. But I assure you the contents of most is not what you expect.
And, IMO, locating the owner and getting his Cooperation is the ONLY way to settle this. And as of now, the only way to find the owner is through the seller...unless the owner comes forward on his own.
Any back and forth , it is or it is not or it might be etc.....is useless and non conclusive !
I do know Katz and would, if the Forum membership agrees, contact him.
However, I also would need the cooperation of our host on this one, or at least a note saying they have no objection about doing so, as I do not wish to step on anyone's toes.
On and on this goes. Where it stops, I sure don't know.
Not that this is a bad thing.........but the frustrations posted here are very palpable.
Pete
Not an expert on WLH'S but a lifetime quality control expert.
Look for incongruities or inconsistencies. My findings are as follows:
Right coin appears to be higher grade with better strike.
Sun on left coin is round right coin is oblong with flatter side near hem
Seam lines on left coin better definition
Folds of gown left coin more sweeping towards I versus right is lower and not sweeping
Obvious right arms
Rear shoe on left has very good definition versus flatter on right
GOD on left coin tapers toward D and is almost elongated
Left coin has much greater hair definition on cheek
Lines on right coin flatter despite being better definition
Breast on left coin has better definition despite arm being flatter in same quadrant
R HAS better definition on right coin despite hair and star definition being better on left coin
Compare these incongruities to other WLH'S in Mint State . Artistically speaking, when the images are started on a plaster by an artist or engraver, one starts with the principal image ( lady liberty ) and works outward to the borders. Usually, the interior items have greater detail versus those on the borders as the eye tends to focus centered and flattens as the eye shifts left or right. Additionally, an engraver would place the item at a slightly tipped upward plane in which to work . ( less strain on the arms and back) thus the pressure would be greater working from low to high or stomach to away, giving better definition to the base and slightly less definition to the outer points.
By the way Catbert Really impressive piece of work on the overlays.
Not making any conclusive statements just pointing out some points to compare with other coins.
Bob Sr CEO Fieldtechs
>
I think what people are seeing is actually the difference between an early die state and a later die state (the Czech coin being the earlier die state).
Perhaps. I'll defer to Dan on this but I'll remain skeptical until authenticated by a TPG
10K is more than worthwhile stabbing imo.