@MrEureka said:
If the buyer of the coin reads sees this, please send me a PM. I may be able to help.
Spectrographic and physical analysis awaits this piece. I'd love some future micro-imagery on surface texture if the trail doesn't end in the Czech Republic.
Esthetically, I am very much in favor of the more elegant shoulders, neck and jaw-line of Ms. Liberty's profile as well as the shape of her cap and arrangement of her curls. Kudos to whomsoever
Andy. Is there any imagery on the 1918-S 5c?
Were there design anomalies/variations as on the 33-S or "simply" previously unencountered intricacy of detail?
"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
When I first saw the auction, it didn't even cross my mind that it could be a counterfeit. Why would anyone make such a nice counterfeit of a 1933-s, instead of any of the early dates? Why put it in a 5 euro reserve auction in Prague? The bidders could have decided it had a rub and bid a few hundred bucks. The circumstances seem inconsistent with a clever plan to sell a well made die struck counterfeit. It's a interesting conversation. I'm really curious what Andy would say to the buyer in a PM.
Call an auctioneer in a foreign country to ask if a US coin he sold is counterfeit. If he can even understand you, do you really think he is going to say "Yes"?
@MrEureka said:
Based in part on the impossibly well struck 1918-S nickel that I saw which came from Prague, and which came with other typical ones and a very believable back story, I am not ready to call this 33-S fake. It may very well be a special strike.
That would be a hell of a story! That coin does look different - does anyone have connections to the auction house to get some intel?
@CaptHenway said:
The more I look at it, the more I think it might be genuine. I can think of one plausible reason for a 1933-S to look like this. I am consulting with a few people about it.
For right now, no call one way or the other.
TD
Two very experienced experts in the thread think it might be genuine. This is exciting!
Keets asked for an overlay using a high grade example from Coinfacts. Here you go.
These things are never perfect due to all the aspects that must be aligned -- size, orientation, rotation, square images, etc. All sorts of challenges. But maybe this helps.
Lance.
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
My initial reaction was...probably counterfeit. However based on the evidence and illustrations presented, I now think the coin is likely genuine.
I have a feeling those bidders have a detailed definitive knowledge about the history of this coin, such as being a historical presentation piece, etc.
Might the price realized be in Czech currency (less than 5 US cents per koruna)? Any rate, the close-ups look a little off to me, but I'd prefer to have the coin in hand to make a definitive statement. In the last 10 years, the Chinese have counterfeited almost EVERY U.S. 20th century silver coin, sometimes with amazing skill. This may not be one, but if it turns out that it is, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
The lines around the sun change. One looks somewhat oval and then goes back to spherical. The bottom parts of the rays also change. I'm leaning towards its an authentic coin that has been altered.
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it seems to have detail and design elements which look correct, even detail which seems "right" but isn't on other high grade MS66-67 coins. then there is Miss Liberty's right arm: it appears flat and weakly struck even though it is surrounded by stars on the flag which seem hammered. these are things which I don't think are artifacts of lighting or the online picture, they are really what is there.
I had hoped an overlay might show some anomaly that shouldn't be present but it didn't.
other members are more acutely aware then me of the quality of the Chinese counterfeits. I know that some are the right size/weight/alloy and the dies to strike them have be made from real coins. in at least one instance that I know of the "copy" was quite well done of a Morgan Dollar, except that they mated an obverse with a reverse from a different year and someone here spotted it.
If anybody gets this in hand, please do a reeding count.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@MarcEmory said:
Might the price realized be in Czech currency (less than 5 US cents per koruna)? Any rate, the close-ups look a little off to me, but I'd prefer to have the coin in hand to make a definitive statement. In the last 10 years, the Chinese have counterfeited almost EVERY U.S. 20th century silver coin, sometimes with amazing skill. This may not be one, but if it turns out that it is, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
it seems to have detail and design elements which look correct, even detail which seems "right" but isn't on other high grade MS66-67 coins. then there is Miss Liberty's right arm: it appears flat and weakly struck even though it is surrounded by stars on the flag which seem hammered. these are things which I don't think are artifacts of lighting or the online picture, they are really what is there.
I had hoped an overlay might show some anomaly that shouldn't be present but it didn't.
other members are more acutely aware then me of the quality of the Chinese counterfeits. I know that some are the right size/weight/alloy and the dies to strike them have be made from real coins. in at least one instance that I know of the "copy" was quite well done of a Morgan Dollar, except that they mated an obverse with a reverse from a different year and someone here spotted it.
Look at the AU coin I pictured that is similar in color to the OP coin. The arm there also looks flat.
I must say, this is my favorite discussion of the year so far. Who doesn’t love a good mystery! People whose opinions I respect very much are firmly in both camps. I hope we learn more soon.
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
Can't figure this one out, unless some online bidders got this lot confused with some other rare coin lot?
Would be interesting to know if Katz Auction actually gets paid for this or not? Frankly, i doubt it.
That's baseless speculation. There are TWO bidders for that coin. It is the most detailed 33-S I've ever seen. I see no reason to speculate that it is either an error or that Katz wouldn't get paid.
Can't figure this one out, unless some online bidders got this lot confused with some other rare coin lot?
Would be interesting to know if Katz Auction actually gets paid for this or not? Frankly, i doubt it.
That's baseless speculation. There are TWO bidders for that coin. It is the most detailed 33-S I've ever seen. I see no reason to speculate that it is either an error or that Katz wouldn't get paid.
It's not uncommon for bidders to have buyers remorse, for whatever reason, over paying too much at an auction and not honoring their bid.
You should keep an eye on future Katz Auctions if you desire this coin. I wouldn't be surprised if this coin gets listed again for auction. Maybe you can buy it for under $100, and send it to PCGS and see what happens.
Can't figure this one out, unless some online bidders got this lot confused with some other rare coin lot?
Would be interesting to know if Katz Auction actually gets paid for this or not? Frankly, i doubt it.
That's baseless speculation. There are TWO bidders for that coin. It is the most detailed 33-S I've ever seen. I see no reason to speculate that it is either an error or that Katz wouldn't get paid.
It's not uncommon for bidders to have buyers remorse, for whatever reason, over paying too much at an auction and not honoring their bid.
You should keep an eye on future Katz Auctions if you desire this coin. I wouldn't be surprised if this coin gets listed again for auction. Maybe you can buy it for under $100, and send it to PCGS and see what happens.
To your point the five or so coins on the other side of the 33-S lot sold for well under a 100US in most cases. I still don’t think it’s a counterfeit
Mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
@stevek said:
over paying too much at an auction and not honoring their bid.
You should keep an eye on future Katz Auctions if you desire this coin. I wouldn't be surprised if this coin gets listed again for auction. Maybe you can buy it for under $100, and send it to PCGS and see what happens.
To your point the five or so coins on the other side of the 33-S lot sold for well under a 100US in most cases. I still don’t think it’s a counterfeit
Mark
I agree. The rest of the auction looked pretty normal and even reasonable. There are no clear indicators (to me) that there are any die characteristics that scream counterfeit. Pictures can be deceiving as to color, luster and even the shape of elements as they are flat images that may be shaded or angled in the photo.
I wouldn't have paid $10k for it, mind you. It really would need to be a 67 or 68, but it is a tremendously sharp strike. I've never seen so much definition on the head and shoes of a Walker before.
If you believe the sun and rays and L in Liberty are the keys to determining that the OP coin is fake then you can take this opportunity to explain why.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Anyone else notice in the overlay images, the ding marks on the leg are present in all images in the exact same spot?
that would be explained by those marks being on the OP coin. the other images are then "laid" on top of that image as a transparency to be able to match up the design elements.
Comments
Spectrographic and physical analysis awaits this piece. I'd love some future micro-imagery on surface texture if the trail doesn't end in the Czech Republic.
Esthetically, I am very much in favor of the more elegant shoulders, neck and jaw-line of Ms. Liberty's profile as well as the shape of her cap and arrangement of her curls.
Kudos to whomsoever 
Andy. Is there any imagery on the 1918-S 5c?
Were there design anomalies/variations as on the 33-S or "simply" previously unencountered intricacy of detail?
Even if it is genuine, does anyone really believe it is MS66+? That is where it would have to grade to just break even.
Look at this coin. It is lower grade but similar in color. It's in a PCGS AU details holder.
When I first saw the auction, it didn't even cross my mind that it could be a counterfeit. Why would anyone make such a nice counterfeit of a 1933-s, instead of any of the early dates? Why put it in a 5 euro reserve auction in Prague? The bidders could have decided it had a rub and bid a few hundred bucks. The circumstances seem inconsistent with a clever plan to sell a well made die struck counterfeit. It's a interesting conversation. I'm really curious what Andy would say to the buyer in a PM.
I just checked GS to see if lighting could help and found the recent best..
Counterfeit from fake dies. But --- we are all speculating since only the seller (and possibly the buyer) have seen the "coin."
Yes Roger, it would be super if someone came forward, otherwise all we are doing is speculating - and re-speculating.
Pete
Keets... A reasonable and adequate investigation to determine whether this coin is genuine really cannot be completed without the coin.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Guessing? It's been easily determined a counterfeit. Don't see any guessing back and forth about it.
Call an auctioneer in a foreign country to ask if a US coin he sold is counterfeit. If he can even understand you, do you really think he is going to say "Yes"?
That would be a hell of a story! That coin does look different - does anyone have connections to the auction house to get some intel?
Two very experienced experts in the thread think it might be genuine. This is exciting!
The buyer must think it is a 7 and/or a special strike.
Keets asked for an overlay using a high grade example from Coinfacts. Here you go.
These things are never perfect due to all the aspects that must be aligned -- size, orientation, rotation, square images, etc. All sorts of challenges. But maybe this helps.
Lance.
very nice Ikeigwin
From what I’ve seen, it seems like:
The Soviet Union counterfeited dimes in the 1930's. Perhaps they also counterfeited half dollars as well.
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/gold/liberty-head-2-1-gold-major-sets/liberty-head-2-1-gold-basic-set-circulation-strikes-1840-1907-cac/alltimeset/268163
I remain unconvinced that it’s a counterfeit
m
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
if that was not made at the mint, the counterfeiters had mint dies
There are a couple depressions in the top flag folds between B and E in LIBERTY that repeat through every coin.
It also looks like the same polish lines in the right obverse field close to the flag folds also repeat.
Darn.....................I think it's genuine.
Pete
Is the picture juiced?
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
There is so much depth in that coin... reminds me of the broken sword Peace dollar reverse D. Carr got ahold of.
It is definitely an oddity. This one needs to be seen in person to make the call. Could be real, could be real and messed with, could be fake.
The overlay pictures start to push me toward the legitimate direction for this coin....
Well, just Love coins, period.
My initial reaction was...probably counterfeit. However based on the evidence and illustrations presented, I now think the coin is likely genuine.
I have a feeling those bidders have a detailed definitive knowledge about the history of this coin, such as being a historical presentation piece, etc.
Spent some time looking. Lots of time. What a great comparison overlay, Ikergwin.
I'm late for breakfast. AU58.
Might the price realized be in Czech currency (less than 5 US cents per koruna)? Any rate, the close-ups look a little off to me, but I'd prefer to have the coin in hand to make a definitive statement. In the last 10 years, the Chinese have counterfeited almost EVERY U.S. 20th century silver coin, sometimes with amazing skill. This may not be one, but if it turns out that it is, it wouldn't surprise me in the least.
Welcome, Marc
The lines around the sun change. One looks somewhat oval and then goes back to spherical. The bottom parts of the rays also change. I'm leaning towards its an authentic coin that has been altered.
"A dog breaks your heart only one time and that is when they pass on". Unknown
the coin is an enigma.
it seems to have detail and design elements which look correct, even detail which seems "right" but isn't on other high grade MS66-67 coins. then there is Miss Liberty's right arm: it appears flat and weakly struck even though it is surrounded by stars on the flag which seem hammered. these are things which I don't think are artifacts of lighting or the online picture, they are really what is there.
I had hoped an overlay might show some anomaly that shouldn't be present but it didn't.
other members are more acutely aware then me of the quality of the Chinese counterfeits. I know that some are the right size/weight/alloy and the dies to strike them have be made from real coins. in at least one instance that I know of the "copy" was quite well done of a Morgan Dollar, except that they mated an obverse with a reverse from a different year and someone here spotted it.
If anybody gets this in hand, please do a reeding count.
NO, it's US$s
Looks like a fake to me.
Look at the AU coin I pictured that is similar in color to the OP coin. The arm there also looks flat.
I would have a better chance believing this was special made or a pattern piece. Other than that, something looks off to me as a circulated Walker.
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I must say, this is my favorite discussion of the year so far. Who doesn’t love a good mystery! People whose opinions I respect very much are firmly in both camps. I hope we learn more soon.
Katz auction info, before the auction:
No notations at all about the coin being a "special presentation piece" or whatever, except for the words "key date"
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=sale&sid=2418&cid=64227
Specific auction of the coin:
https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=2418&lot=1015
Sales page:
https://katzauction.com/lots/view/1-PGPWA/united-states-12-dollar-1933-s
Can't figure this one out, unless some online bidders got this lot confused with some other rare coin lot?
Would be interesting to know if Katz Auction actually gets paid for this or not? Frankly, i doubt it.
That's baseless speculation. There are TWO bidders for that coin. It is the most detailed 33-S I've ever seen. I see no reason to speculate that it is either an error or that Katz wouldn't get paid.
Look at the AU coin I pictured that is similar in color to the OP coin. The arm there also looks flat.
Interesting discussion.
DPOTD-3
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Don
And so the story continues ...
BHNC #203
It's not uncommon for bidders to have buyers remorse, for whatever reason, over paying too much at an auction and not honoring their bid.
You should keep an eye on future Katz Auctions if you desire this coin. I wouldn't be surprised if this coin gets listed again for auction. Maybe you can buy it for under $100, and send it to PCGS and see what happens.
To your point the five or so coins on the other side of the 33-S lot sold for well under a 100US in most cases. I still don’t think it’s a counterfeit
Mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I agree. The rest of the auction looked pretty normal and even reasonable. There are no clear indicators (to me) that there are any die characteristics that scream counterfeit. Pictures can be deceiving as to color, luster and even the shape of elements as they are flat images that may be shaded or angled in the photo.
I wouldn't have paid $10k for it, mind you. It really would need to be a 67 or 68, but it is a tremendously sharp strike. I've never seen so much definition on the head and shoes of a Walker before.
Anyone else notice in the overlay images, the ding marks on the leg are present in all images in the exact same spot?
Afford...
If you believe the sun and rays and L in Liberty are the keys to determining that the OP coin is fake then you can take this opportunity to explain why.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Anyone else notice in the overlay images, the ding marks on the leg are present in all images in the exact same spot?
that would be explained by those marks being on the OP coin. the other images are then "laid" on top of that image as a transparency to be able to match up the design elements.
@Vonkraut74 said "Anyone else notice in the overlay images, the ding marks on the leg are present in all images in the exact same spot?"
Yes, the overlay images are all of the same coin.