Not sure what the Mint budget looked like for 1933, but it is probable that it was reduced because of the Depression. Sinnock's work easily could have been out of necessity. And for this reason, Sinnock may not have seen the need or had the foresight to keep one. It would Interesting to see the monthly production numbers for the 1933-s... And whether the greater Production transpired toward the end of year...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@YQQ said:
Very interesting and enlightening that many of you, who advocate often that grading is subjective, make such positive statements without having the item in hand.
I have no experience with US coins. However, i would have a lot of reservations without coin in hand!
Has anyone of you tried, to compare, to find an equal Fake from someone who might "just" have one?
I am not defending the yea or no sayers here. Just trying to be fair and objective.
here is an section of the reply I received from mark katz:
"I've got this coin in a coin lot (album or box with different coins in it) at a Heritage Europe.
Btw, they often miss good staff in dealer lots, f.e. I've found nice 20$ gold liberty in a 30€ can with kilo circulation coins"
I'm not sure why anyone thinks the auctioneer needs to explain anything about his auction.
Two or more people bid. The hammer came down. The lot was sold. The auctioneer need not justify the hammer price to us. The bidders need not justify their bids to the auctioneer or most certainly to us.
I am just thinking about the bidders, not just the final 2, on a 5 euro reserve auction far from the "motherland" of the coin, the proverbial nowheresville and finding a hidden treasure.
When I was stationed in Korea, I happened to see a Korean woman trying to make change for a large American bill, and she had in her stash, a silver certificate. Koreans paid a premium for CRISP $50 and $100's. I put the word out that I would pay even up for special old US bills, and pried loose many silver certificates, Hawaii notes, 1 or 2 gold notes and a North Africa note.
When I was stationed in Germany, I struck up friendships with some of the French paratroopers (I was a paratrooper also) and one of them mentioned a relative who was looking to dispose of some old war relics, and one of them was an original US M1 carbine, paratrooper model, with the 101st emblem, made by Singer (Sewing machine). He could not sell it in France, but I got clearance to buy it for export back to the US. I gave him what he asked for it, which was a very good deal, and he was "happy" it had been "reunited" with a US paratrooper.
My parents lived in England during a time when MANY old estates were being broken up, and the "style" in England was new and modern, not old and, well, old. They prowled the "way out in the country" estate auctions, and my dad made a small fortune buying US military stuff, primarily from the Revolutionary War and War of 1812, undoubtedly battlefield pick ups. A $2 US Army Brass powder flask sold for $500+ in this country. My mom bought a lot of US antiques, pre Civil War. English Antiques in England were a glut and unwanted. US antiques in rural England were sold for basically nothing so they did not have to pay the trash men to take them away.
Take something out of it's world and it sometimes can go pretty cheap.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm not sure why anyone thinks the auctioneer needs to explain anything about his auction.
Two or more people bid. The hammer came down. The lot was sold. The auctioneer need not justify the hammer price to us. The bidders need not justify their bids to the auctioneer or most certainly to us.
you are correct. However, should it turn out that the item is a fake, as some of you are convinced it is and others are convinced it is not, the auctioneer has a serious responsibility (EU law). yes, basically it is none of our business. But the numismatic community does have a certain interest in a transaction like that.
**koincat, **
you have absolutely beautiful half dollar there.
my question is this: WHY did you post it? is it a fake? ( no offense meant). I simply do not know.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm not sure why anyone thinks the auctioneer needs to explain anything about his auction.
Two or more people bid. The hammer came down. The lot was sold. The auctioneer need not justify the hammer price to us. The bidders need not justify their bids to the auctioneer or most certainly to us.
you are correct. However, should it turn out that the item is a fake, as some of you are convinced it is and others are convinced it is not, the auctioneer has a serious responsibility (EU law). yes, basically it is none of our business. But the numismatic community does have a certain interest in a transaction like that.
Some of these people are convinced that half of all coins are fake based on the pictures alone. If the auctioneer has to respond to every crusty old curmudgeon on these boards, he's going to be a very busy man.
The numismatic community has an "interest", just no rights here. IMHO
The 1933-s I posted is from CoinWorld...not my coin. Some people may think images will help with the discussion even though I do not. My position in this has remained unchanged...a basic in hand review of the OP coin is needed before one can assert it is counterfeit. And I remain unconvinced that the OP coin is counterfeit based on the minimal information we have. Those that have asserted it is counterfeit simply have not met their burden to establish that through a satisfactory and reasonable investigation.
What seems to be driving this threat is (1) Money-$10,000; (2) A raw coin; and (3) An overseas auction. The drama that has sparked collector interest seems to be more on the process of how all of this could happen without a TPG coin... Especially overseas. And there clearly is a subjective belief that resonates throughout this thread of what is and is not possible in the world of numismatics. This thread reads as if there are collectors that are hoping this coin is counterfeit merely based on how it entered the market which is unfortunate.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
@coinkat said:
The 1933-s I posted is from CoinWorld...not my coin. Some people may think images will help with the discussion even though I do not. My position in this has remained unchanged...a basic in hand review of the OP coin is needed before one can assert it is counterfeit. And I remain unconvinced that the OP coin is counterfeit based on the minimal information we have. Those that have asserted it is counterfeit simply have not met their burden to establish that through a satisfactory and reasonable investigation.
What seems to be driving this threat is (1) Money-$10,000; (2) A raw coin; and (3) An overseas auction. The drama that has sparked collector interest seems to be more on the process of how all of this could happen without a TPG coin... Especially overseas. And there clearly is a subjective belief that resonates throughout this thread of what is and is not possible in the world of numismatics. This thread reads as if there are collectors that are hoping this coin is counterfeit merely based on how it entered the market which is unfortunate.
Well said. I am not at all surprised by the number of experts who can diagnose counterfeits with their eyes, ears and mind closed. I'm a little surprised, and mostly disappointed, at the people that are using the nationality of the auction company as evidence of anything. This was not an eBay listing from someone with 3 feedbacks. It was a legitimate auction from a legitimate auction house. If this were Stack's or Heritage, people might have still felt that the money was too high, but I doubt anyone would have suggested it were counterfeit.
....if authenticated, this would be akin to a 'discovery piece' for the entire Walking Liberty series, that's how important this particular coin has become, a never before seen example. Try to dismiss all of that on a chat board.
See my comment in the "Long Beach Miracle" thread.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm currently holding a Morgan silver dollar in my hands. Could you please tell me the grade?
Clearly it's a 63. Good luster, typical bag marks on the cheek and obverse fields. A little weakness in the hair and eagles breast feathers, generally average strike. The reverse would go 65 easy but we know that's the way they always come. There is a slight chance that little issue on the rim could details it though. Don't waste your money submitting it.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm currently holding a Morgan silver dollar in my hands. Could you please tell me the grade?
Clearly it's a 63. Good luster, typical bag marks on the cheek and obverse fields. A little weakness in the hair and eagles breast feathers, generally average strike. The reverse would go 65 easy but we know that's the way they always come. There is a slight chance that little issue on the rim could details it though. Don't waste your money submitting it.
Oh, soooo close. It's an XF with a giant rim ding.
@jmlanzaf said:
I'm currently holding a Morgan silver dollar in my hands. Could you please tell me the grade?
Clearly it's a 63. Good luster, typical bag marks on the cheek and obverse fields. A little weakness in the hair and eagles breast feathers, generally average strike. The reverse would go 65 easy but we know that's the way they always come. There is a slight chance that little issue on the rim could details it though. Don't waste your money submitting it.
If the Morgan dollar was picked out of a very large group at random, the odds are very high that your description would be spot on.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@Washingtoniana said:
You're thinking of somewhere else, Afford. When I think of the Czech Republic (Prague), I think beautiful women, great food, smart, friendly and healthy people, clean and safe streets. The average quality of life is excellent. There's nothing sketchy about it.
I don't have anything to add about the coin in question, but any potential attempt to indict the Czechs as a whole for being unscrupulous would of course be unfounded. Whether or not a specific auction house properly represented a specific coin, the CR, and Prague in particular, has a long tradition in the arts and antiquities, etc.
Still, I thought @Washingtoniana 's perspective was just a bit overly optimistic, at least for the era when I visited twice about 15 years or so ago. The first time I went, a pair of middle-aged gypsy pickpockets got my wallet, and when I visited a second time I was more savvy and I spotted a team of them working the streetcar I was on.
And left off the list was the beer - Czech beer is excellent, and I mean excellent by European standards, not U.S. Bud/Miller/Schlitz standards.
And the coins were nice, too. Nice designs and production standards.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@RogerB said:
Nothing has changed -- it remains a fake.
I am unaware that this was ever proven either way.
Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
@RogerB said:
Nothing has changed -- it remains a fake.
How can a fake be better than an original?
What if...an expert engraver was trying out his skills on a set of phony but good dies, you know, re-engraving the existing details making an extraordinary coin out of an extraordinary planchet and introducing said coin into the market and then perhaps into someone's plastic? That would be a grand slam to have in your resume.
@RogerB said:
Nothing has changed -- it remains a fake.
How can a fake be better than an original?
What if...an expert engraver was trying out his skills on a set of phony but good dies, you know, re-engraving the existing details making an extraordinary coin out of an extraordinary planchet and introducing said coin into the market and then perhaps into someone's plastic? That would be a grand slam to have in your resume.
4sure - but if the engraver made an enhanced set of dies, would they only make 1 coin?
@RogerB said:
Nothing has changed -- it remains a fake.
How can a fake be better than an original?
What if...an expert engraver was trying out his skills on a set of phony but good dies, you know, re-engraving the existing details making an extraordinary coin out of an extraordinary planchet and introducing said coin into the market and then perhaps into someone's plastic? That would be a grand slam to have in your resume.
4sure - but if the engraver made an enhanced set of dies, would they only make 1 coin?
I'm thinking there were much, much bigger baits to catch bigger fish.
@davewesen said:
I have found with lighting, shadows and pixilation caused by camera and what I am viewing with, what I think is something sometimes is not. With Mainejim's nice side by side, I think some of the sun rays are wider on the high luster coin. I also see the flat right arm and lack of up and down stripes on the sleeve of that arm of the dull one.
If you compare the reeding visible in the images, the slight difference in the angles at which the coins were imaged is obvious, and the difference in the shadowing of some details makes more sense.
Edited to say that the placement of the light source is probably a bigger factor in the shadowing, so never mind.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Daniel Carr's fantasy walkers look much better than this 1933-S walker. Furthermore, win the auction?
What was the original description of this 1933-S walker?
@logger7 said:
The buyer was too embarrassed to admit he took the bait...
What “bait” ? The coin didn’t receive any fanfare in its description. And yet, it appears that the winning bidder and at least one under-bidder felt that the coin was genuine and worthy of a very high grade and/or that it was specially made.
Edited to add: Based on the images that were posted, the coin looks genuine to me and exceptionally well struck, even for a 1933-S.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
@logger7 said:
The buyer was too embarrassed to admit he took the bait...
What “bait” ? The coin didn’t receive any fanfare in its description. And yet, it appears that the winning bidder and at least one under-bidder felt that the coin was genuine and worthy of a very high grade and/or that it was specially made.
Edited to add: Based on the images that were posted, the coin looks genuine to me and exceptionally well struck, even for a 1933-S.
That still is my opinion as well
mark
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
I think we ALL agree it does look "different" than the run of Walkers from 1917 through 1947. That much isn't in question.
So rather than comparing it to another 1933s, (or 1942's for that matter), the REAL question is whether it is an actual US Mint product. If they specially prepared a die, and specially struck a coin, (for whatever reason), there may well be differences in the minute details of the design resulting form the die preparation, striking pressure, surface finish imparted....whatever.
The difficult thing, for us AND a proper authenticator, is matching this coin with some actual purpose for it being made. If you can't do that, then a coin that "looks different" may end up being called "counterfeit" by default. A really beautiful counterfeit, or a completely authentic, but undocumented, oddity will end up in the same bucket!
Who is the buyer??
maybe Mark, the auctioneer should be contacted, asking him to ask the buyer to have it certified by our host.
then the buyer joins this forum and posts the result. anonymously.
certainly there are exceptions, but logically if this is a special strike/issue of some kind and at least two bidders were wise enough to discern as much, it would be prudent to have it verified. after that there would most likely be some sort of publicity. less likely is the above scenario with the buyer locking the coin away. in either case there would always be at least one other person(and quite likely more) who knew of the coin.
Comments
Not sure what the Mint budget looked like for 1933, but it is probable that it was reduced because of the Depression. Sinnock's work easily could have been out of necessity. And for this reason, Sinnock may not have seen the need or had the foresight to keep one. It would Interesting to see the monthly production numbers for the 1933-s... And whether the greater Production transpired toward the end of year...
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
THIS! THIS! THIS!
I'm not sure why anyone thinks the auctioneer needs to explain anything about his auction.
Two or more people bid. The hammer came down. The lot was sold. The auctioneer need not justify the hammer price to us. The bidders need not justify their bids to the auctioneer or most certainly to us.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Thought this image could be of interest.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
I am just thinking about the bidders, not just the final 2, on a 5 euro reserve auction far from the "motherland" of the coin, the proverbial nowheresville and finding a hidden treasure.
When I was stationed in Korea, I happened to see a Korean woman trying to make change for a large American bill, and she had in her stash, a silver certificate. Koreans paid a premium for CRISP $50 and $100's. I put the word out that I would pay even up for special old US bills, and pried loose many silver certificates, Hawaii notes, 1 or 2 gold notes and a North Africa note.
When I was stationed in Germany, I struck up friendships with some of the French paratroopers (I was a paratrooper also) and one of them mentioned a relative who was looking to dispose of some old war relics, and one of them was an original US M1 carbine, paratrooper model, with the 101st emblem, made by Singer (Sewing machine). He could not sell it in France, but I got clearance to buy it for export back to the US. I gave him what he asked for it, which was a very good deal, and he was "happy" it had been "reunited" with a US paratrooper.
My parents lived in England during a time when MANY old estates were being broken up, and the "style" in England was new and modern, not old and, well, old. They prowled the "way out in the country" estate auctions, and my dad made a small fortune buying US military stuff, primarily from the Revolutionary War and War of 1812, undoubtedly battlefield pick ups. A $2 US Army Brass powder flask sold for $500+ in this country. My mom bought a lot of US antiques, pre Civil War. English Antiques in England were a glut and unwanted. US antiques in rural England were sold for basically nothing so they did not have to pay the trash men to take them away.
Take something out of it's world and it sometimes can go pretty cheap.
you are correct. However, should it turn out that the item is a fake, as some of you are convinced it is and others are convinced it is not, the auctioneer has a serious responsibility (EU law). yes, basically it is none of our business. But the numismatic community does have a certain interest in a transaction like that.
**koincat, **
you have absolutely beautiful half dollar there.
my question is this: WHY did you post it? is it a fake? ( no offense meant). I simply do not know.
Everyone loves a mystery!
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
Some of these people are convinced that half of all coins are fake based on the pictures alone. If the auctioneer has to respond to every crusty old curmudgeon on these boards, he's going to be a very busy man.
The numismatic community has an "interest", just no rights here. IMHO
The 1933-s I posted is from CoinWorld...not my coin. Some people may think images will help with the discussion even though I do not. My position in this has remained unchanged...a basic in hand review of the OP coin is needed before one can assert it is counterfeit. And I remain unconvinced that the OP coin is counterfeit based on the minimal information we have. Those that have asserted it is counterfeit simply have not met their burden to establish that through a satisfactory and reasonable investigation.
What seems to be driving this threat is (1) Money-$10,000; (2) A raw coin; and (3) An overseas auction. The drama that has sparked collector interest seems to be more on the process of how all of this could happen without a TPG coin... Especially overseas. And there clearly is a subjective belief that resonates throughout this thread of what is and is not possible in the world of numismatics. This thread reads as if there are collectors that are hoping this coin is counterfeit merely based on how it entered the market which is unfortunate.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Well said. I am not at all surprised by the number of experts who can diagnose counterfeits with their eyes, ears and mind closed. I'm a little surprised, and mostly disappointed, at the people that are using the nationality of the auction company as evidence of anything. This was not an eBay listing from someone with 3 feedbacks. It was a legitimate auction from a legitimate auction house. If this were Stack's or Heritage, people might have still felt that the money was too high, but I doubt anyone would have suggested it were counterfeit.
....if authenticated, this would be akin to a 'discovery piece' for the entire Walking Liberty series, that's how important this particular coin has become, a never before seen example. Try to dismiss all of that on a chat board.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
See my comment in the "Long Beach Miracle" thread.
Clearly it's a 63. Good luster, typical bag marks on the cheek and obverse fields. A little weakness in the hair and eagles breast feathers, generally average strike. The reverse would go 65 easy but we know that's the way they always come. There is a slight chance that little issue on the rim could details it though. Don't waste your money submitting it.
Collector, occasional seller
Oh, soooo close. It's an XF with a giant rim ding.
If the Morgan dollar was picked out of a very large group at random, the odds are very high that your description would be spot on.
Bump. Any new updates on this?
Was wondering about that myself the other day.
Eventually, It will get slabbed as a specimen strike.
I don't have anything to add about the coin in question, but any potential attempt to indict the Czechs as a whole for being unscrupulous would of course be unfounded. Whether or not a specific auction house properly represented a specific coin, the CR, and Prague in particular, has a long tradition in the arts and antiquities, etc.
Still, I thought @Washingtoniana 's perspective was just a bit overly optimistic, at least for the era when I visited twice about 15 years or so ago. The first time I went, a pair of middle-aged gypsy pickpockets got my wallet, and when I visited a second time I was more savvy and I spotted a team of them working the streetcar I was on.
And left off the list was the beer - Czech beer is excellent, and I mean excellent by European standards, not U.S. Bud/Miller/Schlitz standards.
And the coins were nice, too. Nice designs and production standards.
Inquiring minds want to know.
Nothing has changed -- it remains a fake.
Bump for the curious
Good thinking, my dear Captain.
Pete
I am unaware that this was ever proven either way.
How can a fake be better than an original?
What if...an expert engraver was trying out his skills on a set of phony but good dies, you know, re-engraving the existing details making an extraordinary coin out of an extraordinary planchet and introducing said coin into the market and then perhaps into someone's plastic? That would be a grand slam to have in your resume.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
4sure - but if the engraver made an enhanced set of dies, would they only make 1 coin?
I'm thinking there were much, much bigger baits to catch bigger fish.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
If you compare the reeding visible in the images, the slight difference in the angles at which the coins were imaged is obvious, and the difference in the shadowing of some details makes more sense.
Edited to say that the placement of the light source is probably a bigger factor in the shadowing, so never mind.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Daniel Carr's fantasy walkers look much better than this 1933-S walker. Furthermore, win the auction?
What was the original description of this 1933-S walker?
I vote-completely fake.
The buyer was too embarrassed to admit he took the bait...
Certain folks that missed this may want to review the original thread
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
What “bait” ? The coin didn’t receive any fanfare in its description. And yet, it appears that the winning bidder and at least one under-bidder felt that the coin was genuine and worthy of a very high grade and/or that it was specially made.
Edited to add: Based on the images that were posted, the coin looks genuine to me and exceptionally well struck, even for a 1933-S.
Mark Feld* of Heritage Auctions*Unless otherwise noted, my posts here represent my personal opinions.
That still is my opinion as well
mark
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
The more I look at it using the comparison photo, the more obvious is its fakeness.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
If ever a coin needed to be submitted to our host to verify its authenticity it is this piece.
“I may not believe in myself but I believe in what I’m doing” ~Jimmy Page~
My Full Walker Registry Set (1916-1947)
https://www.ngccoin.com/registry/competitive-sets/16292/
I think we ALL agree it does look "different" than the run of Walkers from 1917 through 1947. That much isn't in question.
So rather than comparing it to another 1933s, (or 1942's for that matter), the REAL question is whether it is an actual US Mint product. If they specially prepared a die, and specially struck a coin, (for whatever reason), there may well be differences in the minute details of the design resulting form the die preparation, striking pressure, surface finish imparted....whatever.
The difficult thing, for us AND a proper authenticator, is matching this coin with some actual purpose for it being made. If you can't do that, then a coin that "looks different" may end up being called "counterfeit" by default. A really beautiful counterfeit, or a completely authentic, but undocumented, oddity will end up in the same bucket!
The sun is a different shape. Round on the piece in question, not round on the known genuine.
Width of the rays is different.
I'm going with Roger B.'s opinion on this one.
Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds.-Albert Einstein
Subbd
Perhaps a 'dream team' of Walker experts. That would be interesting to say the least.
Too bad Coinfacts imaging is dead.
It might have shown up in the images one day.
Latin American Collection
If it is graded and imaged, you will be able to see the images via the cert lookup.
Who is the buyer??
maybe Mark, the auctioneer should be contacted, asking him to ask the buyer to have it certified by our host.
then the buyer joins this forum and posts the result. anonymously.
Provided one could guess the cert number?
Latin American Collection
certainly there are exceptions, but logically if this is a special strike/issue of some kind and at least two bidders were wise enough to discern as much, it would be prudent to have it verified. after that there would most likely be some sort of publicity. less likely is the above scenario with the buyer locking the coin away. in either case there would always be at least one other person(and quite likely more) who knew of the coin.