@MisterGhost said:
I have a feeling that my penny is going to be worth some money.
Actually, it is going to cost you way more than it's worth since these types of coins show up all the time and always elicit the exact same responses. Glue.
The coin was definitely NOT minted that way since "Mirrored lettering" exists on the die to impart normal lettering on the coin at striking time.
Your coin definitely has mirrored lettering and as such represents post minting damage of some sort. Whether it's a vice job or a glue job is unimportant. What is important is that it is not an "authentic" US Mint Error since it is physically impossible to create that result during the minting process.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
@Stooge said:
Now if you want to see an incredible cent error, well here is one I seen at @FredWeinberg table a couple of yrs ago. BTW, this one definitely doesn't have glue!
How many cents were thought to be in the group (or how much did it weigh)?
Numismatist Ordinaire See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
The 1979-D 'Cluster' shown was part of
a deal I bought about 7 years ago.
In it were 5 1979-D Cent clusters -
Three of them weighed 59 grams, 62.4 grams, and 65 grams.
By weight only they had: 19+ planchets, 20+ planchets, and 21+ planchets.
(I say by weight only because some of the coins were incomplete, due to
the bonding event(s), and loss of metal as it got bigger and pieces came off.
This piece was one of those three -
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Wow... this thread is still alive..... amazing.... MisterGhost must have evaporated...... I have to believe he was a troll...no one could be that obstinate when presented with such overwhelming testimony and critique. Cheers, RickO
Once you study the minting process you will understand why the comments are what they are. I don't know how this happen but am pretty sure you have a unique PMD. Good for you
Has anyone noticed that the OP has not posted here since yesterday (10/25)? He's long gone. He had his fun riling people up, elicited many angered responses, and he then just left, having no doubt moved on to other worthless endeavors. It is to the forum's credit that many/most here generously offered their expertise and opinions, but once the OP was identified as a closed-minded troublemaker, we all would be well advised to ignore him, and not encourage his disruptive behavior.
They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
You cant tell these type of people anything, they will insist they have the real deal. You can be as nice as you can, but after a while it just gets old. I have this exact thing come into the shop all the time. Ive even pulled the glue off In front of them to prove the point.
Welcome aboard anyway. All are welcome, and nobody is really “hating”.
Not to go off track too far, and
this is sort of a hijack, but in lieu of starting a new thread, let me share here.
So, a guy sold me this coin a while back, and I hope it’s not PMD. I can see no sign of reeding and the rims are flush with the field.
It looks like a nice broad strike out of the collar,
on a Type 1 (no upset rim) blank.
Because the T.1 Blank is just a bit larger
than a T.2 Planchet, this T.1 Blank wouldn't
fit into the collar, so it laid on top of the collar
when struck.
Hope this helps.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@FredWeinberg said:
this T.1 Blank wouldn't
fit into the collar, so it laid on top of the collar
when struck.
Here's where I need some schooling. If I was on top of the collar, then in my mind (obviously not correct) it would not have been sitting on top of the lower die, and when struck it would have been crammed down into the space (inside the collar area) and would show signs of that. My vision of the mechanics is obviously wrong, so I am hoping for some insight. I would have guessed that if genuine, this was struck with no collar at all (but not even sure how that happens, either).
Let me take a stab. If the blank did not fit inside the collar it would not be in the coining chamber. As the dies came together PERHAPS the lower die WAIT! These things are struck on a horizontal press right? It may be the same thing... the lower die comes further into the collar ? than usual as no blank is present allowing what looks like a normal strike (the blank rests on one die while other die strikes as usual).
No, the planchet doesn't sit on top of the lower die.
It's fed into the collar, and then the Top and Bottom
dies strike the coin.
Picture the collar - a round piece of metal, with a hole
in it. The hole fits the diameter of a Type 2 planchet
(with the upset rims).
A Type 1 blank is a bit larger than a Type 2 (because
the diameter gets smaller as the upsetting machine
pulls the metal up, to form the raised rim).
This NH Quarter Blank was too big to fit INTO the collar,
so it was laying on TOP of the collar when struck.
Many errors are the result of the planchet not fitting
properly into the collar.
If the blank (or planchet) is laying partially in the collar
and partially on top of it (at an angle), you would get
a partial collar strike. Sometimes the Blank actually
gets struck on top of the collar, & the striking pressure
partially forces the blank (or plan) into the collar,also
resulting in a partial collar or RailRoad Rim strike.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Thx - I'll have to digest that but I think I can envision it. I had been under the impression that the collar and the lower die, while not connected, were fixed in relation to each other. I guess this was the root of my misunderstanding. So, the coin will get struck by both dies, collar or no collar (or coin in collar, or coin not in collar, as the case may be).....
I misspoke: "If I was on top of the collar, then in my mind (obviously not correct)..."
Obviously it was on top of the collar as you posted - it was a blank, larger than a planchet. What I tried to say - between the ( ) was that obviously, my theory of how it was made that I posted was probably incorrect.
Hopefully, Fred's post clears up my ( )!
Now:
1. Was this struck on a horizontal press?
2. Do both dies move in a horizontal press? I've only seen the outside.
3. Is one die fixed in a horizontal position?
Although some of the Schuler Horizontal Presses
were installed as early as 1997, they didn't become
prevalent until the end of 2001.
This NH Quarter was struck on a normal press, not the
newer Horizontal presses.
As far as your other questions, I don't know for sure -
although I've viewed the horizontal presses in action
at Phily and Denver, these new presses are enclosed
in a plastic protective cover (for sound suppression?)
so we couldn't get as close to the die set up as we would
have liked to see.
We were able to see, and touch, the coins as they were
'spit' out of the presses - and the coin were actually hot!
Maybe Capt.Henway knows the answers for sure, but
although it looked like the reverse horizontal die was
stationary, and what we would call the obv. die was
the die that moved into the collar and struck the coins,
I can't be sure.
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
@MisterGhost said:
I can pick at the coin with my finger nail and nothing comes off it is real trust me. I know that nowadays you cant believe things but I guarantee this coin until the end. 100% real no faking no glue all penny. If you where to see in person you would agree and shake my hand with apologies.
I have to think that a fingernail would do more damage than acetone.
@FredWeinberg said: "This NH Quarter was struck on a normal press, ..."
Going to pin you down so I understand. Out of tolerance blank pushed into position on top of the collar. Upper and lower die start to close. Obviously (?) the top die will hit the blank first as it is in a higher than usual position. What about the lower die? Won't the upper die hit the blank first and should that force it into the collar just a little bit before the lower die makes contact? I should think the n the coin will not lay flat but that's not the case here.
Thanks Fred, this is like a seminar with a great teacher!
Going to pin you down so I understand. Out of tolerance blank pushed into position on top of the collar. Upper and lower die start to close. Obviously (?) the top die will hit the blank first as it is in a higher than usual position. What about the lower die? Won't the upper die hit the blank first and should that force it into the collar just a little bit before the lower die makes contact? I should think the n the coin will not lay flat but that's not the case here.
Thanks Fred, this is like a seminar with a great teacher!
x2.
Still trying to envision it. If the collar floats, then maybe it floated down so the bottom/fixed die came in contact with the planchet without the planchet being forced into the empty collar space?
And while we are at it, aren't the new presses vertical and the old ones horizontal?
I guess I need to get a job at the Mint and see this stuff first hand to be able to wrap my head around it.
The collar does not move. It is level with the press bed. Normally the dies come together and strike a coin. Then the bottom die rises and gets the coin level with the collar so the feed fingers can push off the coin just struck and deposit a new planchet into the hole in the collar. Then the dies come together again. During the strike the planchet is inside the collar resting on the bottom die in a position BELOW the top of the collar which is at the same level as the bed.
When a struck planchet (now a coin) is pushed off the press and a blank (not upturned and too large to fit into the hole) is deposited into its position between the dies it does not come into contact with the lower die as the collar hole is too small.
NOW WHAT HAPPENS and WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE? They are called "Broadstrikes" and images are all over the web. Many are not expensive. Easy right? Now the problem is that I'm confused by a member's question. Why isn't the broadstrike bent because it was partially forced down into the hole in the collar?
The only explanation is that we know eventually the bottom die comes up level to the top of the collar and press bed. I know that because that's how the feed fingers can reach it. So I guess when a normal planchet is being struck the bottom die is ALREADY fractions of millimeters from the top of the collar and rising. That's the only way both dies can hit the blank without bending it down into the hole in the collar. Don't take this as a fact yet. FRED! KEN! BILL! MIKE! HELP!
There is a movie about making coins at the "old time" mint on you tube. Near the end it shows a coin press in operation. I believe this movie was posted here last week. I removed my bookmark so I cannot help find it.
RE: "The collar does not move. It is level with the press bed. Normally the dies come together and strike a coin. Then the bottom die rises and gets the coin level with the collar so the feed fingers can push off the coin just struck and deposit a new planchet into the hole in the collar."
Depending on manufacturer and the pattern followed during rebuilding of old presses, the collar might be either fixed or floating. The Uhlhorn type press had a fixed collar and the lower die stake rose so the coin could be removed. The Thonnilier-type had a fixed lower die stake and the collar retreated for coin removal. Later 19th century presses by Smith and others used a moveable collar table for improved rigidity.
RE: Plastic enclosures on Schuler presses. These absorb some of the sound, but their primary purpose is to protect workers from flying shrapnel when a die shatters, or planchets become stuck and the press force creates metal "needles." This material can travel more than 10 meters.
@Bodin said:
I read the whole thread and don't think I saw that anyone pointed out the most obvious tell that it is GLUE:
All of the letters are backwards and reversed.
To the OP: understand that by thinking that this is a mint error, you also think that there was a die made where everything was reversed and backwards .....and that struck your cent.
Good luck with the coin though.
I wouldn't mind being proven wrong. I haven't been wrong since 1987, so I'm due.
Haven't seen MrGhost in a few days now but he managed to rack up 88 Disagrees, 5 Agrees, 2 Likes, 26 LOLs and 5 Abuse during his sojourn to date. Quite a splash! I miss the Popcorn emoji (or whatever you call it).
Interesting how the OP just stopped posting mid argument.. Is almost like he started rubbing and the glue came off....and he was like "oh" and then just quietly slinked away....
To me, it's even more interesting that none
of these types of 'errors' that the OP's believe
are genuine errors, and who won't believe
10-15 posts saying it's not, never end up here
in PCGS or NGC holders.
Now there's a conspiracy !
Retired Collector & Dealer in Major Mint Error Coins & Currency since the 1960's.Co-Author of Whitman's "100 Greatest U.S. Mint Error Coins", and the Error Coin Encyclopedia, Vols., III & IV. Retired Authenticator for Major Mint Errors for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Comments
Well, that can easily be arranged my friend.
Simply submit it to a reputable TPG and then post the results of this "unique" find.
I'll snap a picture of my face and then post it to the thread.
The name is LEE!
Actually, it is going to cost you way more than it's worth since these types of coins show up all the time and always elicit the exact same responses. Glue.
The coin was definitely NOT minted that way since "Mirrored lettering" exists on the die to impart normal lettering on the coin at striking time.
Your coin definitely has mirrored lettering and as such represents post minting damage of some sort. Whether it's a vice job or a glue job is unimportant. What is important is that it is not an "authentic" US Mint Error since it is physically impossible to create that result during the minting process.
The name is LEE!
Damn! This is a long thread!
The name is LEE!
okay, okay..
I'll go 4 cents, plus postage.
Just to hit it with a hammer
BHNC #203
How many cents were thought to be in the group (or how much did it weigh)?
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
The 1979-D 'Cluster' shown was part of
a deal I bought about 7 years ago.
In it were 5 1979-D Cent clusters -
Three of them weighed 59 grams, 62.4 grams, and 65 grams.
By weight only they had: 19+ planchets, 20+ planchets, and 21+ planchets.
(I say by weight only because some of the coins were incomplete, due to
the bonding event(s), and loss of metal as it got bigger and pieces came off.
This piece was one of those three -
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
They sure are some cool pieces Fred !
The press operator must have been on cigarette break......
Wow... this thread is still alive..... amazing.... MisterGhost must have evaporated...... I have to believe he was a troll...no one could be that obstinate when presented with such overwhelming testimony and critique. Cheers, RickO
Once you study the minting process you will understand why the comments are what they are. I don't know how this happen but am pretty sure you have a unique PMD. Good for you
Best place to buy !
Bronze Associate member
Sounds like you spent money on this coin as well. Anyway, good luck selling it!
Has anyone noticed that the OP has not posted here since yesterday (10/25)? He's long gone. He had his fun riling people up, elicited many angered responses, and he then just left, having no doubt moved on to other worthless endeavors. It is to the forum's credit that many/most here generously offered their expertise and opinions, but once the OP was identified as a closed-minded troublemaker, we all would be well advised to ignore him, and not encourage his disruptive behavior.
You cant tell these type of people anything, they will insist they have the real deal. You can be as nice as you can, but after a while it just gets old. I have this exact thing come into the shop all the time. Ive even pulled the glue off In front of them to prove the point.
What a way to waste one's life - being an on-line troll, dedicated to annoying good people.
Are you not on Twitter?
Well he was not banned as his icon is still on this thread, so...he'll be back.
I am sure he will be back...under a different alt.
Welcome aboard anyway. All are welcome, and nobody is really “hating”.
Not to go off track too far, and
this is sort of a hijack, but in lieu of starting a new thread, let me share here.
So, a guy sold me this coin a while back, and I hope it’s not PMD. I can see no sign of reeding and the rims are flush with the field.
What do you think Mister ? It stands on edge.
It looks like a nice broad strike out of the collar,
on a Type 1 (no upset rim) blank.
Because the T.1 Blank is just a bit larger
than a T.2 Planchet, this T.1 Blank wouldn't
fit into the collar, so it laid on top of the collar
when struck.
Hope this helps.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I really like the wide rims. Wish I had one in MS-65.
Here's where I need some schooling. If I was on top of the collar, then in my mind (obviously not correct) it would not have been sitting on top of the lower die, and when struck it would have been crammed down into the space (inside the collar area) and would show signs of that. My vision of the mechanics is obviously wrong, so I am hoping for some insight. I would have guessed that if genuine, this was struck with no collar at all (but not even sure how that happens, either).
Thx.
Good Point!
Let me take a stab. If the blank did not fit inside the collar it would not be in the coining chamber. As the dies came together PERHAPS the lower die WAIT! These things are struck on a horizontal press right? It may be the same thing... the lower die comes further into the collar ? than usual as no blank is present allowing what looks like a normal strike (the blank rests on one die while other die strikes as usual).
Should one side be better struck?
if it straight grades maybe they will make some kind of special label for it
No, the planchet doesn't sit on top of the lower die.
It's fed into the collar, and then the Top and Bottom
dies strike the coin.
Picture the collar - a round piece of metal, with a hole
in it. The hole fits the diameter of a Type 2 planchet
(with the upset rims).
A Type 1 blank is a bit larger than a Type 2 (because
the diameter gets smaller as the upsetting machine
pulls the metal up, to form the raised rim).
This NH Quarter Blank was too big to fit INTO the collar,
so it was laying on TOP of the collar when struck.
Many errors are the result of the planchet not fitting
properly into the collar.
If the blank (or planchet) is laying partially in the collar
and partially on top of it (at an angle), you would get
a partial collar strike. Sometimes the Blank actually
gets struck on top of the collar, & the striking pressure
partially forces the blank (or plan) into the collar,also
resulting in a partial collar or RailRoad Rim strike.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
Thx - I'll have to digest that but I think I can envision it. I had been under the impression that the collar and the lower die, while not connected, were fixed in relation to each other. I guess this was the root of my misunderstanding. So, the coin will get struck by both dies, collar or no collar (or coin in collar, or coin not in collar, as the case may be).....
That is a great error, by the way.
I misspoke: "If I was on top of the collar, then in my mind (obviously not correct)..."
Obviously it was on top of the collar as you posted - it was a blank, larger than a planchet. What I tried to say - between the ( ) was that obviously, my theory of how it was made that I posted was probably incorrect.
Hopefully, Fred's post clears up my ( )!
Now:
1. Was this struck on a horizontal press?
2. Do both dies move in a horizontal press? I've only seen the outside.
3. Is one die fixed in a horizontal position?
THX
Although some of the Schuler Horizontal Presses
were installed as early as 1997, they didn't become
prevalent until the end of 2001.
This NH Quarter was struck on a normal press, not the
newer Horizontal presses.
As far as your other questions, I don't know for sure -
although I've viewed the horizontal presses in action
at Phily and Denver, these new presses are enclosed
in a plastic protective cover (for sound suppression?)
so we couldn't get as close to the die set up as we would
have liked to see.
We were able to see, and touch, the coins as they were
'spit' out of the presses - and the coin were actually hot!
Maybe Capt.Henway knows the answers for sure, but
although it looked like the reverse horizontal die was
stationary, and what we would call the obv. die was
the die that moved into the collar and struck the coins,
I can't be sure.
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
I have to think that a fingernail would do more damage than acetone.
@FredWeinberg said: "This NH Quarter was struck on a normal press, ..."
Going to pin you down so I understand. Out of tolerance blank pushed into position on top of the collar. Upper and lower die start to close. Obviously (?) the top die will hit the blank first as it is in a higher than usual position. What about the lower die? Won't the upper die hit the blank first and should that force it into the collar just a little bit before the lower die makes contact? I should think the n the coin will not lay flat but that's not the case here.
Thanks Fred, this is like a seminar with a great teacher!
I have all the time in the world and yet I have zero patience to read this thread.
May the Donald build the wall before there is agreement by the posters to this thread.
x2.
Still trying to envision it. If the collar floats, then maybe it floated down so the bottom/fixed die came in contact with the planchet without the planchet being forced into the empty collar space?
And while we are at it, aren't the new presses vertical and the old ones horizontal?
I guess I need to get a job at the Mint and see this stuff first hand to be able to wrap my head around it.
The collar does not move. It is level with the press bed. Normally the dies come together and strike a coin. Then the bottom die rises and gets the coin level with the collar so the feed fingers can push off the coin just struck and deposit a new planchet into the hole in the collar. Then the dies come together again. During the strike the planchet is inside the collar resting on the bottom die in a position BELOW the top of the collar which is at the same level as the bed.
When a struck planchet (now a coin) is pushed off the press and a blank (not upturned and too large to fit into the hole) is deposited into its position between the dies it does not come into contact with the lower die as the collar hole is too small.
NOW WHAT HAPPENS and WHAT DOES IT LOOK LIKE? They are called "Broadstrikes" and images are all over the web. Many are not expensive. Easy right? Now the problem is that I'm confused by a member's question. Why isn't the broadstrike bent because it was partially forced down into the hole in the collar?
The only explanation is that we know eventually the bottom die comes up level to the top of the collar and press bed. I know that because that's how the feed fingers can reach it. So I guess when a normal planchet is being struck the bottom die is ALREADY fractions of millimeters from the top of the collar and rising. That's the only way both dies can hit the blank without bending it down into the hole in the collar. Don't take this as a fact yet. FRED! KEN! BILL! MIKE! HELP!
That all makes sense, but I always thought the lower/anvil was stationary. But, that does not fit the process that created this error..
There is a movie about making coins at the "old time" mint on you tube. Near the end it shows a coin press in operation. I believe this movie was posted here last week. I removed my bookmark so I cannot help find it.
RE: "The collar does not move. It is level with the press bed. Normally the dies come together and strike a coin. Then the bottom die rises and gets the coin level with the collar so the feed fingers can push off the coin just struck and deposit a new planchet into the hole in the collar."
Depending on manufacturer and the pattern followed during rebuilding of old presses, the collar might be either fixed or floating. The Uhlhorn type press had a fixed collar and the lower die stake rose so the coin could be removed. The Thonnilier-type had a fixed lower die stake and the collar retreated for coin removal. Later 19th century presses by Smith and others used a moveable collar table for improved rigidity.
RE: Plastic enclosures on Schuler presses. These absorb some of the sound, but their primary purpose is to protect workers from flying shrapnel when a die shatters, or planchets become stuck and the press force creates metal "needles." This material can travel more than 10 meters.
I think I pointed that out,
Haven't seen MrGhost in a few days now but he managed to rack up 88 Disagrees, 5 Agrees, 2 Likes, 26 LOLs and 5 Abuse during his sojourn to date. Quite a splash! I miss the Popcorn emoji (or whatever you call it).
Kind regards,
George
MisterGhost's mom can't pay her internet bill as I sold them 3 more SUPER RARE Glueconian LINCOLN's so they could corner the market.
Please send it in.
100% Positive BST transactions
Interesting how the OP just stopped posting mid argument.. Is almost like he started rubbing and the glue came off....and he was like "oh" and then just quietly slinked away....
My Early Large Cents
Hoard the keys.
To me, it's even more interesting that none
of these types of 'errors' that the OP's believe
are genuine errors, and who won't believe
10-15 posts saying it's not, never end up here
in PCGS or NGC holders.
Now there's a conspiracy !
for PCGS. A 49+-Year PNG Member...A full numismatist since 1972, retired in 2022
send it to a coin expert and have them look at it then get their opinion in writing and show it here
Coins for sale at link below
https://photos.google.com/album/AF1QipOVMv7FZDb2BvqQnSIUKnelz2nhX9TVEMcKHgHm
Good advice, of course, but s/he will never take it.
The coin experts are right here (not that I am claiming to be one of them) and they have offered a resounding opinion.
LOL, you can see glue residue to the right of abes face.