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Corrugated Cardboard Toning (formerly Waffle Toning)

ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
edited July 1, 2017 11:11AM in U.S. Coin Forum

A while ago there was a TrueView of a waffle toned coin posted here and there was some discussion about how this type of toning can happen. I can't find the thread now, but I just ran across a dealer, Chromatic Coins, with a bunch of these for those interested in this type of color.

Note: I've updated the title of this thread as I've learned this is referred to as corrugated cardboard toning by dealers and collectors that specialize in these.

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Comments

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Looks like CC can teach us all a thing or twenty. I'm going to call him.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    Everything I see on that page is artificially toned. The picture below is how the striped coins are toned.

    Using what chemicals? Microwave, heat?

  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,595 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 said:

    @bolivarshagnasty said:
    Everything I see on that page is artificially toned. The picture below is how the striped coins are toned.

    Using what chemicals? Microwave, heat?

    the waffle cardboard shown under the coins.

  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Most likely heat and humidity, as in the attic of a home.

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMO, if all the guy did was put coins on cardboard in his attic a decade ago and they toned this way, I'll need to wait until 2027 :'( before my NATURALLY TONED coins can be certified.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    Still MY favorite:

    Nice colors on that one. Still kind of regret not hitting the $2500 BIN.

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,072 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I saved the original tag (also a photo of the reverse):

    peacockcoins

  • cameonut2011cameonut2011 Posts: 10,061 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Someone needs to step away from the sulfur pen.

  • JimnightJimnight Posts: 10,804 ✭✭✭✭✭

    I don't care for the looks of them!

  • morgandollar1878morgandollar1878 Posts: 4,006 ✭✭✭✭✭

    They are way cool IMO, but I do not understand how they can be NT according to our host.

    Instagram: nomad_numismatics
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 25, 2017 12:21AM

    @morgandollar1878 said:
    They are way cool IMO, but I do not understand how they can be NT according to our host.

    I'm not sure, our host will have to answer. If these are toned in the cardboard waffle holders used to ship coins, can these be considered similar to say album toning?

  • 3keepSECRETif2rDEAD3keepSECRETif2rDEAD Posts: 4,285 ✭✭✭✭✭

    ...maybe waking up with a gallon of speed dip under your covers at the foot of your bed in the middle of the night could be a game changing event...it worked in The Godfather ;)

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,072 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Thanks for joining and sharing with us your opinions and conjecture on toning. Please keep in mind though that on rare ocassions a coin or two may slip by our hosts (and certainly anyone else).

    peacockcoins

  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,531 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Although I don't collect such fancy toning I do have a question:
    Hey OP, have you ever eaten a waffle? They are little squares on my machine, and they are lines on yours?
    Wrong description in my mind. I really expected coins that toned like a waffle looks.
    bob

    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • CoinPhysicistCoinPhysicist Posts: 597 ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 26, 2017 6:38PM

    As a relatively younger collector but someone who has looked at 1000s of pictures of toned coins in heritage catalogs and eBay auctions and never seen any coins toned like this, how are these toned if they are toned naturally? Outside of this seller, no one has coins that looks like these (That I recall). If this toning was done naturally and these are silver coins, wouldn't I expect to see other silver coins toned this way? The US mint has been producing silver coins for 200 years and these are the only coins I have seen toned like this - well a few monster toned Morgans, but they don't quite look like these.

    I would be very curious how coins are made toned this way without the use of added chemicals or heat or exposing to gas post slabbing.

    Of course I am not accusing this seller of doctoring coins. But the likelihood that his coins would be the only coins I have ever seen that look like this seems kind of unlikely.

    Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.

  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭


  • bolivarshagnastybolivarshagnasty Posts: 7,348 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @chromatic_coins said:
    To all of the skeptics who think I am doctoring coins: I have never and will never artificially doctor a coin to enhance its color. I buy all of my coins raw, as is, and submit them to the professionals at PCGS to determine the authenticity of the color. I have had them go "Details- Questionable Color" many times before, but the certified coins on my page are 100% not AT coins. The waffle and striped toners are the product of a man storing those coins in a safety deposit box, untouched, for 26 years. They are absolutely naturally toned (as confirmed by PCGS) and were not subjected to any artificial environment (i.e. Heat, chemicals, humidity, etc). I am a collector and a dealer who is very passionate about toned coins, who absolutely detests AT and those that intentionally doctor coins, and I am more than happy to answer any questions or have a discussion with those interested. All of the striped toners have since been sold to collectors, but I always have new coins coming in- keep an eye out!

    Mr. Chromatic, No one accused you of doctoring coins. I stated that all the coins in the OP's picture appear to be AT'd, and I stand by that statement. If you are buying raw toners, do you believe every story you hear about how the coins got that way? As for PCGS, they are straight grading lots of AT'd coins. I have files of pics I have saved to prove this. Edynamicmarketing is a Seller on ebay like you are. They were submitting 100's of AT'd material and got a good portion of it through. Check out their site, and then compare to the coins in the pictures above. We have beaten a dead horse when it comes to this subject. Even to the point of showing a before and after pic of the same PCGS cert. # blast white and then subsequently toned. Yes, they have figured out how to force gas into the slab to tone, though most of the toners like this are hideous. I believe you are passionate, but are lacking in knowledge about this subject.

    Below you will find how good the sulfur doctors have become. These three I personally submitted and got a straight grade. I'm positive they are contrived. Why? Because there were others that surfaced a few months after I bought these. Strikingly similar in color and pattern. Just like the proliferation of the waffle/stripe toned examples above. I had only seen a few examples prior to last year when an example sold for 2k. Now they are everywhere.



  • fivecentsfivecents Posts: 11,207 ✭✭✭✭✭


  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2017 1:58AM

    @AUandAG said:
    Although I don't collect such fancy toning I do have a question:
    Hey OP, have you ever eaten a waffle? They are little squares on my machine, and they are lines on yours?
    Wrong description in my mind. I really expected coins that toned like a waffle looks.
    bob

    I've eaten Belgian waffles, Eggo waffles, waffle potato chips, waffle fries and Mickey Mouse waffles among others.

    Have you ever eaten any and, if so, what kinds? ;)

    The dramatic yellow coins ($2500 TrueView and cardboard coins) remind me of waffle potato chips and fries where one line of potato is crossed with another line so on either side there is a high ridge side linked by criss cross ridges underneath to create lines with a pattern which these coins remind me of (vs. straight ridges). They are even yellow in color. The other non-yellow coins are a bit less dramatic and may be more like ridges.

    To me these are also a bit more like waffle cancelled coins which have strong ridges than say Eggo waffles which are more of a grid.

    Here's what I'm thinking of:

    Of course, the coins don't look anything like the last waffles I ate in Orlando:

  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @chromatic_coins.... Welcome aboard. I can see you are passionate about the coins... however, you may have been misled.... Unintentional as it may be, please consider the fact that these coins are not what are considered NT by most experienced numismatists. Cheers, RickO

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 27, 2017 8:14AM

    @BillJones said:

    @braddick said:
    Still MY favorite:

    Sorry, that piece looks to be totally covered with artificial toning. It might look pretty to some, but it's not natural.

    One interesting thing about that coin is that I don't think a similar looking coin has ever appeared, even when it was the subject of heated debate when it was in a problem free holder. Are there coins with similar toning?

  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @mt_msla said:
    WHAT A BUNCH OF CRAP

    Totally agree. I wouldn't pay silver for them. Heck I wouldn't own them!

  • Insider2Insider2 Posts: 14,452 ✭✭✭✭✭

    IMO, There are several reasons to doubt these coins BUT anything can happen (although perhaps not in the quantity seen by the same sellers).

    1. Time. Not enough time has passed for theses colors to occur (naturally w/o help). As I posted above, "help" in the form of placing these coins in a certain environment is OK.
    2. These bullion coins were not stored or treated the way older toned coins were. How did they tone?
    3. We know that PCI white SE that are toned are natural. We know the toned coins removed from albums probably are natural. These coins have a pattern of oxidation. I cannot think of any way to produce the fancy patters as the above coin w/o help.

    The problem is, no matter how these coins are produced: NT, NT w/help, or AT, many have become acceptable.

  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,472 ✭✭✭✭

    @Zoins said:
    His eBay store, chromaticcoins, has a number of these. Only the last one here is still available. I wonder if he was able to get his price for the first two.

    If these are AT, PCGS should consider that when slabbing these.

    PCGS 83433170 - offered for $2,499.99

    PCGS 84139154 - offered for $1,499.00

    PCGS 84139155 - offered for $549.99

    Evidently, PCGS no longer has a problem with artificially toned coins which these obviously are.
    There's a seller on eBay which has a BUNCH of AT IKE's both slabbed by PCGS and unslabbed.

    I half expect someone to slip a "textile toned" ASE for grading someday even though the ASE's were NEVER in Bags.

    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,072 ✭✭✭✭✭

    A non-collector friend at work stated the following when he read this thread over my shoulder:
    "I haven't had a slice of pie this good since the Garden of Eden".

    peacockcoins

  • Firstly, Bob- I've had waffles lol, if you check out my Instagram page there is a photo I shared a few weeks ago of an actual waffle patterned ASE that was recently certified by PCGS, I'm assuming that's what people are referring to as "waffled". Secondly, to "totally"- there absolutely are many more toned coins that are exactly like mine that I do not own. Check out PCGS Coinfacts and check out some of the true views for silver eagles, many look like those on my page. And lastly to all, I understand this is a controversial topic. To the people questioning my knowledge and saying this degree of toning can't happen in such a short time: try taking a blast white ASE and just setting it on your windowsill for 1 year and watch what happens to it. Toning can actually happen quite quickly in a natural setting. And you simply can't compare the toning on Morgan Dollars and 200 year old coins to the toning on shiny, clean bullion. ASEs do tone to this degree naturally- I understand PCGS gets it wrong occasionally, as do I, but claiming every one of the coins on my page is AT is just not true. ASE toning is very different and very much more vibrant than common coin toning, and that is why I have fallen in love with it. I understand people's skepticism, I really do. You are all smart to be skeptical of such bright color, it can often mean doctoring has taken place. All I can say is I absolutely will never doctor coins myself- I don't believe in it, and I think it is the root cause of the controversy surrounding authentic ASE toners.

  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,471 ✭✭✭✭✭

    If the "waffle" pattern comes from Safety Mailers, I would call that artificial toning. No collector in their right mind would store their Silver Eagles in those with all that glue and sulfur. A lot of ASE collectors I know prefer them "white."

    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭

    What really burns me is that these are in straight graded holder and I have several that are NT, but PCGS said no! :/

  • braddickbraddick Posts: 23,072 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Does NGC still take the stance that ALL of these are questionable?

    peacockcoins

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭

    There is a significant market for toned coins. The IHC PR coins that I collect had no tonig after they were minted about 130 years ago +/- . But I have never observed one which had waffle toning. The Questionable Color would arise because the coins are relatively new (<30 years) and the toning is due to unique storage conditions. Album toning would not make waffle toning.

    But PCGS has no downside on straight grading these coins as they establish a value in CoinFacts that is a fraction of value of what these coins might sell for. A BIG difference than when grading a rare coin that is 200 years old and worth six figures. But I have submitted a number of +100 YO coins that were returned as QC that were just not credible RD coins, but way more plausible than waffle toned coins that are not even 300 years old.

    OIJNK

  • mt_mslamt_msla Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭

    Hey! I've earned my first "disagree" on this post! Woooo! I'm 1 for 289.

    Insert witicism here. [ xxx ]

  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited June 28, 2017 5:56PM

    This kid is on Reddit every once in a while touting his AT coins. Like others have said he must put sulfur powder in safety mailers and then put the ASE inside and either leaver it in a low temp oven or in a attic or something like that.

    I can't believe PCGS would holder any of these as is. It really makes you think twice....

  • BruceSBruceS Posts: 1,350 ✭✭✭✭✭

    So why are these getting straight grades? I can see a handful getting by the graders, but I've been seeing a lot in problem free holders as of late. Is this the new market acceptable in terms of color? I don't get it.


    eBay ID-bruceshort978
    Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
  • mt_mslamt_msla Posts: 815 ✭✭✭✭

    @Insider2 I was kinda hoping/expecting folks to "disagree" with that particular post about disagreeing lol

    Insert witicism here. [ xxx ]

  • @ShadyDave said:
    This kid is on Reddit every once in a while touting his AT coins. Like others have said he must put sulfur powder in safety mailers and then put the ASE inside and either leaver it in a low temp oven or in a attic or something like that.

    I can't believe PCGS would holder any of these as is. It really makes you think twice....

    You're dead wrong actually. I've stated a thousand times and I'll state it again- I have never doctored a coin in my life. I buy every toned ASE "as is" and submit them to PCGS myself. People don't seem to understand that .999 bullion tones very differently than .900 US coins. The flashier colors come with the territory. Check out toned Libertads and you will see similar colors. The graders at PCGS are professionals, they might slip up here and there, but if you see straight holdered eagles in PCGS plastic, chances are the toning is legitimate. I understand the skepticism with bright color, but I think more often than not people are apt to jump to conclusions, rather than considering the possibility that the color is legitimate. I DO NOT use sulphur, or any other chemicals. Every coin on my page has come into my possession in the condition that you see it in. AT coins are garbage and I have no interest in them. I'm extremely passionate about naturally toned silver eagles- I have met many people through the years that share that passion who I regularly do business with.
    It's unfortunate there has to be so much controversy surrounding the subject, but all I can do is be 100% open and honest, and continue to collect the coins I love. I strongly encourage the skeptics to take a BU silver eagle and leave it setting in an envelope or on a shelf somewhere and forget about it for a couple years. I PROMISE you will be surprised how quickly and colorfully these coins tone with absolutely no doctoring. It's absolutely worth trying.

  • ShadyDaveShadyDave Posts: 2,186 ✭✭✭✭✭

    @braddick said:
    Does NGC still take the stance that ALL of these are questionable?

    As far as I know, yes and I agree 100% with NGC.

  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,472 ✭✭✭✭

    @chromatic_coins said:
    Firstly, Bob- I've had waffles lol, if you check out my Instagram page there is a photo I shared a few weeks ago of an actual waffle patterned ASE that was recently certified by PCGS, I'm assuming that's what people are referring to as "waffled". Secondly, to "totally"- there absolutely are many more toned coins that are exactly like mine that I do not own. Check out PCGS Coinfacts and check out some of the true views for silver eagles, many look like those on my page. And lastly to all, I understand this is a controversial topic. To the people questioning my knowledge and saying this degree of toning can't happen in such a short time: try taking a blast white ASE and just setting it on your windowsill for 1 year and watch what happens to it. Toning can actually happen quite quickly in a natural setting. And you simply can't compare the toning on Morgan Dollars and 200 year old coins to the toning on shiny, clean bullion. ASEs do tone to this degree naturally- I understand PCGS gets it wrong occasionally, as do I, but claiming every one of the coins on my page is AT is just not true. ASE toning is very different and very much more vibrant than common coin toning, and that is why I have fallen in love with it. I understand people's skepticism, I really do. You are all smart to be skeptical of such bright color, it can often mean doctoring has taken place. All I can say is I absolutely will never doctor coins myself- I don't believe in it, and I think it is the root cause of the controversy surrounding authentic ASE toners.

    OH. OK.

    I suppose that the card board just "naturally" found it way onto or around those silver eagles sitting on your window sill which, IMO, is the "obvious" location to store my collection of Silver Eagles. Especially on a nice, warm. summers day.

    Without a doubt, Silver Eagles tone rather quickly. Some more quickly than others depending upon where and how they are "naturally" stored.

    Makes perfect sense.

    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2017 11:27AM

    Here's another one from our hosts, PCGS Secure 83628798:

    There seems to be a collector following for this type of toning. Here's the first TrueView coin, PCGS 83433170, on corrugated cardboard. The Instagram page has a number of people interested in purchasing this and asking about price in the $2k range.

    I have a bunch of these mailers and am interested in seeing if putting ASEs in these for a few years can result in this toning.

  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    edited July 1, 2017 11:18AM

    I've updated the title of this thread as I've learned this is referred to as corrugated cardboard toning by dealers and collectors that specialize in these.

    An interesting thing about these is that they are all PCGS Secure.

  • crazyhounddogcrazyhounddog Posts: 13,794 ✭✭✭✭✭

    Cardboard is treated with sulfer so the cardboard does not decompose. This sulfer will react to any alloy it is subjected too. This, ladies and gentlemen, will cause these coins to tone as being showed by the OP. The real question here is; Are they market exceptable.

    The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.

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