@jwitten said:
So do yall think the sticky shipping cardboard would tone better, or non-sticky normal cardboard? Might be worth an experiment.
My first choice would be to use the outside; however, there may be something in the glue that works better. Try both sides. You can remove any residue with acetone.
Also, I would set the oven at a much lower temp so the cardboard does not ignite.
I am going to try normal cardboard and place it in the window seal, so it is a little more natural. I don't have many silver coins, so will be trying it with a Mexican one I have, that I don't even know where I got it.
@braddick said:
I saved the original tag (also a photo of the reverse):
It went from an MS-69 to a Proof?
And your point is???
First of all, a loose label shown with a slabbed coin is proof of nothing! Once a coin is cracked out, it has invalidated any opinion the TPGS has given.
Assuming that is the same coin, it looks like a "label error" as the coin is not a proof. Big deal, easy to get it fixed and the "right thing" to do. Too many times I've seen collectors point out label errors in order to feel that they know more than the professionals at the TPGS. Well, they don't. LOL.
What's more pertinent to this discussion is it went from a 69 to not graded. Why do you think that happened?
Gee, I guess that I'll ignore all logic and answer your important question.
@braddick said:
I saved the original tag (also a photo of the reverse):
It went from an MS-69 to a Proof?
And your point is???
First of all, a loose label shown with a slabbed coin is proof of nothing! Once a coin is cracked out, it has invalidated any opinion the TPGS has given.
Assuming that is the same coin, it looks like a "label error" as the coin is not a proof. Big deal, easy to get it fixed and the "right thing" to do. Too many times I've seen collectors point out label errors in order to feel that they know more than the professionals at the TPGS. Well, they don't. LOL.
What's more pertinent to this discussion is it went from a 69 to not graded. Why do you think that happened?
Gee, I guess that I'll ignore all logic and answer your important question.
Unless you owned the coins for the entire period, how can you rule out that the pieces were not ATed by the previous owner?
You're right, I absolutely can't. All I can do is make my best educated guess on the authenticity of the toning and hope that PCGS agrees. Like I've said before, I've had plenty grade 91- Detals, and I've had plenty straight grade.
As far as how ASEs are stored- the government issued mint boxes are notorious for toning, and hundreds of thousands are bought and stored in those boxes. People also commonly buy them in the little plastic display cases where they are set into a piece of cardboard. I have bought many this way, all beautifully toned. You are right, most ASEs are stored in ways that don't allow them to naturally tone- but not all of them are. I seek out the coins that were stored in mint boxes, display cases, envelopes, etc. I avoid AT by gases and chemicals like the plague. Is it sometimes hard to tell the difference? You betcha. Does PCGS always get it right? Probably not. But to say every colorful ASE is doctored just isn't true (and I know you didn't say that, I'm just using this reply to make a point). There are colorful NT ASEs out there, and lots of collectors (like myself) who are very passionate about them.
Unless you owned the coins for the entire period, how can you rule out that the pieces were not ATed by the previous owner?
You're right, I absolutely can't. All I can do is make my best educated guess on the authenticity of the toning and hope that PCGS agrees. Like I've said before, I've had plenty grade 91- Detals, and I've had plenty straight grade.
As far as how ASEs are stored- the government issued mint boxes are notorious for toning, and hundreds of thousands are bought and stored in those boxes. People also commonly buy them in the little plastic display cases where they are set into a piece of cardboard. I have bought many this way, all beautifully toned. You are right, most ASEs are stored in ways that don't allow them to naturally tone- but not all of them are. I seek out the coins that were stored in mint boxes, display cases, envelopes, etc. I avoid AT by gases and chemicals like the plague. Is it sometimes hard to tell the difference? You betcha. Does PCGS always get it right? Probably not. But to say every colorful ASE is doctored just isn't true (and I know you didn't say that, I'm just using this reply to make a point). There are colorful NT ASEs out there, and lots of collectors (like myself) who are very passionate about them.
Just curious... how is the market for these waffle toned coins that are sometimes listed for 500% premium? How many do you sell in a month? Is your spread healthy / profitable?
@BruceS said:
I just stuck 2 new shiny ASEs in the corrugated mailer that my new DC stuff came in. And Litteraly put in on my window sill.
Stay tuned, results in a month or 2. I'm not too optimistic Though, But had to try it.
I have a mexican silver in normal cardboard now.. we will compare the sticky mailer cardboard vs normal.
Not an exact test. One of you needs to use the sticky side AND the plain side all other conditions being equal to get a "true" result. Sticky side in a window in Alaska may tone differently than sticky side in FL.
Also best to use identical coins. Perhaps, this will be just the beginning of a bunch of experiments by members. Cannot wait to read the results.
@BruceS said:
I just stuck 2 new shiny ASEs in the corrugated mailer that my new DC stuff came in. And Litteraly put in on my window sill.
Stay tuned, results in a month or 2. I'm not too optimistic Though, But had to try it.
I have a mexican silver in normal cardboard now.. we will compare the sticky mailer cardboard vs normal.
Not an exact test. One of you needs to use the sticky side AND the plain side all other conditions being equal to get a "true" result. Sticky side in a window in Alaska may tone differently than sticky side in FL.
Not scientific at all, just curiosity, but I will stick 2 more in the other side of the mailer (Sticky side out) and put it on the same sill.
@BruceS said:
I just stuck 2 new shiny ASEs in the corrugated mailer that my new DC stuff came in. And Litteraly put in on my window sill.
Stay tuned, results in a month or 2. I'm not too optimistic Though, But had to try it.
Why not cut the mailer in half and put one in the sticky side and the other in the smooth?
Even this is not perfect. Would the side facing the window tone different than the side facing inside? We should have some interesting coins in a few months, and the price of these things might come down, lol.
@BruceS said:
I just stuck 2 new shiny ASEs in the corrugated mailer that my new DC stuff came in. And Litteraly put in on my window sill.
Stay tuned, results in a month or 2. I'm not too optimistic Though, But had to try it.
Why not cut the mailer in half and put one in the sticky side and the other in the smooth?
Even this is not perfect. Would the side facing the window tone different than the side facing inside? We should have some interesting coins in a few months, and the price of these things might come down, lol.
Absolutely this is no artificial toning. I believe it. Lol!!
One side (toward sun) should get hotter and tone differently. IMO. in order to get the great colors, chemicals are used. Soak a mailer in sulfur water and let it dry. Put the coin inside in the window. Try the oven with only a gas pilot flame. LOL. Wish I had the time to play also.
Evidently, PCGS no longer has a problem with artificially toned coins which these obviously are.
There's a seller on eBay which has a BUNCH of AT IKE's both slabbed by PCGS and unslabbed.
I half expect someone to slip a "textile toned" ASE for grading someday even though the ASE's were NEVER in Bags.
Never in bags at the Mint. You can't really know what someone does with them at home.
@crazyhounddog said:
Cardboard is treated with sulfer so the cardboard does not decompose. This sulfer will react to any alloy it is subjected too. This, ladies and gentlemen, will cause these coins to tone as being showed by the OP. The real question here is; Are they market exceptable.
EVERY RED LINCOLN cent is red because it is toned. EVERY NT Morgan dollar has sulfur toning from sulfur in the environment. It really is more complicated than AT vs NT. If I buy a bunch of silver eagles and put them in paper coin rolls for decades, they will tone from the sulfur in the paper. Is this "natural" or "artificial"? If I put the same rolled coin in a warmer environment, it will tone faster. Is this "natural" or "artificial"? Does it matter whether my warm environment is a shed in Arizona or the oven in my house? How would you or PCGS know?
Just noticed that one of these was featured in a January 26, 2018 CoinUpdate article titled "Sky-high rainbow toned eagles: Bid carefully" by Michael Bugeja. This is about 6 months after this thread.
@Zoins I read the entire article including the links. While there is some good information within, I can’t agree with his view that the “patriotic flag” and the “crescent toners” occur naturally any more so than the “textile” toned ASE’s that are currently being marketed. Having bought and sold these for 10+ years, I’m skeptical about all of them with the exception of the PCI toned examples. Even those can be accelerated by baking the holder. My opinion based on years of eBay searches and observations.
Although I agree that you should collect what you want and spend your money as you see fit, all these coins above IMHO are accelerated AT. Yes they are older ASE's, but no different than a Taco Bell napkin on the window sill. I have held these 2 ASE for 22 and 19 years in their original packages as received. Insignificant and crappy toning you bet. Might be a little better in an album or other coin holder but this is how I believe NT should primarily look on a silver coin only 20-30 years old stored in a normal fashion. But if the above is what some of the market wants, go ahead. Just TPGs need to be consistent with AT.
Wow, I just ran across the "Rainbow PCI Silver Eagles" show case Registry Set from Michael Bugeja and it has a bunch of these in it.
At first I thought these were from PCI holders per the Registry Set name but the description says they are included because of their stunning looks. The set calls these "American Flag Toning".
Michael Bugeja wrote:
You'll also see several coins with patterns that resemble the American flag. That happened when the coins were placed in cardboard mailers. Those aren't PCI coins, but they are so stunning that I included them in the collection.
@DCW said:
At least the guy is honest and said the toning comes from cardboard mailers.
Agreed. This makes sense and makes them more NT to me. These cardboard mailers have become a very standard way to ship coins, like canvas bags in the old days, though one is for the secondary market while the first is for original Mint shipments.
IMO some of the accelerated toning can be aesthetically pleasing.
There is obviously a market for those coins. The issue is that if they can be "manufactured" will they always command the premiums that they do now? Probably not, as there is an almost unlimited supply of ASE's.
Similar to the modern condition rarities the values will settle down.
@DCW said:
At least the guy is honest and said the toning comes from cardboard mailers.
Agreed. This makes sense and makes them more NT to me. These cardboard mailers have become a very standard way to ship coins, like canvas bags in the old days, though one is for the secondary market while the first is for original Mint shipments.
They are baking them or putting them in a 125 degree attic. How does this make them more NT? Add to that, I don't remember seeing any such work back in the 2014 time frame. They are being made to demand.
*
*
@DCW said:
At least the guy is honest and said the toning comes from cardboard mailers.
Agreed. This makes sense and makes them more NT to me. These cardboard mailers have become a very standard way to ship coins, like canvas bags in the old days, though one is for the secondary market while the first is for original Mint shipments.
They are baking them or putting them in a 125 degree attic. How does this make them more NT? Add to that, I don't remember seeing any such work back in the 2014 time frame. They are being made to demand.
I haven't seen anything that I would call evidence that they are being baked. Has someone mentioned they did this or have you tried it?
@jwitten said:
So do yall think the sticky shipping cardboard would tone better, or non-sticky normal cardboard? Might be worth an experiment.
My first choice would be to use the outside; however, there may be something in the glue that works better. Try both sides. You can remove any residue with acetone.
Also, I would set the oven at a much lower temp so the cardboard does not ignite.
I am going to try normal cardboard and place it in the window seal, so it is a little more natural. I don't have many silver coins, so will be trying it with a Mexican one I have, that I don't even know where I got it.
@BruceS said on July 10, 2017:
I just stuck 2 new shiny ASEs in the corrugated mailer that my new DC stuff came in. And Litteraly put in on my window sill.
Stay tuned, results in a month or 2. I'm not too optimistic Though, But had to try it.
@DCW said:
At least the guy is honest and said the toning comes from cardboard mailers.
Agreed. This makes sense and makes them more NT to me. These cardboard mailers have become a very standard way to ship coins,
John, I dont think anyone ships them raw with the coin pressed against the cardboard mailer. (Which is what would need to happen to produce the waffle toning naturally)
In my opinion, these are 100% doctored to achieve the desired effects
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I dont think anyone ships them raw with the coin pressed against the cardboard mailer
+1.
I wonder if PCGS will come to their senses and stop encapsulating these the way they did with those neon Proof Jefferson Nickels back around 2002-4. to me it's a little embarrassing. another example of this sort of thing was done by ex-forum member katysok. he took Modern Silver Dollar Commems and baked them in the oven to a uniform gold color and then submitted them individually or in small groups to PCGS till he had a complete set.
when he was done he exposed the "experiment" at this forum. I met him a few years later at a P.A.N. Show and still have the encapsulated Dollar he gave me.
As someone who has collected SAEs for years now, and has had them on display IN those after market cardboard holders (the type shown in a post above...and the ones that say "Congratulations", "Happy Birthday", etc), I have seen how quickly some can tone and how.
The ones shown as those sold by Chromatic Coins are not ones I would touch for anything over the price of a comparable untoned SAE of the same date/condition.
There is a dancing around of "I only sell them, and I buy them as-is from others" with no comment on whether or not he feels they are AT/QT. Hiding behind "PCGS QTs some of them and holders others, so the ones they holder with a grade are obviously NT" comments does nothing for making me think differently on them.
I will also say that some people are being very shortsighted in how they are thinking about this...even with their own "experiments". With me adding heat, chemicals, etc, I have seen how differently the toning can end up when different colored cardboard inserts are used as well as different types of the cardboard those inserts use. Kind of like Wayte Raymand, but with color on the cardboard "as manufactured". I used to see those cardboard pages mentioned a lot, years ago, not so much lately though.
Also, different locales, weather, temperature, air quality, etc will all have a play.
I had a few in the holders and on display at a previous house. Same room, different locations (on shelf, on windowsill, on desk, etc). I was very proud of my SAEs back then...blast white and shiny...super cool. This was before I saw how quickly they toned in some environments.
I had one that toned butt ugly...I mean U-G-L-Y (all yucky brown)....when I noticed it a few months later (maybe 8-10 months) while a few others didn't tone much, and 1 or two toned deep, but with golden yellow, reds and blues (from light blue to dark purple...depending on time left in holder), and not in swirly patterns or anything....just in solid color moving across the surface.
Took me awhile, but I figured out that, while all in the same room (home office I had), that I spent a lot of time in as well (so, normal home temp...maybe 68-70 degrees....warmer in summer as no AC), and nothing else introduced to the coins, the ugly one was sitting above a heat duct. Once I noticed that, I had the ducts cleaned professionally.....there was a LOT of dust/dirt. House was only ~4 years old at that time. Since then, I've never put another single one over a heat duct. I never thought about it initially, but it became apparent, to me, that is what happened to that coin (out of almost a dozen, that was the only one over a heating vent and the only one that toned ugly. As I said, others went from virtually no change to full toning).
So, people here are trying things, which is great, but seem to be only thinking in terms of their own environment and what they see is what they expect from all of them.
Someone in CA is likely to be different from AZ and that is likely to be different from Houston TX vs MN vs FL, etc etc etc.
However, I will say, the ones in the OP and shown with that website for sale, 3 years ago.....nope....no thank you.
@keets said: I dont think anyone ships them raw with the coin pressed against the cardboard mailer
+1.
I wonder if PCGS will come to their senses and stop encapsulating these the way they did with those neon Proof Jefferson Nickels back around 2002-4. to me it's a little embarrassing. another example of this sort of thing was done by ex-forum member katysok. he took Modern Silver Dollar Commems and baked them in the oven to a uniform gold color and then submitted them individually or in small groups to PCGS till he had a complete set.
when he was done he exposed the "experiment" at this forum. I met him a few years later at a P.A.N. Show and still have the encapsulated Dollar he gave me.
Did he tell PCGS so they could disavow the cert numbers? Or do they still verify?
If I recall, the blue Jeffersons were revealed to PCGS by the maker after which they were disavowed.
A while back PCGS asked for proof for some of the sellers mentioned but I don't recall them getting any.
Has PCGS taken action before without hard evidence like a confession?
@DCW said:
I dont think anyone ships them raw with the coin pressed against the cardboard mailer. (Which is what would need to happen to produce the waffle toning naturally)
In my opinion, these are 100% doctored to achieve the desired effects
I agree needing these to be raw in the mailer would show intent. Normally, I've only seen coins in some kind of plastic inside this mailers whether it's a ziploc bag, slab or flip.
so, by extension everyone who has PCGS encapsulate what they know is AT should notify them?? that just doesn't make sense, but I digress. this all took place 15-20 years ago, please don't make me regret mentioning it here.
@keets said:
so, by extension everyone who has PCGS encapsulate what they know is AT should notify them?? that just doesn't make sense, but I digress. this all took place 15-20 years ago, please don't make me regret mentioning it here.
Being a maker and a buyer are two very different things. Most buyers don't know any thing "for sure" which is what leads to dead ends when PCGS asks for evidence.
What happened to the forum member that admitted to the blue Jeffersons which were disavowed?
I'm guessing your friend will be fine. It seems doctoring isn't really frowned upon by the hobby. Doctors can even teach at the ANA Summer Seminar.
Categorize them as a form of colorization? Aftermarket colorized?
These are questions that will have to be answered at some point IMO. Otherwise buyers are being misled as to the origin of the toning. Consistency is always the goal for the TPG's.
Comments
I am going to try normal cardboard and place it in the window seal, so it is a little more natural. I don't have many silver coins, so will be trying it with a Mexican one I have, that I don't even know where I got it.
Gee, I guess that I'll ignore all logic and answer your important question.
Or, not.
BHNC #203
Remember the good ole days?
Coin Club Benefit auctions ..... View the Lots
Yes I do!! And I still have all of these ASEs in the OG PCI holders.
Hi Frank,
I guess you figured it out.
You're right, I absolutely can't. All I can do is make my best educated guess on the authenticity of the toning and hope that PCGS agrees. Like I've said before, I've had plenty grade 91- Detals, and I've had plenty straight grade.
As far as how ASEs are stored- the government issued mint boxes are notorious for toning, and hundreds of thousands are bought and stored in those boxes. People also commonly buy them in the little plastic display cases where they are set into a piece of cardboard. I have bought many this way, all beautifully toned. You are right, most ASEs are stored in ways that don't allow them to naturally tone- but not all of them are. I seek out the coins that were stored in mint boxes, display cases, envelopes, etc. I avoid AT by gases and chemicals like the plague. Is it sometimes hard to tell the difference? You betcha. Does PCGS always get it right? Probably not. But to say every colorful ASE is doctored just isn't true (and I know you didn't say that, I'm just using this reply to make a point). There are colorful NT ASEs out there, and lots of collectors (like myself) who are very passionate about them.
Just curious... how is the market for these waffle toned coins that are sometimes listed for 500% premium? How many do you sell in a month? Is your spread healthy / profitable?
Numismatics & Photography
rv@ravenumismatics.com
Instagram.com/coin2photo
I just stuck 2 new shiny ASEs in the corrugated mailer that my new DC stuff came in. And Litteraly put in on my window sill.
Stay tuned, results in a month or 2. I'm not too optimistic Though, But had to try it.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
I have a mexican silver in normal cardboard now.. we will compare the sticky mailer cardboard vs normal.
Not an exact test. One of you needs to use the sticky side AND the plain side all other conditions being equal to get a "true" result. Sticky side in a window in Alaska may tone differently than sticky side in FL.
Also best to use identical coins. Perhaps, this will be just the beginning of a bunch of experiments by members. Cannot wait to read the results.
Not scientific at all, just curiosity, but I will stick 2 more in the other side of the mailer (Sticky side out) and put it on the same sill.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
Why not cut the mailer in half and put one in the sticky side and the other in the smooth?
I have several of them. so ill use another one.
Edit to add: I don't want to disturb it.
eBay ID-bruceshort978
Successful BST:here and ATS, bumanchu, wdrob, hashtag, KeeNoooo, mikej61, Yonico, Meltdown, BAJJERFAN, Excaliber, lordmarcovan, cucamongacoin, robkool, bradyc, tonedcointrader, mumu, Windycity, astrotrain, tizofthe, overdate, rwyarmch, mkman123, Timbuk3,GBurger717, airplanenut, coinkid855 ,illini420, michaeldixon, Weiss, Morpheus, Deepcoin, Collectorcoins, AUandAG, D.Schwager.
Even this is not perfect. Would the side facing the window tone different than the side facing inside? We should have some interesting coins in a few months, and the price of these things might come down, lol.
Absolutely this is no artificial toning. I believe it. Lol!!
Numismatics & Photography
rv@ravenumismatics.com
Instagram.com/coin2photo
One side (toward sun) should get hotter and tone differently. IMO. in order to get the great colors, chemicals are used. Soak a mailer in sulfur water and let it dry. Put the coin inside in the window. Try the oven with only a gas pilot flame. LOL. Wish I had the time to play also.
" Wish I had the time to play also."
Looks like you have had plenty of time to reply to this thread.
I never read dates. Besides, I was at the fun show July 7 on and then the weekend. Have you ever tried to tone silver?
Just ran across two more in a CoinWorld article by Michael Bugeja so we're up to 6 now.
Never in bags at the Mint. You can't really know what someone does with them at home.
EVERY RED LINCOLN cent is red because it is toned. EVERY NT Morgan dollar has sulfur toning from sulfur in the environment. It really is more complicated than AT vs NT. If I buy a bunch of silver eagles and put them in paper coin rolls for decades, they will tone from the sulfur in the paper. Is this "natural" or "artificial"? If I put the same rolled coin in a warmer environment, it will tone faster. Is this "natural" or "artificial"? Does it matter whether my warm environment is a shed in Arizona or the oven in my house? How would you or PCGS know?
Just noticed that one of these was featured in a January 26, 2018 CoinUpdate article titled "Sky-high rainbow toned eagles: Bid carefully" by Michael Bugeja. This is about 6 months after this thread.
https://news.coinupdate.com/sky-high-rainbow-toned-eagles-bid-carefully/
Here's the TrueView:
https://www.pcgs.com/cert/83585739
Reading this thread has reminded me how much I don’t miss a certain banned forum member.
"Got a flaming heart, can't get my fill"
I hear ya.
+2!!
@Zoins I read the entire article including the links. While there is some good information within, I can’t agree with his view that the “patriotic flag” and the “crescent toners” occur naturally any more so than the “textile” toned ASE’s that are currently being marketed. Having bought and sold these for 10+ years, I’m skeptical about all of them with the exception of the PCI toned examples. Even those can be accelerated by baking the holder. My opinion based on years of eBay searches and observations.
I miss him as much as a round of shingles. This thread itself is cool though.
10-4,
My Instagram picturesErik
My registry sets
I have had some nice PCI toned, but this is my new favorite - I have no idea how it was made
Although I agree that you should collect what you want and spend your money as you see fit, all these coins above IMHO are accelerated AT. Yes they are older ASE's, but no different than a Taco Bell napkin on the window sill. I have held these 2 ASE for 22 and 19 years in their original packages as received. Insignificant and crappy toning you bet. Might be a little better in an album or other coin holder but this is how I believe NT should primarily look on a silver coin only 20-30 years old stored in a normal fashion. But if the above is what some of the market wants, go ahead. Just TPGs need to be consistent with AT.
Wow, I just ran across the "Rainbow PCI Silver Eagles" show case Registry Set from Michael Bugeja and it has a bunch of these in it.
At first I thought these were from PCI holders per the Registry Set name but the description says they are included because of their stunning looks. The set calls these "American Flag Toning".
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/toned-coins/rainbow-pci-silver-eagles/album/1750
At least the guy is honest and said the toning comes from cardboard mailers.
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
Agreed. This makes sense and makes them more NT to me. These cardboard mailers have become a very standard way to ship coins, like canvas bags in the old days, though one is for the secondary market while the first is for original Mint shipments.
IMO some of the accelerated toning can be aesthetically pleasing.
There is obviously a market for those coins. The issue is that if they can be "manufactured" will they always command the premiums that they do now? Probably not, as there is an almost unlimited supply of ASE's.
Similar to the modern condition rarities the values will settle down.
They are baking them or putting them in a 125 degree attic. How does this make them more NT? Add to that, I don't remember seeing any such work back in the 2014 time frame. They are being made to demand.
*
*
I haven't seen anything that I would call evidence that they are being baked. Has someone mentioned they did this or have you tried it?
Might be worth trying to try to replicate.
How did this turn out?
Any results to share?
John, I dont think anyone ships them raw with the coin pressed against the cardboard mailer. (Which is what would need to happen to produce the waffle toning naturally)
In my opinion, these are 100% doctored to achieve the desired effects
Dead Cat Waltz Exonumia
"Coin collecting for outcasts..."
I dont think anyone ships them raw with the coin pressed against the cardboard mailer
+1.
I wonder if PCGS will come to their senses and stop encapsulating these the way they did with those neon Proof Jefferson Nickels back around 2002-4. to me it's a little embarrassing. another example of this sort of thing was done by ex-forum member katysok. he took Modern Silver Dollar Commems and baked them in the oven to a uniform gold color and then submitted them individually or in small groups to PCGS till he had a complete set.
when he was done he exposed the "experiment" at this forum. I met him a few years later at a P.A.N. Show and still have the encapsulated Dollar he gave me.
I'm a fan of originally toned coins, but IMO these should not be certified.
Dave
As someone who has collected SAEs for years now, and has had them on display IN those after market cardboard holders (the type shown in a post above...and the ones that say "Congratulations", "Happy Birthday", etc), I have seen how quickly some can tone and how.
The ones shown as those sold by Chromatic Coins are not ones I would touch for anything over the price of a comparable untoned SAE of the same date/condition.
There is a dancing around of "I only sell them, and I buy them as-is from others" with no comment on whether or not he feels they are AT/QT. Hiding behind "PCGS QTs some of them and holders others, so the ones they holder with a grade are obviously NT" comments does nothing for making me think differently on them.
I will also say that some people are being very shortsighted in how they are thinking about this...even with their own "experiments". With me adding heat, chemicals, etc, I have seen how differently the toning can end up when different colored cardboard inserts are used as well as different types of the cardboard those inserts use. Kind of like Wayte Raymand, but with color on the cardboard "as manufactured". I used to see those cardboard pages mentioned a lot, years ago, not so much lately though.
Also, different locales, weather, temperature, air quality, etc will all have a play.
I had a few in the holders and on display at a previous house. Same room, different locations (on shelf, on windowsill, on desk, etc). I was very proud of my SAEs back then...blast white and shiny...super cool. This was before I saw how quickly they toned in some environments.
I had one that toned butt ugly...I mean U-G-L-Y (all yucky brown)....when I noticed it a few months later (maybe 8-10 months) while a few others didn't tone much, and 1 or two toned deep, but with golden yellow, reds and blues (from light blue to dark purple...depending on time left in holder), and not in swirly patterns or anything....just in solid color moving across the surface.
Took me awhile, but I figured out that, while all in the same room (home office I had), that I spent a lot of time in as well (so, normal home temp...maybe 68-70 degrees....warmer in summer as no AC), and nothing else introduced to the coins, the ugly one was sitting above a heat duct. Once I noticed that, I had the ducts cleaned professionally.....there was a LOT of dust/dirt. House was only ~4 years old at that time. Since then, I've never put another single one over a heat duct. I never thought about it initially, but it became apparent, to me, that is what happened to that coin (out of almost a dozen, that was the only one over a heating vent and the only one that toned ugly. As I said, others went from virtually no change to full toning).
So, people here are trying things, which is great, but seem to be only thinking in terms of their own environment and what they see is what they expect from all of them.
Someone in CA is likely to be different from AZ and that is likely to be different from Houston TX vs MN vs FL, etc etc etc.
However, I will say, the ones in the OP and shown with that website for sale, 3 years ago.....nope....no thank you.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Did he tell PCGS so they could disavow the cert numbers? Or do they still verify?
If I recall, the blue Jeffersons were revealed to PCGS by the maker after which they were disavowed.
A while back PCGS asked for proof for some of the sellers mentioned but I don't recall them getting any.
Has PCGS taken action before without hard evidence like a confession?
I'm not sure, but does it really matter?? he told me that he had given away a few of the coins but intended to keep the remainder.
Of course it matters. If these still validate, it's a problem.
If he's up front about it, he should tell PCGS and have the coins disavowed.
It also matters if PCGS ever disavowed coins without hard evidence which they've asked for in the past.
I agree needing these to be raw in the mailer would show intent. Normally, I've only seen coins in some kind of plastic inside this mailers whether it's a ziploc bag, slab or flip.
so, by extension everyone who has PCGS encapsulate what they know is AT should notify them?? that just doesn't make sense, but I digress. this all took place 15-20 years ago, please don't make me regret mentioning it here.
Being a maker and a buyer are two very different things. Most buyers don't know any thing "for sure" which is what leads to dead ends when PCGS asks for evidence.
What happened to the forum member that admitted to the blue Jeffersons which were disavowed?
I'm guessing your friend will be fine. It seems doctoring isn't really frowned upon by the hobby. Doctors can even teach at the ANA Summer Seminar.
Categorize them as a form of colorization? Aftermarket colorized?
These are questions that will have to be answered at some point IMO. Otherwise buyers are being misled as to the origin of the toning. Consistency is always the goal for the TPG's.
Well, if they're popular, they'll make more, and more and more.
Get "the latest" product, sell it to a greater fool. Then they'll make more.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry