I saved the before and after photos of braddick's 1998 ASE from when it was in a PCI slab as Questionable Toning to when it was in a PCGS slab as MS69-
@TomB said:
I saved the before and after photos of braddick's 1998 ASE from when it was in a PCI slab as Questionable Toning to when it was in a PCGS slab as MS69-
Well Sir, I don't like it. It looks horrible to me . Just horrible! Cartoonish.
Edited to say,
Please don't take that personal. The color pattern doesn't look right nor do the colors. Maybe the colors were juiced, saturated .
The bitterness of "Poor Quality" is remembered long after the sweetness of low price is forgotten.
@crazyhounddog said:
Cardboard is treated with sulfer so the cardboard does not decompose. This sulfer will react to any alloy it is subjected too. This, ladies and gentlemen, will cause these coins to tone as being showed by the OP. The real question here is; Are they market exceptable.
I agree Market Acceptability is a question. So far, seems like PCGS accepts but ATS does not. There also seems to be less acceptance here than on Instagram.
I find them attractive. I also do not consider it artificial toning, even if they were sat on cardboard on purpose, and left somewhere NATURAL. No chemicals were applied. No ARTIFICIAL heat was applied. Just natural heat, and sat on normal everyday objects. I think PCGS agrees with my way of thinking about NT vs AT. Yes, that edynamic guy (or whatever his name) on ebay AT his stuff, and does it even AFTER they have been graded blast white. This is different though. I guess I sorta feel sorry for the owner of these coins, as I collect toned gold, which many here have said are AT (when so far every one has straight graded, and come from different sellers, and somehow all look similar).
I suppose that the card board just "naturally" found it way onto or around those silver eagles sitting on your window sill which, IMO, is the "obvious" location to store my collection of Silver Eagles. Especially on a nice, warm. summers day.
Without a doubt, Silver Eagles tone rather quickly. Some more quickly than others depending upon where and how they are "naturally" stored.
Makes perfect sense.
Cardboard is a pretty natural environment for a coin to be stored in- have you heard of mint sets? Is mint set toning therefore artificial because the coins did not "naturally" find their way into cardboard sets? People put them there, so they must be AT. I think you're misunderstanding what is considered natural and what is artificial. Sunlight is natural, yes. So is a coin sitting on cardboard. Coating a coin in chemicals and baking it in the oven is not a natural environment for a coin. Leaving coins in cardboard for 20 years is. See the difference?
@jwitten said:
I find them attractive. I also do not consider it artificial toning, even if they were sat on cardboard on purpose, and left somewhere NATURAL. No chemicals were applied. No ARTIFICIAL heat was applied. Just natural heat, and sat on normal everyday objects. I think PCGS agrees with my way of thinking about NT vs AT. Yes, that edynamic guy (or whatever his name) on ebay AT his stuff, and does it even AFTER they have been graded blast white. This is different though. I guess I sorta feel sorry for the owner of these coins, as I collect toned gold, which many here have said are AT (when so far every one has straight graded, and come from different sellers, and somehow all look similar).
Question for you @jwitten. Cardboard is treated with Sulfur. So exposing a coin to cardboard is directly exposing it to sulfur on purpose. Because it is the sulfur that makes the toning. So you say that no chemicals were applied. But it is the chemicals in the cardboard that are directly responsible for the toning. And the coins were put on the cardboard on purpose for the sole reason being toning. So isn't this by the transitive property artificial? Technically chemicals were applied. Just indirectly or directly if you consider it, which I do. You can assume cardboard is chosen because of the Sulfur content. If that sulfur content wasn't there, cardboard would not be used, right?
Last Edit question: How is exposing it to cardboard any different than just exposing it to sulfur directly? Since that's why it is exposed to cardboard in the first place. It's basically what is happening.
@jwitten said:
I find them attractive. I also do not consider it artificial toning, even if they were sat on cardboard on purpose, and left somewhere NATURAL. No chemicals were applied. No ARTIFICIAL heat was applied. Just natural heat, and sat on normal everyday objects. I think PCGS agrees with my way of thinking about NT vs AT. Yes, that edynamic guy (or whatever his name) on ebay AT his stuff, and does it even AFTER they have been graded blast white. This is different though. I guess I sorta feel sorry for the owner of these coins, as I collect toned gold, which many here have said are AT (when so far every one has straight graded, and come from different sellers, and somehow all look similar).
Question for you @jwitten. Cardboard is treated with Sulfur. So exposing a coin to cardboard is directly exposing it to sulfur on purpose. Because it is the sulfur that makes the toning. So you say that no chemicals were applied. But it is the chemicals in the cardboard that are directly responsible for the toning. And the coins were put on the cardboard on purpose for the sole reason being toning. So isn't this by the transitive property artificial? Technically chemicals were applied. Just indirectly or directly if you consider it, which I do. You can assume cardboard is chosen because of the Sulfur content. If that sulfur content wasn't there, cardboard would not be used, right?
Last Edit question: How is exposing it to cardboard any different than just exposing it to sulfur directly? Since that's why it is exposed to cardboard in the first place. It's basically what is happening.
Almost everything has chemicals. Some cause toning, some don't. Cardboard is an every day object, that would not be unheard of to place a coin on. Taking chemicals on a q-tip or something and smearing it on the coin, then baking it in the oven would be un-natural to me. But laying the coin on a common object, then placing it in a common spot, and letting nature happen is natural, by my definition. Sure you can help nature along, by knowing what objects and placement create the best toning, but nature still has to do it's part.
I guess that is one way to look at it. It's helping nature along pretty strongly though in my opinion. It's not very natural in my opinion so set a bunch of coins in a cardboard sandwich as opposed to another storage mechanism. But I guess to each their own. I personally wouldn't be a fan of calling this natural because this was done with the intent of toning in this way using the chemicals in the cardboard. Anyways =p
I guess that is one way to look at it. It's helping nature along pretty strongly though in my opinion. It's not very natural in my opinion so set a bunch of coins in a cardboard sandwich as opposed to another storage mechanism. But I guess to each their own. I personally wouldn't be a fan of calling this natural because this was done with the intent of toning in this way using the chemicals in the cardboard. Anyways =p
The Tidy House cardboard holders come to mind as well as albums and folders when discussing these silver eagles. I know it is not exactly the same as the waffle ASE's but when it comes to cardboard I can agree that it can be a natural medium either of the solid type or the corrugated type. I am not accusing Chromatic_Coins of any wrong doing, I just have my reservations about how they got this way. I never have heard about any coin being stored between two pieces of corrugated cardboard as normal coin storage. If our host says they are okay that is fine, but I still question them.
This is not against Chromatic_Coins or any other sellers of these types of coins. Please take it constructively.
Generally, the market pays a premium (mostly 20%-30%, sometimes more) for beautifully toned mostly classic coins.
As evident from Chromatic_Coins repeatedly saying that ASE's tone very easily on window silss', why would somone pay $2k+ for a $30 coin if they can achieve this easily on a window sil?
I have been colleting ASE since 1995, have full date run of proof, bullion and anniversary sets, not until last 5 yrs stored them in good places, still have not seen any toning at all....
@crazyhounddog said: "I saved the before and after photos of braddick's 1998 ASE from when it was in a PCI slab as Questionable Toning to when it was in a PCGS slab as MS69-"
The PCI coin was graded between 1992-1998. At that time, there were no SE like this! Additionally, to the best of my knowledge, all of the now beautiful, originally toned PCI SE were still 100% white and still labeled that way with green border labels.
I think the post above said it all. If it is attractive it will grade, no matter how it got attractive. That limits any liability and guesswork too.
@Insider2 said:
The PCI coin was graded between 1992-1998. At that time, there were no SE like this!
To the best of my knowledge, there is still no other coin that looks like @braddick's ASE.
While his coin is surely unique, I disagree. Those colors are everywhere on the Internet. Only their patters differ.
Can you point to some coins with similar toning? I've been curious about this for years. If I saw other coins with the same toning, I'd be able to put this mystery to rest more
Pardon me, I'm not being a smarty BUT you are a 5 star member w/13,000 posts. I don't think I could tell/show you anything that you don't know already!
Nevertheless, put toned coins in the search engine here or Google toned coins. Possibly better get on Ebay and search for toned coins.
I've been on these boards forever and have saved bajillions of coin images. In addition to the combined PCI-PCGS image I shared previously, here is a PCGS ASE image that I saved at the same time (about a decade ago) sold by a forum member who is known to sell all manner of toned coins. These two PCGS coins were offered in the same time period and, even if we consider the images "enhanced", they look pretty dang similar to my eye-
@TomB said:
I've been on these boards forever and have saved bajillions of coin images. In addition to the combined PCI-PCGS image I shared previously, here is a PCGS ASE image that I saved at the same time (about a decade ago) sold by a forum member who is known to sell all manner of toned coins. These two PCGS coins were offered in the same time period and, even if we consider the images "enhanced", they look pretty dang similar to my eye-
I haven't seen PCGS 13444993 before and agree they look similar. Thanks for posting it!
I think it would be great for both of these to haves TrueViews to see how PCGS views these, even if they are graded 91.
@Zoins said:
I don't discrimate on number of stars and suggest you don't as well. I hope you get 5 stars soon because you seem to be the only one that brings it up
I've done that but haven't found any. Until I see them, Braddick's ASE still has unique toning to me.
Yes, I'm obsessed with the stars, points, likes, and agrees. I'm also EXTREMELY PROUD of my "disagrees" as I enjoy being "different" and very special IN MY OWN MIND! When I join something, I like to know the rules and figure out its not so obvious workings.
Although DH, JD, and JA would start with 1 Star and 1 post here, I should more than likely trust the posts from a five-star member (such as you) than a one star member until I had a chance to "rate" the 1 star newbie's opinions. Thus, I have found that many posters here with only 3 stars are just as knowledgeable as 4-5 star members.
The coin you are talking about IS UNIQUE. That should mean to anyone reading this thread (who has a grasp of our language) that there is not another one like it anywhere and there never will be one. I already posted that. Unfortunately, I'm computer illiterate! I would not know how to copy an image unless I took it with my camera. That's a big problem also as It is mounted to a trinocular microscope and only takes micrographs.
I'm going t a coin show but when I get the chance I'll try to steer you to some toned coins. Until then, there are many UNIQUE coins on the "waffel coin toning discussion here.
@Zoins said:
I don't discrimate on number of stars and suggest you don't as well. I hope you get 5 stars soon because you seem to be the only one that brings it up
I've done that but haven't found any. Until I see them, Braddick's ASE still has unique toning to me.
Yes, I'm obsessed with the stars, points, likes, and agrees. I'm also EXTREMELY PROUD of my "disagrees" as I enjoy being "different" and very special IN MY OWN MIND!
Although DH, JD, and JA would start with 1 Star and 1 post here, I should more than likely trust the posts from a five-star member (such as you) than a one star member until I had a chance to "rate" the 1 star newbie's opinions. Thus, I have found that many posters here with only 3 stars are just as knowledgeable as 4-5 star members.
As mentioned, I think you are the only one that is obsessed with the number of stars a poster has, to the point of mentioning other people's stars in multiple posts. I didn't even know about the master collector thing until you created several threads about it
I hope most people would read and trust posts based on analysis of content and not the number stars or disagrees a poster has. This is what I do.
@Zoins said: "As mentioned, I think you are the only one that is obsessed with the number of stars a poster has, to the point of mentioning other people's stars in multiple posts. I didn't even know about the master collector thing until you created several threads about it "
Perhaps you are not the curious type.
@Zoins said: "I hope most people would read and trust posts based on analysis of content and not the number stars or disagrees a poster has. This is what I do."
Exactly as I do. See: Although DH, JD, and JA would start with 1 Star and 1 post here, I should more than likely trust the posts from a five-star member (such as you) than a one star member until I had a chance to "rate" the 1 star newbie's opinions. Thus, I have found that many posters here with only 3 stars are just as knowledgeable as 4-5 star members.
PS I have found that some folks who reach a certain position like to say "it's nothing." "While I have three Oscars or Nobel prizes it's nothing special to me, I'm just an ordinary person." I roll my eyes as a majority of them are actually thinking (yes I read minds): "You unfortunate little fool, you'll never make the achievements I've made." Furthermore, I hope to earn that fifth star a few years from now (If I'm still alive) while influencing members on CU in a good way I hope.
PPS Congratulations again to the Dimeman. It's too bad you feel so happy and honored to have achieved your fifth star and posted about it. Hevens, some might be offended by your attitude about those stupid stars!
PPPS As you see, I cannot ignore some opinions about me and let them go. So, you are correct, I'm obsessed. You be the grown-up as I never grew up dispite my age. Now let's quit this petty banter, OK!
This thread is about toned coins. What did you think of the last "unique" toned coin? IMHO, the color looks very similar to the other "unique" coin. No?
There's a sucker born every minute......P.T Barnum
Hundred's and Thousand's for $20 dollar coin's lol in my opinion.
Even if there NT or AT .......Raw or in a slab
But hey to each his own i guess
@Insider2 said:
This thread is about toned coins. What did you think of the last "unique" toned coin? IMHO, the color looks very similar to the other "unique" coin. No?
I already responded to that above, but I can see how it can be hard to find with the stars discussion
Here's what I wrote:
I haven't seen PCGS 13444993 before and agree they look similar. Thanks for posting it!
These are the only two I've seen that I would consider similar in terms of the richness of colors how they blend into each other. I still have no idea how these were created. If there are many other coins like this out there or discussions of these I'd be very interested in finding them, like the corrugated cardboard toning discussions on Instagram. I'm also generally interested in learning more about the collecting crowd on Instagram since they seem (to me) to be a group somewhat distinct from traditional coin forum crowd.
@Insider2 said:
Well then, if there are two of them there must be a hundred. All of them are unique too. Let's see 'em.
You mentioned they were all over the Internet and Google so that's what I was hoping to see. So far we have 2.
I consider ANY TONED COIN with those intense colors to be identical. The only difference is the pattern of color. GAME OVER!
Would you consider Braddick's ASE and the corrugated cardboard toners to be identical? What about other coins with intense colors? Do you consider Battle Creek Morgans to be identical to the ones here?
Zoins asked: "Would you consider Braddick's ASE and the corrugated cardboard toners to be identical?" YES
"What about other coins with intense colors?" YES
"Do you consider Battle Creek Morgans to be identical to the ones here? AND SOMTIMES
I always wanted to use Yes, Yes, and Sometimes in a reply. I got tired of waiting so you'll do.
Forget the "sometimes" part as I never heard of /am ignorant of the "Battle Creek Morgans."
Those BCM coins must be very pretty.
All we are comparing is PATTERNS of toning, COLORS of toning, and INTENSITY OF COLOR. I'm not going to say any more than I already have about the originality of these colors and their patterns.
My only interests are how they were produced and how long it took to make them.
PS to all: The ANA has a Bob Campbell video on toning I recommend all beginning collectors view.
Thanks for the reply. It explains a lot. I differentiate: corrugated cardboard toning, canvas bag toning, album toning, end roll toning, tab toning, Taco Bell napkin toning, Waite Raymond album toning, gassed slab toning, etc. I'm still not sure what caused the toning on Braddick's coin. Also not sure why you'd care about how they are produced and how long it took if you think they are all identical - wouldn't it all be the same?
Now that's a really nice collection! They all have great album toning and have beed certified as natural. I've been around awhile and I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen this pattern of toning on a Franklin half until just now. Boy have I missed out. Truth be told, some (the ones that don't have the sulfur corrosion in their field and on their rims) are really attractive.
I should like to know how many years ago did these treasures come on the market in great numbers? Seventeen? Probably not. Ten years? Quite possibly. Five? Certaintly? All I know is they did not come out of Mint Sets and a while back "Brilliant White" was the desired color for coins. All of a sudden, toned commemoratives came on the market with the blocky blue, dull tan and green colors. Oh, the ones that were man-made and eventually exposed. Since then, the flood gates opened and toned coins came out of the woodwork! Where were all these toned Franklin's hiding?
A member in this thread put it best. It seems that no one important really cares about AT or NT anymore. IMO, that's a good thing as that puts me right in the middle of the status quo. I DON'T CARE EITHER! Collect what you like, like what you collect, and believe what you wish.
@chromatic_coins said:
To all of the skeptics who think I am doctoring coins: I have never and will never artificially doctor a coin to enhance its color. I buy all of my coins raw, as is, and submit them to the professionals at PCGS to determine the authenticity of the color. I have had them go "Details- Questionable Color" many times before, but the certified coins on my page are 100% not AT coins. The waffle and striped toners are the product of a man storing those coins in a safety deposit box, untouched, for 26 years. They are absolutely naturally toned (as confirmed by PCGS) and were not subjected to any artificial environment (i.e. Heat, chemicals, humidity, etc). I am a collector and a dealer who is very passionate about toned coins, who absolutely detests AT and those that intentionally doctor coins, and I am more than happy to answer any questions or have a discussion with those interested. All of the striped toners have since been sold to collectors, but I always have new coins coming in- keep an eye out!
Unless you owned the coins for the entire period, how can you rule out that the pieces were not ATed by the previous owner?
Cardboard is a pretty natural environment for a coin to be stored in- have you heard of mint sets? Is mint set toning therefore artificial because the coins did not "naturally" find their way into cardboard sets? People put them there, so they must be AT. I think you're misunderstanding what is considered natural and what is artificial. Sunlight is natural, yes. So is a coin sitting on cardboard. Coating a coin in chemicals and baking it in the oven is not a natural environment for a coin. Leaving coins in cardboard for 20 years is. See the difference?
ASEs are not offered in mint sets nor am I aware of widely used packaging in the market that would impart this print. How many people freely store ASEs raw in cardboard boxes? I doubt very many. Most are probably stored in flips, airtites, or rolls. There are far too many oddly toned ASEs for all of them to be serrendipitous/naturally toned.
The million dollar question is, when does toning become artificial toning. As with the doctoring/conserving debate there are clear cut examples of what is not ok to do. Then there is a giant gaping grey area. So the question is, what is artificial toning? Having worked in retail numismatics for the last decade, I have seen plenty of coins come in that had been stored improperly. Companies sent coins like silver eagles without any protection in a safety mailer which would impart toning like that. So is it artificial.... Well one could argue that the only cause of the toning is improper storage so is that artificial? By extension though, what about a Morgan Dollar that had been stored in a mint bag stored in the damp ground. That would also be considered improper storage though many people will accept that toning without question. In neither case is there any intent to deceive or even intent to impart toning. One could then argue that in both cases the toning is "natural" because it happened through a process by which the owner did not intend to impart the toning. There is no good answer. The only way to differentiate this would be to not straight grade anything with significant toning struck after a certain date, for arguments sake say 1984. In my opinion that would be unreasonable and i am guessing the grading services feel the same way. Figuring out how to handle that is a really complicated decision which I am glad I don't have to deal with.
@braddick said:
I saved the original tag (also a photo of the reverse):
It went from an MS-69 to a Proof?
And your point is???
First of all, a loose label shown with a slabbed coin is proof of nothing! Once a coin is cracked out, it has invalidated any opinion the TPGS has given.
Assuming that is the same coin, it looks like a "label error" as the coin is not a proof. Big deal, easy to get it fixed and the "right thing" to do. Too many times I've seen collectors point out label errors in order to feel that they know more than the professionals at the TPGS. Well, they don't. LOL.
What's more pertinent to this discussion is it went from a 69 to not graded. Why do you think that happened?
To me the point of the "Technicolor ASE" coin going from MS to PR is that it could be a mechanical error. If so, there is a possibility that our host intended to straight grade it again. It might be worth sending in again to get a correct grade and also a TrueView (which are also done for questionable toning coins).
I was here when the ASE was discussed here in a straight-graded holder over 10 years ago. If our host does think it's not MA now, I'm guessing a big part of that was due to the conversation here. Since there are just 2 of these and we don't know the background, it's hard to know whether they are AT or NT from my perspective, but the consensus was that it was not MA. Also, it seems like the consensus is that corrugated cardboard toning is not MA here, but there seem to be some on Instagram that think differently. As the hobby moves from coin forums to Instagram (with coin dealers and collectors), it will be interesting to see what happens. I have noticed some people voicing opinions on Instagram on these so more presence there may be useful for the future of the hobby.
The Technicolor ASEs were discussed as far back as 2006. It's interesting in that in over 10 years, the only 2 came on the scene at the same time and none since.
@jwitten said:
So do yall think the sticky shipping cardboard would tone better, or non-sticky normal cardboard? Might be worth an experiment.
My first choice would be to use the outside; however, there may be something in the glue that works better. Try both sides. You can remove any residue with acetone.
Also, I would set the oven at a much lower temp so the cardboard does not ignite.
Comments
I saved the before and after photos of braddick's 1998 ASE from when it was in a PCI slab as Questionable Toning to when it was in a PCGS slab as MS69-
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
Well Sir, I don't like it. It looks horrible to me . Just horrible! Cartoonish.
Edited to say,
Please don't take that personal. The color pattern doesn't look right nor do the colors. Maybe the colors were juiced, saturated .
I'm not going to give you another one no matter how hard you protest.
When are people going to learn that the market has shifted away from AT / NT to MA / NMA
Y'all still calling these hunks of bullion "toned?" Oy Vey.
I agree Market Acceptability is a question. So far, seems like PCGS accepts but ATS does not. There also seems to be less acceptance here than on Instagram.
I find them attractive. I also do not consider it artificial toning, even if they were sat on cardboard on purpose, and left somewhere NATURAL. No chemicals were applied. No ARTIFICIAL heat was applied. Just natural heat, and sat on normal everyday objects. I think PCGS agrees with my way of thinking about NT vs AT. Yes, that edynamic guy (or whatever his name) on ebay AT his stuff, and does it even AFTER they have been graded blast white. This is different though. I guess I sorta feel sorry for the owner of these coins, as I collect toned gold, which many here have said are AT (when so far every one has straight graded, and come from different sellers, and somehow all look similar).
Cardboard is a pretty natural environment for a coin to be stored in- have you heard of mint sets? Is mint set toning therefore artificial because the coins did not "naturally" find their way into cardboard sets? People put them there, so they must be AT. I think you're misunderstanding what is considered natural and what is artificial. Sunlight is natural, yes. So is a coin sitting on cardboard. Coating a coin in chemicals and baking it in the oven is not a natural environment for a coin. Leaving coins in cardboard for 20 years is. See the difference?
I am wondering any such kind of toning ASE PCGS straightly graded coin got QA sticker
Not sure but you can always check their cert verification page: http://qacoins.com/cert-verification/
Is there a following for QA stickers for ASE collectors?
Question for you @jwitten. Cardboard is treated with Sulfur. So exposing a coin to cardboard is directly exposing it to sulfur on purpose. Because it is the sulfur that makes the toning. So you say that no chemicals were applied. But it is the chemicals in the cardboard that are directly responsible for the toning. And the coins were put on the cardboard on purpose for the sole reason being toning. So isn't this by the transitive property artificial? Technically chemicals were applied. Just indirectly or directly if you consider it, which I do. You can assume cardboard is chosen because of the Sulfur content. If that sulfur content wasn't there, cardboard would not be used, right?
Last Edit question: How is exposing it to cardboard any different than just exposing it to sulfur directly? Since that's why it is exposed to cardboard in the first place. It's basically what is happening.
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
Almost everything has chemicals. Some cause toning, some don't. Cardboard is an every day object, that would not be unheard of to place a coin on. Taking chemicals on a q-tip or something and smearing it on the coin, then baking it in the oven would be un-natural to me. But laying the coin on a common object, then placing it in a common spot, and letting nature happen is natural, by my definition. Sure you can help nature along, by knowing what objects and placement create the best toning, but nature still has to do it's part.
I guess that is one way to look at it. It's helping nature along pretty strongly though in my opinion. It's not very natural in my opinion so set a bunch of coins in a cardboard sandwich as opposed to another storage mechanism. But I guess to each their own. I personally wouldn't be a fan of calling this natural because this was done with the intent of toning in this way using the chemicals in the cardboard. Anyways =p
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
I guess that is one way to look at it. It's helping nature along pretty strongly though in my opinion. It's not very natural in my opinion so set a bunch of coins in a cardboard sandwich as opposed to another storage mechanism. But I guess to each their own. I personally wouldn't be a fan of calling this natural because this was done with the intent of toning in this way using the chemicals in the cardboard. Anyways =p
Successful transactions with: wondercoin, Tetromibi, PerryHall, PlatinumDuck, JohnMaben/Pegasus Coin & Jewelry, CoinFlip, and coinlieutenant.
The Tidy House cardboard holders come to mind as well as albums and folders when discussing these silver eagles. I know it is not exactly the same as the waffle ASE's but when it comes to cardboard I can agree that it can be a natural medium either of the solid type or the corrugated type. I am not accusing Chromatic_Coins of any wrong doing, I just have my reservations about how they got this way. I never have heard about any coin being stored between two pieces of corrugated cardboard as normal coin storage. If our host says they are okay that is fine, but I still question them.
This is not against Chromatic_Coins or any other sellers of these types of coins. Please take it constructively.
Generally, the market pays a premium (mostly 20%-30%, sometimes more) for beautifully toned mostly classic coins.
As evident from Chromatic_Coins repeatedly saying that ASE's tone very easily on window silss', why would somone pay $2k+ for a $30 coin if they can achieve this easily on a window sil?
BTW, which category do these waffle toning fall under?
http://www.pcgs.com/eyeappeal/
I have been colleting ASE since 1995, have full date run of proof, bullion and anniversary sets, not until last 5 yrs stored them in good places, still have not seen any toning at all....
Numismatics & Photography
rv@ravenumismatics.com
Instagram.com/coin2photo
@crazyhounddog said: "I saved the before and after photos of braddick's 1998 ASE from when it was in a PCI slab as Questionable Toning to when it was in a PCGS slab as MS69-"
The PCI coin was graded between 1992-1998. At that time, there were no SE like this! Additionally, to the best of my knowledge, all of the now beautiful, originally toned PCI SE were still 100% white and still labeled that way with green border labels.
I think the post above said it all. If it is attractive it will grade, no matter how it got attractive. That limits any liability and guesswork too.
To the best of my knowledge, there is still no other coin that looks like @braddick's ASE.
While his coin is surely unique, I disagree. Those colors are everywhere on the Internet. Only their patters differ.
Can you point to some coins with similar toning? I've been curious about this for years. If I saw other coins with the same toning, I'd be able to put this mystery to rest more
Pardon me, I'm not being a smarty BUT you are a 5 star member w/13,000 posts. I don't think I could tell/show you anything that you don't know already!
Nevertheless, put toned coins in the search engine here or Google toned coins. Possibly better get on Ebay and search for toned coins.
I don't discrimate on number of stars and suggest you don't as well. I hope you get 5 stars soon because you seem to be the only one that brings it up
I've done that but haven't found any. Until I see them, Braddick's ASE still has unique toning to me.
I've been on these boards forever and have saved bajillions of coin images. In addition to the combined PCI-PCGS image I shared previously, here is a PCGS ASE image that I saved at the same time (about a decade ago) sold by a forum member who is known to sell all manner of toned coins. These two PCGS coins were offered in the same time period and, even if we consider the images "enhanced", they look pretty dang similar to my eye-
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
To each his/her own,
IMHO none of these ASE's are NT
POST NUBILA PHOEBUS / AFTER CLOUDS, SUN
Love for Music / Collector of Dreck
I haven't seen PCGS 13444993 before and agree they look similar. Thanks for posting it!
I think it would be great for both of these to haves TrueViews to see how PCGS views these, even if they are graded 91.
Yes, I'm obsessed with the stars, points, likes, and agrees. I'm also EXTREMELY PROUD of my "disagrees" as I enjoy being "different" and very special IN MY OWN MIND! When I join something, I like to know the rules and figure out its not so obvious workings.
Although DH, JD, and JA would start with 1 Star and 1 post here, I should more than likely trust the posts from a five-star member (such as you) than a one star member until I had a chance to "rate" the 1 star newbie's opinions.
Thus, I have found that many posters here with only 3 stars are just as knowledgeable as 4-5 star members.
The coin you are talking about IS UNIQUE. That should mean to anyone reading this thread (who has a grasp of our language) that there is not another one like it anywhere and there never will be one. I already posted that. Unfortunately, I'm computer illiterate! I would not know how to copy an image unless I took it with my camera. That's a big problem also as It is mounted to a trinocular microscope and only takes micrographs.
I'm going t a coin show but when I get the chance I'll try to steer you to some toned coins. Until then, there are many UNIQUE coins on the "waffel coin toning discussion here.
EDIT: Thanks TomB!
As mentioned, I think you are the only one that is obsessed with the number of stars a poster has, to the point of mentioning other people's stars in multiple posts. I didn't even know about the master collector thing until you created several threads about it
I hope most people would read and trust posts based on analysis of content and not the number stars or disagrees a poster has. This is what I do.
@Zoins said: "As mentioned, I think you are the only one that is obsessed with the number of stars a poster has, to the point of mentioning other people's stars in multiple posts. I didn't even know about the master collector thing until you created several threads about it
"
Perhaps you are not the curious type.
@Zoins said: "I hope most people would read and trust posts based on analysis of content and not the number stars or disagrees a poster has. This is what I do."
Exactly as I do. See: Although DH, JD, and JA would start with 1 Star and 1 post here, I should more than likely trust the posts from a five-star member (such as you) than a one star member until I had a chance to "rate" the 1 star newbie's opinions.
Thus, I have found that many posters here with only 3 stars are just as knowledgeable as 4-5 star members.
PS I have found that some folks who reach a certain position like to say "it's nothing." "While I have three Oscars or Nobel prizes it's nothing special to me, I'm just an ordinary person." I roll my eyes as a majority of them are actually thinking (yes I read minds): "You unfortunate little fool, you'll never make the achievements I've made." Furthermore, I hope to earn that fifth star a few years from now (If I'm still alive) while influencing members on CU in a good way I hope.
PPS Congratulations again to the Dimeman. It's too bad you feel so happy and honored to have achieved your fifth star and posted about it. Hevens, some might be offended by your attitude about those stupid stars!
PPPS As you see, I cannot ignore some opinions about me and let them go. So, you are correct, I'm obsessed. You be the grown-up as I never grew up dispite my age. Now let's quit this petty banter, OK!
This thread is about toned coins. What did you think of the last "unique" toned coin? IMHO, the color looks very similar to the other "unique" coin. No?
There's a sucker born every minute......P.T Barnum
Hundred's and Thousand's for $20 dollar coin's lol in my opinion.
Even if there NT or AT .......Raw or in a slab
But hey to each his own i guess
I already responded to that above, but I can see how it can be hard to find with the stars discussion
Here's what I wrote:
These are the only two I've seen that I would consider similar in terms of the richness of colors how they blend into each other. I still have no idea how these were created. If there are many other coins like this out there or discussions of these I'd be very interested in finding them, like the corrugated cardboard toning discussions on Instagram. I'm also generally interested in learning more about the collecting crowd on Instagram since they seem (to me) to be a group somewhat distinct from traditional coin forum crowd.
Well then, if there are two of them there must be a hundred. All of them are unique too. Let's see 'em.
You mentioned they were all over the Internet and Google so that's what I was hoping to see. So far we have 2.
I did post the following of a different type of toning earlier which is what I would expect given what you're saying:
I consider ANY TONED COIN with those intense colors to be identical. The only difference is the pattern of color. GAME OVER!
Would you consider Braddick's ASE and the corrugated cardboard toners to be identical? What about other coins with intense colors? Do you consider Battle Creek Morgans to be identical to the ones here?
GAME ON...again
Zoins asked: "Would you consider Braddick's ASE and the corrugated cardboard toners to be identical?" YES
"What about other coins with intense colors?" YES
"Do you consider Battle Creek Morgans to be identical to the ones here? AND SOMTIMES
I always wanted to use Yes, Yes, and Sometimes in a reply. I got tired of waiting so you'll do.
Forget the "sometimes" part as I never heard of /am ignorant of the "Battle Creek Morgans."
Those BCM coins must be very pretty.
All we are comparing is PATTERNS of toning, COLORS of toning, and INTENSITY OF COLOR. I'm not going to say any more than I already have about the originality of these colors and their patterns.
My only interests are how they were produced and how long it took to make them.
PS to all: The ANA has a Bob Campbell video on toning I recommend all beginning collectors view.
Thanks for the reply. It explains a lot. I differentiate: corrugated cardboard toning, canvas bag toning, album toning, end roll toning, tab toning, Taco Bell napkin toning, Waite Raymond album toning, gassed slab toning, etc. I'm still not sure what caused the toning on Braddick's coin. Also not sure why you'd care about how they are produced and how long it took if you think they are all identical - wouldn't it all be the same?
Now that's a really nice collection! They all have great album toning and have beed certified as natural. I've been around awhile and I can honestly say that I have NEVER seen this pattern of toning on a Franklin half until just now. Boy have I missed out. Truth be told, some (the ones that don't have the sulfur corrosion in their field and on their rims) are really attractive.
I should like to know how many years ago did these treasures come on the market in great numbers? Seventeen? Probably not. Ten years? Quite possibly. Five? Certaintly? All I know is they did not come out of Mint Sets and a while back "Brilliant White" was the desired color for coins. All of a sudden, toned commemoratives came on the market with the blocky blue, dull tan and green colors. Oh, the ones that were man-made and eventually exposed. Since then, the flood gates opened and toned coins came out of the woodwork! Where were all these toned Franklin's hiding?
A member in this thread put it best. It seems that no one important really cares about AT or NT anymore. IMO, that's a good thing as that puts me right in the middle of the status quo. I DON'T CARE EITHER! Collect what you like, like what you collect, and believe what you wish.
You seem to know a lot about toning
Unless you owned the coins for the entire period, how can you rule out that the pieces were not ATed by the previous owner?
ASEs are not offered in mint sets nor am I aware of widely used packaging in the market that would impart this print. How many people freely store ASEs raw in cardboard boxes? I doubt very many. Most are probably stored in flips, airtites, or rolls. There are far too many oddly toned ASEs for all of them to be serrendipitous/naturally toned.
I would try 300 degrees for an hour in your oven, to see if you could save some time.
It went from an MS-69 to a Proof?
BHNC #203
It's not a proof.
peacockcoins
The million dollar question is, when does toning become artificial toning. As with the doctoring/conserving debate there are clear cut examples of what is not ok to do. Then there is a giant gaping grey area. So the question is, what is artificial toning? Having worked in retail numismatics for the last decade, I have seen plenty of coins come in that had been stored improperly. Companies sent coins like silver eagles without any protection in a safety mailer which would impart toning like that. So is it artificial.... Well one could argue that the only cause of the toning is improper storage so is that artificial? By extension though, what about a Morgan Dollar that had been stored in a mint bag stored in the damp ground. That would also be considered improper storage though many people will accept that toning without question. In neither case is there any intent to deceive or even intent to impart toning. One could then argue that in both cases the toning is "natural" because it happened through a process by which the owner did not intend to impart the toning. There is no good answer. The only way to differentiate this would be to not straight grade anything with significant toning struck after a certain date, for arguments sake say 1984. In my opinion that would be unreasonable and i am guessing the grading services feel the same way. Figuring out how to handle that is a really complicated decision which I am glad I don't have to deal with.
And your point is???
First of all, a loose label shown with a slabbed coin is proof of nothing! Once a coin is cracked out, it has invalidated any opinion the TPGS has given.
Assuming that is the same coin, it looks like a "label error" as the coin is not a proof. Big deal, easy to get it fixed and the "right thing" to do. Too many times I've seen collectors point out label errors in order to feel that they know more than the professionals at the TPGS. Well, they don't. LOL.
What's more pertinent to this discussion is it went from a 69 to not graded. Why do you think that happened?
So do yall think the sticky shipping cardboard would tone better, or non-sticky normal cardboard? Might be worth an experiment.
To me the point of the "Technicolor ASE" coin going from MS to PR is that it could be a mechanical error. If so, there is a possibility that our host intended to straight grade it again. It might be worth sending in again to get a correct grade and also a TrueView (which are also done for questionable toning coins).
I was here when the ASE was discussed here in a straight-graded holder over 10 years ago. If our host does think it's not MA now, I'm guessing a big part of that was due to the conversation here. Since there are just 2 of these and we don't know the background, it's hard to know whether they are AT or NT from my perspective, but the consensus was that it was not MA. Also, it seems like the consensus is that corrugated cardboard toning is not MA here, but there seem to be some on Instagram that think differently. As the hobby moves from coin forums to Instagram (with coin dealers and collectors), it will be interesting to see what happens. I have noticed some people voicing opinions on Instagram on these so more presence there may be useful for the future of the hobby.
The Technicolor ASEs were discussed as far back as 2006. It's interesting in that in over 10 years, the only 2 came on the scene at the same time and none since.
One difference is that it could be considered NT in normal storage conditions but AT in an oven.
Of course, it would be interesting to see if the toning can be imparted both ways.
There are still very conservative in their slabbing.
Below is a proof that I got a while back, not many around.
I posted in here when I got it
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CoinsAreFun Toned Silver Eagle Proof Album
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Gallery Mint Museum, Ron Landis& Joe Rust, The beginnings of the Golden Dollar
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More CoinsAreFun Pictorials NGC
My first choice would be to use the outside; however, there may be something in the glue that works better. Try both sides. You can remove any residue with acetone.
Also, I would set the oven at a much lower temp so the cardboard does not ignite.