stman: honestly i think your question is a bit much. wondercoin is obviously helping a board member out and he made that point crystal from the beginning of this post. that is what he does. he is one of the best/fairest in the business in my opinion, and i have dealt with him for over a decade, from top to bottom best in class. fair on price/cut/deal/quality. so he is taking his time to explain the whole series. what a great service to all of us. if you collect it or not just enjoy the comments. the spouses' have always been controversial please try not to add anymore.
Excuse me if it was made clear and I missed it. And here we have another one that wants to dictate who can make a comment. I was trying to be nice.... you, not so much. And I don't need the likes of you to tell me whether to add anything. Wondercoin answered my question (he's quite capable on his own) I thanked him then you think you're going to shut me up. You asked for it to get this way.... you got your wish. Please stay out of something that doesn't or wasn't concerning you.
Honestly, I think your slam at me is a bit much. Did it make you feel good?
Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
Can we all get back to the discussion of PCGS graded Gold Spouse coins?
As Dentuck notes, the raw or 69 grade Gold Spouse coins are really a hybrid between "bullion" and potentially scarce low mintage commemoratives. These is also little difference between the $5 Gold Commem. series in my view and these $10 Gold Spouse coins. There (the $5's), as with these spouse coins (the $10's), when you have a high mintage $5 Gold Commem., it simply trades at spot (or 1% back of spot) just like bullion. If and when it is determined that the "20,000" mintage 2007 coins are not readily available (perhaps due to the melts) then perhaps that is when these coins will lose their "bullion" perception.
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Plus, it bears noting that I love the gold spouses and their manganese brass counterparts. But, couldn't afford to keep up with the Gold Spouses, with trying to run a shop and liking the classics (Type Set collecting).
The latter (prezzie bucks) do look good in the album, too, might I add.
Unfortunately our legislators who foresaw the program , were not looking far enough ahead to see these holes in the sets, series or albums; much like the 2009 Silver American Eagle Proof dollars...
With that said.... One of these days, I hope to afford more, that I can pass down to the grandkids, because they're very collectible, to me. (unfinished hobbies, as they are)
The Mint did a big disservice, IMHO, by disrupting the Liberty subset with their Alice Paul issue for Chester A. Arthur's term. Another Liberty issue with a Seated Liberty or some such would have been gorgeous, and a great addition to the other four.
A gold Indian Head Cent for Chester Arthur would have been so amazing. I bet Alice Paul is rolling over in her grave. "I wouldn't marry that man if he were the last human on earth!"
"I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
Actually I rather like some of the designs, wishing for more of a "pin-up" from Dolley Madison! I think of these more like the bullion artist series of medals the Mint put out in about 1980-82 or so. Some scarce, some with a bit of following. I do wish the best for all saving these.
Love that Milled British (1830-1960) Well, just Love coins, period.
Count me in for being in the “I like the spouses” camp. At some point, when all my trueviews are completed, I might post my entire set of Unc and Proof for a few to enjoy and the masses to troll.
Honestly, I really can’t think of a current running series that has been more hated than this series. Some board members have some good points as to how the series could have been better for one reason or another, but at this point, it doesn’t matter. Its time to stop blasting out the same comments over and over. The comments lack originality and they don’t add anything fresh to the conversation.
Now that the series has come to a close, flaws in all, and its time to do some reflection and analysis. While I won’t go into all my analysis on why I have been a purchaser of this series, I will put out a few comments to add to the thread. Based on the follow up I might post more.
The most obvious… Mintages. The mintages in this series are so small it really wouldn’t take much to move the prices upwards significantly. One dealer trying to promote would have a tough time finding any sizeable inventory without causing a spike in price. This might hurt the marketability in the short term, but I believe that will increase the values in the long term. To note, by long term I am thinking 30+ years out.
With respects to mintages, I think it will be EXTREMELY hard for anyone to find a reasonably priced example of a sub 2000 mintage coin within 10 years’ time. I’m not talking about the current (and probably soon to be unseated Queen) Roosevelt, I’m talking about ALL the sub 2000 mintage coins. Have you tried to backdate some of the fractional platinum recently? Its slim pickin’ out there, and when one does come up for sale (that isn’t all beat up) it doesn’t last long. 10-15 years out I think it will be nearly impossible to complete this set, regardless of the price of gold.
Liberty subset. We all know that these coins are beautiful. First spouse haters even like these coins. They are out there, never to be melted, always advertising for the series. Over time, the subset could bring in new collectors. Will all subset collectors pursue the entire set, not a chance. Remember, it doesn’t take much to move prices if demand changes, even slightly. 100 new entrants into other established or completed series is more than likely not enough to move price at all. 100 new entrants into the spouses, would be 5% of the current key’s population.
Just 100 people, almost comical. To think, its pretty amazing that if 2000 people in the entire world wanted to collect this series, its impossible for them to do so. In fact, they wont be locked out of 1 coin but potentially 5 coins. That is just CRAZY.
At the current pricing, if one wanted to buy any half oz of gold from the USM, essentially all options/series would be available at the same pricing (could change with centennials, but you get the picture). Why sink capital into the other gold offerings with mintages in the 10s of thousands if not higher, when they could grab some ultra low mintage gold. The $170 premium I mentioned earlier is the same between all these options. I speculate that the first spouse gold minted in the past 2 years will outperform the gold eagles in the long term. Time will tell if I’m wrong or not. I’m happy to have my set complete and just sitting and waiting, not scrambling to find these before they find permanent homes.
Just my opinion. Feel free to dissect and provide thoughtful feedback.
EDIT: Having to cut and paste my entire post by paragraph from word to the forum to get it to work is just stupid. This software is terrible.
"100 new entrants into the spouses, would be 5% of the current key’s population."
OperationButter ... I'll go a step further...
There are not even 75 people in the world right now that can own a complete set of Gold Spouse coins in top PCGS FS grade! And, as the coins get more widely dispersed over time, it may even get tougher and tougher to try to complete a collection.
And, congratulations on building your wonderful complete set of spouse coins over the past ten years! You now have a whopping 40 ozs. of (near) pure gold as the foundation for your collection.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Originally posted by: dpoole The Mint did a big disservice, IMHO, by disrupting the Liberty subset with their Alice Paul issue for Chester A. Arthur's term. Another Liberty issue with a Seated Liberty or some such would have been gorgeous, and a great addition to the other four.
Believe it or not, this was a congressional mandate as well:
``(II) as represented, in the case of President Chester Alan Arthur, by a design incorporating the name and likeness of Alice Paul, a leading strategist in the suffrage movement, who was instrumental in gaining women the right to vote upon the adoption of the 19th amendment and thus the ability to participate in the election of future Presidents, and who was born on January 11, 1885, during the term of President Arthur; and
I never did a "follow the money" trail on these issues, but it probably would have been a fascinating exercise...
Originally posted by: TwoSides2aCoin Plus, it bears noting that I love the gold spouses and their manganese brass counterparts. But, couldn't afford to keep up with the Gold Spouses, with trying to run a shop and liking the classics (Type Set collecting). The latter (prezzie bucks) do look good in the album, too, might I add.
When this series first started, I did a quick calculation on how much the series would cost through the run of prezbucks, and it was far and above what I though was worthwhile.
I did buy the Jefferson liberties, but never had a desire to go beyond that.
Unfortunately our legislators who foresaw the program , were not looking far enough ahead to see these holes in the sets, series or albums; much like the 2009 Silver American Eagle Proof dollars... With that said.... One of these days, I hope to afford more, that I can pass down to the grandkids, because they're very collectible, to me. (unfinished hobbies, as they are)
If you read the legislation, it reads like a normal bullion issue until you get to:
(6) Quality of coins.--The bullion coins minted under this Act shall be issued in both proof and uncirculated qualities.
Had it not been for this inclusion, the FS series would have been a bullion issue. The reason I bring this up, is the 24K Buffalo was also mandated under the $1 Prezbuck legislation, and one of the findings listed was:
(12) Although the Congress has authorized the Secretary of the Treasury to issue gold coins with a purity of 99.99 percent, the Secretary has not done so.
So part of this legislation was to force TreasSec into issuing 24k bullion, and cared nothing about collectors or sets. (Not that they ever do...)
Originally posted by: claychaser Mitch, can you discuss the enabling legislation and why the series is closed? And, who does it stop with? When the currently living spouses dies, why would the series not continue?
I posted the enabling legislation above.
Gold FS sunsets by the following inclusion:
(8) Termination of program.--The issuance of coins under this subsection shall terminate when each President has been so honored, subject to paragraph (2)(E), and may not be resumed except by an Act of Congress.
Paragraph (2)(E):
Limitation in series to deceased presidents.-- No coin issued under this subsection may bear the image of a living former or current President, or of any deceased former President during the 2-year period following the date of the death of that President.
Originally posted by: 3stars This series always amazed me in that the flippers faded out so fast. When the mint can sell out 10k platinum coins in an hour, but the last few years of first spouses can't break 2k over their selling period is astounding to me. Aside from the continuing expense, what caused the flippers to ignore these at the end? I would hazard a guess that there are maybe 500 actual collectors of these, with many coins residing in dealer stock and getting no traction. Can't think of another mint series that did this.
To answer the flippers question, there must be a demand before a flip works. I have a complete set through T. Roosevelt, both MS & Proof. I only have two that have been graded. Basically I had other demands on my collecting money. I really don't believe in grading brand new mint products, and especially think that "first strike" is bogus.
I respect those who collect it, but I do not understand this series.
If it for gold, then just plain bullion seems better
If collecting, to me, it is not collecting, but checkbook acquisition. They are never going to found in wild, and since there appears to be almost no difference between raw, PCGS 69 or 70, it is not like there is going to be a cherry pick. So they are not "found" just bought like Frosted Flakes at the grocery store, albeit an expensive box of cereal.
If expectation of future value on rarity, the "collapse" of the series in mintages would seem to portend something that will never have legs, especially since it takes 40 ounces of gold as the admission ticket.
Rare does not equal valuable or desirable. A 1974 Pinto 4 door Wagon with a 1.6 engine with a exterior color of Dysentery Brown and Baby Poo green interior may be rare, but not real desirable and the price will never be much higher that scrap steel.
Like most here, I can’t afford anything approaching a complete set, so I’ll be happy with a Liberty subset and a few that I like for historical interest or design quality.
The original boxes take up too much space for a single coin each, let alone an entire set. I prefer slabbed, preferably PCGS 69FS with the Flag label which (for the most part) have only slight premiums over raw.
Future collectors will favor the proofs, which are *much* more attractive than the uncs. The main thing the uncs have going for them are slightly lower mintages, but collector demand for them is lacking. Two of the scarcest ones, the 2014 Harding and Hoover, have likely mintages under 2000 and are still not sold out after more than a year and a half on the Mint’s website!
Mustangmanbob. I really enjoyed reading your post. I wanted to address your one comment about the lack of cherry picking, etc.
I beg to differ with you concerning your point. If I could find a sealed First Strike box tomorrow of, say, five Margaret Taylor proofs ("in the wild" or anywhere else) I would know that how they graded out would greatly influence whether I made a lot of money on my buy or lost a lot. And, from the collector standpoint, whether I filled my 70FS hole from a "homemade" coin or not. No different than collecting anything and perhaps even more exciting.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Before any other comments, I need to ask - do you remember the 4-coin holders that were available when the first 4 Gold Spouses were issued in 2007? Does anyone know where a supply of nice 4-coin holders can be obtained?
I agree that it will be harder to embark on a complete set of the First Spouses as time goes by, but the fact that they are .999 gold will *always* make them somewhat desirable in spite of being scorned by many.
I disagreed with the Mint's original decision not to make either the Pres bucks or the First Spouse coins in silver. It would've made much more sense to have issued the precious metal coins together and in paired sets, along with the manganese-brass versions for circulation (as if they will ever circulate).
Regarding the quality of Gold First Spouses, the question of First Strike status is moot in my opinion. The only reality that First Strike imparts is the reality that the coin has never been resubmitted. It doesn't mean "first out of the die" or "sharper strike", but it is howver a master stroke of brand identification,, I grant you that. With .999 gold, it's not as difficult to strike a nice coin and the real issue is usually the post-strike handling (or mishandling). My observation is that most of the Gold Spouse coins are nicely-struck regardless.
On the question of rarity, mintages and melt survivors I believe that the market will have to speak before we will ever know which coins will be the keys for this series. This could take quite a few years. Nevertheless, the mintage numbers are low enough that it simply won't take much demand to spur some price increases. It may be true that the collector base is shrinking now, due to demographics but these types of trends don't last that long. A new collecting demographic will emerge when money starts looking for a new home - count on it.
I agree availability of funds and collecting priorities for other series have contributed to the declining mintages and general lack of interest in these coins, and that many are probably still in dealers' inventories. All of which seems to say that it will still be possible to complete a set if you're motivated to do so. The kicker is that before long, I suspect that we're going to see some of the Gold Spouses dry up. I doubt that anyone knows which ones will dry up first.
Like Dave Bowers always says, "collect what you like". I can't disagree.
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
When the series first rolled out in 2007, I knew I couldn't afford the 1/2 oz. gold price of admission, so I decided to settle for the 1st spouse medal series instead. My thought was that the $10 face value was offset by the larger diameter/portrait of the medals. Of course, the affordability was *the* main factor in my decision. Some of the reverses are quite nice. Some don't make a lick of sense without context, and some seem to be more clip-art than anything.
Overall, the series was a nice secondary collection that was affordable and complete-able with a unified theme. I bought the first two years myself and afterwards it was something I asked my wife for every Christmas. I purchased a Whitman Classic bookshelf album, and it made for a nice (gradually heavier) display and presentation.
When Christmas 2014 rolled around, the mint listed the medal set as sold out. My wife couldn't get it for me. Looking on Ebay later, I couldn't justify paying the premium over the initial $16 dollar issue price that sellers were asking, so I left it off my Christmas list next year. I haven't purchased the 2015 or 2016 sets.
The 2014 scarcity killed it for me. I have other series that I collect that include stoppers and high $$$ coins (relative to my coin budget of course - other posters mileage and budgets may vary). I wanted something that I could complete at a gradual pace where I didn't have to worry about first hour sellouts from the mint.
I am hoping to eventually fill out the album, but I am waiting for the 2014 set to go the way of the 1999 Statehood silver quarters. After the series is closed for a few years, I'll try backfill the holes I am missing while the crowd moves onto the next series. The series has a consistent obverse design, a variety of reverse designs, some quirks with the suffrage and liberty substitutions. There is also a big wrong reverse error that I've decided not to collect. I personally think the subject is slightly PC-dubious, but as a whole, the partial medal set I have looks good in an album.
jmski52 ... Excellent points. One comment (in a few parts) on the "First Strike" coins ...
1. I wanted there to be more focus on the First Strike aspect of these coins in this particular thread BECAUSE that aspect is seldom (if ever) spoken about in a fair debate (other than "I hate First Strike. It has nothing to do with the coins being struck first") . As OperationButter said ... all we hear is the same old stuff over and over again. I wanted to try to introduce some new content and perspective to the discussion and what better time to do so when 74 or so First Strike coins are coming up for auction and we will all be able to see exactly what "First Strike" adds or does not add to the value of these gold spouse coins. Perhaps it will add nothing as many believe that is the case. We will see soon enough.
2. As I have said before, I am not personally a big seller of these gold spouse coins at this time. In fact, close to 90% of the coins I own, I have not even asked my son Justin to picture or price on my website for the entire year he has worked with me (year ends in 4 weeks). A great customer needed two of the coins in PCGS 70FS and bought them from me last week. What did I do? I bought three more PCGS 70FS coins yesterday on the dealer network for my inventory. Inventory now +1 for the week. As I mentioned before, I believe I am currently the only dealer on the dealer network advertising to buy every PCGS 70FS spouse coin available other than the handful of spouse coins I am overloaded with quantity. I do not currently want NGC coins nor do I even want PCGS coins without First Strike (unless they are priced very attractively of course). Why? Simple ... First Strike is "what collectors want". The vast percentage of all gold spouse inquiries I receive involve collectors specifically asking for the First Strike coins. A number of times in the past, I would point out to the inquiring customer (and sometimes a newbie collector at that) that he could essentially purchase two non-FS coins for the price of a single FS coin! The typical answer I would receive from the customer ... "Well Mitch, if you want to keep the First Strike coins for yourself, just say so". If a customer wants Haagan Daz ice cream for premium money, sometimes it's tougher than you think to sell him even the Costco brand that is made by Haagan Daz (not that it is, but if it were) and not labeled as such.
Again, the interesting thing here is we will get to see exactly how little or how much the "First Strike" label adds to the underlying value of the coins when a true auction of the coins takes place in less than 4 weeks with no hype by the auction company (I assume) and all the coins selling with no reserve whatsoever.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Originally posted by: wondercoin Again, the interesting thing here is we will get to see exactly how little or how much the "First Strike" label adds to the underlying value of the coins when a true auction of the coins takes place in less than 4 weeks with no hype by the auction company (I assume) and all the coins selling with no reserve whatsoever.
Actually, we will find out how much the "First Strike" label adds to the underlying value of MS/PR70 coins. My experience is that "First Strike" adds little or no premium to coins graded 69 and below.
Which is fine with me, since I like the look of the flag label and prefer the less expensive 69 grade.
Here are my thoughts about the First Lady series -
#1. What is the melt value?
#2.
Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
"Actually, we will find out how much the "First Strike" label adds to the underlying value of MS/PR70 coins. My experience is that "First Strike" adds little or no premium to coins graded 69 and below.
Which is fine with me, since I like the look of the flag label and prefer the less expensive 69 grade."
Overdate: Agreed.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Based on my estimate a full set of these in PCGS 70 is about $115,000 in the current price guide adjusting for a few not there. A lot have been adjusted down over the past several months or years as gold has dipped. The gold melt value of the gold in a complete set is about $53,300 at prices as of this writing.
I don't know what they cost from the mint, as I did not track that for mint cost as I only basically collect modern 70's and either get them on my own submissions or from dealers.
My estimate is that over the last 10 years of this series it cost many people getting these over the years about $80,000 to get a complete set of 70's. There can only be about 140-150 complete sets of 70's based on the pops the way I see them. I will be interested in the Heritage auction, but my current guess is the full lots combined will sell for about $117,500 to $120,000 with commissions to Heritage and the seller net maybe close to $100 to $102k which would probably be a reasonable net profit considering. I do not plan to sell mine anytime soon as it is a long term thing for me or even for my estate, but in general I think they have upside over time better than most moderns.
Thanks Wondercoin for your more in depth details by year. I am enjoying your posts. If you have a contest of who will guess the value at auction, I just gave you and everyone else my estimates. Cheers
edited to say I basically consider all 70's the same and I am not including only first strikes which have an even lower pop as Wondercoin has already mentioned. Maybe I should get a couple from him to complete my FS set, but he seems to want to keep them all like Pokémon Go, (gotta catch em all) LOL
My estimate is that over the last 10 years of this series it cost many people getting these over the years about $80,000 to get a complete set of 70's.
While my set is not all 70s (i think im around 50% 70/69 ratio, and I did purchase and submit many myself) my total cost is around $65k. Im thinking that if one was to purchase 70 FS spouses as they came out, that number might be north of your $80k number, but I don't know for sure.
I keep hearing the repeated line that collectors prefer the proof spouses, but am I the only one who thinks the MS versions actually look better? I just like the matte finish of the MS coins and find that the lower mintages are a nice bonus.
OperationButter... Was your estimate through 2016 or 2015? Remember, this set at auction does not have the (6) coins just released by the Mint this year.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Just for basic information about this series: the purchase price of this series from the mint (i.e., raw), not counting s/h, was $63,183.26 for all of the issues, PR & MS.
*NB: Original amount ($61,963) corrected to this figure ($63,183.26) on 7/20; one issue (Jackson PR/MS) was omitted in my first calculation. My apology.
Originally posted by: Southcounty I keep hearing the repeated line that collectors prefer the proof spouses, but am I the only one who thinks the MS versions actually look better? I just like the matte finish of the MS coins and find that the lower mintages are a nice bonus.
For regular commems from the Mint, proofs typically outsell MS specimens by 2/1 to 3/1, despite being slightly more expensive. For every First Spouse currently available in both finishes, more proofs have sold than MS. This doesn't mean the MS coins are uncollectable, just that they are less popular. For me, the lack of contrast and total absence of mint luster detract heavily from the appeal of MS specimens. They have the same lifeless look as many circulation-strike coins that have been cleaned.
"Just for basic information about this series: the purchase price of this series from the mint (i.e., raw), not counting s/h, was $61,963.00 for all of the issues, PR & MS."
Thank you for that. I will incorporate that information in my future analysis.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Originally posted by: wondercoin At $1,331/oz. it looks like there is 41 ozs or $54,571 melt. With a cost of $61,963, it looks like roughly around 12% over melt for the collection?
Or, put another way, 88% of the value of the collection has a foundation of .9999 pure gold!
Wondercoin
Looking at APMEX today, they want an 8% premium over spot for $50 Gold Buffalos. So an extra 4% for a First Spouse collection isn't out of line.
I'm guessing a complete 1st Spouse collection in 70's probably costs an extra $15k - $18k over the issue price? So say it cost $80k to build it and if you can sell it for $140k I wish I did that.
But to have just bought them for $62k and kept them in the OGP, I can't see selling the set at much of a premium. I think a set of $50 Buffalos would have been a better investment IMHO.
I think the number of people who would spend say $75k today on a modern series would go with the $50 Buffalos over the 1st Spouse's.
Revised due to DPoole's adjustment (and new spot now listed as well) ...
At $1,317/oz. it looks like there is 41 ozs or $53,997 melt. With a cost of $63,183.26, it looks like roughly around 14.5% over melt for the collection?
Or, put another way, 85.5% of the value of the collection has a foundation of .9999 pure gold!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I'm not a fan of this series but I want to voice a couple parameters I don't think you are considering.
1. The price of gold has changed a lot over the series between 2007 and now. When the 2007 or 2009 or 2014 even spouse coins came out, gold was not priced where it is today and was in some cases very different.
2. Lost potential in holding these as opposed to the SPY. Since mid 08 the stock market has gone up unprecedently and the price of money has changed.
Just because someone put $61k into the series doesn't mean too much. Gotta account for lost gains in that huge stock market run up. As well as large swings in the price of gold since 8 years ago.
Just things I would consider.
Would be interesting to calculate what you'd have to sell for to break even on the series compared to investing in the SPY.
Thanks BackroadJunkie... I do not mean to be critical of our lawmakers. We generally have the best part of our government working for us in numismatics. It's merely the fact that there was not a provision for "re strikes" to be included in this series, even if at a later date. Then, at least , we might be better served by the legislators who legislate.
Totally... What if the $60,000 was put into oil futures or Canadian or Australian Dollars? Or, someone bet the ranch on the British pound going up? Did the coins perform better than the bottle of 1990 Chateau Petrus I bought (NOT) off the restaurant wine list for $13,228 plus tax and tip and drank in an hour? No joke... At the pool of my hotel there was a bottle on the menu for $250,000.00.
My point is we really need to compare "apples to apples". What other modern coins performed better or worse? What Classic coins performed better or worse than these spouse coins? Assuming anyone even wants to compare. Collectors often buy these for these fun and enjoyment. While other folks just like to drink fine wine. Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
One more time - does anyone know where to find the 4-coin holders that were available when the first 4 Gold Spouses were issued in 2007? Does anyone know where a supply of nice 4-coin holders can be obtained?
Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally
Gyro mac. Great job putting out those figures. And, they are mostly all accurate I believe. But, some may be off. I'll let you know which ones as I work through them.
The spouse coins are all live by the way at Heritage. Bidding has begun.
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Comments
epicjimi1: stop trolling!
again
imho
gyros
Your troll call is another's just the way it is. MHO.
Excuse me if it was made clear and I missed it. And here we have another one that wants to dictate who can make a comment. I was trying to be nice.... you, not so much. And I don't need the likes of you to tell me whether to add anything. Wondercoin answered my question (he's quite capable on his own) I thanked him then you think you're going to shut me up. You asked for it to get this way.... you got your wish. Please stay out of something that doesn't or wasn't concerning you.
Honestly, I think your slam at me is a bit much. Did it make you feel good?
As Dentuck notes, the raw or 69 grade Gold Spouse coins are really a hybrid between "bullion" and potentially scarce low mintage commemoratives. These is also little difference between the $5 Gold Commem. series in my view and these $10 Gold Spouse coins. There (the $5's), as with these spouse coins (the $10's), when you have a high mintage $5 Gold Commem., it simply trades at spot (or 1% back of spot) just like bullion. If and when it is determined that the "20,000" mintage 2007 coins are not readily available (perhaps due to the melts) then perhaps that is when these coins will lose their "bullion" perception.
Just my two cents.
Wondercoin
The latter (prezzie bucks) do look good in the album, too, might I add.
Unfortunately our legislators who foresaw the program , were not looking far enough ahead to see these holes in the sets, series or albums; much like the 2009 Silver American Eagle Proof dollars...
With that said.... One of these days, I hope to afford more, that I can pass down to the grandkids, because they're very collectible, to me. (unfinished hobbies, as they are)
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Dpoole... I agree with you.
Wondercoin.
Well, just Love coins, period.
Honestly, I really can’t think of a current running series that has been more hated than this series. Some board members have some good points as to how the series could have been better for one reason or another, but at this point, it doesn’t matter. Its time to stop blasting out the same comments over and over. The comments lack originality and they don’t add anything fresh to the conversation.
Now that the series has come to a close, flaws in all, and its time to do some reflection and analysis. While I won’t go into all my analysis on why I have been a purchaser of this series, I will put out a few comments to add to the thread. Based on the follow up I might post more.
The most obvious… Mintages. The mintages in this series are so small it really wouldn’t take much to move the prices upwards significantly. One dealer trying to promote would have a tough time finding any sizeable inventory without causing a spike in price. This might hurt the marketability in the short term, but I believe that will increase the values in the long term. To note, by long term I am thinking 30+ years out.
With respects to mintages, I think it will be EXTREMELY hard for anyone to find a reasonably priced example of a sub 2000 mintage coin within 10 years’ time. I’m not talking about the current (and probably soon to be unseated Queen) Roosevelt, I’m talking about ALL the sub 2000 mintage coins. Have you tried to backdate some of the fractional platinum recently? Its slim pickin’ out there, and when one does come up for sale (that isn’t all beat up) it doesn’t last long. 10-15 years out I think it will be nearly impossible to complete this set, regardless of the price of gold.
Liberty subset. We all know that these coins are beautiful. First spouse haters even like these coins. They are out there, never to be melted, always advertising for the series. Over time, the subset could bring in new collectors. Will all subset collectors pursue the entire set, not a chance. Remember, it doesn’t take much to move prices if demand changes, even slightly. 100 new entrants into other established or completed series is more than likely not enough to move price at all. 100 new entrants into the spouses, would be 5% of the current key’s population.
Just 100 people, almost comical. To think, its pretty amazing that if 2000 people in the entire world wanted to collect this series, its impossible for them to do so. In fact, they wont be locked out of 1 coin but potentially 5 coins. That is just CRAZY.
At the current pricing, if one wanted to buy any half oz of gold from the USM, essentially all options/series would be available at the same pricing (could change with centennials, but you get the picture). Why sink capital into the other gold offerings with mintages in the 10s of thousands if not higher, when they could grab some ultra low mintage gold. The $170 premium I mentioned earlier is the same between all these options. I speculate that the first spouse gold minted in the past 2 years will outperform the gold eagles in the long term. Time will tell if I’m wrong or not. I’m happy to have my set complete and just sitting and waiting, not scrambling to find these before they find permanent homes.
Just my opinion. Feel free to dissect and provide thoughtful feedback.
EDIT: Having to cut and paste my entire post by paragraph from word to the forum to get it to work is just stupid. This software is terrible.
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OperationButter ... I'll go a step further...
There are not even 75 people in the world right now that can own a complete set of Gold Spouse coins in top PCGS FS grade! And, as the coins get more widely dispersed over time, it may even get tougher and tougher to try to complete a collection.
And, congratulations on building your wonderful complete set of spouse coins over the past ten years! You now have a whopping 40 ozs. of (near) pure gold as the foundation for your collection.
Wondercoin
Hopefully, the US Mint will see the writing on the wall and scale back on the future number of new issues.
The Spouse program was mandated by law along with the Prezbuck series. Blame congress, not the mint.
PRESIDENTIAL $1 COIN ACT OF 2005
Edit: fixed link
The Mint did a big disservice, IMHO, by disrupting the Liberty subset with their Alice Paul issue for Chester A. Arthur's term. Another Liberty issue with a Seated Liberty or some such would have been gorgeous, and a great addition to the other four.
Believe it or not, this was a congressional mandate as well:
I never did a "follow the money" trail on these issues, but it probably would have been a fascinating exercise...
Plus, it bears noting that I love the gold spouses and their manganese brass counterparts. But, couldn't afford to keep up with the Gold Spouses, with trying to run a shop and liking the classics (Type Set collecting).
The latter (prezzie bucks) do look good in the album, too, might I add.
When this series first started, I did a quick calculation on how much the series would cost through the run of prezbucks, and it was far and above what I though was worthwhile.
I did buy the Jefferson liberties, but never had a desire to go beyond that.
With that said.... One of these days, I hope to afford more, that I can pass down to the grandkids, because they're very collectible, to me. (unfinished hobbies, as they are)
If you read the legislation, it reads like a normal bullion issue until you get to:
Had it not been for this inclusion, the FS series would have been a bullion issue. The reason I bring this up, is the 24K Buffalo was also mandated under the $1 Prezbuck legislation, and one of the findings listed was:
So part of this legislation was to force TreasSec into issuing 24k bullion, and cared nothing about collectors or sets. (Not that they ever do...)
Mitch, can you discuss the enabling legislation and why the series is closed? And, who does it stop with? When the currently living spouses dies, why would the series not continue?
I posted the enabling legislation above.
Gold FS sunsets by the following inclusion:
Paragraph (2)(E):
This series always amazed me in that the flippers faded out so fast. When the mint can sell out 10k platinum coins in an hour, but the last few years of first spouses can't break 2k over their selling period is astounding to me. Aside from the continuing expense, what caused the flippers to ignore these at the end? I would hazard a guess that there are maybe 500 actual collectors of these, with many coins residing in dealer stock and getting no traction. Can't think of another mint series that did this.
To answer the flippers question, there must be a demand before a flip works.
I have a complete set through T. Roosevelt, both MS & Proof. I only have two that have been graded. Basically I had other demands on my collecting money. I really don't believe in grading brand new mint products, and especially think that "first strike" is bogus.
If it for gold, then just plain bullion seems better
If collecting, to me, it is not collecting, but checkbook acquisition. They are never going to found in wild, and since there appears to be almost no difference between raw, PCGS 69 or 70, it is not like there is going to be a cherry pick. So they are not "found" just bought like Frosted Flakes at the grocery store, albeit an expensive box of cereal.
If expectation of future value on rarity, the "collapse" of the series in mintages would seem to portend something that will never have legs, especially since it takes 40 ounces of gold as the admission ticket.
Rare does not equal valuable or desirable. A 1974 Pinto 4 door Wagon with a 1.6 engine with a exterior color of Dysentery Brown and Baby Poo green interior may be rare, but not real desirable and the price will never be much higher that scrap steel.
Like most here, I can’t afford anything approaching a complete set, so I’ll be happy with a Liberty subset and a few that I like for historical interest or design quality.
The original boxes take up too much space for a single coin each, let alone an entire set. I prefer slabbed, preferably PCGS 69FS with the Flag label which (for the most part) have only slight premiums over raw.
Future collectors will favor the proofs, which are *much* more attractive than the uncs. The main thing the uncs have going for them are slightly lower mintages, but collector demand for them is lacking. Two of the scarcest ones, the 2014 Harding and Hoover, have likely mintages under 2000 and are still not sold out after more than a year and a half on the Mint’s website!
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
I beg to differ with you concerning your point. If I could find a sealed First Strike box tomorrow of, say, five Margaret Taylor proofs ("in the wild" or anywhere else) I would know that how they graded out would greatly influence whether I made a lot of money on my buy or lost a lot. And, from the collector standpoint, whether I filled my 70FS hole from a "homemade" coin or not. No different than collecting anything and perhaps even more exciting.
Wondercoin
I agree that it will be harder to embark on a complete set of the First Spouses as time goes by, but the fact that they are .999 gold will *always* make them somewhat desirable in spite of being scorned by many.
I disagreed with the Mint's original decision not to make either the Pres bucks or the First Spouse coins in silver. It would've made much more sense to have issued the precious metal coins together and in paired sets, along with the manganese-brass versions for circulation (as if they will ever circulate).
Regarding the quality of Gold First Spouses, the question of First Strike status is moot in my opinion. The only reality that First Strike imparts is the reality that the coin has never been resubmitted. It doesn't mean "first out of the die" or "sharper strike", but it is howver a master stroke of brand identification,, I grant you that. With .999 gold, it's not as difficult to strike a nice coin and the real issue is usually the post-strike handling (or mishandling). My observation is that most of the Gold Spouse coins are nicely-struck regardless.
On the question of rarity, mintages and melt survivors I believe that the market will have to speak before we will ever know which coins will be the keys for this series. This could take quite a few years. Nevertheless, the mintage numbers are low enough that it simply won't take much demand to spur some price increases. It may be true that the collector base is shrinking now, due to demographics but these types of trends don't last that long. A new collecting demographic will emerge when money starts looking for a new home - count on it.
I agree availability of funds and collecting priorities for other series have contributed to the declining mintages and general lack of interest in these coins, and that many are probably still in dealers' inventories. All of which seems to say that it will still be possible to complete a set if you're motivated to do so. The kicker is that before long, I suspect that we're going to see some of the Gold Spouses dry up. I doubt that anyone knows which ones will dry up first.
Like Dave Bowers always says, "collect what you like". I can't disagree.
I knew it would happen.
Overall, the series was a nice secondary collection that was affordable and complete-able with a unified theme. I bought the first two years myself and afterwards it was something I asked my wife for every Christmas. I purchased a Whitman Classic bookshelf album, and it made for a nice (gradually heavier) display and presentation.
When Christmas 2014 rolled around, the mint listed the medal set as sold out. My wife couldn't get it for me. Looking on Ebay later, I couldn't justify paying the premium over the initial $16 dollar issue price that sellers were asking, so I left it off my Christmas list next year. I haven't purchased the 2015 or 2016 sets.
The 2014 scarcity killed it for me. I have other series that I collect that include stoppers and high $$$ coins (relative to my coin budget of course - other posters mileage and budgets may vary). I wanted something that I could complete at a gradual pace where I didn't have to worry about first hour sellouts from the mint.
I am hoping to eventually fill out the album, but I am waiting for the 2014 set to go the way of the 1999 Statehood silver quarters. After the series is closed for a few years, I'll try backfill the holes I am missing while the crowd moves onto the next series. The series has a consistent obverse design, a variety of reverse designs, some quirks with the suffrage and liberty substitutions. There is also a big wrong reverse error that I've decided not to collect. I personally think the subject is slightly PC-dubious, but as a whole, the partial medal set I have looks good in an album.
1. I wanted there to be more focus on the First Strike aspect of these coins in this particular thread BECAUSE that aspect is seldom (if ever) spoken about in a fair debate (other than "I hate First Strike. It has nothing to do with the coins being struck first") . As OperationButter said ... all we hear is the same old stuff over and over again. I wanted to try to introduce some new content and perspective to the discussion and what better time to do so when 74 or so First Strike coins are coming up for auction and we will all be able to see exactly what "First Strike" adds or does not add to the value of these gold spouse coins. Perhaps it will add nothing as many believe that is the case. We will see soon enough.
2. As I have said before, I am not personally a big seller of these gold spouse coins at this time. In fact, close to 90% of the coins I own, I have not even asked my son Justin to picture or price on my website for the entire year he has worked with me (year ends in 4 weeks). A great customer needed two of the coins in PCGS 70FS and bought them from me last week. What did I do? I bought three more PCGS 70FS coins yesterday on the dealer network for my inventory. Inventory now +1 for the week. As I mentioned before, I believe I am currently the only dealer on the dealer network advertising to buy every PCGS 70FS spouse coin available other than the handful of spouse coins I am overloaded with quantity. I do not currently want NGC coins nor do I even want PCGS coins without First Strike (unless they are priced very attractively of course). Why? Simple ... First Strike is "what collectors want". The vast percentage of all gold spouse inquiries I receive involve collectors specifically asking for the First Strike coins. A number of times in the past, I would point out to the inquiring customer (and sometimes a newbie collector at that) that he could essentially purchase two non-FS coins for the price of a single FS coin! The typical answer I would receive from the customer ... "Well Mitch, if you want to keep the First Strike coins for yourself, just say so". If a customer wants Haagan Daz ice cream for premium money, sometimes it's tougher than you think to sell him even the Costco brand that is made by Haagan Daz (not that it is, but if it were) and not labeled as such.
Again, the interesting thing here is we will get to see exactly how little or how much the "First Strike" label adds to the underlying value of the coins when a true auction of the coins takes place in less than 4 weeks with no hype by the auction company (I assume) and all the coins selling with no reserve whatsoever.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
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Well, just Love coins, period.
Although once found, thankfully, not much competition....
Maybe in the short term. There is a reason that these sub 2000 mintages occurred. The conditions that caused this will not last forever.
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Again, the interesting thing here is we will get to see exactly how little or how much the "First Strike" label adds to the underlying value of the coins when a true auction of the coins takes place in less than 4 weeks with no hype by the auction company (I assume) and all the coins selling with no reserve whatsoever.
Actually, we will find out how much the "First Strike" label adds to the underlying value of MS/PR70 coins. My experience is that "First Strike" adds little or no premium to coins graded 69 and below.
Which is fine with me, since I like the look of the flag label and prefer the less expensive 69 grade.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
#1. What is the melt value?
#2.
Which is fine with me, since I like the look of the flag label and prefer the less expensive 69 grade."
Overdate: Agreed.
Wondercoin
I don't know what they cost from the mint, as I did not track that for mint cost as I only basically collect modern 70's and either get them on my own submissions or from dealers.
My estimate is that over the last 10 years of this series it cost many people getting these over the years about $80,000 to get a complete set of 70's. There can only be about 140-150 complete sets of 70's based on the pops the way I see them. I will be interested in the Heritage auction, but my current guess is the full lots combined will sell for about $117,500 to $120,000 with commissions to Heritage and the seller net maybe close to $100 to $102k which would probably be a reasonable net profit considering. I do not plan to sell mine anytime soon as it is a long term thing for me or even for my estate, but in general I think they have upside over time better than most moderns.
Thanks Wondercoin for your more in depth details by year. I am enjoying your posts. If you have a contest of who will guess the value at auction, I just gave you and everyone else my estimates.
Cheers
edited to say I basically consider all 70's the same and I am not including only first strikes which have an even lower pop as Wondercoin has already mentioned. Maybe I should get a couple from him to complete my FS set, but he seems to want to keep them all like Pokémon Go, (gotta catch em all) LOL
National Commemorative Medals of the U.S. Mint:
https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/u-s-coins/medals-tokens/national-commemorative-medals-united-states-mint-1940-present/alltimeset/195526
My estimate is that over the last 10 years of this series it cost many people getting these over the years about $80,000 to get a complete set of 70's.
While my set is not all 70s (i think im around 50% 70/69 ratio, and I did purchase and submit many myself) my total cost is around $65k. Im thinking that if one was to purchase 70 FS spouses as they came out, that number might be north of your $80k number, but I don't know for sure.
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If you have a contest of who will guess the value at auction
With juice, my guess is $147,777 for the entire collection.
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Seated Dollar Collection
Wondercoin.
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*NB: Original amount ($61,963) corrected to this figure ($63,183.26) on 7/20; one issue (Jackson PR/MS) was omitted in my first calculation. My apology.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
I keep hearing the repeated line that collectors prefer the proof spouses, but am I the only one who thinks the MS versions actually look better? I just like the matte finish of the MS coins and find that the lower mintages are a nice bonus.
For regular commems from the Mint, proofs typically outsell MS specimens by 2/1 to 3/1, despite being slightly more expensive. For every First Spouse currently available in both finishes, more proofs have sold than MS. This doesn't mean the MS coins are uncollectable, just that they are less popular. For me, the lack of contrast and total absence of mint luster detract heavily from the appeal of MS specimens. They have the same lifeless look as many circulation-strike coins that have been cleaned.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Thank you for that. I will incorporate that information in my future analysis.
Wondercoin
Or, put another way, 88% of the value of the collection has a foundation of .9999 pure gold!
Wondercoin
At $1,331/oz. it looks like there is 41 ozs or $54,571 melt. With a cost of $61,963, it looks like roughly around 12% over melt for the collection?
Or, put another way, 88% of the value of the collection has a foundation of .9999 pure gold!
Wondercoin
Looking at APMEX today, they want an 8% premium over spot for $50 Gold Buffalos.
So an extra 4% for a First Spouse collection isn't out of line.
I'm guessing a complete 1st Spouse collection in 70's probably costs an extra $15k - $18k over the issue price? So say it cost $80k to build it and if you can sell it for $140k I wish I did that.
But to have just bought them for $62k and kept them in the OGP, I can't see selling the set at much of a premium. I think a set of $50 Buffalos would have been a better investment IMHO.
I think the number of people who would spend say $75k today on a modern series would go with the $50 Buffalos over the 1st Spouse's.
Just my one cents worth.
At $1,317/oz. it looks like there is 41 ozs or $53,997 melt. With a cost of $63,183.26, it looks like roughly around 14.5% over melt for the collection?
Or, put another way, 85.5% of the value of the collection has a foundation of .9999 pure gold!
Wondercoin
1. The price of gold has changed a lot over the series between 2007 and now. When the 2007 or 2009 or 2014 even spouse coins came out, gold was not priced where it is today and was in some cases very different.
2. Lost potential in holding these as opposed to the SPY. Since mid 08 the stock market has gone up unprecedently and the price of money has changed.
Just because someone put $61k into the series doesn't mean too much. Gotta account for lost gains in that huge stock market run up. As well as large swings in the price of gold since 8 years ago.
Just things I would consider.
Would be interesting to calculate what you'd have to sell for to break even on the series compared to investing in the SPY.
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My point is we really need to compare "apples to apples". What other modern coins performed better or worse? What Classic coins performed better or worse than these spouse coins? Assuming anyone even wants to compare. Collectors often buy these for these fun and enjoyment. While other folks just like to drink fine wine. Wondercoin
Anyone have final mintage numbers for this series through 2014?
2007 Martha Washington 17661 19167
Abigail Adams 17142 17149
Jefferson's Liberty 19823 19815
Dolley Madison 12340 17943
2008 Elizabeth Monroe 4462 7800
Louisa Adams 3885 6581
Jackson's Liberty 4609 7684
Van Buren's Liberty 3826 6807
2009 Anna Harrison 3645 6251
Letitia Tyler 3240 5296
Julia Tyler 3143 4844
Sarah Polk 3489 5151
Margaret Taylor 3627 4936
2010 Abigail Fillmore 3482 6130
Jane Pierce 3338 4775
Buchanan's Liberty 5162 7110
Mary Todd Lincoln 3695 6861
2011 Eliza Johnson 2905 3887
Julia S. Grant 2892 3943
Lucy Hayes 2196 3868
Lucretia Garfield 2168 3653
2012 Alice Paul 2798 3505
Frances Cleveland (1st Term) 2454 3158
Carloline Harrison 2436 3046
Frances Cleveland (2nd Term) 2425 3104
2013 Ida McKinley 2015 2801
Edith Roosevelt 2070 2890
Helen Taft 1993 2598
Ellen Wilson 1980 2511
Edith Wilson 1974 2464
2014 Florence Harding 1920 2372
Grace Coolidge 1949 2395
Lou Hoover 1908 2392
Anna Eleanor Roosevelt 1909 2378
I knew it would happen.
The spouse coins are all live by the way at Heritage. Bidding has begun.
Wondercoin.