Now That The Series Is Just About "Closed", Does Anyone Want To Talk About Gold Spouse Coins

wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
If you are not a fan of Gold Spouse coins, I understand. But, please don't participate in this thread. This thread is intended for a serious discussion on the series from those out there that love or enjoy the coins (and, in particular, the PCGS graded coins). Comments like "I don't like the hags" have no place here. They add nothing to the discussion.

First, I mentioned on another thread that for the first time ever, a major auction house will auction off a complete collection of PCGS "70" grade Mint State and Proof "First Strike" coins from 2007-2015. The set is the complete collection other than the final three coins being offered by the Mint right now from 2016. That auction is the Heritage August, 2016 Anaheim Auction. The coins belong to a long time board member and I wish him the very best with the sale.

This coin series has produced the lowest mintage Type coins by the US Mint in the past 100+ years! For the next couple weeks ahead of the sale, I plan to share some interesting facts about the PCGS 70 grade First Strike coins in this thread. I look forward to a meaningful discussion on the coins. I might even run a contest ahead of the Heritage auction - we'll see.

But, first, let's talk about the 2007 First Strike coins.

Beginning on June 19, 2007, the 2007 Washington and Adams Mint State and Proof coins were sold on a limited basis to households, but the US Mint still managed to sell out quickly nearly all the coins (20,000 Mint State and Proof examples of these two coins totaling 80,000 coins)! The initial Mint issue prices were $410.95 on the Mint State coins and $429.95 on the Proof coins. This is remarkable when you consider that just a few years later, the Mint then had trouble selling just 3,000 or so coins of each spouse in both Mint State and Proof.

PCGS has graded a whopping 2,098 PR69DCAM First Strike and 435 PR70DCAM First Strike Martha Washington coins as well as 1,023 PR69DCAM First Strike and 228 PR70DCAM First Strike Abigail Adams coins!

Then, things got just as crazy when the Mint on August 30, 2007 sold off the Jefferson Liberty coins (at the same prices) and sold them out quickly as well. Jefferson did not have a wife in office and, hence, the "Liberty Spouse" design. These first three gold spouse coins (Washington, Adams and Jefferson Liberty) were among the fastest Mint sellouts of a product in history at the time back in 2007 (if the Mint could have only seen the future of the 8 minute sell out of the 2015-W $100 Proof Platinum coin to come)! PCGS has graded 1,409 PR69DCAM First Strike and 623 PR70DCAM First Strike Jefferson Liberty spouse coins!

But, the strict household limits (and the enthusiasm for the series) started taking its toll when the fourth spouse came up for sale on November 19, 2007 - Dolley Madison. Due to a rising gold spot price, the Mint priced the coins nearly $100 higher than the earlier 2007 examples ($509.95 for the Mint State and $529.95 for the Proof coins). Sales were softer (around 18,000 or so on the proofs and only around 12,500 on the Mint State coins, but still very strong by today's standards) and submissions crashed down as well. In fact, PCGS has only graded 253 PR69DCAM First Strike and 131 PR70DCAM First Strike Madison coins to this day.

Many of the 2007 coins in the top grade of "70" with "First Strike" do not sell for large premiums to the raw coins. The Jefferson Liberty Spouse coins do command a decent premium, however, as does the Madison Proof coin. The Dolley Madison PR70DCAM FS coin "pop" of just 131 coins results in the coin seldom coming up for auction (especially problem free without spots). In fact, believe it or not, if my records are correct, in nearly 10 years Heritage NEVER auctioned off a single PR70DCAM FS Dolley Madison coin!

The coin set coming up next month will contain the first Madison PR70DC FS to ever sell at Heritage! Since GC started in the auction business, I believe they auctioned off a total of (4) Madison PR70DCAM FS all between $917.77 and $1,000 hammer (with the last sale at $917.77 hammer about (60) days ago). It should be very interesting to see what the Heritage example brings next month.

In the early going, demand for the PR70DCAM FS Washington and Adams coins (and MS70FS coins) was very strong and the coins sold for a huge premium to the PR69DCAM coins (hitting record highs of nearly $2,000/coin for these). Those premiums have since dwindled down significantly.

Collectors who started with the 2007 coins got a nice treat when Gold spot tested around $1,900/oz a few years ago as these 2007 coins sold from the Mint at under $425 each back in mid-2007. So, collectors did have a chance to more than double their money even on the low grade examples if they sold out at a few years later. Even at today's gold spot level, buyers of these early spouse coins are in pretty good shape if they want to even sell them off for "melt".

The "true" mintages today on these 2007 spouse coins are very uncertain. On March 10, 2008, Coin World reported that a major National coin dealer melting thousands of these 2007 spouse coins into gold bars. The national dealer had "identified little or no retail demand" for the coins and then decided the best option was to melt those spouse coins into gold bars. Just this single action alone may have removed upwards of about 5%-10% of the entire 2007 mintage on Washington and Adams coins (and possibly some Jefferson or Madison coins as well)!

2008 Gold Spouse Coins:

The Mint initiated sales on the 5th Spouse coin, Elizabeth Monroe, on 02/02/08 at the Mint Issue Price of $616 for the Mint State coin and $629 for the Proof. This was followed by the 6th Spouse coin, Louisa Adams on 05/29/08 at the same price points. I believe the Mint once again had a limit on the E. Monroe coins, which hurt overall sales. The final Mintage figures came in at just 4,462 MS and 7,800 Proof for Monroe and an even lower 3,885 Mint State and 6,581 Proof on L. Adams! To make matters worse, these two coins, and especially the proof versions of the Monroe and Adams often came from the Mint with small red copper spots that negatively impacted the grading results. As of today, PCGS has only graded 98 L. Adams coins in MS70FS and just a scant 73 in PR70DCAM FS! The E. Monroe proof has just 110 coins in the PR70DCAM FS grade as well. Hence, the L. Adams coins are one of the keys in the entire series in 70 FS grade and the record price for a PR70DC FS has already exceeded $3,000 (not bad for a $629 coin plus grading fee).

Another interesting thing was that within about a year or so of these two coins having their sales shut down by the Mint, a large CCE dealer started making very strong bids for these (4) coins and especially the E. Monroe and L. Adams proofs. Due to the Mint limit on the E. Monroe, the coins became widely dispersed. But, unlike the widely dispersed proof coins in 2007, the E. Monroe had a mintage of less than 8,000 coins as compared to 12,500-20,000 for the first 4 proof coins of 2007. I suspect the coins were needed for an early gold spouse promotion (and very difficult to obtain in quantity) and the price of raw E. Monroe coins rose sharply in addition to nice moves to the other 3 Monroe and Adams coins as well. Unfortunately, this particular CCE dealer passed away a year or so later and no one carried on with the strong spouse bids for these early 2008 coins (that have now sank to near "common" levels). While by today's standards these coins appear to be nothing but "commons", at the time back in 2008 and early 2009, they were the "keys" to the spouse set! And, yes, chasing "keys" has been the real downfall for many in this series and likely resulted in more than a few collectors and investors "throwing in the towel" to continuing on with the collection.

Jackson and Van Buren Liberty coins of 2008 finish off the year and will be discussed next.

As always, just my two cents.

Wondercoin


Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
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Comments

  • lordmarcovanlordmarcovan Posts: 41,271 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I don't have any- can't afford the price of admission. image



    I'm not a hater, though. As an Adams descendant, I thought about adding one of those to my Box of 20, but for that kind of money, I ended up buying historical old gold instead.



    It'll be interesting to see what these do over the long term.
  • gyromacgyromac Posts: 212 ✭✭
    if i remember correctly. the limit was 20 coins/household for the first 2 spouse's across all options, 4 coins issued the same day. the price was something close to $400/coin, one of the first "no mail order" accepted issues. the USM website crashed in 5 minutes. the phones were busy for days and it was one of the first "over-subscribed" issues the USM had. it was the beginnings of the the modern day "flipper". as quickly as the price of a PCGS70 rose it crashed.

    fun times!

    imho

    gyros
  • JedPlanchetJedPlanchet Posts: 857 ✭✭✭
    Went with the medals instead of gold so that I could get an affordable complete series.
    Whatever you are, be a good one. ---- Abraham Lincoln
  • GritsManGritsMan Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    This is good timing to talk about this series. I only bought three or four of these--and sold at least one of them--but am curious about what the series will do. I never get as excited about coins when most of their value seems to lie in the paper labels slapped on top of them, but the low mintages make them intriguing to say the least. Personally, I don't think the series will ever take off. My reasons for guessing this is:
    1) In general, they just aren't very good-looking coins (tho there are a few exceptions).
    2) The base of serious coin collectors has been shrinking and I see no reasons why it will rebound.
    3) The series is too large and overwhelming to attract new collectors.
    That said, the mintages are so low that it wouldn't take much to throw my predictions out the window. A big drop in gold, for instance. Perhaps a couple of women presidents. The eradication of Pokemon.
    I will follow this thread with interest.
    Sneed
    Winner of the Coveted Devil Award June 8th, 2010
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Gyros. Thanks for that information regarding the distribution of the coins.

    Actually, this may have been the second "oversubscribed" issue. Let's not forget the special 20th Anniv. Gold set from the year earlier that the Mint priced at around $2,600/set with a limit of (10) sets. A $26,000 charge to your credit card was worth around $50,000+ before the monthly bill was even due in most cases as I recall!

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Jed... That was a very reasonable strategy to enjoy the collection! Wondercoin.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • MarkMark Posts: 3,285 ✭✭✭✭
    Mitch:



    I recall the mint's very stupid decision about these coins that managed to shoot itself in the foot. Initially the mint was going to allow subscriptions for the Spouse coins. You would sign up and, like their other subscriptions, the mint would automatically deliver the coin(s) to you. After opening the subscriptions, the mint soon realized that effectively all of the coins would be sold using subscriptions. So the mint unilaterally canceled all the subscriptions and told everyone to take their chance when the coins went on sale. I had subscribed and was eager to collect a set to give to my daughter in the abstract thought that it might convince her coins were neat. I was unable to buy either of the first two coins--too slow and I was working at the moments when they first went on sale. After paying much higher prices in the secondary market, that was enough to discourage me. I have not purchased any since the first year. I probably would have kept my subscription and purchased them all if the mint hadn't decided to cancel them.

    Mark



    image
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,545 ✭✭✭✭
    So how much would it have cost to build a complete set (separating both proof and MS) for the series at the Mint issue prices?

    And what would the current value be at today's spot price?

    It seems overall you would have lost money.

    From 2007-2010 would be profitable today, but post 2010 would have lost money as far as just melt value is concerned.

    image
  • kiyotekiyote Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭✭
    I remember there being crazy, crazy excitement for these coins when the first few came out but it seemed like it fizzled after Jefferson's Liberty. I think the melting/scrapping of these coins is still going on. I don't have to much to add about these early coins in the series as I don't have any yet. I do think popularity of certain spouses will mean more to establishing keys than mintage alone. I only have one spouse, a PCGS MS70 FS Coolidge coin but plan on getting more later.
    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 10,880 ✭✭✭
    Not a Gold Spouse Coin specific comment but a general comment over the US Mint going the way of the Royal Canada Mint.



    Too many new issues which waters down the interest and demand of the new US Mint products. This includes the Gold Spouse Coin issue.



    I call it the "Canadiazation" of the US Mint.

    This means that new issues become scarcer and rarer yet the values of such issues do not reflect their rarity since the the demand is getting even lighter.



    Hopefully, the US Mint will see the writing on the wall and scale back on the future number of new issues.
    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Oreville. They did scale back with Platinum coins. In 2006-2008, we had up to thirteen different coins per year if you recall. Since then, just one or two for the entire year. And, last year, the one coin had the lowest proof mintage in history resulting in just 3,880 coins or so with the date "2015" on a U.S. platinum coin! The Mint got the message and the result was a $1,200 mint issue price coin worth about $3,600 minimum in less than a year in the 70 grade where about half the coins show graded (so much for the theory that all ultra moderns drop). One with a better insert looks like it recently sold on eBay for at least around $6,000 or a 400% rise in less than year. That's a serious increase to a "4 digit" priced coin in the first place (and makes up for a lot of losers along the way).

    Very good point oreville!

    Wondercoin.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Topographic Oceans... I will try to add that up as I go along discussing gold spouse years. But, bear in mind, while many of the 2011-date coins had the highest US Mint cost out of the box, they also had by far the lowest Mintages overall. So, your comment about possibly losing money would assume a collector tossing in these low pop coins in the "scrap" pile along with the 2007's for an immediate sale. But, barring a "fire sale" that just "ain't gonna happen" until we possibly see gold break around $2,000/oz. at which point nearly all of the coins in question will also be in profit territory.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • epcjimi1epcjimi1 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭
    BST Spouse ad posing as discussion.

    "'ll talk about the 2008 gold spouse / Liberty coins next, but does anyone have any neat stories about their 2007 gold Spouse purchases or sales?"

    Can't wait.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Epcj... I'll talk about 2008, etc. when I get around to writing that section and others. It takes more than 15 minutes to "whip up" the yearly stories. On top of that, I am delighted that an entire 9 year set of PCGS coins is heading to the auction block for the first time and I plan to talk about the coins for the next few weeks ahead of the big sale.

    If a complete Saint set was put up for sale, I am sure you would enjoy reading stories about all the various dated coins. Since these are just Spouse coins, I guess you feel differently. Me, personally, I am currently a strong buyer of these PCGS First Strike gold spouse coins. In fact, quite possibly the Only current advertised buyer of these coins on the dealer network. I will likely not be aggressively considering the sale of even a small meaningful percentage of my spouse coins for years or until we see roughly $2,000+/oz. gold, whichever comes first. If the owner of the Heritage set does well and in some small, small way my thread leads someone to buy a coin in that auction, then great for him!

    Wondercoin.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,545 ✭✭✭✭
    I found this at CoinNews.net but they lost interest after 2011.

    The format doesn't import cleanly into Excel so I don't have totals, but from 2007 to 2011 they range from $410 - $991 in uncirculated and $429 - $1004 for proofs.
  • dpooledpoole Posts: 5,243 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I acquired the entire series (PR/MS) singly from the Mint as they were issued, but have kept them raw and have not submitted them for grading. The Mint had substantial mark-ups over melt, I wasn't planning on doing any short-term sales or flips, and I haven't wanted to dig a deeper hole for my self financially with submission fees. I can always submit them for 70s later if that designation continues to be a big deal over the long term (I'm willing to bet that eventually, the FS designation will not). Since they're gold, I calculated that at least there's a floor to these issues (i.e., melt), and there is the long-term possibility of a numismatic premium. Obscure series do come in and out of favor for no reason other than they become a short-term point of fascination for a group of people. At such times, the FS's relative scarcity may matter.



    "The trouble with quotes on the Internet is you never know if they are true"--Abe Lincoln



    Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...



  • epcjimi1epcjimi1 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭
    OK, here's the deal, you make my head hurt 70% of the time.

    Last we dealt, I got a 70 ASE with red lint in the PCGS slab and we exchanged for replacement.

    That I had to mess with replacement for red lint in a pcgs 70 slab, speaks for itself.

    edit: I do have signature series 2011 ASE that I bought from you after that fiasco, I'm smarter now.

    Good luck with the spouses, I'm out.

    MHO

    Originally posted by: wondercoin
    Epcj... I'll talk about 2008, etc. when I get around to writing that section and others. It takes more than 15 minutes to "whip up" the yearly stories. On top of that, I am delighted that an entire 9 year set of PCGS coins is heading to the auction block for the first time and I plan to talk about the coins for the next few weeks ahead of the big sale.

    If a complete Saint set was put up for sale, I am sure you would enjoy reading stories about all the various dated coins. Since these are just Spouse coins, I guess you feel differently. Me, personally, I am currently a strong buyer of these PCGS First Strike gold spouse coins. In fact, quite possibly the Only current advertised buyer of these coins on the dealer network. I will likely not be aggressively considering the sale of even a small meaningful percentage of my spouse coins for years or until we see roughly $2,000+/oz. gold, whichever comes first. If the owner of the Heritage set does well and in some small, small way my thread leads someone to buy a coin in that auction, then great for him!

    Wondercoin.


  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Thank you epcjimi1. I feel the same way as you when I get red lint (or other microscopic debris) in a PCGS slab. But, they are only human over there. And, the replacement coin I got for you looked "great" (your words) which is all that matters. Not to mention that was 4 1/2 years ago!

    And, I am sorry I could not purchase the coin you offered me less than a year ago that you had just purchased from the Mint for your exact asking price. I was paying $15 less to everyone here on the boards and I wanted to be consistent with my buy price level. I would have liked to do another deal with you and hopefully we can do one in the near future. If I am going to make your head hurt 70% of the time, we should at least do one deal every five years! LOL.

    Now, back to spouse talk...

    Wondercoin

    edited after your edit ...
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • 3stars3stars Posts: 781 ✭✭✭✭
    If you are not a fan of Gold Spouse coins, I understand. But, please don't participate in this thread. This thread is intended for a serious discussion on the series from those out there that love or enjoy the coins (and, in particular, the PCGS graded coins). Comments like "I don't like the hags" have no place here. They add nothing to the discussion.

    Heaven forbid somebody not like these... You can still have a serious discussion with dissenting opinions.
    Previous transactions: Wondercoin
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    3 Stars... With all due respect, this thread is NOT intended to see who likes and who dislikes Spouse coins and have a discussion about that. This thread is intended for only those members who love or enjoy spouse coins (or want to learn more about them) who will benefit from reading about the series and the stories and details I plan to provide. Plain and simple. No one has to read my thread ... folks who have no interest in these stories and details can simply ignore my thread. I was totally clear and upfront from literally the first paragraph on what I intended to do in this thread.

    I am fine having a separate thread on these boards discussing who loves and hates the series. Although, I think we have had myriad threads on that already.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,593 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I have these 4 ...

    image
  • kiyotekiyote Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: oreville
    Not a Gold Spouse Coin specific comment but a general comment over the US Mint going the way of the Royal Canada Mint.

    Too many new issues which waters down the interest and demand of the new US Mint products. This includes the Gold Spouse Coin issue.

    I call it the "Canadiazation" of the US Mint.
    This means that new issues become scarcer and rarer yet the values of such issues do not reflect their rarity since the the demand is getting even lighter.


    That's a valid point. The Canadian mint is cranking out gold coins with mintages of 300-900 now. If it was just a mintages game I'd go south of the border. But I don't really want a tufted Woodpecker on a coin even if they only made 300 of them.

    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • kiyotekiyote Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: baseball
    I really don't understand why people who don't like these coins should have to refrain from participating. I think readers would like a more balanced perspective instead of just a one-sided view on the subject matter. I for one don't like or dislike them but would love to hear everyone's thoughts. On a couple of occasions, I've had thoughts (not that serious) or making a run at the set). I agree that those who dissent should do so from a perspective of adding to the discussion and expressing their reasons for not liking them, and I think most have done just that.

    Otherwise, you're just using this place as a promotional forum. It's EASY for collectors to buy into hypes. And all too many collectors are finicky and impulsive. I would hate for even ONE collector to go out and buy these just because everyone decided to talk them up here with only a "positive" perspective, only for the collector to regret their decision down the road.



    There's a guy on here notorious for modern bashing, but I don't feel compelled to jump into every post he does with a "dimes are too small, stick with dollars" post. It adds nothing.

    A more serious dissenting voice would be where did the mint go wrong, why are they so unpopular, how can this be avoided in the future.



    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • kiyotekiyote Posts: 4,822 ✭✭✭✭
    You could make another subset of spouse coins with mintages under 2,000.
    "I'll split the atom! I am the fifth dimension! I am the eighth wonder of the world!" -Gef the talking mongoose.
  • 3stars3stars Posts: 781 ✭✭✭✭
    Baseball, couldn't agree more. This series has been a dog with so many issues that the mint and collectors alike can learn from. Just limiting it to the very few positives gets us nowhere. Public message boards, after all, aren't owned by the posters, but the company that provides it.
    Previous transactions: Wondercoin
  • thebigengthebigeng Posts: 5,771 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mitch I appreciate this thread and also am looking forward to the sale and what lays ahead for this series.
    “Remember that sometimes not getting what you want is a wonderful stroke of luck.” ~ Dalai Lama
  • 3stars3stars Posts: 781 ✭✭✭✭
    And just to clarify, I'm not having a go at wondercoin, he's a pro and knows his stuff. I just think you need to look at both sides of the coin (so to speak) to have a proper discussion of a series. True, comments such as I hate this series do nothing to further knowledge, but comments on poor design choices or something related to the series low popularity would be interesting and helpful, along with the positives.
    Previous transactions: Wondercoin
  • TomBTomB Posts: 15,415 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I was one of the folks who ordered a subscription of the series through the US Mint prior to their unilateral withdrawal of that option.



    I then went to the US Mint website the day of the sale of the Washington and Adams coins and, prior to the sale opening, loaded up my shopping cart as a test to see how the process worked. It worked so well that when I hit "Submit Order" it processed my order and checked me out a full nine minutes prior to the opening of the sale! I ordered on Tuesday and received the coins that Thursday and had them sold by Saturday. It was great.



    By the way, I like the Liberty subset and wish that it included five coins instead of four.
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • stmanstman Posts: 10,996 ✭✭✭✭
    First, I mentioned on another thread that for the first time ever, a major auction house will auction off a complete collection of PCGS "70" grade Mint State and Proof "First Strike" coins from 2007-2015. The set is the complete collection other than the final three coins being offered by the Mint right now from 2016. That auction is the Heritage August, 2016 Anaheim Auction. The coins belong to a long time board member and I wish him the very best with the sale. This coin series has produced the lowest mintage Type coins by the US Mint in the past 100+ years! For the next couple weeks ahead of the sale, I plan to share some interesting facts about the PCGS 70 grade First Strike coins in this thread. I look forward to a meaningful discussion on the coins. I might even run a contest ahead of the Heritage auction - we'll see.




    I guess with all this said, I'm sorry but I have to ask if you have anything to do with this sale? The reason I ask is you do mention on here that you do a lot of consignments for board members.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • claychaserclaychaser Posts: 4,378 ✭✭✭✭
    Mitch, can you discuss the enabling legislation and why the series is closed? And, who does it stop with? When the currently living spouses dies, why would the series not continue?


    ==Looking for pre WW2 Commems in PCGS Rattler holders, 1851-O Three Cent Silvers in all grades



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  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    3Stars. I totally agree with your last comment.

    When I get home later tonight, I will follow up with the discussion. The San Clemente pier is just too beautiful to leave right now! Wondercoin.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • 3stars3stars Posts: 781 ✭✭✭✭
    This series always amazed me in that the flippers faded out so fast. When the mint can sell out 10k platinum coins in an hour, but the last few years of first spouses can't break 2k over their selling period is astounding to me. Aside from the continuing expense, what caused the flippers to ignore these at the end? I would hazard a guess that there are maybe 500 actual collectors of these, with many coins residing in dealer stock and getting no traction. Can't think of another mint series that did this.

    Previous transactions: Wondercoin
  • Jackthecat1Jackthecat1 Posts: 1,122 ✭✭✭
    I like some of the designs but since they are not my collecting focus I just purchase the bronze medals that I find attractive. I owned one of the gold coins but sold it for a profit when gold went up. If I wasn't paying for my daughter's college tuition I would probably own several of this series.
    Member ANS, ANA, GSNA, TNC



    image
  • StoogeStooge Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would imagine that the populations for these are way off now, as there was a company such Silvertown that was melting thousands of these right out of the boxes to use the pure gold for other projects.

    Later, Paul.
  • 3stars3stars Posts: 781 ✭✭✭✭
    Proof that low mintages do not equal rare or desirable. Whoever commented about the Canadian mint not being able to sell coins with mintages in the hundreds was spot on.
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  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Paul: Check out my comment two paragraphs from the bottom in my original discussion in the first post. image

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    2008 Gold Spouse Coins:

    The Mint initiated sales on the 5th Spouse coin, Elizabeth Monroe, on 02/02/08 at the Mint Issue Price of $616 for the Mint State coin and $629 for the Proof. This was followed by the 6th Spouse coin, Louisa Adams on 05/29/08 at the same price points. I believe the Mint once again had a limit on the E. Monroe coins, which hurt overall sales. The final Mintage figures came in at just 4,462 MS and 7,800 Proof for Monroe and an even lower 3,885 Mint State and 6,581 Proof on L. Adams! To make matters worse, these two coins, and especially the proof versions of the Monroe and Adams often came from the Mint with small red copper spots that negatively impacted the grading results. As of today, PCGS has only graded 98 L. Adams coins in MS70FS and just a scant 73 in PR70DCAM FS! The E. Monroe proof has just 110 coins in the PR70DCAM FS grade as well. Hence, the L. Adams coins are one of the keys in the entire series in 70 FS grade and the record price for a PR70DC FS has already exceeded $3,000 (not bad for a $629 coin plus grading fee).

    Another interesting thing was that within about a year or so of these two coins having their sales shut down by the Mint, a large CCE dealer started making very strong bids for these (4) coins and especially the E. Monroe and L. Adams proofs. Due to the Mint limit on the E. Monroe, the coins became widely dispersed. But, unlike the widely dispersed proof coins in 2007, the E. Monroe had a mintage of less than 8,000 coins as compared to 12,500-20,000 for the first 4 proof coins of 2007. I suspect the coins were needed for an early gold spouse promotion (and very difficult to obtain in quantity) and the price of raw E. Monroe coins rose sharply in addition to nice moves to the other 3 Monroe and Adams coins as well. Unfortunately, this particular CCE dealer passed away a year or so later and no one carried on with the strong spouse bids for these early 2008 coins (that have now sank to near "common" levels). While by today's standards these coins appear to be nothing but "commons", at the time back in 2008 and early 2009, they were the "keys" to the spouse set! And, yes, chasing "keys" has been the real downfall for many in this series and likely resulted in more than a few collectors and investors "throwing in the towel" to continuing on with the collection.

    Jackson and Van Buren Liberty coins of 2008 finish off the year and will be discussed next.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • StoogeStooge Posts: 4,388 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: wondercoin
    Paul: Check out my comment two paragraphs from the bottom in my original discussion in the first post. image

    Wondercoin


    I'm sorry I hadn't read this entire thread. I usually do and will because I find it fascinating.

    Thanks for the info, but was it just 2007? Is it still happening to this day?

    Later, Paul.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Good question Paul. I am not sure whether gold spouse coins were melted since 2008 and to what extent. Maybe someone can shed some light on that question?

    By the way, Eric Jordan in his "Modern Commemorative Coins" book states that about 10,000 total spouse coins were melted between 2007-2008 (in line with what I have stated here). Eric obviously was also not aware of any additional "melts" in 2009 or 2010.

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • orevilleoreville Posts: 10,880 ✭✭✭
    Wondercoin,



    Our mutual friend Bob F., as you know, was gung ho on the Gold Spousal Coins long after I petered out at the Jefferson Libs but even he got exhausted after the Garfield issues and kind of faded away as well.



    Was this a common ocurrence near the end of the 19th century?



    A Collectors Universe poster since 1997!
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Oreville. It was a common occurrence long before the end of the 19th Century! Lol. Most folks did not make it anywhere near Garfield! Tell Bob F. that he gave it a great run!

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • GritsManGritsMan Posts: 2,649 ✭✭✭
    Two good questions, Baseball. I don't feel strongly about the first. For many people, they are bullion, after all. As far as the second, I feel that some of the coins will stand out--the liberties, of course, and the more popular First Ladies. For the vast majority, however, I'm guessing they will always be viewed as part of a massive set--akin to the Franklin Mint medal collections released in the Sixties and Seventies. (In fact, someone should come up with a case to hold all of the capsules together.) It's just hard to imagine someone getting excited about, say, the Coolidge coin fifty years from now, even if it had one of the lowest pops in the series.
    Winner of the Coveted Devil Award June 8th, 2010
  • stmanstman Posts: 10,996 ✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: Wondercoin

    First, I mentioned on another thread that for the first time ever, a major auction house will auction off a complete collection of PCGS "70" grade Mint State and Proof "First Strike" coins from 2007-2015. The set is the complete collection other than the final three coins being offered by the Mint right now from 2016. That auction is the Heritage August, 2016 Anaheim Auction. The coins belong to a long time board member and I wish him the very best with the sale. This coin series has produced the lowest mintage Type coins by the US Mint in the past 100+ years! For the next couple weeks ahead of the sale, I plan to share some interesting facts about the PCGS 70 grade First Strike coins in this thread. I look forward to a meaningful discussion on the coins. I might even run a contest ahead of the Heritage auction - we'll see.






    Originally posted by stman

    I guess with all this said, I'm sorry but I have to ask if you have anything to do with this sale? The reason I ask is you do mention on here that you do a lot of consignments for board members.



    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 15,571 ✭✭✭✭
    Stman - Of course, I made sure our resident board member got the very best deal possible in consigning this fabulous PCGS Gold Spouse set to a major auction. He purchased most of these coins from many other different dealers, but I was happy to assist him. You might be very surprised how much a dealer can help a collector in realizing the very best deal on his coins at a major public auction. And, you are right - I think I have assisted board members with selling off upwards of two or three dozen different spectacular classic and modern coin sets over the years (including many Hall of Fame sets). No upgrading needed on this set of 70's though image

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • stmanstman Posts: 10,996 ✭✭✭✭
    Wondercoin - I'm well aware a dealer can get great terms at major auction. And I agree it's a nice gesture on your part to spend your time on it, and your time on here and expect nothing but feeling good about the whole thing.image Just wanted to ask is all. And thanks for your reply.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • DentuckDentuck Posts: 3,749 ✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: baseball
    I was just checking out my Redbook and noticed that these coins are categorized in their "Bullion" section. Anyone else think that is an inappropriate classification? Also, what do people think of the long term viability of 70 coins versus just the coin itself (as they are all pristine regardless)?


    image

  • epcjimi1epcjimi1 Posts: 3,491 ✭✭✭
    Spouse prices up, down or promoting?

    Ed Mcmahon and Karnac want to know.

    Obviously never pay you a complement, you'll try to flip it sooner or later.

    Originally posted by: wondercoin
    2008 Gold Spouse Coins:

    While by today's standards these coins appear to be nothing but "commons", at the time back in 2008 and early 2009, they were the "keys" to the spouse set! Wondercoin



    It's eight years later, prices haven't changed much from $616 and $629

    "Elizabeth Monroe, on 02/02/08 at the Mint Issue Price of $616 for the Mint State coin and $629 for the Proof."

    Last ebay completed sales for "monroe spouse"

    2008-W $10 1/2 Oz Proof Gold First Spouse Elizabeth Monroe NGC PF70 Ultra Cameo
    $850.00
    2008 Elizabeth Monroe Spouse 1/2 oz proof gold coin w/OGP
    $700.00
    2008 Elizabeth Monroe Spouse 1/2 oz uncirculated gold coin w/OGP
    $685.00
    2008 - First Spouse Gold Proof Elizabeth Monroe (w/Box and Cert)
    $699.00
    2008 - First Spouse Gold Unc Elizabeth Monroe
    $661.11
    2008 - First Spouse Gold Proof Elizabeth Monroe (w/Box and Cert)
    $699.00
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 40,514 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Originally posted by: TomB

    I was one of the folks who ordered a subscription of the series through the US Mint prior to their unilateral withdrawal of that option.



    I then went to the US Mint website the day of the sale of the Washington and Adams coins and, prior to the sale opening, loaded up my shopping cart as a test to see how the process worked. It worked so well that when I hit "Submit Order" it processed my order and checked me out a full nine minutes prior to the opening of the sale! I ordered on Tuesday and received the coins that Thursday and had them sold by Saturday. It was great.



    By the way, I like the Liberty subset and wish that it included five coins instead of four.




    I remember that. I bought the Washington from you at double the issue price thinking that they would do great. Just broke even. 9 years later. image
  • gyromacgyromac Posts: 212 ✭✭
    CA5MAN: sorry you were snubbed just need to find the right people here. there are many who help!

    stman: honestly i think your question is a bit much. wondercoin is obviously helping a board member out and he made that point crystal from the beginning of this post. that is what he does. he is one of the best/fairest in the business in my opinion, and i have dealt with him for over a decade, from top to bottom best in class. fair on price/cut/deal/quality. so he is taking his time to explain the whole series. what a great service to all of us. if you collect it or not just enjoy the comments. the spouses' have always been controversial please try not to add anymore.

    epicjimi1: stop trolling!

    again

    imho

    gyros
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