<< <i>The coin is hardly dead---it may be gasping for some air due to the novice flippers running at full speed for cover. Kind of reminds of that TV commercial, the amatuer art buyer wins the expensive Art piece at auction and as he is being congratulated, he says "can I sell it now" Everyone wants a quick return, forum members also poo poo some really nice issues with potential--this is one of them This coin is tracking similar to the UHR, very similar to pricing right after release---lots of product around, lower prices at issue or close for raws, PCGS 70 FS wholesaling for 1650 or so >>
Yep. Agree 100%.
I wish they taught economics as a requirement in schools. (Well, that and civics, but I digress.)
There are a lot of people who don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of supply and demand, and all the pressures put on the curve. I mean, this is really basic stuff.
Oh well. It's really good popcorn entertainment, though!
The UHR was most certainly not around right after the release. The mint halted shipping for several weeks while they attempted to fix the snafu with the hardcover books which went along with the coin.
One forum member, "Charlie" in fact got the first and only coin released, even though he admittedly ordered a few hours late. It was graded by PCGS a PR70 and shortly after sold for $10,000. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, nobody else received anything for several weeks, followed by a slower than molasses release that followed. This mint screw up only further built the anticipation for this must have coin.
Once the flood gates opened on those, interest dropped substancially. Toward the end, there was one dealer that was on a buying binge and although I can't remember exactly how many he picked up it was several hundred + and everybody thought he was nuts.
With this release, the flood gates opened much faster.
Will it run the same course is anybodys guess but keep in mind the 3/4's vs. 1 oz may end up shorting this coin quite a bit.
<< <i>The coin is hardly dead---it may be gasping for some air due to the novice flippers running at full speed for cover. Kind of reminds of that TV commercial, the amatuer art buyer wins the expensive Art piece at auction and as he is being congratulated, he says "can I sell it now" Everyone wants a quick return, forum members also poo poo some really nice issues with potential--this is one of them This coin is tracking similar to the UHR, very similar to pricing right after release---lots of product around, lower prices at issue or close for raws, PCGS 70 FS wholesaling for 1650 or so >>
I've been watching the modern releases for the past 4 years. The same pattern has repeated over and over. If your desire is to make $ flipping you have to be really quick. I wasn't around for the UHR, but that one appears to be the exception, not the rule. There is the big run up and then a steady decline until the price reaches equilibrium.
The flippers create an artificial demand. The true demand for these coins in nowhere near the mintage.
I think it's rather funny that the flippers, in the end, are killing the game for themselves by over saturating the market on these modern issues. At the same time they are killing the potential value for the true collectors.
"I think it's rather funny that the flippers, in the end, are killing the game for themselves by over saturating the market on these modern issues. At the same time they are killing the potential value for the true collectors."
The flippers have ZERO control of the market or prices. They are only along for the ride which ever way it goes.
The market is controlled first by the mint with the mintage levels, quality of the issue and how timely it is distributed.
From there the market and price is controlled by a group of the big guys that have the most coins and change their prices
based on how fast they can unload their inventory. If their tactics allow them to gain control of a big enough percentage
of the market the prices go thru the roof as was the case with the ANA show and mint store releases. Also their ability
to get special labels from the TPG's give them further advantages that a flipper will never get.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
<< <i>I ordered 5 and sold them to Ian at GC for cost + $125 per coin. Got the big check today. I'm happy as a clam with my $625 profit. Everyone on this board had the same chance and I don't understand why others didn't jump on this opportunity. Thanks Ian!! >>
I tried 2 times to sell to him all I got was "not buying" I even tried MCM and that went no where. I think Ian got burnt enough and that's why he stopped buying....... >>
Not burnt - just bought what I needed - thanks to everyone that sold them to me.
I bought in two stages - +$125 and +$60 - and both times was flooded with offers - that part was surprising - I guess most people ordered the max five coins, when they only wanted one coin.
I'm with Hattrick...I'm more concerned about the "70" issue. You would think you could order a MS-70 or PR-70 coin from either service sight unseen and not have to worry...that is absolutely not the case. Also, I know it's purely mental, but this Kennedy thing has completely turned me off from Mint issues. I have tried and failed a dozen times to talk myself into ordering one and just can't.
<< <i>I sold my UHR at a great profit early on and still have that dumb book unopened which arrived much later after the coin was long gone. >>
Too funny, but my book also came in the mail several weeks later and I'd forgotten all about it. My wife opened it and said what's this book for? I replied Oh that was part of the UHR coin that the mint screwed up, not sure what I'm going to do with it...
My wife said why not sell it? So up for sale it went in a true auction, no reserve starting at 99 cents. I was up making some eats right around the close and decided to watch...Wife yells down, what are you doing? I replied hey that book is ending. She yells back, what's it at? I replied $42.00, and she said Wow that's a tank of gas.
A few minutes later I yelled up, OK, it ended...She replied what did it end at? I replied $164.00...She replied, that's dinner
<< <i>I'm with Hattrick...I'm more concerned about the "70" issue. You would think you could order a MS-70 or PR-70 coin from either service sight unseen and not have to worry...that is absolutely not the case. Also, I know it's purely mental, but this Kennedy thing has completely turned me off from Mint issues. I have tried and failed a dozen times to talk myself into ordering one and just can't. >>
So it cost $100 for this label but they are just flipping a coin with 69 on one side and 70 on the other ? There is no other option but 69 or 70? No 68's no 67's?
<< <i>forget about the 1st 250 people in line at 8.00 Tuesday being able to purchase the gold Kennedys ....dealers will end with the majority of the coins ANA and the Mint promising a free for all at least on Tuesday, until they learn better for the rest of the week .. I will be there,looking for 20 gold Kennedys by the end of the show.... maybe trade hofs for the kennedys >>
Did you make it to the show? >>
yes I did... pick up the church members who waited Monday night.. those 10 got their coins ..sold them to a tv coin pusher ... I ended up with 11 first day label Chicago Show 70s coins .. which still sell over 3,000 ... those 4 other that I bought, looked they would not make to a 70 so they were sold ... no takers for a hof gold trade some people need to realize trading popular moderns Mint coins ...just like trading commodities
seems very prophetic my earlier post from before the ANA show
<< <i>I'm with Hattrick...I'm more concerned about the "70" issue. You would think you could order a MS-70 or PR-70 coin from either service sight unseen and not have to worry...that is absolutely not the case. Also, I know it's purely mental, but this Kennedy thing has completely turned me off from Mint issues. I have tried and failed a dozen times to talk myself into ordering one and just can't. >>
So it cost $100 for this label but they are just flipping a coin with 69 on one side and 70 on the other ? There is no other option but 69 or 70? No 68's no 67's? >>
despute the criticisms of flawed coins, the mint still makes 67 and 68 coins, but they are few and far between.
This issue is no different.
The Buffs(not RP) I've seen recently seem more like majority 70s and few 69s to me. I've been waiting for the day a year's larger count pop reports reflect the much smaller count of what I've seen.
Just noticed a NEW label appearing for the Kennedy Clad Sets. This so called Chicago, first day of issue label must have only been available to Bulk submitters. There appears to be as many as 200 sets or so that have been graded. Based on the mint sales from that day at the show, I projected less than 200 sets sold in total to everybody, with a 2 per person limit.
So, it's obvious that somebody loaded up before the show either from cumulative online orders and or OTC sales and simply brought them in. Now sure I suppose another theory is that they purchased them but the high number of SP 69's coming out of that relatively small number of submissions makes me think not. Thus, it appears this also allowed plenty of time to pre-screen the sets to ensure only the best coins got submitted. This unannounced Bulk deal offer and apparent failure to check mint receipts essentially casts serious doubt on this Chicago first day of issue label.
More or less an observation of what likely happened. This plus their late in the game arrival which suggests a bulk submission at pricing likely far lower than the $75 per coin show fee. I guess it's simply well planned advanced marketing in play.
This label game $ucks big time. The big boys always win so why should I even try to compete with them. I will try to get what i can raw and sell them that way if it looks like I can make a few bucks but will cancel any orders that do not look profitable. I am a flipper and am quite proud of the fact that I have not got burned as of yet.
<< <i>I'm with Hattrick...I'm more concerned about the "70" issue. You would think you could order a MS-70 or PR-70 coin from either service sight unseen and not have to worry...that is absolutely not the case. Also, I know it's purely mental, but this Kennedy thing has completely turned me off from Mint issues. I have tried and failed a dozen times to talk myself into ordering one and just can't. >>
So it cost $100 for this label but they are just flipping a coin with 69 on one side and 70 on the other ? There is no other option but 69 or 70? No 68's no 67's? >>
despute the criticisms of flawed coins, the mint still makes 67 and 68 coins, but they are few and far between.
This issue is no different.
The Buffs(not RP) I've seen recently seem more like majority 70s and few 69s to me. I've been waiting for the day a year's larger count pop reports reflect the much smaller count of what I've seen. >>
Given the number of kennedy's graded there have to be some lower grades out there by now.
Somewhere a half blind collector has to have sent in a coin with a huge scratch in it and it probably should have a details grade on it
The flippers have ZERO control of the market or prices. They are only along for the ride which ever way it goes.
<< <i>
Out of the 60,000 or so orders for the gold Kennedys, what number were bought by actual end collectors? Having tens of thousands of units bought by folks that only want to flip them has a huge impact on the market and prices. If the final mintage was 15,000 opposed to 70,000 that wouldn't impact the potential for appreciation? It's the flippers creating that excess, and largely unwanted glut.
With the mint to demand and current flippers it is comical. If it appears that it will be a hot issue the flippers buy so many that it makes it nearly impossible for the issue to be a long-term hot item. Hence, the same pattern repeats. Initial high price with a rapid decline followed by stagnation.
<< <i>You don't want flippers then have the mint limit sales to 1 or 2 per person. >>
that would reduce flippers, but not eliminate them.
before the paid line standers was the abuse of the friends and family network posts from days past.
there was nothing even close to a solution for that. And flipping doesn't bother me so much if done in smasll amounts. I'm just grumpy at the amateurs out there that added to the misery. But c'est la vie to them.
The flippers have ZERO control of the market or prices. They are only along for the ride which ever way it goes.
<< <i>
Out of the 60,000 or so orders for the gold Kennedys, what number were bought by actual end collectors? Having tens of thousands of units bought by folks that only want to flip them has a huge impact on the market and prices. If the final mintage was 15,000 opposed to 70,000 that wouldn't impact the potential for appreciation? It's the flippers creating that excess, and largely unwanted glut.
With the mint to demand and current flippers it is comical. If it appears that it will be a hot issue the flippers buy so many that it makes it nearly impossible for the issue to be a long-term hot item. Hence, the same pattern repeats. Initial high price with a rapid decline followed by stagnation. >>
It is the coin dealers and tv hucksters with their dozens upon dozens and in some cases hundreds upon hundreds of paid buyers that buy up most of the product
for resale. While the flippers add to the demand it is just a small percentage and they surely have no control and little effect on the overall market. End user collectors
make up a larger percentage of the buying than the flippers.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
<< <i>You don't want flippers then have the mint limit sales to 1 or 2 per person. >>
Won't stop anything. If people were honest, I would say to start a thread/poll and ask how many on here have multiple mint accounts (credit cards/addresses/etc that are all really them but different enough for the mint to count as a new HH). I recall people here saying they were doing that back in some earlier flips.
Dealers play same game...using employees to do it. Limits of 1-2 don't really do much.....also look at ANA show.....
It would make it much more of a problem for most people to get hundreds of coins. The mint would never do it anyway because they are in the coin selling business.
The TV hucksters and modern dealers are absolutely flippers. They are not the end user. They are the ones attempting to create an artificial demand. By doing so it kills the long term prospects of these modern offerings for the actual collectors by pumping up the supply.
I'll not saying its good or bad, it just is...
Relative to spot, if you believe that the gold Kennedy will be worth more in 10 years than today you are not believing in history.
The buying to sell in the immediate near-term for a quick profit is flipping. The intent is not collecting. The intent is not to enjoy the coin. The intent is profit totally detached from the coin.
It's a new day out here, dark clouds formed on the economy years ago. Its way past time for buyers , sellers, and collectors of money to wake up and smell the coffee. There are US Citizens without enough money to buy the essentials for their daily lives. They sure as blazes don't have enough money to buy MONEY. ...... duh .
It's almost like the few of us supernerds that collect money (at a premium over its face value) are unable to see ourselves and our place in the larger world. Is it possible that collectors, flippers, Dealers, US Mint, paid line standers, pure speculators and TPGs are all trying to sell to a few Collectors? Well the first dweebs in my list were Collectors.
Are we all still thinking Joe Schmoe that's not in the know is still wanting to buy from us at huge premiums? Maybe that day is long gone. Maybe those that want Mint product are getting it from the source. Maybe some need to go to flipping Real Estate or something else?
Could it be Game over in the Coin World flippers paradise?
It seems like whatever market is left belongs to the TV Hucksters and their dreamland market.
<< <i>This label game $ucks big time. The big boys always win so why should I even try to compete with them. I will try to get what i can raw and sell them that way if it looks like I can make a few bucks but will cancel any orders that do not look profitable. I am a flipper and am quite proud of the fact that I have not got burned as of yet. >>
<< <i>It's a new day out here, dark clouds formed on the economy years ago. Its way past time for buyers , sellers, and collectors of money to wake up and smell the coffee. There are US Citizens without enough money to buy the essentials for their daily lives. They sure as blazes don't have enough money to buy MONEY. ...... duh .
It's almost like the few of us supernerds that collect money (at a premium over its face value) are unable to see ourselves and our place in the larger world. Is it possible that collectors, flippers, Dealers, US Mint, paid line standers, pure speculators and TPGs are all trying to sell to a few Collectors? Well the first dweebs in my list were Collectors.
Are we all still thinking Joe Schmoe that's not in the know is still wanting to buy from us at huge premiums? Maybe that day is long gone. Maybe those that want Mint product are getting it from the source. Maybe some need to go to flipping Real Estate or something else?
Could it be Game over in the Coin World flippers paradise?
It seems like whatever market is left belongs to the TV Hucksters and their dreamland market. >>
no
on ebay vthere are still ANA 70 labels selling for pure label frenzy premiums. If it were the coins and not the label, plain 70FS would be higher. And it is these flippers that were at and traveled to get at the ANA who are still flipping.
The problem is demand for the gold issue was fairly well over-estimated by some larger flippers and the amateur flippers.
<< <i>This label game $ucks big time. The big boys always win so why should I even try to compete with them. I will try to get what i can raw and sell them that way if it looks like I can make a few bucks but will cancel any orders that do not look profitable. I am a flipper and am quite proud of the fact that I have not got burned as of yet. >>
well said. I shall join you . Lets to that. >>
I stopped caring about the special show label when the Mint indicated "special" show releases would continue past the RP Buff.
What's special about a show release that is nothing more than a coincidental sales date at a show that will happen each year (or more)?
I don't trust their bidding. Shill possible but how do we know there are any bidders and not just them saying so? Then they do "match the bid" with lots "out the door". Way to sketchy for me...but I can't look away, ya know?
I tend to agree with Full Strike that the whole game is playing for a smaller and smaller piece of the pie. It may never die entirely, but the heyday is past--and thank goodness!
failure of gold prices to show signs of recovery have had a negative impact on recent gold commemoratives and gold special issues. For many, buying into a gold coin has to offer some promise of appreciation in the metal itself. Had the HOF and the JFK golds been issued when gold was moving up to new highs participation/demand would have been much greater.
The only way to make an economic system truly stable is to permit the free market to take over.
Here is why the coin is a bust, there is already a Kennedy coin with the same mintage that sells for a couple hundred dollars. If you add the metal content you still don't get to mint issue price for the gold. This is all based on past demand history for the coin, that is true. However if you throw out the ANA coins and all of that then what is left, this is why the sales should have never gone this high. The mint lucked out, they sold far more than demand would otherwise expect.
I think it may not be bad for gold Kennedy in the longer term - it likely will suppress original mintage. Also I expect we will see a few weeks of "negative" sales as many people returning all/some of their purchases. I've seen many me members reporting returning 2-3 out 5 purchased, it takes 2-3 weeks for USM to process returns. As for myself I returned 3 out of 5 and sent 2 to PCGS. The waiting for the grades started
<< <i>I think it may not be bad for gold Kennedy in the longer term - it likely will suppress original mintage. Also I expect we will see a few weeks of "negative" sales as many people returning all/some of their purchases. I've seen many me members reporting returning 2-3 out 5 purchased, it takes 2-3 weeks for USM to process returns. As for myself I returned 3 out of 5 and sent 2 to PCGS. The waiting for the grades started >>
Do you or does anyone think a great many of us were "speculating" prematurely ? It's difficult to understand the "cancellation" on items that will be "MINTED TO DEMAND", but, maybe I'm still "in the dark" imagining collectors would "order one" for the collection, or two for the show (one to go). Although it appears there were lines forming everywhere for them, yet … now we have all these "cancellations". It's confusing.
I think some of it, a good portion, is also like the facebook ipo.
people were lining up to get shares, but a significant portion were in line just to flip it.
demand was skewed by flipping.
then there are the 2010 atb bullion pucks. people were gauging demand off the demand lists and as people encountered more demand, their demand grew. This issue didn't have any demand lists but the anticipation after the clad release was felt on the message boards. Unfortunately, it was misguided since the amount was skewed by flippers.
If a flipper could not flip this one, the flipper should blame other flippers and look in the mirror.
<< <i>I think some of it, a good portion, is also like the facebook ipo.
people were lining up to get shares, but a significant portion were in line just to flip it.
demand was skewed by flipping.
then there are the 2010 atb bullion pucks. people were gauging demand off the demand lists and as people encountered more demand, their demand grew. This issue didn't have any demand lists but the anticipation after the clad release was felt on the message boards. Unfortunately, it was misguided since the amount was skewed by flippers.
If a flipper could not flip this one, the flipper should blame other flippers and look in the mirror. >>
Who cares about the number of flippers except another flipper that is worried about how much they could make on a coin.
Any collector who wanted a coin at mint issue price to keep can have one, with most already shipped and all new orders now
still available for shipping by 9/3. Less than a month from issue at cost. No reason to complain unless you are flipper who wanted to make money on the coin.
Correction: still a reason to complain as the quality of many coins is not good and many are being returned, it may be hard to get a good one.
" If you push something hard enough, it will fall over. " The 1st Law of Opposition from The Firesign Theater
the euphoric flip that dies a hasty death leaves a taint on the coin, collecting, and moderns in general.
also the flippers crowded in and squeezed people who were collectors with delays plus the screwed the little guy with huge markups (I'm talking ANA labels and the in person fiasco that went off at 4 places). I'd rather have seen the small guys have much more chance to make their own labels.
I didn't flip this one and won't.
I have flipped in the past, but not nearly the magnitude what has gone on. After the clad, I swore off the flip on the gold and only wanted the 2 for me. I Also swore off the Kennedy labels for $25.
(my friends and family network was me and me all but one of the time when I added someone that once).
Aside from selling what I make but can't use, I am off of flipping.
Any Dealer known to be busing in large groups ought to be boycotted. Maybe that will help to restore order. It's one thing to even have show releases but when Dealers resort to any means to monopolize the show releases then they should feel a little collector justice. Profits earned by Coin Freaks stay in the hobby. Profits earned by street freaks goes anywhere but the hobby.
Comments
<< <i>The coin is hardly dead---it may be gasping for some air due to the novice
flippers running at full speed for cover.
Kind of reminds of that TV commercial, the amatuer art buyer wins the expensive
Art piece at auction and as he is being congratulated, he says "can I sell it now"
Everyone wants a quick return, forum members also poo poo some really nice
issues with potential--this is one of them
This coin is tracking similar to the UHR, very similar to pricing right after release---lots
of product around, lower prices at issue or close for raws, PCGS 70 FS wholesaling
for 1650 or so >>
Yep. Agree 100%.
I wish they taught economics as a requirement in schools. (Well, that and civics, but I digress.)
There are a lot of people who don't seem to be able to grasp the concept of supply and demand, and all the pressures put on the curve. I mean, this is really basic stuff.
Oh well. It's really good popcorn entertainment, though!
it is them and not the flippers that are leading the price decline. Many collectors like me are fed up with the poor
quality of many of the coins within any issue that the mint puts out. Also the deplorable tactics of several
dealers created a stink for these coins that will never go away. I used to be excited and anticipated getting
a new silver proof from the mint or a beautiful perfect slabbed 70. Over the last couple of years that turned
to worrying if the ogp or 70 coin would once again have scratches, dings or hair on it. It is clear many coins are
given a 70 that should not. I have cut my purchases a lot due to this issue and am beginning to lose my interest
in collecting as my main interest was always shiney new silver proofs.
One forum member, "Charlie" in fact got the first and only coin released, even though he admittedly ordered a few hours late. It was graded by PCGS a PR70 and shortly after sold for $10,000. Meanwhile, back at the ranch, nobody else received anything for several weeks, followed by a slower than molasses release that followed. This mint screw up only further built the anticipation for this must have coin.
Once the flood gates opened on those, interest dropped substancially. Toward the end, there was one dealer that was on a buying binge and although I can't remember exactly how many he picked up it was several hundred + and everybody thought he was nuts.
With this release, the flood gates opened much faster.
Will it run the same course is anybodys guess but keep in mind the 3/4's vs. 1 oz may end up shorting this coin quite a bit.
<< <i>The coin is hardly dead---it may be gasping for some air due to the novice
flippers running at full speed for cover.
Kind of reminds of that TV commercial, the amatuer art buyer wins the expensive
Art piece at auction and as he is being congratulated, he says "can I sell it now"
Everyone wants a quick return, forum members also poo poo some really nice
issues with potential--this is one of them
This coin is tracking similar to the UHR, very similar to pricing right after release---lots
of product around, lower prices at issue or close for raws, PCGS 70 FS wholesaling
for 1650 or so >>
I've been watching the modern releases for the past 4 years. The same pattern has repeated over and over. If your desire is to make $ flipping you have to be really quick. I wasn't around for the UHR, but that one appears to be the exception, not the rule. There is the big run up and then a steady decline until the price reaches equilibrium.
The flippers create an artificial demand. The true demand for these coins in nowhere near the mintage.
I think it's rather funny that the flippers, in the end, are killing the game for themselves by over saturating the market on these modern issues. At the same time they are killing the potential value for the true collectors.
The flippers have ZERO control of the market or prices. They are only along for the ride which ever way it goes.
The market is controlled first by the mint with the mintage levels, quality of the issue and how timely it is distributed.
From there the market and price is controlled by a group of the big guys that have the most coins and change their prices
based on how fast they can unload their inventory. If their tactics allow them to gain control of a big enough percentage
of the market the prices go thru the roof as was the case with the ANA show and mint store releases. Also their ability
to get special labels from the TPG's give them further advantages that a flipper will never get.
<< <i>
<< <i>I ordered 5 and sold them to Ian at GC for cost + $125 per coin. Got the big check today. I'm happy as a clam with my $625 profit. Everyone on this board had the same chance and I don't understand why others didn't jump on this opportunity. Thanks Ian!! >>
I tried 2 times to sell to him all I got was "not buying" I even tried MCM and that went no where. I think Ian got burnt enough and that's why he stopped buying....... >>
Not burnt - just bought what I needed - thanks to everyone that sold them to me.
I bought in two stages - +$125 and +$60 - and both times was flooded with offers - that part was surprising - I guess most people ordered the max five coins, when they only wanted one coin.
- Ian
Owner/Founder GreatCollections
GreatCollections Coin Auctions - Certified Coin Auctions Every Week - Rare Coins & Coin Values
<< <i>I sold my UHR at a great profit early on and still have that dumb book unopened which arrived much later after the coin was long gone. >>
Too funny, but my book also came in the mail several weeks later and I'd forgotten all about it. My wife opened it and said what's this book for? I replied Oh that was part of the UHR coin that the mint screwed up, not sure what I'm going to do with it...
My wife said why not sell it? So up for sale it went in a true auction, no reserve starting at 99 cents. I was up making some eats right around the close and decided to watch...Wife yells down, what are you doing? I replied hey that book is ending. She yells back, what's it at? I replied $42.00, and she said Wow that's a tank of gas.
A few minutes later I yelled up, OK, it ended...She replied what did it end at? I replied $164.00...She replied, that's dinner
The sale made CoinWorld.
<< <i>I'm with Hattrick...I'm more concerned about the "70" issue. You would think you could order a MS-70 or PR-70 coin from either service sight unseen and not have to worry...that is absolutely not the case. Also, I know it's purely mental, but this Kennedy thing has completely turned me off from Mint issues. I have tried and failed a dozen times to talk myself into ordering one and just can't. >>
So it cost $100 for this label but they are just flipping a coin with 69 on one side and 70 on the other ? There is no other option but 69 or 70? No 68's no 67's?
<< <i>
<< <i>well the sky has fallen on the gold kennedys.. soon my coin club will buy..
Go to page 18 and read your comments......
odd price dynamics .. but only feel great another buying opportunity is coming
<< <i>
<< <i>forget about the 1st 250 people in line at 8.00 Tuesday being able to purchase the gold Kennedys ....dealers will end with the majority of the coins
ANA and the Mint promising a free for all at least on Tuesday, until they learn better for the rest of the week ..
I will be there,looking for 20 gold Kennedys by the end of the show.... maybe trade hofs for the kennedys
Did you make it to the show? >>
yes I did... pick up the church members who waited Monday night.. those 10 got their coins ..sold them to a tv coin pusher ... I ended up with 11 first day label Chicago Show 70s coins .. which still sell over 3,000 ... those 4 other that I bought, looked they would not make to a 70 so they were sold ... no takers for a hof gold trade
some people need to realize trading popular moderns Mint coins ...just like trading commodities
seems very prophetic my earlier post from before the ANA show
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm with Hattrick...I'm more concerned about the "70" issue. You would think you could order a MS-70 or PR-70 coin from either service sight unseen and not have to worry...that is absolutely not the case. Also, I know it's purely mental, but this Kennedy thing has completely turned me off from Mint issues. I have tried and failed a dozen times to talk myself into ordering one and just can't. >>
So it cost $100 for this label but they are just flipping a coin with 69 on one side and 70 on the other ? There is no other option but 69 or 70? No 68's no 67's? >>
despute the criticisms of flawed coins, the mint still makes 67 and 68 coins, but they are few and far between.
This issue is no different.
The Buffs(not RP) I've seen recently seem more like majority 70s and few 69s to me. I've been waiting for the day a year's larger count pop reports reflect the much smaller count of what I've seen.
So, it's obvious that somebody loaded up before the show either from cumulative online orders and or OTC sales and simply brought them in. Now sure I suppose another theory is that they purchased them but the high number of SP 69's coming out of that relatively small number of submissions makes me think not. Thus, it appears this also allowed plenty of time to pre-screen the sets to ensure only the best coins got submitted. This unannounced Bulk deal offer and apparent failure to check mint receipts essentially casts serious doubt on this Chicago first day of issue label.
More or less an observation of what likely happened. This plus their late in the game arrival which suggests a bulk submission at pricing likely far lower than the $75 per coin show fee. I guess it's simply well planned advanced marketing in play.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm with Hattrick...I'm more concerned about the "70" issue. You would think you could order a MS-70 or PR-70 coin from either service sight unseen and not have to worry...that is absolutely not the case. Also, I know it's purely mental, but this Kennedy thing has completely turned me off from Mint issues. I have tried and failed a dozen times to talk myself into ordering one and just can't. >>
So it cost $100 for this label but they are just flipping a coin with 69 on one side and 70 on the other ? There is no other option but 69 or 70? No 68's no 67's? >>
despute the criticisms of flawed coins, the mint still makes 67 and 68 coins, but they are few and far between.
This issue is no different.
The Buffs(not RP) I've seen recently seem more like majority 70s and few 69s to me. I've been waiting for the day a year's larger count pop reports reflect the much smaller count of what I've seen. >>
Given the number of kennedy's graded there have to be some lower grades out there by now.
Somewhere a half blind collector has to have sent in a coin with a huge scratch in it and it probably should have a details grade on it
<< <i>
The flippers have ZERO control of the market or prices. They are only along for the ride which ever way it goes.
<< <i>
Out of the 60,000 or so orders for the gold Kennedys, what number were bought by actual end collectors? Having tens of thousands of units bought by folks that only want to flip them has a huge impact on the market and prices. If the final mintage was 15,000 opposed to 70,000 that wouldn't impact the potential for appreciation? It's the flippers creating that excess, and largely unwanted glut.
With the mint to demand and current flippers it is comical. If it appears that it will be a hot issue the flippers buy so many that it makes it nearly impossible for the issue to be a long-term hot item. Hence, the same pattern repeats. Initial high price with a rapid decline followed by stagnation.
back down to $1240
<< <i>You don't want flippers then have the mint limit sales to 1 or 2 per person. >>
that would reduce flippers, but not eliminate them.
before the paid line standers was the abuse of the friends and family network posts from days past.
there was nothing even close to a solution for that. And flipping doesn't bother me so much if done in smasll amounts. I'm just grumpy at the amateurs out there that added to the misery. But c'est la vie to them.
<< <i>
<< <i>
The flippers have ZERO control of the market or prices. They are only along for the ride which ever way it goes.
<< <i>
Out of the 60,000 or so orders for the gold Kennedys, what number were bought by actual end collectors? Having tens of thousands of units bought by folks that only want to flip them has a huge impact on the market and prices. If the final mintage was 15,000 opposed to 70,000 that wouldn't impact the potential for appreciation? It's the flippers creating that excess, and largely unwanted glut.
With the mint to demand and current flippers it is comical. If it appears that it will be a hot issue the flippers buy so many that it makes it nearly impossible for the issue to be a long-term hot item. Hence, the same pattern repeats. Initial high price with a rapid decline followed by stagnation. >>
It is the coin dealers and tv hucksters with their dozens upon dozens and in some cases hundreds upon hundreds of paid buyers that buy up most of the product
for resale. While the flippers add to the demand it is just a small percentage and they surely have no control and little effect on the overall market. End user collectors
make up a larger percentage of the buying than the flippers.
<< <i>You don't want flippers then have the mint limit sales to 1 or 2 per person. >>
Won't stop anything.
If people were honest, I would say to start a thread/poll and ask how many on here have multiple mint accounts (credit cards/addresses/etc that are all really them but different enough for the mint to count as a new HH). I recall people here saying they were doing that back in some earlier flips.
Dealers play same game...using employees to do it. Limits of 1-2 don't really do much.....also look at ANA show.....
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
I'll not saying its good or bad, it just is...
Relative to spot, if you believe that the gold Kennedy will be worth more in 10 years than today you are not believing in history.
Under that definition without them there would be no market.
People can not collect much unless there is a market to buy and sell their coins.
anyway flipping is different than collecting.
The buying to sell in the immediate near-term for a quick profit is flipping. The intent is not collecting. The intent is not to enjoy the coin. The intent is profit totally detached from the coin.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>well the sky has fallen on the gold kennedys.. soon my coin club will buy..
Go to page 18 and read your comments......
I am still waiting on this:
<< <i> and gold will rise sharply into late August .. >>
I guess there are still a few days left..... >>
if don't have the money to play and wait .. you can't be talkin bull
of money to wake up and smell the coffee. There are US Citizens without enough money to buy the essentials for their daily
lives. They sure as blazes don't have enough money to buy MONEY. ...... duh .
It's almost like the few of us supernerds that collect money (at a premium over its face value) are unable to see ourselves
and our place in the larger world. Is it possible that collectors, flippers, Dealers, US Mint, paid line standers, pure speculators
and TPGs are all trying to sell to a few Collectors? Well the first dweebs in my list were Collectors.
Are we all still thinking Joe Schmoe that's not in the know is still wanting to buy from us at huge premiums? Maybe that day is
long gone. Maybe those that want Mint product are getting it from the source. Maybe some need to go to flipping Real Estate
or something else?
Could it be Game over in the Coin World flippers paradise?
It seems like whatever market is left belongs to the TV Hucksters and their dreamland market.
<< <i>This label game $ucks big time. The big boys always win so why should I even try to compete with them. I will try to get what i can raw and sell them that way if it looks like I can make a few bucks but will cancel any orders that do not look profitable. I am a flipper and am quite proud of the fact that I have not got burned as of yet. >>
<< <i>It's a new day out here, dark clouds formed on the economy years ago. Its way past time for buyers , sellers, and collectors
of money to wake up and smell the coffee. There are US Citizens without enough money to buy the essentials for their daily
lives. They sure as blazes don't have enough money to buy MONEY. ...... duh .
It's almost like the few of us supernerds that collect money (at a premium over its face value) are unable to see ourselves
and our place in the larger world. Is it possible that collectors, flippers, Dealers, US Mint, paid line standers, pure speculators
and TPGs are all trying to sell to a few Collectors? Well the first dweebs in my list were Collectors.
Are we all still thinking Joe Schmoe that's not in the know is still wanting to buy from us at huge premiums? Maybe that day is
long gone. Maybe those that want Mint product are getting it from the source. Maybe some need to go to flipping Real Estate
or something else?
Could it be Game over in the Coin World flippers paradise?
It seems like whatever market is left belongs to the TV Hucksters and their dreamland market. >>
no
on ebay vthere are still ANA 70 labels selling for pure label frenzy premiums. If it were the coins and not the label, plain 70FS would be higher. And it is these flippers that were at and traveled to get at the ANA who are still flipping.
The problem is demand for the gold issue was fairly well over-estimated by some larger flippers and the amateur flippers.
<< <i>
<< <i>This label game $ucks big time. The big boys always win so why should I even try to compete with them. I will try to get what i can raw and sell them that way if it looks like I can make a few bucks but will cancel any orders that do not look profitable. I am a flipper and am quite proud of the fact that I have not got burned as of yet. >>
I stopped caring about the special show label when the Mint indicated "special" show releases would continue past the RP Buff.
What's special about a show release that is nothing more than a coincidental sales date at a show that will happen each year (or more)?
Some body is bidding right now on a cable coin show $1,000 for a pair of SP69 Chicago ANA ANCS 2014 High Relief coins (the 2 coin set plainly put)
Crazy !
<< <i>Not the gold, but...
Some body is bidding right now on a cable coin show $1,000 for a pair of SP69 Chicago ANA ANCS 2014 High Relief coins (the 2 coin set plainly put)
Crazy !
Judas Goat / Shill bidder ?
True the resulting demand turned out to be way less that expected and the over supply way greater, however
it is not the "CAUSE" of the problem, it is the "RESULT" of the problem. And the two main problems thet caused the lack of demand are:
1. The deplorable tactics of a handful of dealers at the ANA show and the mint gift shops.
2. The number of poor quality coins shipped by the mint.
This led many collectors like myself to decide I did not even want to take a chance of getting a bad coin at such a high investment and
the stink of the show and mint locations would probably kill a lot of future demand for the coin.
Many flippers deceided also not to take a chance on bad coins that obviously fewer people wanted to buy.
Instead of the usual slow death of modern issues a mass suicide of the gold Kennedy's occured.
The only way to make an economic system truly stable is to permit the free market to take over.
<< <i>I think it may not be bad for gold Kennedy in the longer term - it likely will suppress original mintage. Also I expect we will see a few weeks of "negative" sales as many people returning all/some of their purchases. I've seen many me members reporting returning 2-3 out 5 purchased, it takes 2-3 weeks for USM to process returns. As for myself I returned 3 out of 5 and sent 2 to PCGS. The waiting for the grades started
Do you or does anyone think a great many of us were "speculating" prematurely ? It's difficult to understand the "cancellation" on items that will be "MINTED TO DEMAND", but, maybe I'm still "in the dark" imagining collectors would "order one" for the collection, or two for the show (one to go). Although it appears there were lines forming everywhere for them, yet … now we have all these "cancellations". It's confusing.
people were lining up to get shares, but a significant portion were in line just to flip it.
demand was skewed by flipping.
then there are the 2010 atb bullion pucks. people were gauging demand off the demand lists and as people encountered more demand, their demand grew. This issue didn't have any demand lists but the anticipation after the clad release was felt on the message boards. Unfortunately, it was misguided since the amount was skewed by flippers.
If a flipper could not flip this one, the flipper should blame other flippers and look in the mirror.
<< <i>I think some of it, a good portion, is also like the facebook ipo.
people were lining up to get shares, but a significant portion were in line just to flip it.
demand was skewed by flipping.
then there are the 2010 atb bullion pucks. people were gauging demand off the demand lists and as people encountered more demand, their demand grew. This issue didn't have any demand lists but the anticipation after the clad release was felt on the message boards. Unfortunately, it was misguided since the amount was skewed by flippers.
If a flipper could not flip this one, the flipper should blame other flippers and look in the mirror. >>
Who cares about the number of flippers except another flipper that is worried about how much they could make on a coin.
Any collector who wanted a coin at mint issue price to keep can have one, with most already shipped and all new orders now
still available for shipping by 9/3. Less than a month from issue at cost. No reason to complain unless you are flipper who wanted to make money on the coin.
Correction: still a reason to complain as the quality of many coins is not good and many are being returned, it may be hard to get a good one.
also the flippers crowded in and squeezed people who were collectors with delays plus the screwed the little guy with huge markups (I'm talking ANA labels and the in person fiasco that went off at 4 places). I'd rather have seen the small guys have much more chance to make their own labels.
I didn't flip this one and won't.
I have flipped in the past, but not nearly the magnitude what has gone on. After the clad, I swore off the flip on the gold and only wanted the 2 for me. I Also swore off the Kennedy labels for $25.
(my friends and family network was me and me all but one of the time when I added someone that once).
Aside from selling what I make but can't use, I am off of flipping.
It's one thing to even have show releases but when Dealers resort to any means to monopolize the show
releases then they should feel a little collector justice. Profits earned by Coin Freaks stay in the hobby.
Profits earned by street freaks goes anywhere but the hobby.