I checked the dimes - the Roosevelt Dimes FB Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1946-Present) has the same "problem", the top sets are showing SP's for 2005 through 2010.
I checked the nickels - the Jefferson Nickels Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1938-present) has the same "problem".
I checked the cents - the Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1909-Present) has the same "problem"
It will likely take a great many collectors complaining in all of those series to get that change accomplished. Indeed, most collectors might like the ability to get top points with a $50 coin instead of having to pay $2,500. Just saying.
Perhaps your best bet is to ask BJ to create additional sets in the manner you desire?
Wondercoin.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
My claim is that the PCGS form of "+" (plus) designation is a scam brought upon collectors by PCGS and the dealers they support, and provides no value to the collecting community.
The concept of "+" is not a new thing. It has been going on forever in multiple forms "+", PQ(premium quality), star, etc.....
The designation in itself has no objective authority, it merely means that in "someone's eyes" it has really nice eye appeal. That could mean blazingly, shiny white to some. That could mean beautifully toned to others. And it could mean "almost the next grade" to others. I don't have any problem with any of these as long as you show me the coin or some decent pictures so I can make up my own mind.
What I do have a problem with is someone like PCGS attempting to make it a de facto standard of some illusive kind. First off (and a lot of people are falling for this) is that a coin graded as a "+" coin has some kind of "super" value and rarity? Of course the PCGS price guides are full of this fluff. Recently in the quarters I've seen an MS66+ PCGS recommended price 6 times the value of an MS66. And not surprisingly....multiple auctions listed that follow that logic. That's insane.
PCGS has further "rewarded" owners and buyers of the "+" coins in providing them with "extra" point values in the PCGS registry sets. What do you think that has done to the registry sets ?????? How do you compare your "+" sets to the "All-Time" list of sets where many of these sets are already retired ????? Since the advent of this "+" thing I've seen numerous highly regarded retired sets virtually disappear for the All-Time lists. The retired sets are no doomed to the bottom of the pile - even though I suspect that there are very much better.
What is the meaning of the now doomed "Classic Sets" ???? They have no meaning now as they rules have all been rewritten in the name of "+". The whole purpuse of the "Classic Sets" were to be able to compare our current day sets to those of the old days.
And what has quietly been done in the newest product - CoinFacts ???? Does it logically and correctly present populations any longer ???? No.... Pick any quarter - and go to it in CoinFacts - when it first comes up (and everytime you refresh), it isn't showing the "+" grades. Now a normal person would assume that if you are showing the MS66+ coins, the MS66+ population would be combined into the MS66 population - Right???? No - press the "Show Plus Grades" button and you will find that PCGS doesn't consider an MS66+ coin a member of the MS66 universe - they aren't MS66's and they aren't MS67's - then what are the MS66+ coins. .... another grade. Of course this makes MS66 appear rarer because the MS66 population isn't accounting for the MS66+ populations.
I highly suggest that PCGS change their grading scale from 1-70 to 1-140. That is really what they are doing isn't it ????
I'm sure a major monetary killing is being made in regrades/attributions. A "+" is a highly valuable spot of ink on a coin label. For the 1951-P (5846) quarter - an MS-67, Pop 51, Guide Price $375. Now if you have one of these you might want to start repeatedly sending it into PCGS for a regrade......an MS-67+ (now the top pop?), Pop 3, Guide Price $5000. What someone thinks it is pretty and it instantly becomes the Top Pop and has a value 13 times that of is basic MS67 brothern....$375 to $5000 - really ????
Very few can even dependably handly 70 degrees of grading - what makes anyone thinks that can now split hairs consistently and honorably handle about 140 grades ????
<< <i>How About A Little Board Controversy.... My claim is that the PCGS form of "+" (plus) designation is a scam brought upon collectors by PCGS and the dealers they support, and provides no value to the collecting community. The concept of "+" is not a new thing. It has been going on forever in multiple forms "+", PQ(premium quality), star, etc..... The designation in itself has no objective authority, it merely means that in "someone's eyes" it has really nice eye appeal. That could mean blazingly, shiny white to some. That could mean beautifully toned to others. And it could mean "almost the next grade" to others. I don't have any problem with any of these as long as you show me the coin or some decent pictures so I can make up my own mind. What I do have a problem with is someone like PCGS attempting to make it a de facto standard of some illusive kind. First off (and a lot of people are falling for this) is that a coin graded as a "+" coin has some kind of "super" value and rarity? Of course the PCGS price guides are full of this fluff. Recently in the quarters I've seen an MS66+ PCGS recommended price 6 times the value of an MS66. And not surprisingly....multiple auctions listed that follow that logic. That's insane. PCGS has further "rewarded" owners and buyers of the "+" coins in providing them with "extra" point values in the PCGS registry sets. What do you think that has done to the registry sets ?????? How do you compare your "+" sets to the "All-Time" list of sets where many of these sets are already retired ????? Since the advent of this "+" thing I've seen numerous highly regarded retired sets virtually disappear for the All-Time lists. The retired sets are no doomed to the bottom of the pile - even though I suspect that there are very much better. What is the meaning of the now doomed "Classic Sets" ???? They have no meaning now as they rules have all been rewritten in the name of "+". The whole purpuse of the "Classic Sets" were to be able to compare our current day sets to those of the old days. And what has quietly been done in the newest product - CoinFacts ???? Does it logically and correctly present populations any longer ???? No.... Pick any quarter - and go to it in CoinFacts - when it first comes up (and everytime you refresh), it isn't showing the "+" grades. Now a normal person would assume that if you are showing the MS66+ coins, the MS66+ population would be combined into the MS66 population - Right???? No - press the "Show Plus Grades" button and you will find that PCGS doesn't consider an MS66+ coin a member of the MS66 universe - they aren't MS66's and they aren't MS67's - then what are the MS66+ coins. .... another grade. Of course this makes MS66 appear rarer because the MS66 population isn't accounting for the MS66+ populations. I highly suggest that PCGS change their grading scale from 1-70 to 1-140. That is really what they are doing isn't it ???? I'm sure a major monetary killing is being made in regrades/attributions. A "+" is a highly valuable spot of ink on a coin label. For the 1951-P (5846) quarter - an MS-67, Pop 51, Guide Price $375. Now if you have one of these you might want to start repeatedly sending it into PCGS for a regrade......an MS-67+ (now the top pop?), Pop 3, Guide Price $5000. What someone thinks it is pretty and it instantly becomes the Top Pop and has a value 13 times that of is basic MS67 brothern....$375 to $5000 - really ???? Very few can even dependably handly 70 degrees of grading - what makes anyone thinks that can now split hairs consistently and honorably handle about 140 grades ???? I think I'll start an "Ugly Pluses" thread. >>
Roger,
I am not really into controversy, but I will say that I have been a member for a very long time. My post count is not very high and I normally do not post unless I have something I feel is important to add to the conversation. There are posts I really enjoy over others and this just happens to be one of them. Now, that being said - I would hate to see this post go poof or worse to see another member get banned....... So here is my opinion that's just from a part time collector. Many years ago coins grades were described as BU, select BU and even GEM BU. There were times they had split grades 63/65 for the obverse / reverse. There has been net grading, market grading and even some that are called color bumps. Plain and simple the + was explained as being a way to acknowledge a coin as approaching the next grade. Now, again I say this is my opnion and I hope I do not cross the line.... The * used by NGC is for eye appealing coins, isn't eye appeal a part of the grade? I think the + is a better attribute of the coins grade (based on that time and day it was reviewed) of the over all graders opinion (that is why we get our coins graded right? for an UN-biased opinion). Do we really need someone to only tell us the eye appeal is really nice for a coin? Can't we see that? I need to know if a coin is possibly approaching the next higher grade. Maybe I cannot afford a 68, but a 67+ could fill the bill just fine. Now as far as the registry and points, I have coins here and across the street. Again, my opinion only - I think the weights are more realistic here and not so inflated based only on eye appeal. Now for Coinfacts, I had it for 1 year and enjoyed it. Could it be better, sure it can. You know what, it is a work in progress and as far as I could tell it continued to improve the time I subscribed to it. Can you honestly say that you never noticed any improvements? Now before anyone asks about the Koolaid I'm drinking - I'll just say that If I did not like the service here I always know I can leave at anytime. I could go on, but that's not who I am - I just ask you to not use a great thread as a soap box and let's keep this professional.
Here is a little beauty just a plain old MS65 with original end roll toning
What ??? No comments about this part. Just look at the All-Time Finest list for Washington Quarters Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1932-1964). Who has the 2nd best All-Time Finest and who has the 3rd best All-Time Finest ?
PCGS has further "rewarded" owners and buyers of the "+" coins in providing them with "extra" point values in the PCGS registry sets. What do you think that has done to the registry sets ?????? How do you compare your "+" sets to the "All-Time" list of sets where many of these sets are already retired ????? Since the advent of this "+" thing I've seen numerous highly regarded retired sets virtually disappear from the All-Time lists. The retired sets are now doomed to the bottom of the pile - even though I suspect that they are very much better than shown.
What is the meaning of the now doomed "Classic Sets" ???? They have no meaning now as the rules have all been rewritten in the name of "+". The whole purpose of the "Classic Sets" were to be able to compare our current day sets to those of the old days.
Roger, I agree with everything that you said. The + grade ruined it for most of the collectors in the registry. Some of the top collectors sold there sets or are selling there sets because of this. They simply do not want to play what they call the "Game" anymore.
MS-67 quarters plummeted since the + grades started. I see nice MS-67 quarters sell at Heritage for 5 times price guide, yet the price guide continues to go down. Is the price guide for 67 quarters now based only on ugly MS-67 quarters that sell on Ebay?
My retired set Retired set was once #2 and is now #5. But since I sold the set 15 on My MS-67 quarters I had are now MS-67+ in other registry sets. Before I sold the set I tried to get some of them up-graded but none of them did. They only up-graded to the dealers that bought them after I sold them at Heritage. I figures I lost about 15K.
I my opinion we didn't need the Plus grade at all. Most collectors new what a PQ coin was and we paid more for it accordingly. My new set is based on what I think the grade is, Not what is on the holder. Since I can't seem to get anything up-graded anyways until I sell the coin.
Here is My 66+ 42-S that won't up-grade and here is a 42-D in MS-67 for sale by someone. In my set I show pictures my MS-66 quarters instead of my MS-67 quarters because they are much nicer than my 67'S.
1942-D MS-67
My 1936 MS-66 I sure think it looks much nicer that most MS-67's .
I just wonder....I know BJ and other PCGS staff occasionally read this board, but I wonder if they are understanding the underlying turmoil that PCGS has started.
If you want to see definite evidence that the PCGS decisions are drastically destroying (can't think of a better word) the best managed registry in the world, all you have to do is look at the 2014 results for the business strike Park Quarters. Bottom line - the retail dealers are not sending high great modern coins to PCGS. They are going to NGC. Results are more consistent and turn around times (extremely important to the dealers because the early bird gets the worm) at PCGS has become grossly false advertising at best. Even the PCGS reports say that.
Maybe it is time for a change. Someone isn't reading the tea leaves.
"If you want to see definite evidence that the PCGS decisions are drastically destroying (can't think of a better word) the best managed registry in the world, all you have to do is look at the 2014 results for the business strike Park Quarters. Bottom line - the retail dealers are not sending high great modern coins to PCGS. They are going to NGC. Results are more consistent and turn around times (extremely important to the dealers because the early bird gets the worm) at PCGS has become grossly false advertising at best. Even the PCGS reports say that."
Roger: OK, I'll bite....
Let's talk about 2014 business strike Park quarters. I (home)made -2- of the POP 1 coins for the year and one of our pop -2- coins I made both of the coins in the pop as well (with the help of my daughter Lauren) and I see you have -2- POP 1 coins in your spectacular collection as well for the year. Neither one of us has an MS68 graded "S" mint coin for the year to this point. My son Justin spent the entire evening tonight screening 2014 "S" mint quarters and showed me from the fruits of his labor a coin that should grade out MS68 (or MS67+ at worst). We are wrapping up his work here at 3:00 a.m. on a Saturday night. Justin also got back from PCGS last week a dozen or so MS67 coins of which 2 or 3 look like shot MS68 coins down the road. We are not slackers ... we are putting in the time to try to slab some great Park coins. Not a single one of our coins is going to NGC? We could care less about turnaround times as long as we get our coins back by the registry deadline in June. So, what exactly is the problem?
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
What we (actually I seem to be blowing all of the hot air) have been discussing is the effects of the PCGS "+" on the PCGS registry sets. Particularly creating a new 140 grading scale that gives newer (or richer) registry sets a distinct advantage over other sets. In the case of the new sets, the older and more importantly the retired sets, are being treated unfairly because they can't participate. In the case of the older, current sets these sets are falling to the newer collectors because the older set owners can't just send 550 coins in to get regraded just to have a little "+" sign added to a label. Literally thousands of dollars for plus signs on coins already graded seems to lean just a little bit towards creating PCGS profit and not surprisingly creating more profit for the dealers involved.
"If you want to see definite evidence that the PCGS decisions are drastically destroying (can't think of a better word) the best managed registry in the world, all you have to do is look at the 2014 results for the business strike Park Quarters. Bottom line - the retail dealers are not sending high grade modern coins to PCGS. They are going to NGC. Results are more consistent and turn around times (extremely important to the dealers because the early bird gets the worm) at PCGS has become grossly false advertising at best. Even the PCGS reports say that."
First off, who has or doesn't have Pop-1's probably doesn't have much to do with this discussion - and it makes perfect sense that if you think you have a top pop - you know that one that just knocks your socks off - you would send it to PCGS - I would.
What I'm talking about is that many dealers are quietly expressing their unhappiness with PCGS's actions, not only when they created this "new" PCGS grading scheme (and that is what is), but also when PCGS launched turn around times into oblivion. If you tell me that you are going to grade and return a coin to me in 20 days, how long should I expect to wait? It doesn't have anything to do with what you can handle, it does have something to do with the company's appearance. By-the-way I have seen a marked improvement just recently in this, but I'm hoping this is just not a year-end effect.
As far as dealers going to NGC instead of PCGS - particularly starting in 2014 quarters ....
2012 NGC 5880/57.7% PCGS 4310/42.3% 2013 NGC 5849/57.8% PCGS 4262/42.2% 2014 NGC 6480/69.5% PCGS 2837/30.5%
When a company loses 10+% market share - they have a problem.
RogerDiehl - Everyone has a different take on the + grading. Some hate it like you are suggesting. Others, are OK with it, because they feel many coins deserving of top pop status (generally MS68's) were not getting the grade out of "tight" PCGS (and often times still do not get it) and at least the 67+ is half way there. As far as older sets ... many of those sets were already impacted by the fact that once they are retired they become incomplete sets when the next year of coins are released. To these sets (and there are many) the + grading means nothing. Anyway, everyone is entitled to an opinion on + grading. I, for one, can not understand why + grading is not used for 69+ graded coins. I believe it will happen one day.
As far as turnaround times ... if one wants their coin back in a day or two there is a real easy way to accomplish that - pay $65 at a show or even $55 Express for a turnaround of a few weeks instead of $16 for slow boat. Other than that, the wait is on. Nothing we can do about that.
Finally, I can not address why NGC volumes are up and PCGS down in the area of quarters and, in particular, National Park quarters. What I can say is this. My conversations with some dealers who are getting coins in NGC holders often come back to these same guys trying to cross them over to PCGS. And, PCGS has make it very inviting to try this with the $10 deal for coins that fail to cross (and before that free crossovers starting about 2 years ago). Maybe this has something to do with it? Who knows, as both PCGS and NGC are quality grading services.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I been out of Washington quarters for some time now. Who are the best boutique Washington 25c dealers these days? I am looking for a couple of nicely toned type pieces in PCGS CACS MS67 from the 30s. Possible dates include 37-s, 38-s, 39-d, 36-s, 35, 34 med, 36, 37, 38, or even a 34-d in 66. Let me know if anyone has any ideas.
Just to cause more trouble.....what is the "definition" of PCGS's "+" (plus) ????
Do you think an MS66+ is almost an MS67 ? Do you think that an MS66+ is similiar to a CAC sticker (there is another add-on sticker out there also) ? Do you think that an MS66+ is similiar to an NGC MS66+ ? Do you think that an MS66+ is similiar to an NGC MS66* (star) ? Do you think that an MS66+ is similiar to an MS66 PQ ?
What is the differenc between an MS66 and an MS66+ ?
Roger, You upload the photo to photobucket. Other sites might work, but I use Photobucket. Once uploaded, go to the photo and look to the right you will see links. The one you want is "Direct" Click on the text of the link, it will automatically copy. Come to the post you are working on, look to the top. See the little square with some blue or green in it? Click that. It will ask for the link you have copied. Paste that link and presto you are done! A bit complicated, but after you do it a million times or so it gets easy. Now, if I can just keep from posting this three times . . . . .
<< <i>Thanks to wfojonny I managed to get this far - but I beat I can't do it again......
This is a relatively recent grading by PCGS - it is graded MS-67+
Do you agree ????
>>
Based on these pics I don't agree with the grade. The color is not eye appealing, and the black spots in the prime focal areas are very distracting. IMHO it is overgaded, I would have a difficult time accepting it as a 66 coin. In any event, I wouldn't pay 65 money for this coin. It is just not a very attractive piece.
What we've got here is failure to communicate.....
Well.....I just hope your 1945-D, MS-67+ looks better than that one.
How can anyone, not to mention PCGS, stand there and say that this totally subjective "+" concept has any value to anyone ?
Basing a "grade" (and that is what this is doing) on the "minor" and "very minor" imperfections (we won't mention "slight" and "very slight"), and of all things "attractive eye appeal" (whatever that is), is a senseless attempt so that the selling community can destroy everything we have today.
MS/PR-67 Virtually as struck with minor imperfections, very well struck MS/PR-67+ Virtually as struck with very minor imperfections, very well struck with attractive eye appeal
The theoretical concept may have had good intentions, but the execution has been a total failure.
You will notice something very scary. The PCGS plus'ing (+) started in 2010 and it looks like a MS-67+ was found in 2012 (maybe Wondercoin can confirm?). At which time PCGS estimated the price at $8000. Almost simultaneously the price history of the MS-67's dropped from $2500 to about $1600. And the auction prices in CoinFacts shows that MS-67's dropped to sell for $800-$1100.
So what is happening is that the lucky person that gets the extremely (1-2) "+" coins gets to list their coin for a significant cost above the non-"+" coins. But......at the same time those who have the non-"+" coins take a tremendous haircut - for absolutely no reason.
I wonder what sells better .... the $8000 "+" or the $800 non-"+".
I can see quite a few dealers going out of business even though they have plenty, really nice, high grade coins. But unfortunately they bought them before 2010 and they are stuck with a bunch of losers.
My interest won't be the "+" coins - can't sell them at any time in the future (like after I'm pushing up daisys) - too expensive (hype) for the product.
I'll be watching the non-"+" coins. Now looking specifically for the ones that are PQ, look "+" and are seriously reduced in price from the days before 2012. Those are the bargains.
If I can find a "+" for a near non-"+" price I won't pass it up, but the dealers can generally keep those in their display cases.
This certainly the most knowledgeable group of Washington guys that.I have ever seen in one place. Perhaps I could ask a question. Regarding the assessment of strike. What do you guys look for? I judge the obvious stuff like breastfeathers, hair detail. But I have little knowledge of the nuance of judging strike. What should I be looking for? Jon
I don't see the PCGS "+" as a negative thing. It has its value. But it is in the "eye of the beholder" not in a registry set.
But it is nothing for than an indicator to the buyers that the coin has high "eye appeal" - it is no different than putting "PQ", or NGC"+" or NGC"*" or CAC or MAC.....etc.
It means another pair of eyes looked at it and they are happy with the grade and its overall look. I can get a similar feeling from a nice set of photos.
I'd be willing to consider a 10%-25% markup on a "+" coin (if photos are provided) because I know the seller made an effort and isn't trying to hide something.
But all the stickers and labels in the world won't excuse a big, ugly corrosion spot - and the one thing I truly hate.....a big, ugly, thumb print.
I had a '+' coin (not a Washington Quarter) that would improve a #2 registry set and offered this coin to the set owner.
He thanked me and passed since he considered the '+' program a gimmick by PCGS.
I wonder how many other registry set owners think and act the same. >>
My take on the + grading ruined it for most of Us. There aren't any new registry sets being made. and some are even selling there sets. It became to much of a greed game. I am not submitting quarters anymore. I have submitted over 1000 quarters in the past, but it is just got out of hand now.
This used to be really fun for me. I wish the + grading never happened. Just My 3 cents.
Comments
I checked the dimes - the Roosevelt Dimes FB Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1946-Present) has the same "problem", the top sets are showing SP's for 2005 through 2010.
I checked the nickels - the Jefferson Nickels Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1938-present) has the same "problem".
I checked the cents - the Lincoln Cents Basic Set, Circulation Strikes (1909-Present) has the same "problem"
Perhaps your best bet is to ask BJ to create additional sets in the manner you desire?
Wondercoin.
I'll email BJ and see what she says.
I would personally have no problem with additional sets. I appreciate just how tough those business strike coins are!
Wondercoin
NEWP's? OLDP's?
My last pick-up was 1939-D. It's MS65 and in an Omaha Bank Hoard holder but I think it's solid for the grade.
No color though.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
My claim is that the PCGS form of "+" (plus) designation is a scam brought upon collectors by PCGS and the dealers they support, and provides no value to the collecting community.
The concept of "+" is not a new thing. It has been going on forever in multiple forms "+", PQ(premium quality), star, etc.....
The designation in itself has no objective authority, it merely means that in "someone's eyes" it has really nice eye appeal. That could mean blazingly, shiny white to some. That could mean beautifully toned to others. And it could mean "almost the next grade" to others.
I don't have any problem with any of these as long as you show me the coin or some decent pictures so I can make up my own mind.
What I do have a problem with is someone like PCGS attempting to make it a de facto standard of some illusive kind. First off (and a lot of people are falling for this) is that a coin graded as a "+" coin has some kind of "super" value and rarity? Of course the PCGS price guides are full of this fluff. Recently in the quarters I've seen an MS66+ PCGS recommended price 6 times the value of an MS66. And not surprisingly....multiple auctions listed that follow that logic. That's insane.
PCGS has further "rewarded" owners and buyers of the "+" coins in providing them with "extra" point values in the PCGS registry sets. What do you think that has done to the registry sets ??????
How do you compare your "+" sets to the "All-Time" list of sets where many of these sets are already retired ????? Since the advent of this "+" thing I've seen numerous highly regarded retired sets virtually disappear for the All-Time lists. The retired sets are no doomed to the bottom of the pile - even though I suspect that there are very much better.
What is the meaning of the now doomed "Classic Sets" ???? They have no meaning now as they rules have all been rewritten in the name of "+". The whole purpuse of the "Classic Sets" were to be able to compare our current day sets to those of the old days.
And what has quietly been done in the newest product - CoinFacts ???? Does it logically and correctly present populations any longer ???? No....
Pick any quarter - and go to it in CoinFacts - when it first comes up (and everytime you refresh), it isn't showing the "+" grades. Now a normal person would assume that if you are showing the MS66+ coins, the MS66+ population would be combined into the MS66 population - Right????
No - press the "Show Plus Grades" button and you will find that PCGS doesn't consider an MS66+ coin a member of the MS66 universe - they aren't MS66's and they aren't MS67's - then what are the MS66+ coins. .... another grade. Of course this makes MS66 appear rarer because the MS66 population isn't accounting for the MS66+ populations.
I highly suggest that PCGS change their grading scale from 1-70 to 1-140. That is really what they are doing isn't it ????
I'm sure a major monetary killing is being made in regrades/attributions. A "+" is a highly valuable spot of ink on a coin label.
For the 1951-P (5846) quarter - an MS-67, Pop 51, Guide Price $375. Now if you have one of these you might want to start repeatedly sending it into PCGS for a regrade......an MS-67+ (now the top pop?), Pop 3, Guide Price $5000. What someone thinks it is pretty and it instantly becomes the Top Pop and has a value 13 times that of is basic MS67 brothern....$375 to $5000 - really ????
Very few can even dependably handly 70 degrees of grading - what makes anyone thinks that can now split hairs consistently and honorably handle about 140 grades ????
I think I'll start an "Ugly Pluses" thread.
<< <i>How About A Little Board Controversy.... My claim is that the PCGS form of "+" (plus) designation is a scam brought upon collectors by PCGS and the dealers they support, and provides no value to the collecting community. The concept of "+" is not a new thing. It has been going on forever in multiple forms "+", PQ(premium quality), star, etc..... The designation in itself has no objective authority, it merely means that in "someone's eyes" it has really nice eye appeal. That could mean blazingly, shiny white to some. That could mean beautifully toned to others. And it could mean "almost the next grade" to others. I don't have any problem with any of these as long as you show me the coin or some decent pictures so I can make up my own mind. What I do have a problem with is someone like PCGS attempting to make it a de facto standard of some illusive kind. First off (and a lot of people are falling for this) is that a coin graded as a "+" coin has some kind of "super" value and rarity? Of course the PCGS price guides are full of this fluff. Recently in the quarters I've seen an MS66+ PCGS recommended price 6 times the value of an MS66. And not surprisingly....multiple auctions listed that follow that logic. That's insane. PCGS has further "rewarded" owners and buyers of the "+" coins in providing them with "extra" point values in the PCGS registry sets. What do you think that has done to the registry sets ?????? How do you compare your "+" sets to the "All-Time" list of sets where many of these sets are already retired ????? Since the advent of this "+" thing I've seen numerous highly regarded retired sets virtually disappear for the All-Time lists. The retired sets are no doomed to the bottom of the pile - even though I suspect that there are very much better. What is the meaning of the now doomed "Classic Sets" ???? They have no meaning now as they rules have all been rewritten in the name of "+". The whole purpuse of the "Classic Sets" were to be able to compare our current day sets to those of the old days. And what has quietly been done in the newest product - CoinFacts ???? Does it logically and correctly present populations any longer ???? No.... Pick any quarter - and go to it in CoinFacts - when it first comes up (and everytime you refresh), it isn't showing the "+" grades. Now a normal person would assume that if you are showing the MS66+ coins, the MS66+ population would be combined into the MS66 population - Right???? No - press the "Show Plus Grades" button and you will find that PCGS doesn't consider an MS66+ coin a member of the MS66 universe - they aren't MS66's and they aren't MS67's - then what are the MS66+ coins. .... another grade. Of course this makes MS66 appear rarer because the MS66 population isn't accounting for the MS66+ populations. I highly suggest that PCGS change their grading scale from 1-70 to 1-140. That is really what they are doing isn't it ???? I'm sure a major monetary killing is being made in regrades/attributions. A "+" is a highly valuable spot of ink on a coin label. For the 1951-P (5846) quarter - an MS-67, Pop 51, Guide Price $375. Now if you have one of these you might want to start repeatedly sending it into PCGS for a regrade......an MS-67+ (now the top pop?), Pop 3, Guide Price $5000. What someone thinks it is pretty and it instantly becomes the Top Pop and has a value 13 times that of is basic MS67 brothern....$375 to $5000 - really ???? Very few can even dependably handly 70 degrees of grading - what makes anyone thinks that can now split hairs consistently and honorably handle about 140 grades ???? I think I'll start an "Ugly Pluses" thread. >>
Roger,
I am not really into controversy, but I will say that I have been a member for a very long time. My post count is not very high and I normally do not post unless I have something I feel is important to add to the conversation. There are posts I really enjoy over others and this just happens to be one of them. Now, that being said - I would hate to see this post go poof or worse to see another member get banned....... So here is my opinion that's just from a part time collector.
Many years ago coins grades were described as BU, select BU and even GEM BU. There were times they had split grades 63/65 for the obverse / reverse. There has been net grading, market grading and even some that are called color bumps. Plain and simple the + was explained as being a way to acknowledge a coin as approaching the next grade. Now, again I say this is my opnion and I hope I do not cross the line.... The * used by NGC is for eye appealing coins, isn't eye appeal a part of the grade? I think the + is a better attribute of the coins grade (based on that time and day it was reviewed) of the over all graders opinion (that is why we get our coins graded right? for an UN-biased opinion). Do we really need someone to only tell us the eye appeal is really nice for a coin? Can't we see that? I need to know if a coin is possibly approaching the next higher grade. Maybe I cannot afford a 68, but a 67+ could fill the bill just fine. Now as far as the registry and points, I have coins here and across the street. Again, my opinion only - I think the weights are more realistic here and not so inflated based only on eye appeal. Now for Coinfacts, I had it for 1 year and enjoyed it. Could it be better, sure it can. You know what, it is a work in progress and as far as I could tell it continued to improve the time I subscribed to it. Can you honestly say that you never noticed any improvements? Now before anyone asks about the Koolaid I'm drinking - I'll just say that If I did not like the service here I always know I can leave at anytime. I could go on, but that's not who I am - I just ask you to not use a great thread as a soap box and let's keep this professional.
Here is a little beauty just a plain old MS65 with original end roll toning
My Washington Type B/C Set
PCGS has further "rewarded" owners and buyers of the "+" coins in providing them with "extra" point values in the PCGS registry sets. What do you think that has done to the registry sets ??????
How do you compare your "+" sets to the "All-Time" list of sets where many of these sets are already retired ????? Since the advent of this "+" thing I've seen numerous highly regarded retired sets virtually disappear from the All-Time lists. The retired sets are now doomed to the bottom of the pile - even though I suspect that they are very much better than shown.
What is the meaning of the now doomed "Classic Sets" ???? They have no meaning now as the rules have all been rewritten in the name of "+". The whole purpose of the "Classic Sets" were to be able to compare our current day sets to those of the old days.
I agree with everything that you said. The + grade ruined it for most of the collectors in the registry. Some of the top collectors sold there sets or are selling there sets because of this. They simply do not want to play what they call the "Game" anymore.
MS-67 quarters plummeted since the + grades started. I see nice MS-67 quarters sell at Heritage for 5 times price guide, yet the price guide continues to go down. Is the price guide for 67 quarters now based only on ugly MS-67 quarters that sell on Ebay?
My retired set Retired set was once #2 and is now #5. But since I sold the set 15 on My MS-67 quarters I had are now MS-67+ in other registry sets. Before I sold the set I tried to get some of them up-graded but none of them did. They only up-graded to the dealers that bought them after I sold them at Heritage. I figures I lost about 15K.
I my opinion we didn't need the Plus grade at all. Most collectors new what a PQ coin was and we paid more for it accordingly.
My new set is based on what I think the grade is, Not what is on the holder. Since I can't seem to get anything up-graded anyways until I sell the coin.
Here is My 66+ 42-S that won't up-grade and here is a 42-D in MS-67 for sale by someone. In my set I show pictures my MS-66 quarters instead of my MS-67 quarters because they are much nicer than my 67'S.
1942-D MS-67
My 1936 MS-66 I sure think it looks much nicer that most MS-67's .
If you want to see definite evidence that the PCGS decisions are drastically destroying (can't think of a better word) the best managed registry in the world, all you have to do is look at the 2014 results for the business strike Park Quarters. Bottom line - the retail dealers are not sending high great modern coins to PCGS. They are going to NGC. Results are more consistent and turn around times (extremely important to the dealers because the early bird gets the worm) at PCGS has become grossly false advertising at best. Even the PCGS reports say that.
Maybe it is time for a change. Someone isn't reading the tea leaves.
Funny but it hits close to home.
That 42-S is very pretty
My Washington Type B/C Set
Roger: OK, I'll bite....
Let's talk about 2014 business strike Park quarters. I (home)made -2- of the POP 1 coins for the year and one of our pop -2- coins I made both of the coins in the pop as well (with the help of my daughter Lauren) and I see you have -2- POP 1 coins in your spectacular collection as well for the year. Neither one of us has an MS68 graded "S" mint coin for the year to this point. My son Justin spent the entire evening tonight screening 2014 "S" mint quarters and showed me from the fruits of his labor a coin that should grade out MS68 (or MS67+ at worst). We are wrapping up his work here at 3:00 a.m. on a Saturday night. Justin also got back from PCGS last week a dozen or so MS67 coins of which 2 or 3 look like shot MS68 coins down the road. We are not slackers ... we are putting in the time to try to slab some great Park coins. Not a single one of our coins is going to NGC? We could care less about turnaround times as long as we get our coins back by the registry deadline in June. So, what exactly is the problem?
Wondercoin
AKA
Worthless Doubling
But still pretty dramatic
What we (actually I seem to be blowing all of the hot air) have been discussing is the effects of the PCGS "+" on the PCGS registry sets. Particularly creating a new 140 grading scale that gives newer (or richer) registry sets a distinct advantage over other sets. In the case of the new sets, the older and more importantly the retired sets, are being treated unfairly because they can't participate. In the case of the older, current sets these sets are falling to the newer collectors because the older set owners can't just send 550 coins in to get regraded just to have a little "+" sign added to a label. Literally thousands of dollars for plus signs on coins already graded seems to lean just a little bit towards creating PCGS profit and not surprisingly creating more profit for the dealers involved.
"If you want to see definite evidence that the PCGS decisions are drastically destroying (can't think of a better word) the best managed registry in the world, all you have to do is look at the 2014 results for the business strike Park Quarters. Bottom line - the retail dealers are not sending high grade modern coins to PCGS. They are going to NGC. Results are more consistent and turn around times (extremely important to the dealers because the early bird gets the worm) at PCGS has become grossly false advertising at best. Even the PCGS reports say that."
First off, who has or doesn't have Pop-1's probably doesn't have much to do with this discussion - and it makes perfect sense that if you think you have a top pop - you know that one that just knocks your socks off - you would send it to PCGS - I would.
What I'm talking about is that many dealers are quietly expressing their unhappiness with PCGS's actions, not only when they created this "new" PCGS grading scheme (and that is what is), but also when PCGS launched turn around times into oblivion. If you tell me that you are going to grade and return a coin to me in 20 days, how long should I expect to wait? It doesn't have anything to do with what you can handle, it does have something to do with the company's appearance. By-the-way I have seen a marked improvement just recently in this, but I'm hoping this is just not a year-end effect.
As far as dealers going to NGC instead of PCGS - particularly starting in 2014 quarters ....
2012 NGC 5880/57.7% PCGS 4310/42.3%
2013 NGC 5849/57.8% PCGS 4262/42.2%
2014 NGC 6480/69.5% PCGS 2837/30.5%
When a company loses 10+% market share - they have a problem.
As far as turnaround times ... if one wants their coin back in a day or two there is a real easy way to accomplish that - pay $65 at a show or even $55 Express for a turnaround of a few weeks instead of $16 for slow boat. Other than that, the wait is on. Nothing we can do about that.
Finally, I can not address why NGC volumes are up and PCGS down in the area of quarters and, in particular, National Park quarters. What I can say is this. My conversations with some dealers who are getting coins in NGC holders often come back to these same guys trying to cross them over to PCGS. And, PCGS has make it very inviting to try this with the $10 deal for coins that fail to cross (and before that free crossovers starting about 2 years ago). Maybe this has something to do with it? Who knows, as both PCGS and NGC are quality grading services.
As always, just my two cents.
Wondercoin
Thank you for the help.
Greg
Thanks!
Greg,
Welcome back. Haven't seen you post in some time. I know Bob was sick, but I have not heard any info lately. A couple searches from 2005
2006
Here are a couple more just graded
Cert look up
Cert look up
My Washington Type B/C Set
Greg
Nice additions to your collection Ken (regardless of actual grades).
Wondercoin
Thanks. Well, I am really stoked about my other sub - 3 Type B re-grades ALL 3 upgraded
My Washington Type B/C Set
Wondercoin
I keep listening to all you smart quarter guys, eventually I have to learn something or get a little lucky
My Washington Type B/C Set
I was hoping that the answer to Typetones question was going to be posted here.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
1942-D MS-67
And somebody paid $411.25 for it! Through Heritage.
Could it have been counterfeited?
Cracked and replaced with a different coin?
They should have made it an MS-67+ (plus cuts and stitches) :-) I couldn't resist.
<< <i>Don't miss it.....go to Youtube and seach for "PCGS CAC". Look for a strange video - should be one of the first 5 or so.
Funny but it hits close to home. >>
"Can't let Eva know how much I spent!"
Bwaaaaa Ha Ha Ha ha ha!!!
Do you think an MS66+ is almost an MS67 ?
Do you think that an MS66+ is similiar to a CAC sticker (there is another add-on sticker out there also) ?
Do you think that an MS66+ is similiar to an NGC MS66+ ?
Do you think that an MS66+ is similiar to an NGC MS66* (star) ?
Do you think that an MS66+ is similiar to an MS66 PQ ?
What is the differenc between an MS66 and an MS66+ ?
Inquiring minds want to know
I have never been able to attach a jpg to a post.
Does anyone have the "Collector's Universe for Dummies" text ????
You upload the photo to photobucket. Other sites might work, but I use Photobucket.
Once uploaded, go to the photo and look to the right you will see links. The one you want is "Direct" Click on the text of the link, it will automatically copy.
Come to the post you are working on, look to the top. See the little square with some blue or green in it? Click that.
It will ask for the link you have copied. Paste that link and presto you are done! A bit complicated, but after you do it a million times or so it gets easy.
Now, if I can just keep from posting this three times . . . . .
This is a relatively recent grading by PCGS - it is graded MS-67+
Do you agree ????
<< <i>Thanks to wfojonny I managed to get this far - but I beat I can't do it again......
This is a relatively recent grading by PCGS - it is graded MS-67+
Do you agree ????
Based on these pics I don't agree with the grade. The color is not eye appealing, and the black spots in the prime focal areas are very distracting. IMHO it is overgaded, I would have a difficult time accepting it as a 66 coin. In any event, I wouldn't pay 65 money for this coin. It is just not a very attractive piece.
Successful BST xactions w/PCcoins, Drunner, Manofcoins, Rampage, docg, Poppee, RobKool, and MichealDixon.
Wondercoin
What do you mean
Wondercoin
I think that is 7 of my pop 1 silver quarters coins going to pop 2 in the past year.
Nothing is forever.
Wondercoin
How can anyone, not to mention PCGS, stand there and say that this totally subjective "+" concept has any value to anyone ?
Basing a "grade" (and that is what this is doing) on the "minor" and "very minor" imperfections (we won't mention "slight" and "very slight"), and of all things "attractive eye appeal" (whatever that is), is a senseless attempt so that the selling community can destroy everything we have today.
http://www.pcgs.com/grades/
MS/PR-67 Virtually as struck with minor imperfections, very well struck
MS/PR-67+ Virtually as struck with very minor imperfections, very well struck with attractive eye appeal
The theoretical concept may have had good intentions, but the execution has been a total failure.
However they are there and I don't think it should be at the head of the graded class.
"If I say something in the woods and my wife isn't there to hear it.....am I still wrong?"
My Washington Quarter Registry set...in progress
Take that 1945-D for example:
Look at the price history for the MS-67.
http://www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=5828-67
and the price history of the MS-67+
http://www.pcgs.com/pricehistory#/?=5828-67+
You will notice something very scary. The PCGS plus'ing (+) started in 2010 and it looks like a MS-67+ was found in 2012 (maybe Wondercoin can confirm?). At which time PCGS estimated the price at $8000. Almost simultaneously the price history of the MS-67's dropped from $2500 to about $1600. And the auction prices in CoinFacts shows that MS-67's dropped to sell for $800-$1100.
So what is happening is that the lucky person that gets the extremely (1-2) "+" coins gets to list their coin for a significant cost above the non-"+" coins. But......at the same time those who have the non-"+" coins take a tremendous haircut - for absolutely no reason.
I wonder what sells better .... the $8000 "+" or the $800 non-"+".
I can see quite a few dealers going out of business even though they have plenty, really nice, high grade coins. But unfortunately they bought them before 2010 and they are stuck with a bunch of losers.
I'm planning on shifting a little bit.
My interest won't be the "+" coins - can't sell them at any time in the future (like after I'm pushing up daisys) - too expensive (hype) for the product.
I'll be watching the non-"+" coins. Now looking specifically for the ones that are PQ, look "+" and are seriously reduced in price from the days before 2012. Those are the bargains.
If I can find a "+" for a near non-"+" price I won't pass it up, but the dealers can generally keep those in their display cases.
Wondercoin
Perhaps I could ask a question.
Regarding the assessment of strike. What do you guys look for?
I judge the obvious stuff like breastfeathers, hair detail. But I have little knowledge of the nuance of judging strike.
What should I be looking for?
Jon
I had a '+' coin (not a Washington Quarter) that would improve a #2 registry set and offered this coin to the set owner.
He thanked me and passed since he considered the '+' program a gimmick by PCGS.
I wonder how many other registry set owners think and act the same.
But it is nothing for than an indicator to the buyers that the coin has high "eye appeal" - it is no different than putting "PQ", or NGC"+" or NGC"*" or CAC or MAC.....etc.
It means another pair of eyes looked at it and they are happy with the grade and its overall look. I can get a similar feeling from a nice set of photos.
I'd be willing to consider a 10%-25% markup on a "+" coin (if photos are provided) because I know the seller made an effort and isn't trying to hide something.
But all the stickers and labels in the world won't excuse a big, ugly corrosion spot - and the one thing I truly hate.....a big, ugly, thumb print.
<< <i>FWIW:
I had a '+' coin (not a Washington Quarter) that would improve a #2 registry set and offered this coin to the set owner.
He thanked me and passed since he considered the '+' program a gimmick by PCGS.
I wonder how many other registry set owners think and act the same. >>
My take on the + grading ruined it for most of Us. There aren't any new registry sets being made. and some are even selling there sets. It became to much of a greed game.
I am not submitting quarters anymore. I have submitted over 1000 quarters in the past, but it is just got out of hand now.
This used to be really fun for me. I wish the + grading never happened.
Just My 3 cents.