At some point I think the correlation will get lost between unopened and the cards inside. Not entirely, but at some point the reason that collectors are demanding unopened will be to have a unique unopened product, not worrying about what's inside. It's the logical next step, IMO. Vintage unopened was dirt cheap back in the 80s... and slowly started to increase in price due to a rise in demand (and scarcity of it). Then graded cards became big and big $$, so unopened prices rose even further because of the potential hit of a PSA 10 (all while supply was still dwindling). The next step very well could be the separation of the value of cards inside and the price of the case/box/pack. Just look at the mythical unopened case of 86 Fleer BK... people are willing to pay thousands of dollars just to see it! I'm sure if one ever did hit market, it would have sell for much, much more than the going rate of that many unopened boxes... and the buyer, I'm sure, would never open it. Sitting on a 1/1 (known) case of one of the most storied sets in the industry... far worth more than the cards inside.
Just to throw a little more fuel on the fire. I saw this little clip about Sotheby's and the art market:
"Earnings for the last quarter were decent but there are signs the hot art market may be cooling. Nearly 1/3 of the works in an auction of impressionist and modern works last night went unsold. The auction brought in a relatively disappointing $219 million."
That being said, I am a unopened bull and still think there is a little more room to run for the late 1970's and early 1980's product. They have become a store of value in the hobby.
<< <i>Big difference. The stock market run-up was being fueled by a lot of people with limited understanding of what the market was all about. For the ML group break I can assure you that quite a bit of experience and knowledge is the underpinning of all our efforts. >>
No doubt.
But you know what is fascinating? Who's going to make out best this month? The whale, the "smart money", the man who has, by all appearances, done ridiculously, outlandishly well for himself. He is selling the top and going into gold! >>
+1, this is a great time for profit taking for those with the foresight to stash a significant amount. Essentially giving a blank check to those with experience and knowledge sets off alarm bells in my head. I wish those who are participating the best, but have chosen to sit on the sidelines. >>
If trying to be a bit creative to get a chance to participate to as many as possible versus doing nothing and just watching the bigger fish go after the prize sets of your 'alarm bells' then you might want to get some professional help for that kind of insecurity.
The track record of those of us who are trying to make something happen here is pretty solid amongst this community. We are far from perfect, but I sincerely doubt that you can find anyone who could provide any sort of legitimate evidence that would undermine any of us in terms of being credible and completely honest.
In fact, the whole basis of getting multiple people to work through the bid determination was to insure that there would NOT be a blank check mentality.
In the end I am quite confident that our efforts were nothing less than the best effort that could be made to be both competitive and realistic. If you want to constructively criticize any aspect of the effort we are making I would be pleased to see it raised publicly for discussion and consideration. But to simply introduce baseless negativity is doing a disservice to everyone.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Big difference. The stock market run-up was being fueled by a lot of people with limited understanding of what the market was all about. For the ML group break I can assure you that quite a bit of experience and knowledge is the underpinning of all our efforts. >>
No doubt.
But you know what is fascinating? Who's going to make out best this month? The whale, the "smart money", the man who has, by all appearances, done ridiculously, outlandishly well for himself. He is selling the top and going into gold! >>
+1, this is a great time for profit taking for those with the foresight to stash a significant amount. Essentially giving a blank check to those with experience and knowledge sets off alarm bells in my head. I wish those who are participating the best, but have chosen to sit on the sidelines. >>
If trying to be a bit creative to get a chance to participate to as many as possible versus doing nothing and just watching the bigger fish go after the prize sets of your 'alarm bells' then you might want to get some professional help for that kind of insecurity.
The track record of those of us who are trying to make something happen here is pretty solid amongst this community. We are far from perfect, but I sincerely doubt that you can find anyone who could provide any sort of legitimate evidence that would undermine any of us in terms of being credible and completely honest.
In fact, the whole basis of getting multiple people to work through the bid determination was to insure that there would NOT be a blank check mentality.
In the end I am quite confident that our efforts were nothing less than the best effort that could be made to be both competitive and realistic. If you want to constructively criticize any aspect of the effort we are making I would be pleased to see it raised publicly for discussion and consideration. But to simply introduce baseless negativity is doing a disservice to everyone. >>
The people involved from the board going after this unopened has nothing to do with it and I in no way intended to impugn any of their reputations. It's the pre-bubble mentality, including the large influx of 'investors' and straying significantly from the probable value of the contents, that sets off alarm bells. You can say it's not a 'blank check', but no one outside of the small group knows what they're potentially paying. This is not the way I personally collect or invest, but to each their own. Perhaps reading my prior post (following the wine analogy) would have given some context.
I'm involved in this "potential group rip" and here's my take. I've got extra cash to spend and I enjoy the rush that comes from ripping '70's unopened. I'm probably one of the few that does rip everything I get from these rips and BBCE. I have never purchased any unopened thinking about it as a investment. I purchase strictly for the fun of ripping!! If I don't make money off a rip than who cares, I can always work and make more!!
Given that the substantial majority (value-wise) of my baseball collection has been in 1970s unopened since I got started collecting again a few years ago, these threads are always fascinating. I don't know where prices will head, but barring a macroeconomic shock, I don't foresee any substantial value decline for pre-1980, pre-1978 at worst. There isn't enough supply to cause a significant imbalance. 1981-on is much more susceptible, but 1982-83 wax, for example, is selling for only marginally more than it did 15 years ago.
Probably most fascinating to me is why price-related threads here have been almost exclusively on unopened product. I don't follow graded card prices that closely, but have noticed a substantial upswing in high-grade/low population cards from the 1970s: Schmidt, Brett, Yount, Dawson, Eck, Molitor, Murray, Ozzie, and Henderson RCs, to name a few. And this is without the benefit of an ever-declining supply.
<< <i>Given that the substantial majority (value-wise) of my baseball collection has been in 1970s unopened since I got started collecting again a few years ago, these threads are always fascinating. I don't know where prices will head, but barring a macroeconomic shock, I don't foresee any substantial value decline for pre-1980, pre-1978 at worst. There isn't enough supply to cause a significant imbalance. 1981-on is much more susceptible, but 1982-83 wax, for example, is selling for only marginally more than it did 15 years ago.
Probably most fascinating to me is why price-related threads here have been almost exclusively on unopened product. I don't follow graded card prices that closely, but have noticed a substantial upswing in high-grade/low population cards from the 1970s: Schmidt, Brett, Yount, Dawson, Eck, Molitor, Murray, Ozzie, and Henderson RCs, to name a few. And this is without the benefit of an ever-declining supply. >>
Wow...you said that perfectly!!! Every time I read one of the hundreds of posts stating that the unopened material is way "overpriced", I can't help but wonder why these same posters aren't talking about "overpriced" individual cards....maybe they think they are overpriced too but just don't mention it?? Or, maybe they don't think the rising prices on individual cards is as alarming. I see a far more logical argument/basis supporting the rising prices of unopened material than I do trying to explain the rising prices of the individual cards.
Unopened material = guaranteed less of it today than tomorrow High grade individual cards = virtually guaranteed to RISE in population
Additionally, the pool of "players" in the individual card market would seemingly have to grow for the pricing to grow, whereas the pool of "players" in the unopened market could actually stay the same or even shrink and the pricing would rise.
I can't speak for all the other unopened guys, but I really don't follow what cards with good grades since I never get one in a vintage pack. I really think there is $100 worth of cards in my whole unopened collection.
To bigdcards: "you are right" - cpamike "That is correct" -grote15
Great thread...buying high quality unopened is the key. When and if I eventually sell, I will hope that people will want to inspect my boxes and packs. Unopened prices of quality product will continue to go up in value as comparable to high end graded cards.
<< <i>I would say that the current state of the unopened vintage market is more of a Ponzi scheme than a bubble market. Unopened is meant to be opened and most of it will end up being opened at SOME point, leaving the person who opened it holding the bag (of prime value), since opening it will lose money 90% of the time.
Example;
Person A buys 1980 Topps baseball box for $1,000, sells to B for $1,200, who sells to C for $1,500 who sells to D for $1,700 who opens it and now has $50 worth of baseball cards, etc... >>
This reminds me of when the new product comes out with a high buy per box prices say $70. Even if you pull a $70 card what dealer will offer you more than 40%. $30 return on a $70 purchase. But if you are truly just a collector and the "hits" don't really matter, it won't matter to such a person. However a "hit"/insert can at least susidize the box purchase, where the base cards value won't accomplish this. In the case of older product obviously you must nail a star card or a highly graded specimen as the product is devoid of the "hit"/insert edge to ease the pain of the inital buyin. I am avoiding any entry into the older product purchase, but I wish nothing but success for those that are into the chase.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
Just a thought/theory. As per a previous post in relation to the rising prices accorded star/high grade cards. Is this existing due to more cards being sent in for grading and NOT achieving the coveted 9/10's therby leaving the existing ones in the purchase pool with the same amount of buyers but, less product to choose from? Also the more unopened that remains unopened limits the chance of a 9 or 10 to exist other that the perceived possibility one could be contained w/in the pack. Thereby less available w/in the demand market. Also if the available unopened IS eventually opened with no 9/10's resulting from the rips, and word spreads of less available due to these rips, that furthers the scarcity of 9/10's and the value will rise on these singles provided the demand exists.
Successful transactions:Tookybandit. "Everyone is equal, some are more equal than others".
you're overthinking this . and i'm getting a headache.
simplify and we'll all feel better.
the outrageous money being paid for boxes, etc. has little to do with the contents inside. rich folks are not paying sick money to enjoy the privilege of fishing out $10 PSA 9 commons.
the sealed, authenticated, UNOPENED product is intended to be the show. what's inside is just part of the overall expectation that it is pristine, untouched, untampered and brand freeking new.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>you're overthinking this . and i'm getting a headache.
simplify and we'll all feel better.
the outrageous money being paid for boxes, etc. has little to do with the contents inside. rich folks are not paying sick money to enjoy the privilege of fishing out $10 PSA 9 commons.
the sealed, authenticated, UNOPENED product is intended to be the show. what's inside is just part of the overall expectation that it is pristine, untouched, untampered and brand freeking new. >>
Everyone, I think, knows that. That's not the point. No one is questioning the validity of the value of vintage unopened in general. The issue is that some believe certain eras (late '70s to early '80s) of unopened are skyrocketing at the moment and are wondering why when the lack of supply seems to be only perceived, and controlled, to an extent, by one company with a vested interest.
if you read the post directly above mine, then i'm not sure that i'd agree with you.
"skyrocketing" has been as much a part of our hobby or business for as long as it's been part of any discussion. this shouldn't come as such a huge surprise if you've studied your history.
start with '89 Upper Deck Baseball and work from there. some things people just gotta have. there doesn't need to be a logical explanation attached to it.
<< <i>you're overthinking this . and i'm getting a headache.
simplify and we'll all feel better.
the outrageous money being paid for boxes, etc. has little to do with the contents inside. rich folks are not paying sick money to enjoy the privilege of fishing out $10 PSA 9 commons.
the sealed, authenticated, UNOPENED product is intended to be the show. what's inside is just part of the overall expectation that it is pristine, untouched, untampered and brand freeking new. >>
Everyone, I think, knows that. That's not the point. No one is questioning the validity of the value of vintage unopened in general. The issue is that some believe certain eras (late '70s to early '80s) of unopened are skyrocketing at the moment and are wondering why when the lack of supply seems to be only perceived, and controlled, to an extent, by one company with a vested interest. >>
LOL, yes, I can see them now--Steve and Reed standing before full pallets of 78-80 unopened cases rubbing their palms together and laughing maniacally.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>you're overthinking this . and i'm getting a headache.
simplify and we'll all feel better.
the outrageous money being paid for boxes, etc. has little to do with the contents inside. rich folks are not paying sick money to enjoy the privilege of fishing out $10 PSA 9 commons.
the sealed, authenticated, UNOPENED product is intended to be the show. what's inside is just part of the overall expectation that it is pristine, untouched, untampered and brand freeking new. >>
Everyone, I think, knows that. That's not the point. No one is questioning the validity of the value of vintage unopened in general. The issue is that some believe certain eras (late '70s to early '80s) of unopened are skyrocketing at the moment and are wondering why when the lack of supply seems to be only perceived, and controlled, to an extent, by one company with a vested interest. >>
LOL, yes, I can see them now--Steve and Reed standing before full pallets of 78-80 unopened cases rubbing their palms together and laughing maniacally. >>
LOL, yes, I can see them now--Steve and Reed standing before empty pallets of 78-80 unopened cases rubbing their palms together and laughing maniacally because they just sold them at a 200% profit and have more on the way.
Empty cases? Considering the fact that it's now been well over a year since BBCE had either a 78 or a 79 baseball wax box for sale on their site, I'd say your scenario is about as accurate as the majority of your posts.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Empty cases? Considering the fact that it's now been well over a year since BBCE had either a 78 or a 79 baseball wax box for sale on their site, I'd say your scenario is about as accurate as the majority of your posts. >>
"...on their site..." If you disagree with my sentiments in this discussion, so be it. But is it necessary to be a d-bag and make personal attacks by needlessly attacking my past posts. Grow up.
<< <i>Empty cases? Considering the fact that it's now been well over a year since BBCE had either a 78 or a 79 baseball wax box for sale on their site, I'd say your scenario is about as accurate as the majority of your posts. >>
If you disagree with my sentiments in this discussion, so be it. But is it necessary to be a d-bag and make personal attacks by needlessly attacking my past posts. Grow up. >>
Says the guy accusing Steve Hart, a PSA staff member, btw, of market manipulation with absolutely no basis or factual proof.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Empty cases? Considering the fact that it's now been well over a year since BBCE had either a 78 or a 79 baseball wax box for sale on their site, I'd say your scenario is about as accurate as the majority of your posts. >>
If you disagree with my sentiments in this discussion, so be it. But is it necessary to be a d-bag and make personal attacks by needlessly attacking my past posts. Grow up. >>
Says the guy accusing Steve Hart, a PSA staff member, btw, of market manipulation with absolutely no basis or factual proof. >>
I'm not ACCUSING anyone of anything. I have my opinions and I am simply stating them. I have no evidence, so accusing is a HUGE leap. I'm allowed to think what I want, right. Or do I have to submit to hive-mind. As I said, grow up.
Looky, someone who collects vintage unopened is having a hissy-fit that some people have the nerve to question the current market validity/viability of a small section of vintage unopened that is skyrocketing. The horror. Excuse me and anyone else for using our brains and not spouting completely biased hive-mind talking points about how awesome everything is. Shocking that you and others who collect something defend your purchases tooth and nail.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Empty cases? Considering the fact that it's now been well over a year since BBCE had either a 78 or a 79 baseball wax box for sale on their site, I'd say your scenario is about as accurate as the majority of your posts. >>
If you disagree with my sentiments in this discussion, so be it. But is it necessary to be a d-bag and make personal attacks by needlessly attacking my past posts. Grow up. >>
Says the guy accusing Steve Hart, a PSA staff member, btw, of market manipulation with absolutely no basis or factual proof. >>
I'm not ACCUSING anyone of anything. I have my opinions and I am simply stating them. I have no evidence, so accusing is a HUGE leap. I'm allowed to think what I want, right. Or do I have to submit to hive-mind. As I said, grow up. >>
So off base here sports card theory...your opinion doesn't even factor.
There is a HUGE difference between expressing an opinion that the market is being manipulated, and directly blaming a specific person/company for doing it.
You have offered an opinion about the market which is certainly a valid thing to do here, but when you insinuate/accuse (yes, you did) that specific parties are acting in ways that you can't substantiate you have crossed the line.
The top posting of his board never changes. It explains the forum rules very clearly. Please review number 4 about the prohibition in making libelous remarks.
And as to your more general theory, I agree with Tim. With the demand as high as it is, the fact that there have been hardly any items available tells us all we need to know. Other than BBG's insanely priced rack cases, there hasn't been much product offed in the market at ANY price for about 24 months now. That's not called manipulation. It's called SCARCITY.
There is a HUGE difference between expressing an opinion that the market is being manipulated, and directly blaming a specific person/company for doing it.
You have offered an opinion about the market which is certainly a valid thing to do here, but when you insinuate/accuse (yes, you did) that specific parties are acting in ways that you can't substantiate you have crossed the line.
The top posting of his board never changes. It explains the forum rules very clearly. Please review number 4 about the prohibition in making libelous remarks.
And as to your more general theory, I agree with Tim. With the demand as high as it is, the fact that there have been hardly any items available tells us all we need to know. Other than BBG's insanely priced rack cases, there hasn't been much product offed in the market at ANY price for about 24 months now. That's not called manipulation. It's called SCARCITY. >>
lol Oh come on. "Libelous remarks"? You are out of your mind. You could NEVER prove that a public questioning of possible market manipulation could harm their business, so there goes that notion. You guys have reached comedic levels here. I literally laughed out loud when you said "libelous remarks".
When someone makes you feel sad, respond with legal terms to try and scare them. Nice try, but it won't work with me. I know what I said and I in NO WAY made any accusations of illegal activity. You fail.
You really should learn the meaning of terms before you make yourself look even more ridiculous than you already have.
Libel is a written form of defamation or representation about a party that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone is involved in illegal activity.
In this threadbyoubhave made insinuations/accusations that BBCE is manipulating the market. Unless you have a basis that can reasonably Tie them to ha kind of activity (and limited availability or price increase by themselves would not be sufficient) then you have libelous dragged them through the mud.
The moderator's thread about the rules here are quite clear. If you want to post that you think the market is manipulated you are not violating the rules. If you post that a specific party is manipulating the market and have a reasonable basis for making that assertion (i.e. more than just your opinion) then you are not violating he rules. But what you have done is drag BBCE through the mud just because you think so. Sorry to break it to you SCT, but you violated the rules.
Unless, of course, you have something more than "just what you think" to implicate BBCE in the activities you suspect.
Don't you just love his unending devotion to the belief that there is this unlimited supply of vintage unopened product still in existence - sportscardtheory joins in on the long line of those who keep trumpeting the idea that "it's there, you just can't see it...really guys, I just know it is". "I'll never be able to prove it, and I could never tell you where it is or who has it, but I'm just gonna keep saying it". Translation = "I sure wish I had been in on this when the time was right, but since I wasn't, I'm gonna deny its rarity". “Oh, and while I’m at it, I’ll make blatant accusations (in writing BTW) about something nefarious going on, only to come back with that’s not what I said”.
SCT, you haven’t made anyone feel sad – in fact, with each new message you post, it’s kinda fun watching you dig yourself in deeper and deeper and making it even more apparent how shallow both your opinions and knowledge really are. Please, keep 'em coming.
<< <i>You really should learn the meaning of terms before you make yourself look even more ridiculous than you already have.
Libel is a written form of defamation or representation about a party that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression. It has nothing to do with whether or not someone is involved in illegal activity.
In this threadbyoubhave made insinuations/accusations that BBCE is manipulating the market. Unless you have a basis that can reasonably Tie them to ha kind of activity (and limited availability or price increase by themselves would not be sufficient) then you have libelous dragged them through the mud.
The moderator's thread about the rules here are quite clear. If you want to post that you think the market is manipulated you are not violating the rules. If you post that a specific party is manipulating the market and have a reasonable basis for making that assertion (i.e. more than just your opinion) then you are not violating he rules. But what you have done is drag BBCE through the mud just because you think so. Sorry to break it to you SCT, but you violated the rules.
Unless, of course, you have something more than "just what you think" to implicate BBCE in the activities you suspect. >>
lol I said that as the biggest seller of vintage unopened, they set the pricing. How that is "libelous" is beyond me. What are you, trying to get me kicked off the board, because that would be pretty pathetic on your part. This is simply a discussion about a very volatile section of the hobby and BBCE is involved in it all the way. Of course they will be brought into the conversation. You are grasping at straws and taking this WAY too seriously bringing "libel" into it. Give me a break.
<< <i>Don't you just love his unending devotion to the belief that there is this unlimited supply of vintage unopened product still in existence - sportscardtheory joins in on the long line of those who keep trumpeting the idea that "it's there, you just can't see it...really guys, I just know it is". "I'll never be able to prove it, and I could never tell you where it is or who has it, but I'm just gonna keep saying it". Translation = "I sure wish I had been in on this when the time was right, but since I wasn't, I'm gonna deny its rarity". “Oh, and while I’m at it, I’ll make blatant accusations (in writing BTW) about something nefarious going on, only to come back with that’s not what I said”.
SCT, you haven’t made anyone feel sad – in fact, with each new message you post, it’s kinda fun watching you dig yourself in deeper and deeper and making it even more apparent how shallow both your opinions and knowledge really are. Please, keep 'em coming. >>
+1
The only things SCT has cornered the market on are hubris and chutzpah!
<< <i>Don't you just love his unending devotion to the belief that there is this unlimited supply of vintage unopened product still in existence - sportscardtheory joins in on the long line of those who keep trumpeting the idea that "it's there, you just can't see it...really guys, I just know it is". "I'll never be able to prove it, and I could never tell you where it is or who has it, but I'm just gonna keep saying it". Translation = "I sure wish I had been in on this when the time was right, but since I wasn't, I'm gonna deny its rarity". “Oh, and while I’m at it, I’ll make blatant accusations (in writing BTW) about something nefarious going on, only to come back with that’s not what I said”.
SCT, you haven’t made anyone feel sad – in fact, with each new message you post, it’s kinda fun watching you dig yourself in deeper and deeper and making it even more apparent how shallow both your opinions and knowledge really are. Please, keep 'em coming. >>
+1
The only things SCT has cornered the market on are hubris and chutzpah! >>
At least I'm not being so petty and insecure as to attempt to get another member banned from the boards for speaking their opinions on the subject at hand. Who does that? Oh yeah... you.
The funny thing is that if SCT had instead made his comments about another well-known vendor who advertises a whole bunch of vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud.
<< <i>The funny thing is that if SCT had instead made his comments about another well-known vendor who advertises a whole bunch of vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud. >>
BINGO! Especially since 1 claims to have warehouses full of this and 1 gets a random box or 2 every so often
<< <i>Don't you just love his unending devotion to the belief that there is this unlimited supply of vintage unopened product still in existence - sportscardtheory joins in on the long line of those who keep trumpeting the idea that "it's there, you just can't see it...really guys, I just know it is". "I'll never be able to prove it, and I could never tell you where it is or who has it, but I'm just gonna keep saying it". Translation = "I sure wish I had been in on this when the time was right, but since I wasn't, I'm gonna deny its rarity". “Oh, and while I’m at it, I’ll make blatant accusations (in writing BTW) about something nefarious going on, only to come back with that’s not what I said”.
SCT, you haven’t made anyone feel sad – in fact, with each new message you post, it’s kinda fun watching you dig yourself in deeper and deeper and making it even more apparent how shallow both your opinions and knowledge really are. Please, keep 'em coming. >>
+1
The only things SCT has cornered the market on are hubris and chutzpah! >>
At least I'm not being so petty and insecure as to attempt to get another member banned from the boards for speaking their opinions on the subject at hand. Who does that? Oh yeah... you. >>
You know what they say about when you ASSUME......
I have not tried to get you banned. I have not contacted the moderator. I am merely pointing out that you crossed the line between stating an opinion and violating the posted rules.
And I doubt that the majority of members here consider it either petty or insecure that I am calling you out for talking smack about someone who you are making baseless accusations about. Now just who is the petty and insecure one.
<< <i>The funny thing is that if SCT had instead made his comments about another well-known vendor who advertises a whole bunch of vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud. >>
Yeah, it's hilarious, isn't it. You see what you want to see. The reason they aren't brought up is because they are an out-of-touch laughing stock in this hobby. The company being discussed here has all the power to directly affect current pricing. If you deny that, you are a liar. There are premiums paid for vintage unopened with their "stamp of approval" for crying out loud. I personally love BBCE and buy from them all the time. I'm also not oblivious to the fact that they have the power to directly affect market pricing on items they sell due to their direct influence on said market. I hope that they wouldn't take advantage of the situation, but there is no way to prove or disprove anything. Bringing it up isn't libel and it isn't damaging anyone's reputation.
<< <i>Since this thread is called "Unopened Prices", anyone venture to guess what a 1970 Topps Baseball High Number Wax Box would fetch in this market?
In 2011, you could have it for $7500. With a discount, since no one wanted it. >>
One sold in the REA spring auction in 2013 for just over $10k but I am told that the limit bid was substantially higher.
In today's market I think that box is legitimately worth $12k-$13k, but I know of at least 3 individuals who would go as high as $20k if it American down to a bidding war.
<< <i>$20k - that was the figure I was thinking Dave. I think today it could fetch $20K. >>
20k easy, possibly more as that box unlike the 72 ser 5/6 and the 73s hardly ever comes up for sale. (A series 5/6/7 box.)
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>The funny thing is that if SCT had instead made his comments about another well-known vendor who advertises a whole bunch of vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud. >>
Yeah, it's hilarious, isn't it. You see what you want to see. The reason they aren't brought up is because they are an out-of-touch laughing stock in this hobby. The company being discussed here has all the power to directly affect current pricing. If you deny that, you are a liar. There are premiums paid for vintage unopened with their "stamp of approval" for crying out loud. I personally love BBCE and buy from them all the time. I'm also not oblivious to the fact that they have the power to directly affect market pricing on items they sell due to their direct influence on said market. I hope that they wouldn't take advantage of the situation, but there is no way to prove or disprove anything. Bringing it up isn't libel and it isn't damaging anyone's reputation. >>
Please Stop This was a really fun, informative thread until you decided you had to ram your opinions down everyone throat. Enough.We understand your position
Interested in 60's and 70's psa and raw star and hof cards
<< <i>The funny thing is that if SCT had instead made his comments about another well-known vendor who advertises a whole bunch of vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud. >>
Yeah, it's hilarious, isn't it. You see what you want to see. The reason they aren't brought up is because they are an out-of-touch laughing stock in this hobby. The company being discussed here has all the power to directly affect current pricing. If you deny that, you are a liar. There are premiums paid for vintage unopened with their "stamp of approval" for crying out loud. I personally love BBCE and buy from them all the time. I'm also not oblivious to the fact that they have the power to directly affect market pricing on items they sell due to their direct influence on said market. I hope that they wouldn't take advantage of the situation, but there is no way to prove or disprove anything. Bringing it up isn't libel and it isn't damaging anyone's reputation. >>
Wow, yet another brilliant observation by SCT…Steve and company provides a service (a much needed one in this hobby) that creates a level of comfort for buyers when plopping down their hard earned dollars to purchase an item. Mind you, he sells his stuff for less than it gets sold for by the next guy, yet he is somehow “blamed” for the rising price of unopened. Darn you Steve, will you please do away with that silly shrink wrap…you know what you’re doing – it’s not fair of you to drive prices up like that.
Comments
"Earnings for the last quarter were decent but there are signs the hot art market may be cooling. Nearly 1/3 of the works in an auction of impressionist and modern works last night went unsold. The auction brought in a relatively disappointing $219 million."
That being said, I am a unopened bull and still think there is a little more room to run for the late 1970's and early 1980's product. They have become a store of value in the hobby.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Big difference. The stock market run-up was being fueled by a lot of people with limited understanding of what the market was all about. For the ML group break I can assure you that quite a bit of experience and knowledge is the underpinning of all our efforts. >>
No doubt.
But you know what is fascinating? Who's going to make out best this month? The whale, the "smart money", the man who has, by all appearances, done ridiculously, outlandishly well for himself. He is selling the top and going into gold! >>
+1, this is a great time for profit taking for those with the foresight to stash a significant amount. Essentially giving a blank check to those with experience and knowledge sets off alarm bells in my head. I wish those who are participating the best, but have chosen to sit on the sidelines. >>
If trying to be a bit creative to get a chance to participate to as many as possible versus doing nothing and just watching the bigger fish go after
the prize sets of your 'alarm bells' then you might want to get some professional help for that kind of insecurity.
The track record of those of us who are trying to make something happen here is pretty solid amongst this community. We are far from perfect, but I sincerely doubt that you can find anyone who could provide any sort of legitimate evidence that would undermine any of us in terms of being credible and completely honest.
In fact, the whole basis of getting multiple people to work through the bid determination was to insure that there would NOT be a blank check mentality.
In the end I am quite confident that our efforts were nothing less than the best effort that could be made to be both competitive and realistic. If you want to constructively criticize any aspect of the effort we are making I would be pleased to see it raised publicly for discussion and consideration. But to simply introduce baseless negativity is doing a disservice to everyone.
Dave
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Big difference. The stock market run-up was being fueled by a lot of people with limited understanding of what the market was all about. For the ML group break I can assure you that quite a bit of experience and knowledge is the underpinning of all our efforts. >>
No doubt.
But you know what is fascinating? Who's going to make out best this month? The whale, the "smart money", the man who has, by all appearances, done ridiculously, outlandishly well for himself. He is selling the top and going into gold! >>
+1, this is a great time for profit taking for those with the foresight to stash a significant amount. Essentially giving a blank check to those with experience and knowledge sets off alarm bells in my head. I wish those who are participating the best, but have chosen to sit on the sidelines. >>
If trying to be a bit creative to get a chance to participate to as many as possible versus doing nothing and just watching the bigger fish go after
the prize sets of your 'alarm bells' then you might want to get some professional help for that kind of insecurity.
The track record of those of us who are trying to make something happen here is pretty solid amongst this community. We are far from perfect, but I sincerely doubt that you can find anyone who could provide any sort of legitimate evidence that would undermine any of us in terms of being credible and completely honest.
In fact, the whole basis of getting multiple people to work through the bid determination was to insure that there would NOT be a blank check mentality.
In the end I am quite confident that our efforts were nothing less than the best effort that could be made to be both competitive and realistic. If you want to constructively criticize any aspect of the effort we are making I would be pleased to see it raised publicly for discussion and consideration. But to simply introduce baseless negativity is doing a disservice to everyone. >>
The people involved from the board going after this unopened has nothing to do with it and I in no way intended to impugn any of their reputations. It's the pre-bubble mentality, including the large influx of 'investors' and straying significantly from the probable value of the contents, that sets off alarm bells. You can say it's not a 'blank check', but no one outside of the small group knows what they're potentially paying. This is not the way I personally collect or invest, but to each their own. Perhaps reading my prior post (following the wine analogy) would have given some context.
Brian
Probably most fascinating to me is why price-related threads here have been almost exclusively on unopened product. I don't follow graded card prices that closely, but have noticed a substantial upswing in high-grade/low population cards from the 1970s: Schmidt, Brett, Yount, Dawson, Eck, Molitor, Murray, Ozzie, and Henderson RCs, to name a few. And this is without the benefit of an ever-declining supply.
<< <i>Given that the substantial majority (value-wise) of my baseball collection has been in 1970s unopened since I got started collecting again a few years ago, these threads are always fascinating. I don't know where prices will head, but barring a macroeconomic shock, I don't foresee any substantial value decline for pre-1980, pre-1978 at worst. There isn't enough supply to cause a significant imbalance. 1981-on is much more susceptible, but 1982-83 wax, for example, is selling for only marginally more than it did 15 years ago.
Probably most fascinating to me is why price-related threads here have been almost exclusively on unopened product. I don't follow graded card prices that closely, but have noticed a substantial upswing in high-grade/low population cards from the 1970s: Schmidt, Brett, Yount, Dawson, Eck, Molitor, Murray, Ozzie, and Henderson RCs, to name a few. And this is without the benefit of an ever-declining supply. >>
Wow...you said that perfectly!!! Every time I read one of the hundreds of posts stating that the unopened material is way "overpriced", I can't help but wonder why these same posters aren't talking about "overpriced" individual cards....maybe they think they are overpriced too but just don't mention it?? Or, maybe they don't think the rising prices on individual cards is as alarming. I see a far more logical argument/basis supporting the rising prices of unopened material than I do trying to explain the rising prices of the individual cards.
Unopened material = guaranteed less of it today than tomorrow
High grade individual cards = virtually guaranteed to RISE in population
Additionally, the pool of "players" in the individual card market would seemingly have to grow for the pricing to grow, whereas the pool of "players" in the unopened market could actually stay the same or even shrink and the pricing would rise.
<< <i>I would say that the current state of the unopened vintage market is more of a Ponzi scheme than a bubble market. Unopened is meant to be opened and most of it will end up being opened at SOME point, leaving the person who opened it holding the bag (of prime value), since opening it will lose money 90% of the time.
Example;
Person A buys 1980 Topps baseball box for $1,000, sells to B for $1,200, who sells to C for $1,500 who sells to D for $1,700 who opens it and now has $50 worth of baseball cards, etc... >>
This reminds me of when the new product comes out with a high buy per box prices say $70. Even if you pull a $70 card what dealer will offer you more than 40%. $30 return on a $70 purchase. But if you are truly just a collector and the "hits" don't really matter, it won't matter to such a person. However a "hit"/insert can at least susidize the box purchase, where the base cards value won't accomplish this. In the case of older product obviously you must nail a star card or a highly graded specimen as the product is devoid of the "hit"/insert edge to ease the pain of the inital buyin. I am avoiding any entry into the older product purchase, but I wish nothing but success for those that are into the chase.
simplify and we'll all feel better.
the outrageous money being paid for boxes, etc. has little to do with the contents inside. rich folks are not paying sick money to enjoy the privilege of fishing out $10 PSA 9 commons.
the sealed, authenticated, UNOPENED product is intended to be the show. what's inside is just part of the overall expectation that it is pristine, untouched, untampered and brand freeking new.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>you're overthinking this . and i'm getting a headache.
simplify and we'll all feel better.
the outrageous money being paid for boxes, etc. has little to do with the contents inside. rich folks are not paying sick money to enjoy the privilege of fishing out $10 PSA 9 commons.
the sealed, authenticated, UNOPENED product is intended to be the show. what's inside is just part of the overall expectation that it is pristine, untouched, untampered and brand freeking new. >>
Everyone, I think, knows that. That's not the point. No one is questioning the validity of the value of vintage unopened in general. The issue is that some believe certain eras (late '70s to early '80s) of unopened are skyrocketing at the moment and are wondering why when the lack of supply seems to be only perceived, and controlled, to an extent, by one company with a vested interest.
<< <i>Itzagoner's got it figured out. >>
+1
I stopped reading this thread in detail and just skim it. Much too confusing for me. I don't get the point either and why people care so much.
aconte
<< <i>Everyone, I think, knows that. >>
if you read the post directly above mine, then i'm not sure that i'd agree with you.
"skyrocketing" has been as much a part of our hobby or business for as long as it's been part of any discussion. this shouldn't come as such a huge surprise if you've studied your history.
start with '89 Upper Deck Baseball and work from there. some things people just gotta have. there doesn't need to be a logical explanation attached to it.
<< <i>
<< <i>you're overthinking this . and i'm getting a headache.
simplify and we'll all feel better.
the outrageous money being paid for boxes, etc. has little to do with the contents inside. rich folks are not paying sick money to enjoy the privilege of fishing out $10 PSA 9 commons.
the sealed, authenticated, UNOPENED product is intended to be the show. what's inside is just part of the overall expectation that it is pristine, untouched, untampered and brand freeking new. >>
Everyone, I think, knows that. That's not the point. No one is questioning the validity of the value of vintage unopened in general. The issue is that some believe certain eras (late '70s to early '80s) of unopened are skyrocketing at the moment and are wondering why when the lack of supply seems to be only perceived, and controlled, to an extent, by one company with a vested interest. >>
LOL, yes, I can see them now--Steve and Reed standing before full pallets of 78-80 unopened cases rubbing their palms together and laughing maniacally.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>you're overthinking this . and i'm getting a headache.
simplify and we'll all feel better.
the outrageous money being paid for boxes, etc. has little to do with the contents inside. rich folks are not paying sick money to enjoy the privilege of fishing out $10 PSA 9 commons.
the sealed, authenticated, UNOPENED product is intended to be the show. what's inside is just part of the overall expectation that it is pristine, untouched, untampered and brand freeking new. >>
Everyone, I think, knows that. That's not the point. No one is questioning the validity of the value of vintage unopened in general. The issue is that some believe certain eras (late '70s to early '80s) of unopened are skyrocketing at the moment and are wondering why when the lack of supply seems to be only perceived, and controlled, to an extent, by one company with a vested interest. >>
LOL, yes, I can see them now--Steve and Reed standing before full pallets of 78-80 unopened cases rubbing their palms together and laughing maniacally. >>
LOL, yes, I can see them now--Steve and Reed standing before empty pallets of 78-80 unopened cases rubbing their palms together and laughing maniacally because they just sold them at a 200% profit and have more on the way.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Empty cases? Considering the fact that it's now been well over a year since BBCE had either a 78 or a 79 baseball wax box for sale on their site, I'd say your scenario is about as accurate as the majority of your posts. >>
"...on their site..." If you disagree with my sentiments in this discussion, so be it. But is it necessary to be a d-bag and make personal attacks by needlessly attacking my past posts. Grow up.
<< <i>
<< <i>Empty cases? Considering the fact that it's now been well over a year since BBCE had either a 78 or a 79 baseball wax box for sale on their site, I'd say your scenario is about as accurate as the majority of your posts. >>
If you disagree with my sentiments in this discussion, so be it. But is it necessary to be a d-bag and make personal attacks by needlessly attacking my past posts. Grow up. >>
Says the guy accusing Steve Hart, a PSA staff member, btw, of market manipulation with absolutely no basis or factual proof.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>Says
<< <i>
<< <i>Empty cases? Considering the fact that it's now been well over a year since BBCE had either a 78 or a 79 baseball wax box for sale on their site, I'd say your scenario is about as accurate as the majority of your posts. >>
If you disagree with my sentiments in this discussion, so be it. But is it necessary to be a d-bag and make personal attacks by needlessly attacking my past posts. Grow up. >>
Says the guy accusing Steve Hart, a PSA staff member, btw, of market manipulation with absolutely no basis or factual proof. >>
I'm not ACCUSING anyone of anything. I have my opinions and I am simply stating them. I have no evidence, so accusing is a HUGE leap. I'm allowed to think what I want, right. Or do I have to submit to hive-mind. As I said, grow up.
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>Says
<< <i>
<< <i>Empty cases? Considering the fact that it's now been well over a year since BBCE had either a 78 or a 79 baseball wax box for sale on their site, I'd say your scenario is about as accurate as the majority of your posts. >>
If you disagree with my sentiments in this discussion, so be it. But is it necessary to be a d-bag and make personal attacks by needlessly attacking my past posts. Grow up. >>
Says the guy accusing Steve Hart, a PSA staff member, btw, of market manipulation with absolutely no basis or factual proof. >>
I'm not ACCUSING anyone of anything. I have my opinions and I am simply stating them. I have no evidence, so accusing is a HUGE leap. I'm allowed to think what I want, right. Or do I have to submit to hive-mind. As I said, grow up. >>
So off base here sports card theory...your opinion doesn't even factor.
There is a HUGE difference between expressing an opinion that the market is being manipulated, and directly blaming a specific person/company for doing it.
You have offered an opinion about the market which is certainly a valid thing to do here, but when you insinuate/accuse (yes, you did) that specific parties are acting in ways that you can't substantiate you have crossed the line.
The top posting of his board never changes. It explains the forum rules very clearly. Please review number 4 about the prohibition in making libelous remarks.
And as to your more general theory, I agree with Tim. With the demand as high as it is, the fact that there have been hardly any items available tells us all we need to know. Other than BBG's insanely priced rack cases, there hasn't been much product offed in the market at ANY price for about 24 months now. That's not called manipulation. It's called SCARCITY.
Dave
<< <i>Sportscardtheory
There is a HUGE difference between expressing an opinion that the market is being manipulated, and directly blaming a specific person/company for doing it.
You have offered an opinion about the market which is certainly a valid thing to do here, but when you insinuate/accuse (yes, you did) that specific parties are acting in ways that you can't substantiate you have crossed the line.
The top posting of his board never changes. It explains the forum rules very clearly. Please review number 4 about the prohibition in making libelous remarks.
And as to your more general theory, I agree with Tim. With the demand as high as it is, the fact that there have been hardly any items available tells us all we need to know. Other than BBG's insanely priced rack cases, there hasn't been much product offed in the market at ANY price for about 24 months now. That's not called manipulation. It's called SCARCITY. >>
lol Oh come on. "Libelous remarks"? You are out of your mind. You could NEVER prove that a public questioning of possible market manipulation could harm their business, so there goes that notion. You guys have reached comedic levels here. I literally laughed out loud when you said "libelous remarks".
Libel is a written form of defamation or representation about a party that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression. It has nothing to
do with whether or not someone is involved in illegal activity.
In this threadbyoubhave made insinuations/accusations that BBCE is manipulating the market. Unless you have a basis that can reasonably
Tie them to ha kind of activity (and limited availability or price increase by themselves would not be sufficient) then you have libelous dragged them through the mud.
The moderator's thread about the rules here are quite clear. If you want to post that you think the market is manipulated you are not violating the rules. If you post that a specific party is manipulating the market and have a reasonable basis for making that assertion (i.e. more than just your opinion) then you are not violating he rules. But what you have done is drag BBCE through the mud just because you think so. Sorry to break it to you SCT, but you violated the rules.
Unless, of course, you have something more than "just what you think" to implicate BBCE in the activities you suspect.
Dave
SCT, you haven’t made anyone feel sad – in fact, with each new message you post, it’s kinda fun watching you dig yourself in deeper and deeper and making it even more apparent how shallow both your opinions and knowledge really are. Please, keep 'em coming.
<< <i>You really should learn the meaning of terms before you make yourself look even more ridiculous than you already have.
Libel is a written form of defamation or representation about a party that conveys an unjustly unfavorable impression. It has nothing to
do with whether or not someone is involved in illegal activity.
In this threadbyoubhave made insinuations/accusations that BBCE is manipulating the market. Unless you have a basis that can reasonably
Tie them to ha kind of activity (and limited availability or price increase by themselves would not be sufficient) then you have libelous dragged them through the mud.
The moderator's thread about the rules here are quite clear. If you want to post that you think the market is manipulated you are not violating the rules. If you post that a specific party is manipulating the market and have a reasonable basis for making that assertion (i.e. more than just your opinion) then you are not violating he rules. But what you have done is drag BBCE through the mud just because you think so. Sorry to break it to you SCT, but you violated the rules.
Unless, of course, you have something more than "just what you think" to implicate BBCE in the activities you suspect. >>
lol I said that as the biggest seller of vintage unopened, they set the pricing. How that is "libelous" is beyond me. What are you, trying to get me kicked off the board, because that would be pretty pathetic on your part. This is simply a discussion about a very volatile section of the hobby and BBCE is involved in it all the way. Of course they will be brought into the conversation. You are grasping at straws and taking this WAY too seriously bringing "libel" into it. Give me a break.
<< <i>Don't you just love his unending devotion to the belief that there is this unlimited supply of vintage unopened product still in existence - sportscardtheory joins in on the long line of those who keep trumpeting the idea that "it's there, you just can't see it...really guys, I just know it is". "I'll never be able to prove it, and I could never tell you where it is or who has it, but I'm just gonna keep saying it". Translation = "I sure wish I had been in on this when the time was right, but since I wasn't, I'm gonna deny its rarity". “Oh, and while I’m at it, I’ll make blatant accusations (in writing BTW) about something nefarious going on, only to come back with that’s not what I said”.
SCT, you haven’t made anyone feel sad – in fact, with each new message you post, it’s kinda fun watching you dig yourself in deeper and deeper and making it even more apparent how shallow both your opinions and knowledge really are. Please, keep 'em coming. >>
+1
The only things SCT has cornered the market on are hubris and chutzpah!
Dave
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't you just love his unending devotion to the belief that there is this unlimited supply of vintage unopened product still in existence - sportscardtheory joins in on the long line of those who keep trumpeting the idea that "it's there, you just can't see it...really guys, I just know it is". "I'll never be able to prove it, and I could never tell you where it is or who has it, but I'm just gonna keep saying it". Translation = "I sure wish I had been in on this when the time was right, but since I wasn't, I'm gonna deny its rarity". “Oh, and while I’m at it, I’ll make blatant accusations (in writing BTW) about something nefarious going on, only to come back with that’s not what I said”.
SCT, you haven’t made anyone feel sad – in fact, with each new message you post, it’s kinda fun watching you dig yourself in deeper and deeper and making it even more apparent how shallow both your opinions and knowledge really are. Please, keep 'em coming. >>
+1
The only things SCT has cornered the market on are hubris and chutzpah! >>
At least I'm not being so petty and insecure as to attempt to get another member banned from the boards for speaking their opinions on the subject at hand. Who does that? Oh yeah... you.
vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud.
Dave
<< <i>The funny thing is that if SCT had instead made his comments about another well-known vendor who advertises a whole bunch of
vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud. >>
BINGO! Especially since 1 claims to have warehouses full of this and 1 gets a random box or 2 every so often
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Don't you just love his unending devotion to the belief that there is this unlimited supply of vintage unopened product still in existence - sportscardtheory joins in on the long line of those who keep trumpeting the idea that "it's there, you just can't see it...really guys, I just know it is". "I'll never be able to prove it, and I could never tell you where it is or who has it, but I'm just gonna keep saying it". Translation = "I sure wish I had been in on this when the time was right, but since I wasn't, I'm gonna deny its rarity". “Oh, and while I’m at it, I’ll make blatant accusations (in writing BTW) about something nefarious going on, only to come back with that’s not what I said”.
SCT, you haven’t made anyone feel sad – in fact, with each new message you post, it’s kinda fun watching you dig yourself in deeper and deeper and making it even more apparent how shallow both your opinions and knowledge really are. Please, keep 'em coming. >>
+1
The only things SCT has cornered the market on are hubris and chutzpah! >>
At least I'm not being so petty and insecure as to attempt to get another member banned from the boards for speaking their opinions on the subject at hand. Who does that? Oh yeah... you. >>
You know what they say about when you ASSUME......
I have not tried to get you banned. I have not contacted the moderator. I am merely pointing out that you crossed the line between stating an opinion and violating the posted rules.
And I doubt that the majority of members here consider it either petty or insecure that I am calling you out for talking smack about someone who you are making baseless accusations about. Now just who is the petty and insecure one.
Nuff said
Dave
In 2011, you could have it for $7500. With a discount, since no one wanted it.
<< <i>The funny thing is that if SCT had instead made his comments about another well-known vendor who advertises a whole bunch of
vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud. >>
Yeah, it's hilarious, isn't it. You see what you want to see. The reason they aren't brought up is because they are an out-of-touch laughing stock in this hobby. The company being discussed here has all the power to directly affect current pricing. If you deny that, you are a liar. There are premiums paid for vintage unopened with their "stamp of approval" for crying out loud. I personally love BBCE and buy from them all the time. I'm also not oblivious to the fact that they have the power to directly affect market pricing on items they sell due to their direct influence on said market. I hope that they wouldn't take advantage of the situation, but there is no way to prove or disprove anything. Bringing it up isn't libel and it isn't damaging anyone's reputation.
<< <i>Since this thread is called "Unopened Prices", anyone venture to guess what a 1970 Topps Baseball High Number Wax Box would fetch in this market?
In 2011, you could have it for $7500. With a discount, since no one wanted it. >>
One sold in the REA spring auction in 2013 for just over $10k but I am told that the limit bid was substantially higher.
In today's market I think that box is legitimately worth $12k-$13k, but I know of at least 3 individuals who would go as high as
$20k if it American down to a bidding war.
Dave
<< <i>$20k - that was the figure I was thinking Dave. I think today it could fetch $20K. >>
20k easy, possibly more as that box unlike the 72 ser 5/6 and the 73s hardly ever comes up for sale. (A series 5/6/7 box.)
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>
<< <i>The funny thing is that if SCT had instead made his comments about another well-known vendor who advertises a whole bunch of
vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud. >>
Yeah, it's hilarious, isn't it. You see what you want to see. The reason they aren't brought up is because they are an out-of-touch laughing stock in this hobby. The company being discussed here has all the power to directly affect current pricing. If you deny that, you are a liar. There are premiums paid for vintage unopened with their "stamp of approval" for crying out loud. I personally love BBCE and buy from them all the time. I'm also not oblivious to the fact that they have the power to directly affect market pricing on items they sell due to their direct influence on said market. I hope that they wouldn't take advantage of the situation, but there is no way to prove or disprove anything. Bringing it up isn't libel and it isn't damaging anyone's reputation. >>
Please Stop
This was a really fun, informative thread until you decided you had to ram your opinions down everyone throat. Enough.We understand your position
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<< <i>The funny thing is that if SCT had instead made his comments about another well-known vendor who advertises a whole bunch of
vintage unopened product in their published catalog, but when you call they with claim that they have sold out or that the price is no longer valid he would actually have facts that support the assertion (especially since the unnamed vendor continues to advertise the same product that they supposedly ran out of in later editions of their catalog, and at the same previously published prices that they said were no longer valid when you called).
Instead he is trying to drag what may be the vendor with the highest ethics in the business through the mud. >>
Yeah, it's hilarious, isn't it. You see what you want to see. The reason they aren't brought up is because they are an out-of-touch laughing stock in this hobby. The company being discussed here has all the power to directly affect current pricing. If you deny that, you are a liar. There are premiums paid for vintage unopened with their "stamp of approval" for crying out loud. I personally love BBCE and buy from them all the time. I'm also not oblivious to the fact that they have the power to directly affect market pricing on items they sell due to their direct influence on said market. I hope that they wouldn't take advantage of the situation, but there is no way to prove or disprove anything. Bringing it up isn't libel and it isn't damaging anyone's reputation. >>
Wow, yet another brilliant observation by SCT…Steve and company provides a service (a much needed one in this hobby) that creates a level of comfort for buyers when plopping down their hard earned dollars to purchase an item. Mind you, he sells his stuff for less than it gets sold for by the next guy, yet he is somehow “blamed” for the rising price of unopened. Darn you Steve, will you please do away with that silly shrink wrap…you know what you’re doing – it’s not fair of you to drive prices up like that.
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