It's all four.
It's money to those who buy with it.
It's an investment to those who profit from it.
It's a gold replacement for those looking to protect their savings.
It's a scam for those who end up with less than they started with.
It's track record shows it goes up much more than it goes down. Aside from the fact that people are losing faith in holding dollars, this is why it remains popular.
If my math is correct, looking at the bitcoin 24 hr price graph, tesla's 1.5 billion purchase is now 1.7 billion.
$200 million return in less than a day! Not bad Elon not bad!
It did what I figured it would do. I missed the boat twice before but not this time. All the top Altcoins are near 10X. Good thing I hung on to a chunky stack of ETH made with my home-built miners. I've fired up everything I have making ETH and it's keeping the house warm. Haven't fired up the heater yet and it's making nearly $50/day.
I dabbled in the Bitcoin surge in 2018. I bought and sold some if BTC's little brothers as well, and was fascinated by the novelty and putative potential of cryptocurrencies.
Since then, I've assessed that they are mostly about volatility, more or less like a bunch of other commodities and assets that have become the refuges of all this fiat cash that's sloshing around the universe now.
To that extent, I'm not sure why anyone would feel more secure about owning cryptocurrency (which has a floor of only owner confidence to sustain it, i.e., zero) than stocks (there's actually a company there), cash (there's actually a government there, at least for now), or PMs (there's actually a metal there that's valued enough for the Lizard People to manipulate).
Any of you noob FOMO hodlers have silver commemorative crypto rounds? I bought a tube of BTC and another of ETH, and I'm not exactly sure why or what to do with them all. Too bad they're not nearly as valuable as those from the Shiba Inu Mint.
The bitcoin fork coins (BCH, BSV, LTC, etc.) are all moving up big today and over the last week. Not sure why. But if bitcoin is worth something, the forks should be worth close to something (i.e, they pretty much all are improvements over bitcoin, they just don't have the name recognition).
Every top alt is flying high. Most are at 10x+. I just scraped a little ETH off the table because the bullion place takes it and it's a faster cheaper transaction than BTC. I'm heavy on Cardano, Stellarlumens and Tron. Each was about that same price. Looks like I hit two out of three.
I would love to know what percentage of stimulus goes directly into cryptocurrency and "growth" stocks. Probably almost as much as goes to casino and ATF. Glad I have a little.
Food for thought, 1 btc(57k) equivalent to about 1 kilo gold currently(57k+). Progress/Innovation/Evolution/etc. is always ongoing and never smooth. so much misinformation out there, interesting watching institutions coming in. Weak hands got pruned lately(42 to 28), strong hands still acquiring, am hodling still myself for now.
As more and more corporations convert their cash reserves into bitcoin (as has Tesla and Square) these "whales" will create greater demand on a fixed supply. Appears that Microstrategy saw a dip today that was worth a $1B investment.
Microstrategy, Square, and Tesla all have something in common.....None of them have significant real earnings from their main lines of business. The story might be more convincing if profitable businesses were buying, though it might be too late by the time Berkshire Hathaway announces its position.
As more and more corporations determine that converting their cash reserves into bitcoin (as has Tesla and Square) these "whales" will create greater demand on a fixed supply. Appears that Microstrategy saw a dip today that was worth a $1B investment.
The referenced article fails to mention that Microstrategy issued $1 billion in convertible convertible debt to buy $1 billion in bitcoin. They did something similar a few months ago also.
What is the game of issuing debt to buy an "asset"?
What is the game of issuing debt to buy an "asset"?
Debt is cheap. Purchasing the right assets with it can be very profitable. They would not be repeating their previous purchase with debt if it had not been profitable the first time they did it. Historically many corps. have chosen to buyback their own stock using cheap money. The switch to BTC vs. stock buybacks tells us that these companies expect BTC to do a lot better than holding cash and/or they expect a decline in their own stock prices. Maybe the BTC is simply a hedge against their own stock and/or the cash they do hold. As the number of these corporate bitcoin "whales" grows so will the price of the asset. Just another growing bubble that, like all others, will eventually pop. Cheap money will keep it inflated. MMT will provide the cheap money. The black swan with cryptos is going to be government regulation that destroys its profitability.
One thing is clear: Bitcoin has the attention of some very deep pockets - corporate, hedge funds and very wealthy investors. While extremely volatile it has thus far proven to be extremely profitable. The smart play is likely to be the long term hold til the music stops, disregarding when the record player needle skips.
@RobM said:
Microstrategy, Square, and Tesla all have something in common.....None of them have significant real earnings from their main lines of business. The story might be more convincing if profitable businesses were buying, though it might be too late by the time Berkshire Hathaway announces its position.
They obviously believe BTC will boost their earnings. They are convinced or they would not be buying. I'm convinced, I'm buying. If you're not convinced you should not buy.
@derryb said:
They obviously believe BTC will boost their earnings. They are convinced or they would not be buying. I'm convinced, I'm buying. If you're not convinced you should not buy.
I'm not convinced.... That's why I am SELLING. You don't have to be convinced, you only need to find a greater fool to sell to. If an individual owns just 0.25 BTC, it guarantees they are in the top 1% of all BTC hodlers. And, actually closer to the 99.9th percentile when considering whale wallets and the millions of lost coins. So to be in a position where you have taken out your principal and maybe even some profits, but still being a BTC 99 percenter is a win-win. If BTC crashes you can brag about not being convinced, and if it continues up, you can complain about your new found wealth, a win-win!
@derryb said:
I bought your BTC for the long term, thanks for the deal.
I thought you only bought at relative bottoms? My most recent BTC sale was at $54K+ while it was still on the way up. Wished I had sold a little more at $58K though. Taking profits is never a bad thing, even if it sometimes seems like it.
I caught the knife taking 30% off the table. Putting me way into the 'it's all gravy from here' category. I was expecting a bigger dip, which still may happen, and I'm kind of expecting it.
As more and more corporations determine that converting their cash reserves into bitcoin (as has Tesla and Square) these "whales" will create greater demand on a fixed supply. Appears that Microstrategy saw a dip today that was worth a $1B investment.
The referenced article fails to mention that Microstrategy issued $1 billion in convertible convertible debt to buy $1 billion in bitcoin. They did something similar a few months ago also.
What is the game of issuing debt to buy an "asset"?
As more and more corporations determine that converting their cash reserves into bitcoin (as has Tesla and Square) these "whales" will create greater demand on a fixed supply. Appears that Microstrategy saw a dip today that was worth a $1B investment.
The referenced article fails to mention that Microstrategy issued $1 billion in convertible convertible debt to buy $1 billion in bitcoin. They did something similar a few months ago also.
What is the game of issuing debt to buy an "asset"?
Remember TARP ?
TARP as an asset is nothing like bitcoin as an "asset". I would liken bitcoin to goodwill.
As more and more corporations determine that converting their cash reserves into bitcoin (as has Tesla and Square) these "whales" will create greater demand on a fixed supply. Appears that Microstrategy saw a dip today that was worth a $1B investment.
The referenced article fails to mention that Microstrategy issued $1 billion in convertible convertible debt to buy $1 billion in bitcoin. They did something similar a few months ago also.
What is the game of issuing debt to buy an "asset"?
Remember TARP ?
TARP as an asset is nothing like bitcoin as an "asset". I would liken bitcoin to goodwill.
Goodwill is having hiccups today
43142.85 USD −2967.13 (−6.43%)
"Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
@chesterb said:
I'm buying. It will go up; it will go down then it goes back up again. The question is why wouldn't you want just a little in your portfolio?
From what I have read through this entire dialogue, I have come to the conclusion that the entire thing is based on the faith that eventually Bitcoin will become an totally accepted monetary unit. Some key words here being totally accepted. That means mom and pop and everyone accepts Bitcoins as a viable currency, dragging the Governments along because they have no choice.
The other key word here is Faith! Younger people seem to endorse the concept because they are more cognizant of the computer and it's uses than some of us old F*rts. The other thing that is a factor is that a lot of us older people have seen things, cycles and fads come and go, sometimes winning and sometimes losing on them , but we now have less recovery time in case of failure. To many of us, the Ethernet is something you use to catch etherbunnies!
I'm not nearly agressive in my investing as I was when in my 30's, 40's and 50's because there may not be enough time to recover from a major loss, so in the event that Bitcoin ends up being some kind of a scam, or fails altogether, maybe even from the fact that universal acceptance isn't forthcoming, I'm going to let you more agressive people build it up and win lose or draw, reap the profits, or losses, thereby incurred.
@chesterb said:
I'm buying. It will go up; it will go down then it goes back up again. The question is why wouldn't you want just a little in your portfolio?
Do you have an answer to your question?
Positive price portfolio performance for a non-correlated asset with just a minimal 1% exposure. Anyone with zero exposure is only doing a disservice to themselves regardless of their comprehension.
Gold -20 today, Nasdaq down 100+, ₿ +3k; have exposure to all.
KY lawmakers just approved a crypto mining tax incentive bill; in a state where 73% of the electricity production is coal-fired. Considering that Tesla does not make money selling cars (any profits come from selling energy credits), shouldn't Tesla lose energy credits to offset their ownership of bitcoin? I'm not sure this is being talked about, but environmentalists should be livid.
@chesterb said:
I'm buying. It will go up; it will go down then it goes back up again. The question is why wouldn't you want just a little in your portfolio?
Do you have an answer to your question?
Positive price portfolio performance for a non-correlated asset with just a minimal 1% exposure. Anyone with zero exposure is only doing a disservice to themselves regardless of their comprehension.
Gold -20 today, Nasdaq down 100+, ₿ +3k; have exposure to all.
So if you put in 1% and it doubles, you added 1% to your account. Thats not even statistically significant. There are better ways to add 1% while actually REDUCING risk.
I don't think the FOMO speculation is concerned with doubling one's investment. It's more about looking in the rear view mirror, seeing past huge gains, and projecting similar gains into the future. The 1% of net worth suggestion would be seen as low risk, because most hodlers are seeking the elusive 10 or 100 bagger going forward. Better chance than buying lottery tickets. Also, some don't want to get left behind if there were actually some kind of widespread adoption.
@chesterb said:
I'm buying. It will go up; it will go down then it goes back up again. The question is why wouldn't you want just a little in your portfolio?
Do you have an answer to your question?
Positive price portfolio performance for a non-correlated asset with just a minimal 1% exposure. Anyone with zero exposure is only doing a disservice to themselves regardless of their comprehension.
Gold -20 today, Nasdaq down 100+, ₿ +3k; have exposure to all.
There are better ways to add 1% while actually REDUCING risk.
@chesterb said:
I'm buying. It will go up; it will go down then it goes back up again. The question is why wouldn't you want just a little in your portfolio?
Do you have an answer to your question?
Positive price portfolio performance for a non-correlated asset with just a minimal 1% exposure. Anyone with zero exposure is only doing a disservice to themselves regardless of their comprehension.
Gold -20 today, Nasdaq down 100+, ₿ +3k; have exposure to all.
There are better ways to add 1% while actually REDUCING risk.
Comments
It's all four.
It's money to those who buy with it.
It's an investment to those who profit from it.
It's a gold replacement for those looking to protect their savings.
It's a scam for those who end up with less than they started with.
It's track record shows it goes up much more than it goes down. Aside from the fact that people are losing faith in holding dollars, this is why it remains popular.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
If my math is correct, looking at the bitcoin 24 hr price graph, tesla's 1.5 billion purchase is now 1.7 billion.
$200 million return in less than a day! Not bad Elon not bad!
Bst transactions with: dimeman, oih82w8, mercurydimeguy, dunerlaw, Lakesammman, 2ltdjorn, MattTheRiley, dpvilla, drddm, CommemKing, Relaxn, Yorkshireman, Cucamongacoin, jtlee321, greencopper, coin22lover, coinfolio, lindedad, spummybum, Leeroybrown, flackthat, BryceM, Surfinxhi, VanHalen, astrorat, robkool, Wingsrule, PennyGuy, al410, Ilikecolor, Southcounty, Namvet69, Commemdude, oreville, Leebone
It is crazy that Doge, created as a joke meme (not even as serious as the pets.com sock puppet) now has a higher market cap than Petco!
It did what I figured it would do. I missed the boat twice before but not this time. All the top Altcoins are near 10X. Good thing I hung on to a chunky stack of ETH made with my home-built miners. I've fired up everything I have making ETH and it's keeping the house warm. Haven't fired up the heater yet and it's making nearly $50/day.
Any advice on a crypto wallet?
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I use Jaxx and Atomic for storage and Metamask for simple browser-based transactions.
Thanks for the advice @66Tbird
Successful transactions with : MICHAELDIXON, Manorcourtman, Bochiman, bolivarshagnasty, AUandAG, onlyroosies, chumley, Weiss, jdimmick, BAJJERFAN, gene1978, TJM965, Smittys, GRANDAM, JTHawaii, mainejoe, softparade, derryb
Bad transactions with : nobody to date
I dabbled in the Bitcoin surge in 2018. I bought and sold some if BTC's little brothers as well, and was fascinated by the novelty and putative potential of cryptocurrencies.
Since then, I've assessed that they are mostly about volatility, more or less like a bunch of other commodities and assets that have become the refuges of all this fiat cash that's sloshing around the universe now.
To that extent, I'm not sure why anyone would feel more secure about owning cryptocurrency (which has a floor of only owner confidence to sustain it, i.e., zero) than stocks (there's actually a company there), cash (there's actually a government there, at least for now), or PMs (there's actually a metal there that's valued enough for the Lizard People to manipulate).
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Any of you noob FOMO hodlers have silver commemorative crypto rounds? I bought a tube of BTC and another of ETH, and I'm not exactly sure why or what to do with them all. Too bad they're not nearly as valuable as those from the Shiba Inu Mint.
Everyone is happy as long as it goes up. Me too.
Successful BST deals with mustangt and jesbroken. Now EVERYTHING is for sale.
The bitcoin fork coins (BCH, BSV, LTC, etc.) are all moving up big today and over the last week. Not sure why. But if bitcoin is worth something, the forks should be worth close to something (i.e, they pretty much all are improvements over bitcoin, they just don't have the name recognition).
Every top alt is flying high. Most are at 10x+. I just scraped a little ETH off the table because the bullion place takes it and it's a faster cheaper transaction than BTC. I'm heavy on Cardano, Stellarlumens and Tron. Each was about that same price. Looks like I hit two out of three.
Look like the Bitcoin is on track again.
I would love to know what percentage of stimulus goes directly into cryptocurrency and "growth" stocks. Probably almost as much as goes to casino and ATF. Glad I have a little.
Food for thought, 1 btc(57k) equivalent to about 1 kilo gold currently(57k+). Progress/Innovation/Evolution/etc. is always ongoing and never smooth. so much misinformation out there, interesting watching institutions coming in. Weak hands got pruned lately(42 to 28), strong hands still acquiring, am hodling still myself for now.
And now it's a buy again.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Microstrategy Buys Additional $1 Billion Bitcoins
As more and more corporations convert their cash reserves into bitcoin (as has Tesla and Square) these "whales" will create greater demand on a fixed supply. Appears that Microstrategy saw a dip today that was worth a $1B investment.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Microstrategy, Square, and Tesla all have something in common.....None of them have significant real earnings from their main lines of business. The story might be more convincing if profitable businesses were buying, though it might be too late by the time Berkshire Hathaway announces its position.
The referenced article fails to mention that Microstrategy issued $1 billion in convertible convertible debt to buy $1 billion in bitcoin. They did something similar a few months ago also.
What is the game of issuing debt to buy an "asset"?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Debt is cheap. Purchasing the right assets with it can be very profitable. They would not be repeating their previous purchase with debt if it had not been profitable the first time they did it. Historically many corps. have chosen to buyback their own stock using cheap money. The switch to BTC vs. stock buybacks tells us that these companies expect BTC to do a lot better than holding cash and/or they expect a decline in their own stock prices. Maybe the BTC is simply a hedge against their own stock and/or the cash they do hold. As the number of these corporate bitcoin "whales" grows so will the price of the asset. Just another growing bubble that, like all others, will eventually pop. Cheap money will keep it inflated. MMT will provide the cheap money. The black swan with cryptos is going to be government regulation that destroys its profitability.
One thing is clear: Bitcoin has the attention of some very deep pockets - corporate, hedge funds and very wealthy investors. While extremely volatile it has thus far proven to be extremely profitable. The smart play is likely to be the long term hold til the music stops, disregarding when the record player needle skips.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
They obviously believe BTC will boost their earnings. They are convinced or they would not be buying. I'm convinced, I'm buying. If you're not convinced you should not buy.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I'm not convinced.... That's why I am SELLING. You don't have to be convinced, you only need to find a greater fool to sell to. If an individual owns just 0.25 BTC, it guarantees they are in the top 1% of all BTC hodlers. And, actually closer to the 99.9th percentile when considering whale wallets and the millions of lost coins. So to be in a position where you have taken out your principal and maybe even some profits, but still being a BTC 99 percenter is a win-win. If BTC crashes you can brag about not being convinced, and if it continues up, you can complain about your new found wealth, a win-win!
I bought your BTC for the long term, thanks for the deal.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I thought you only bought at relative bottoms? My most recent BTC sale was at $54K+ while it was still on the way up. Wished I had sold a little more at $58K though. Taking profits is never a bad thing, even if it sometimes seems like it.
Its all a bottom. lol
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I caught the knife taking 30% off the table. Putting me way into the 'it's all gravy from here' category. I was expecting a bigger dip, which still may happen, and I'm kind of expecting it.
Remember TARP ?
MSTR has lost $80 million on that trade so far
Granted, still way up on the initial investment
I'm sure they are fully aware of the short term volatility and are buying for the long term, as am I.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
TARP as an asset is nothing like bitcoin as an "asset". I would liken bitcoin to goodwill.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Goodwill is having hiccups today
43142.85 USD −2967.13 (−6.43%)
Whales are battling the miners. Miners are winning. Monday should recover.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
I'm buying. It will go up; it will go down then it goes back up again. The question is why wouldn't you want just a little in your portfolio?
Do you have an answer to your question?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I didn't miss questions being answered with questions.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
@derryb said: "I didn't miss questions being answered with questions."
Be thankful you didn't live in ancient Greece.
From what I have read through this entire dialogue, I have come to the conclusion that the entire thing is based on the faith that eventually Bitcoin will become an totally accepted monetary unit. Some key words here being totally accepted. That means mom and pop and everyone accepts Bitcoins as a viable currency, dragging the Governments along because they have no choice.
The other key word here is Faith! Younger people seem to endorse the concept because they are more cognizant of the computer and it's uses than some of us old F*rts. The other thing that is a factor is that a lot of us older people have seen things, cycles and fads come and go, sometimes winning and sometimes losing on them , but we now have less recovery time in case of failure. To many of us, the Ethernet is something you use to catch etherbunnies!
I'm not nearly agressive in my investing as I was when in my 30's, 40's and 50's because there may not be enough time to recover from a major loss, so in the event that Bitcoin ends up being some kind of a scam, or fails altogether, maybe even from the fact that universal acceptance isn't forthcoming, I'm going to let you more agressive people build it up and win lose or draw, reap the profits, or losses, thereby incurred.
I do wish you luck!
Google Finance has added a Crypto tab at the top of its page. Still no PM tab.
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
Positive price portfolio performance for a non-correlated asset with just a minimal 1% exposure. Anyone with zero exposure is only doing a disservice to themselves regardless of their comprehension.
Gold -20 today, Nasdaq down 100+, ₿ +3k; have exposure to all.
handy interactive crypto chart
Give Me Liberty or Give Me Debt
KY lawmakers just approved a crypto mining tax incentive bill; in a state where 73% of the electricity production is coal-fired. Considering that Tesla does not make money selling cars (any profits come from selling energy credits), shouldn't Tesla lose energy credits to offset their ownership of bitcoin? I'm not sure this is being talked about, but environmentalists should be livid.
Did you answer your > @Tiggs2012 said:
So if you put in 1% and it doubles, you added 1% to your account. Thats not even statistically significant. There are better ways to add 1% while actually REDUCING risk.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
I don't think the FOMO speculation is concerned with doubling one's investment. It's more about looking in the rear view mirror, seeing past huge gains, and projecting similar gains into the future. The 1% of net worth suggestion would be seen as low risk, because most hodlers are seeking the elusive 10 or 100 bagger going forward. Better chance than buying lottery tickets. Also, some don't want to get left behind if there were actually some kind of widespread adoption.
Like what?
Derivatives. 😉😀
Knowledge is the enemy of fear