Bitcoins....
ricko
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There was absolutely no chance that I was going to get involved in this - call it gut feel - I like to call it common sense - but this looks like justification....
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/02/25/major-bitcoin-exchange-website-goes-offline/?intcmp=features
Cheers, RickO
http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/02/25/major-bitcoin-exchange-website-goes-offline/?intcmp=features
Cheers, RickO
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"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>There was absolutely no chance that I was going to get involved in this - call it gut feel - I like to call it common sense - but this looks like justification.... >>
+1 to this sentiment. I'm reminded of the game Jenga.
Just please remember that that is only one way to view it.
Cheers
It's all about what the people want...
<< <i>Can't figure it out. That is generally a good reason to stay away. >>
10 4
I didn't even attempt to figure it out, because it made no "horse" sense.
It's easy. No, really! You just wire money to an exchange and they send you an encrypted code for your "money". Then you can fly around the world and cash it in anywhere, tax-free. Unless it goes "poof" in the meantime. Then you're stuck in Bahrain or Tokyo or Rio and can't hitch a ride home.
I knew it would happen.
But something always bothered me- the entire picture never made sense.
Where do Bitcoins originate?
People mine them.
How do they mine them?
From really tough math puzzles only brute-force algorithms could solve. (Supposedly, anyway)
Where do the puzzles from from?
Block chains, made up of peoples' transactions.
Where do the peoples' transactions come from?
Bitcoin usage.
Where does Bitcoin usage come from?
Bitcoins.
Ah! So we've come full circle.
Edited to add: I spent no more than 3 hours mining before I realized it was a waste of time; thankfully, I never got involved. It's a fun thing to do if you have spare change in your pocket (literally, like, $0.68) to play with. Otherwise? It's really strange to understand. Try doing it yourself-- try to understand how Bitcoin functions. Each website will explain a very general aspect of it, and in the end, you're left more confused. /endRant
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What bitcoin has done is show us that an alternative to fiat is much desired. This bodes well for precious metals.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Perception determines value, especially when a product attracts speculators. Wanna buy some tulip bulbs? >>
Just so.
Yes, I'd buy some tulip bulbs for the right price. How does 5 cents each sound?
Same offer from me for bitcoins
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
"Paper money eventually returns to its intrinsic value---zero."----Voltaire
"Everything you say should be true, but not everything true should be said."----Voltaire
<< <i>Edited to add: I spent no more than 3 hours mining before I realized it was a waste of time; thankfully, I never got involved. It's a fun thing to do if you have spare change in your pocket (literally, like, $0.68) to play with. Otherwise? It's really strange to understand. Try doing it yourself-- try to understand how Bitcoin functions. Each website will explain a very general aspect of it, and in the end, you're left more confused. /endRant >>
Now let's talk reality. Where's all those $17 trillion dollars that have been "created"? How do we know they're real?
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>So much for the techie virtual money game. It's either real, or it's not.
Now let's talk reality. Where's all those $17 trillion dollars that have been "created"? How do we know they're real? >>
Because the DJIA says so.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>Can't wait for the founder of bitcoin to announce "HAHA! ONLY KIDDING!" >>
Not gonna happen. The founders have been absolutely anonymous since starting Bitcoin. Word has it that they own around 1 million BTC- which I guess is worth about $400,000,000-$500,000,000 (for now). Unless they cashed out a long time ago (which they prob did) and thus walked away with $1.1 Billion.
Why stay anonymous? They'd probably get robbed, killed, etc.
At least they'd be investigated immensely by authorities to see if they had any involvement in fraud.
<< <i>Now let's talk reality. Where's all those $17 trillion dollars that have been "created"? How do we know they're real? >>
(Assuming you're talking about the Fed's QE program, and not BTC, because even at its peak, BTC wasn't worth even a trillion) What would you consider real?
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<< <i>I would encourage anyone who has dismissed bitcoin to read this, which is the paper published by the creator of bitcoin......Bitcoin is a revolutionary idea. In my view it is a mistake to ignore it. >>
Cryptocurrency is a revolutionary idea- you'd have to be foolish to completely rule out its potential. The bashing on my end, however, is mainly directed at this current bitcoin model. I've read the original paper itself- and I'm still confused about the system's details. They definitely have a few holes in the model.
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A major Bitcoin exchange goes under because of a sustained black hat attack that siphoned off 350 million and this forum chortles because they think it affirms their suspicions that there is nothing useful about Bitcoin. This is akin to finding out the Nasdaq has a bug in their software.
The fact that a major player goes out of business and the currency retains it's value at close to 600 per seems to speak remarkably well of Bitcoin and it's future.
If some criminal syndicate managed to siphon off a comparable % of value from the Nasdaq or the NYSE the market would collapse.
<< <i>If some criminal syndicate managed to siphon off a comparable % of value from the Nasdaq or the NYSE the market would collapse. >>
That's the point, no criminal syndicate(some would claim that wall street is a criminal syndicate) can siphon off that large a percentage of value off of the Nasdaq or NYSE. The problem with bitcoin is its lack of security and the wild west mentality of investing in it. If it can ever get a safe and reputable way to exchange bitcoins with other currencies at stable prices it will succeed. 50% swings in value over a couple months is not the mark of a safe or stable currency. If these problems can ever be sorted out then those of you who got in early will do very well. That is a big if, it's way too speculative for my tastes right now. I remember the dot com craze of the late 90's. All anyone talked about was the new economy and how valuations didn't matter, these companies were going to be worth hundreds of billion in just a few years. Now virtually all of them no longer exist. It's the same thing with these crypto currencies, bitcoin was the first and now there are a bunch of them springing up. There are absolutely no barriers to entry, anyone with the technical knowledge to write code can create their very own digital currency.
the most is that "value" has no basis. Nobody actually works, toils, produces, or deserves bitcoins.
There is no foundation that I could see.
Stock prices are usually based on the labor and product of the company employees. Somebody worked
to produce the value of the stock.
Our currency and others around the world are supported by the labor of the citizens (for the most part).
bob
ten years from now, bitcoin will be spoken of in the same context as tulips and beanie babies, Madhoff and Ponzi, railroad stocks of the 1880s and dotcom stocks of the 1990's
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>I spent the better part of a whole day trying to understand it. I think I failed. What bothered me
the most is that "value" has no basis. Nobody actually works, toils, produces, or deserves bitcoins.
There is no foundation that I could see.
Stock prices are usually based on the labor and product of the company employees. Somebody worked
to produce the value of the stock.
Our currency and others around the world are supported by the labor of the citizens (for the most part).
bob
The orginial idea behind bitcoins was to have a conversion method for money that could not be traced back to the "owner." Bitcoins have always been bought with real dollars (that did require labor) but more recently in hopes that speculators will make them worth even more real dollars. What makes them different than tulips or dot.coms is that they are invisible and never actually held by the buyer. Speculators entered the market, drove prices through the roof and made theft by the "exchange" owners even more tempting.
There will be other attempts at virtual money, even by responsible financial organizations. However, removing the tracability of financial transactions greatly increases counterparty risk, as demonstrated with bitcoins. Once the market finally realizes this, they will return to the digital currency methods they are currently using with on-line banking and credit card payments.
Bitcoin failure will only drive more people who seek to protect the value of their money into physical alternatives. There may even be a relationship between current bitcoin decline and spot price increases.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
<< <i>
<< <i>I spent the better part of a whole day trying to understand it. I think I failed. What bothered me
the most is that "value" has no basis. Nobody actually works, toils, produces, or deserves bitcoins.
There is no foundation that I could see.
Stock prices are usually based on the labor and product of the company employees. Somebody worked
to produce the value of the stock.
Our currency and others around the world are supported by the labor of the citizens (for the most part).
bob
The orginial idea behind bitcoins was to have a conversion method for money that could not be traced back to the "owner." Bitcoins have always been bought with real dollars (that did require labor) but more recently in hopes that speculators will make them worth even more real dollars. What makes them different than tulips or dot.coms is that they are invisible and never actually held by the buyer. Speculators entered the market, drove prices through the roof and made theft by the "exchange" owners even more tempting.
There will be other attempts at virtual money, even by responsible financial organizations. However, removing the tracability of financial transactions greatly increases counterparty risk, as demonstrated with bitcoins. Once the market finally realizes this, they will return to the digital currency methods they are currently using with on-line banking and credit card payments.
Bitcoin failure will only drive more people who seek to protect the value of their money into physical alternatives. There may even be a relationship between current bitcoin decline and spot price increases. >>
Bitcoins idea centers around a Block Chain that acts as a ledger in which every transaction is recorded, accessed and verified through the network of Bitcoin users. Each transaction detail is accompanied by a unique Identification number, and the public address detail of either party.
I would not be so sure as to say that the original idea was to promote anonymity. What you see is John Does Address/Bank account shown as a string of code in the block chain. Using that information to trace someone may be difficult, but not impossible.
It's all about what the people want...
<< <i>derryb - you said "... puchased with real dollars..."?
I'm not sure what a "real"dollar is anymore, but personally, I don't see much difference between bitcon and "present" dollars (they're both computer entries). Except that there seems to be a limit on the number of bitcons, while no limit on Yellen's computer?... >>
Real dollars are what you and I accept as payment for our sweat. If we didn't consider them real, we wouldn't accept them.
The counterparty risk on the dollars in my wallet is pretty much limited to what they are worth when I hand them to the next guy. For now I know that he will accept them as a form of payment. My counterparty risk is therefore limited to "confidence."
The counterparty risk on my bitcoins (I actually avoid them) is the fact that my wallet is in someone else's pocket. Not knowing whose pocket is another problem.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey
I've never held a Bit Dollar.
The tools we are using to trade bitcoins are all in their infancy but a legion of developers are working on these problems. The stock market was once the wild west too...
The difference is that the US government pretends to stand behind the dollar, and in reality it's the over-extended US taxpayer who is on the hook for the government's gross negligence.
Bitcoin, on the other hand - doesn't place anyone in the position of being forced to pay for others' ill-advised spending largesse. No wonder the banks and the government hate it.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>
<< <i>these last two comments hit the nail on the head, IMO.
ten years from now, bitcoin will be spoken of in the same context as tulips and beanie babies, Madhoff and Ponzi, railroad stocks of the 1880s and dotcom stocks of the 1990's >>
There are a lot of people who have said similar things, and so far they have been proven wrong every time.
In 10 years, if this message board is still here, and if I am still here, I will bump this thread and you will either be right or wrong. The count down begins.
You have a deal. To me, it's academic, won't matter to me either way, as I want no part of it, having no need or desire to use it, and would prefer to avoid even the appearance of being involved in something that could be used for tax evasion, money laundering, bribery, or any number of illegal activities.
You, it is assumed, will be either better off for being involved in bitcoin, or worse off. I do hope for your sake and others that it works out well.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Like Gold and Silver?
I'm comfortable with security safeguards in place against fund theft, and would gladly open my books to federal or state authorities. I sleep like a baby and would keep it that way.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Who is the victim of money laundering or tax evasion ? The state that prints money from thin air when the taxes fall short? If every person in the US paid no Fed taxes then QE would just go to 150 billion a month what difference would it make?
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
hitler finds out about Mt gox
<< <i>hitler finds out about Mt gox >>
Fixed link?
And though I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin did fail tremendously, I have to admit...
...it has yet to fall like silver fell over the last couple years.
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<< <i>I still wouldn't get into Bitcoins, for the reasons I stated earlier- fundamentally, I think it's a flawed system.
And though I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin did fail tremendously, I have to admit...
...it has yet to fall like silver fell over the last couple years. >>
Uh... didn't bitcoin go from $1200 to $600 in a couple of months? That's a 50% haircut, I'd say it fell exactly like silver did.
<< <i>I still wouldn't get into Bitcoins, for the reasons I stated earlier- fundamentally, I think it's a flawed system.
And though I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin did fail tremendously, I have to admit...
...it has yet to fall like silver fell over the last couple years. >>
What part of the "system" are you referring to please?
The Idea, Protocol, Encryption, Network, Users/Consumers, or just the name... BitCoin and all of it's prior and up to date affiliations?
It's all about what the people want...
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<< <i>Another bitcoin "bank" dies >>
How convenient.
"Interest rates, the price of money, are the most important market. And, perversely, they’re the market that’s most manipulated by the Fed." - Doug Casey