Bitcoins....

rickoricko Posts: 52,557 ✭✭✭✭✭
There was absolutely no chance that I was going to get involved in this - call it gut feel - I like to call it common sense - but this looks like justification....

http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2014/02/25/major-bitcoin-exchange-website-goes-offline/?intcmp=features

Cheers, RickO
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Comments

  • derrybderryb Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭✭
    best for speculators to get in at the bottom. image

    Just because a Ponzi scheme is run by a government doesn’t mean it won’t collapse

  • MGLICKERMGLICKER Posts: 8,089 ✭✭✭
    Can't figure it out. That is generally a good reason to stay away.
    It is more fun to buy the book and the coin.
  • There is a headline about bitcoin future in doubt on the CNN site right now. Mt. Gox will go under but bitcoin will survive. It's not for me at this time though, way too volatile. These crypto currencies might be the wave of the future or they might not but I'll wait for them to gain some legitimacy and stabilize in price before I convert any of my money into them.
    Veni, Vidi, Vici
  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 14,392 ✭✭✭✭
    Lots of good folk were saying Bitcoins were better than US dollars. What an awesome scam---for all crypto currencies.
    Master of Puppets
  • WhiteTornadoWhiteTornado Posts: 2,162 ✭✭✭


    << <i>There was absolutely no chance that I was going to get involved in this - call it gut feel - I like to call it common sense - but this looks like justification.... >>



    +1 to this sentiment. I'm reminded of the game Jenga.
  • LukeMarshallLukeMarshall Posts: 540 ✭✭✭
    Ricko, Bitcoin can be fun to watch from an objectionable point of view...

    Just please remember that that is only one way to view it.

    Cheers

    It's all about what the people want...

  • OPAOPA Posts: 14,550 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Can't figure it out. That is generally a good reason to stay away. >>



    10 4

    I didn't even attempt to figure it out, because it made no "horse" sense.
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭
    I didn't even attempt to figure it out, because it made no "horse" sense.

    It's easy. No, really! You just wire money to an exchange and they send you an encrypted code for your "money". Then you can fly around the world and cash it in anywhere, tax-free. Unless it goes "poof" in the meantime. Then you're stuck in Bahrain or Tokyo or Rio and can't hitch a ride home.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 38,276 ✭✭✭✭
    I had reservations, but my best investment picks are even worse. image

    Practice makes perfect, and nobody is perfect. So practice being nobody, and you will be perfect.

  • I tried studying Bitcoin; I read the original paper brought forth by the creators, I tried my hand at mining, I did cost-benefit analyses as to how worthwhile investing in the machinery would be.

    But something always bothered me- the entire picture never made sense.

    Where do Bitcoins originate?
    People mine them.
    How do they mine them?
    From really tough math puzzles only brute-force algorithms could solve. (Supposedly, anyway)
    Where do the puzzles from from?
    Block chains, made up of peoples' transactions.
    Where do the peoples' transactions come from?
    Bitcoin usage.
    Where does Bitcoin usage come from?
    Bitcoins.

    Ah! So we've come full circle.

    Edited to add: I spent no more than 3 hours mining before I realized it was a waste of time; thankfully, I never got involved. It's a fun thing to do if you have spare change in your pocket (literally, like, $0.68) to play with. Otherwise? It's really strange to understand. Try doing it yourself-- try to understand how Bitcoin functions. Each website will explain a very general aspect of it, and in the end, you're left more confused. /endRant
    Successful BST transactions with: blu62vette, Shortgapbob, Dolan, valente151, cucamongacoin, ajaan

    Interests:
    Pre-Jump Grade Project
    Toned Commemoratives
  • derrybderryb Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Value of "invisible" money, while subject to temporarily price swings fueled by speculators, will never hold value until it is available for trading at an established, reliable source. Thus far all of the bitcoin "banks" have been as invisible as bitcoin itself. Until this changes, virtual money will remain "imaginary." Encrypted codes in return for my money is nothing short of a promise that is not even on paper. At least fiat is physical in that regard.

    What bitcoin has done is show us that an alternative to fiat is much desired. This bodes well for precious metals.

    Just because a Ponzi scheme is run by a government doesn’t mean it won’t collapse

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 19,817 ✭✭✭✭
    The value of anything is based on supply/demand/price/quantity functions that are well understood. Changes in S, D, P, and Q are what makes a market. For anything.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • derrybderryb Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Perception determines value, especially when a product attracts speculators. Wanna buy some tulip bulbs?

    Just because a Ponzi scheme is run by a government doesn’t mean it won’t collapse

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 19,817 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Perception determines value, especially when a product attracts speculators. Wanna buy some tulip bulbs? >>



    Just so.

    Yes, I'd buy some tulip bulbs for the right price. How does 5 cents each sound?

    Same offer from me for bitcoins image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • PerryHallPerryHall Posts: 34,350 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I can't imagine that this is coming as a surprise to any of the regulars here on the PM Forum.image
  • rickoricko Posts: 52,557 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No surprise PerryHall... but some amazement that there are those still defending bitcoins.... as derryb said, bodes well for PM's. Cheers, RickO
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 23,665 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can't wait for the founder of bitcoin to announce "HAHA! ONLY KIDDING!"
    Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.--Ben Franklin


  • << <i>Edited to add: I spent no more than 3 hours mining before I realized it was a waste of time; thankfully, I never got involved. It's a fun thing to do if you have spare change in your pocket (literally, like, $0.68) to play with. Otherwise? It's really strange to understand. Try doing it yourself-- try to understand how Bitcoin functions. Each website will explain a very general aspect of it, and in the end, you're left more confused. /endRant >>



    image I tried and failed to understand it myself. You really have to be a technology supernerd to understand bitcoin. I looked into it 2 or 3 years ago when bitcoins were like $20 each but every bitcoin site out there seems shady, so I didn't pursue it further. Not to mention as bitcoin gains popularity hackers will come up with plenty of malware to steal every last bitcoin you have accumulated.
    Veni, Vidi, Vici
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭
    So much for the techie virtual money game. It's either real, or it's not.

    Now let's talk reality. Where's all those $17 trillion dollars that have been "created"? How do we know they're real?
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • derrybderryb Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>So much for the techie virtual money game. It's either real, or it's not.

    Now let's talk reality. Where's all those $17 trillion dollars that have been "created"? How do we know they're real? >>


    Because the DJIA says so. image

    Just because a Ponzi scheme is run by a government doesn’t mean it won’t collapse



  • << <i>Can't wait for the founder of bitcoin to announce "HAHA! ONLY KIDDING!" >>


    Not gonna happen. The founders have been absolutely anonymous since starting Bitcoin. Word has it that they own around 1 million BTC- which I guess is worth about $400,000,000-$500,000,000 (for now). Unless they cashed out a long time ago (which they prob did) and thus walked away with $1.1 Billion.
    Why stay anonymous? They'd probably get robbed, killed, etc.
    At least they'd be investigated immensely by authorities to see if they had any involvement in fraud.



    << <i>Now let's talk reality. Where's all those $17 trillion dollars that have been "created"? How do we know they're real? >>


    (Assuming you're talking about the Fed's QE program, and not BTC, because even at its peak, BTC wasn't worth even a trillion) What would you consider real?

    Successful BST transactions with: blu62vette, Shortgapbob, Dolan, valente151, cucamongacoin, ajaan

    Interests:
    Pre-Jump Grade Project
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  • << <i>I would encourage anyone who has dismissed bitcoin to read this, which is the paper published by the creator of bitcoin......Bitcoin is a revolutionary idea. In my view it is a mistake to ignore it. >>


    Cryptocurrency is a revolutionary idea- you'd have to be foolish to completely rule out its potential. The bashing on my end, however, is mainly directed at this current bitcoin model. I've read the original paper itself- and I'm still confused about the system's details. They definitely have a few holes in the model.
    Successful BST transactions with: blu62vette, Shortgapbob, Dolan, valente151, cucamongacoin, ajaan

    Interests:
    Pre-Jump Grade Project
    Toned Commemoratives
  • gdavis70gdavis70 Posts: 662 ✭✭✭


    A major Bitcoin exchange goes under because of a sustained black hat attack that siphoned off 350 million and this forum chortles because they think it affirms their suspicions that there is nothing useful about Bitcoin. This is akin to finding out the Nasdaq has a bug in their software.

    The fact that a major player goes out of business and the currency retains it's value at close to 600 per seems to speak remarkably well of Bitcoin and it's future.

    If some criminal syndicate managed to siphon off a comparable % of value from the Nasdaq or the NYSE the market would collapse.



  • << <i>If some criminal syndicate managed to siphon off a comparable % of value from the Nasdaq or the NYSE the market would collapse. >>



    That's the point, no criminal syndicate(some would claim that wall street is a criminal syndicate) can siphon off that large a percentage of value off of the Nasdaq or NYSE. The problem with bitcoin is its lack of security and the wild west mentality of investing in it. If it can ever get a safe and reputable way to exchange bitcoins with other currencies at stable prices it will succeed. 50% swings in value over a couple months is not the mark of a safe or stable currency. If these problems can ever be sorted out then those of you who got in early will do very well. That is a big if, it's way too speculative for my tastes right now. I remember the dot com craze of the late 90's. All anyone talked about was the new economy and how valuations didn't matter, these companies were going to be worth hundreds of billion in just a few years. Now virtually all of them no longer exist. It's the same thing with these crypto currencies, bitcoin was the first and now there are a bunch of them springing up. There are absolutely no barriers to entry, anyone with the technical knowledge to write code can create their very own digital currency.
    Veni, Vidi, Vici
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 18,061 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I spent the better part of a whole day trying to understand it. I think I failed. What bothered me
    the most is that "value" has no basis. Nobody actually works, toils, produces, or deserves bitcoins.

    There is no foundation that I could see.

    Stock prices are usually based on the labor and product of the company employees. Somebody worked
    to produce the value of the stock.

    Our currency and others around the world are supported by the labor of the citizens (for the most part).


    bobimage
    BST deals: Dozens of buys/sells. Will provide a list upon request.
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom)
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 19,817 ✭✭✭✭
    these last two comments hit the nail on the head, IMO.

    ten years from now, bitcoin will be spoken of in the same context as tulips and beanie babies, Madhoff and Ponzi, railroad stocks of the 1880s and dotcom stocks of the 1990's

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • derrybderryb Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I spent the better part of a whole day trying to understand it. I think I failed. What bothered me
    the most is that "value" has no basis. Nobody actually works, toils, produces, or deserves bitcoins.

    There is no foundation that I could see.

    Stock prices are usually based on the labor and product of the company employees. Somebody worked
    to produce the value of the stock.

    Our currency and others around the world are supported by the labor of the citizens (for the most part).


    bobimage >>



    The orginial idea behind bitcoins was to have a conversion method for money that could not be traced back to the "owner." Bitcoins have always been bought with real dollars (that did require labor) but more recently in hopes that speculators will make them worth even more real dollars. What makes them different than tulips or dot.coms is that they are invisible and never actually held by the buyer. Speculators entered the market, drove prices through the roof and made theft by the "exchange" owners even more tempting.

    There will be other attempts at virtual money, even by responsible financial organizations. However, removing the tracability of financial transactions greatly increases counterparty risk, as demonstrated with bitcoins. Once the market finally realizes this, they will return to the digital currency methods they are currently using with on-line banking and credit card payments.

    Bitcoin failure will only drive more people who seek to protect the value of their money into physical alternatives. There may even be a relationship between current bitcoin decline and spot price increases.

    Just because a Ponzi scheme is run by a government doesn’t mean it won’t collapse

  • LukeMarshallLukeMarshall Posts: 540 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I spent the better part of a whole day trying to understand it. I think I failed. What bothered me
    the most is that "value" has no basis. Nobody actually works, toils, produces, or deserves bitcoins.

    There is no foundation that I could see.

    Stock prices are usually based on the labor and product of the company employees. Somebody worked
    to produce the value of the stock.

    Our currency and others around the world are supported by the labor of the citizens (for the most part).


    bobimage >>



    The orginial idea behind bitcoins was to have a conversion method for money that could not be traced back to the "owner." Bitcoins have always been bought with real dollars (that did require labor) but more recently in hopes that speculators will make them worth even more real dollars. What makes them different than tulips or dot.coms is that they are invisible and never actually held by the buyer. Speculators entered the market, drove prices through the roof and made theft by the "exchange" owners even more tempting.

    There will be other attempts at virtual money, even by responsible financial organizations. However, removing the tracability of financial transactions greatly increases counterparty risk, as demonstrated with bitcoins. Once the market finally realizes this, they will return to the digital currency methods they are currently using with on-line banking and credit card payments.

    Bitcoin failure will only drive more people who seek to protect the value of their money into physical alternatives. There may even be a relationship between current bitcoin decline and spot price increases. >>



    Bitcoins idea centers around a Block Chain that acts as a ledger in which every transaction is recorded, accessed and verified through the network of Bitcoin users. Each transaction detail is accompanied by a unique Identification number, and the public address detail of either party.

    I would not be so sure as to say that the original idea was to promote anonymity. What you see is John Does Address/Bank account shown as a string of code in the block chain. Using that information to trace someone may be difficult, but not impossible.

    It's all about what the people want...

  • derrybderryb Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>derryb - you said "... puchased with real dollars..."?

    I'm not sure what a "real"dollar is anymore, but personally, I don't see much difference between bitcon and "present" dollars (they're both computer entries). Except that there seems to be a limit on the number of bitcons, while no limit on Yellen's computer?... >>


    Real dollars are what you and I accept as payment for our sweat. If we didn't consider them real, we wouldn't accept them.

    The counterparty risk on the dollars in my wallet is pretty much limited to what they are worth when I hand them to the next guy. For now I know that he will accept them as a form of payment. My counterparty risk is therefore limited to "confidence."

    The counterparty risk on my bitcoins (I actually avoid them) is the fact that my wallet is in someone else's pocket. Not knowing whose pocket is another problem.

    Just because a Ponzi scheme is run by a government doesn’t mean it won’t collapse

  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 27,568 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The last real dollars I purchased in quantity were rolls of choice BU Morgan dollars for around $27 per coin a couple of years ago (when silver was $18/oz). I know those are "real" dollars.

    I've never held a Bit Dollar.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • gdavis70gdavis70 Posts: 662 ✭✭✭
    hat's the point, no criminal syndicate(some would claim that wall street is a criminal syndicate) can siphon off that large a percentage of value off of the Nasdaq or NYSE. The problem with bitcoin is its lack of security and the wild west mentality of investing in it. If it can ever get a safe and reputable way to exchange bitcoins with other currencies at stable prices it will succeed

    The tools we are using to trade bitcoins are all in their infancy but a legion of developers are working on these problems. The stock market was once the wild west too...
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 18,144 ✭✭✭
    I don't see much difference between bitcon and "present" dollars (they're both computer entries). Except that there seems to be a limit on the number of bitcons, while no limit on Yellen's computer?...

    The difference is that the US government pretends to stand behind the dollar, and in reality it's the over-extended US taxpayer who is on the hook for the government's gross negligence.

    Bitcoin, on the other hand - doesn't place anyone in the position of being forced to pay for others' ill-advised spending largesse. No wonder the banks and the government hate it.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 19,817 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>these last two comments hit the nail on the head, IMO.

    ten years from now, bitcoin will be spoken of in the same context as tulips and beanie babies, Madhoff and Ponzi, railroad stocks of the 1880s and dotcom stocks of the 1990's >>



    There are a lot of people who have said similar things, and so far they have been proven wrong every time.

    In 10 years, if this message board is still here, and if I am still here, I will bump this thread and you will either be right or wrong. The count down begins. image >>



    You have a deal. To me, it's academic, won't matter to me either way, as I want no part of it, having no need or desire to use it, and would prefer to avoid even the appearance of being involved in something that could be used for tax evasion, money laundering, bribery, or any number of illegal activities.

    You, it is assumed, will be either better off for being involved in bitcoin, or worse off. I do hope for your sake and others that it works out well. image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • gdavis70gdavis70 Posts: 662 ✭✭✭
    appearance of being involved in something that could be used for tax evasion, money laundering, bribery, or any number of illegal activities

    Like Gold and Silver?

  • BaleyBaley Posts: 19,817 ✭✭✭✭
    I do avoid currency-cash transactions exceeding a few hundred dollars. I have no problem with my digital fund flows being tracked and taxes paid on both purchases and investment profits.
    I'm comfortable with security safeguards in place against fund theft, and would gladly open my books to federal or state authorities. I sleep like a baby and would keep it that way.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • bronco2078bronco2078 Posts: 4,290 ✭✭✭✭


    Who is the victim of money laundering or tax evasion ? The state that prints money from thin air when the taxes fall short? If every person in the US paid no Fed taxes then QE would just go to 150 billion a month what difference would it make?






  • cohodkcohodk Posts: 14,392 ✭✭✭✭
    I see you are active on the Bitcoin forum, bluespaceant. So how much have you lost?
    Master of Puppets
  • OPAOPA Posts: 14,550 ✭✭✭✭
    "Bongo drive 1984 Lincoln that looks like old coin dug from ground."
  • daOnlyBGdaOnlyBG Posts: 1,063
    I still wouldn't get into Bitcoins, for the reasons I stated earlier- fundamentally, I think it's a flawed system.
    And though I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin did fail tremendously, I have to admit...

    ...it has yet to fall like silver fell over the last couple years.

    Successful BST transactions with: blu62vette, Shortgapbob, Dolan, valente151, cucamongacoin, ajaan

    Interests:
    Pre-Jump Grade Project
    Toned Commemoratives


  • << <i>I still wouldn't get into Bitcoins, for the reasons I stated earlier- fundamentally, I think it's a flawed system.
    And though I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin did fail tremendously, I have to admit...

    ...it has yet to fall like silver fell over the last couple years. >>



    Uh... didn't bitcoin go from $1200 to $600 in a couple of months? That's a 50% haircut, I'd say it fell exactly like silver did.
    Veni, Vidi, Vici
  • LukeMarshallLukeMarshall Posts: 540 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I still wouldn't get into Bitcoins, for the reasons I stated earlier- fundamentally, I think it's a flawed system.
    And though I wouldn't be surprised if Bitcoin did fail tremendously, I have to admit...

    ...it has yet to fall like silver fell over the last couple years. >>



    What part of the "system" are you referring to please?

    The Idea, Protocol, Encryption, Network, Users/Consumers, or just the name... BitCoin and all of it's prior and up to date affiliations?

    It's all about what the people want...

  • Wolf359Wolf359 Posts: 7,683 ✭✭✭
    Looks like all the exchanges can be hacked. Never in it, but it's time to bail if you are.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 23,665 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Another bitcoin "bank" dies >>



    How convenient.
    Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.--Ben Franklin
  • derrybderryb Posts: 24,257 ✭✭✭✭✭
    i suspect the fiat backers are doing the hacking, we all know they have the resources. But then again, that would be a consipiracy and it is just a theory.

    Just because a Ponzi scheme is run by a government doesn’t mean it won’t collapse

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