Neat example, Vern. Really looks to me like just honest wear on the reverse at first glance, but obviously the heavily "worn" areas on the eagle don't really match up with the rest of the coin, and I would expect the rims to be more heavily worn down considering the wear on the lower reverse (at least the lower reverse rims). Almost looks like somebody had a nice tough date F-15/VF-20 on their hands and really wanted a G-6, so they just decided to rub the lower half of the reverse side with their thumb for an hour or so a day for a couple of years ……though I highly doubt that is what has actually happened here.
My best is weak strike combined with maybe an ancient cleaning with some brief circulation wear thrown in. That or maybe the coin was mounted for a while on a display board with the reverse side being taped/glued and the residue removal process dulling the reverse side details dramatically (??)
Obviously I have no real idea…..but would love to read some true expert analysis!
Always looking for tougher PSA 10's of Nolan Arenado, Alex Bregman, Mookie Betts, Francisco Lindor, and Mike Trout.
There appears to be a commensurate area of high relief on the obverse in the headdress and liberty so I'd say an off pressure strike or a planchet that was oddly out of true.
We're all born MS70. I'm about a Fine 15 right now.
The reverse stars jump out at you in comparison to the lower half details. I don't think it's uneven wear. I also thought planchet was unbalanced during strike, or out of true? That makes sense.
HalfCollector- Very nice 92 with Variety.. Here my 92 PC-58 I've had it for a while now just never had a good picture.it's got a strong strike and even though it's crusty the luster is still strong underneath the toning. I think it's original toning and not(retoning) what do you guys think? P.S. I may have to send it to Vern for better pics. This is the best I could do with my GalaxyS4 phone 1
I like the 1892 Type One Quarters and that is a nice crusty (original) one.
Anyone know the official mintages of the 1892 Type 1 and Type 2 at all three mints ? I know the combined mintages but no specific breakdown was recorded, to the best of my knowledge. Anyone have additional info on this ?
I do know that the Proof Quarters of 1892, the Type 2 is 10 times more common than the Type 1 version. Although, there is no real price spread in the types.
Without dragging out a bunch of books, I'll just relate what my old friend, David Lawrence published in his 1994 Second Edition of The Complete Guide to Barber Quarters.
Philadelphia Quarters: Type 1 - is scarcer than Type 2 in both MS and Proofs.
New Orleans Quarters : Type 2 being more common than the Type 1
San Francisco Quarters : Type 1 being the more common.
It should be noted that the 1892 Quarters have the Mint Mark directly over the last R in Quarter. It's a one and only year occourance.
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
Doug- Thanks for the nice comment,and good to see ya stop in..
Mike-I appreciate your comment as well and very interesting on the whole Type Type 2 ordeal. I honestly did not even think to check it when I bought it. I guess that's the Rookie in me Lol.
Interesting 92 type discussion. Never thought anything about it before. Just saw a decent folder set on eBay advt as "complete set less The Big 3." Seller posted a question from someone saying that it wasn't a complete set without BOTH 92 type 1and 2. Never mind seller had to clarify again 3 are missing but I'd never heard of anyone adamantly standing up for the 92 types before. So there's something.
We're all born MS70. I'm about a Fine 15 right now.
Thanks to all for the comments on the 97-O qtr. My thought was that it had to be very slightly bent early in its life and then the higher point on the reverse worn through normal circulation. As it is now, the coin is not bent or "out of flat". I don't know how a coin can be struck slightly concave toward the reverse, so I'm thinking something must have happened to it after it left the coin press.
Halfcollector and Mark - good looking '92 qtrs.
Pics for this AM, a circ '92 with MM:
Vern l It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
That was as good an explanation of the oddly worn reverse as presented. It's almost impossible to say what caused it. The reverse center is worn down to a VG 6 - but the rims are closer to a 15, IMHO .
Super examples being shown here, nice job, HalfCollector, I meant to compliment you earlier.
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
That is quite an assemblage of Barbers. I can only assume that the owner will sooner or later use your services, Vern, to get them properly imaged. I have been somewhat remiss in getting my new Quarters imaged, and one of these days after they see CAC, I'll send them along to Messydesk. ( I think I might wait until ANA Chicago, as John is setting up there again this year ) . Shipping coins insured both ways ends up costing a bloody fortune. Especially since they get screened at CAC first.
No new newps to report, as I have not spotted anything I can use for any of my sets. Oh, no ! "The brick wall !" I hope I have not hit it, yet, at least. Last time I hit it, back in the mid 1970's, I didn't even look at a coin for almost 20 years. I no longer have that luxury. In another 20 years, I might not remember I ever collected coins at all, save for my empty coin albums, and all the numismatic books in my library !
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
California sunshine, sweet Calcutta rain, Honolulu star bright .......... Where's that confounded bridge? When you cut it, mama... mama, please save me a slice. I'd sure like a piece of your custard pie
Very impressive looking collection there (size wise .. Impossible to comment on specifics obviously) .. I would love to see close ups as well .. I am particularly curious about the raw coins myself .. would love to see what lurks in those 2x2 holders ...
I went to upload the 1908-D Quarter that returned from the mid west recently and noticed the file contained only the reverse and reverse slab shot of that coin ... Not sure if it is available or not but all I have is the original photo from the DKRC auction ...
I may post infrequently, although I read these forums a few days per week .. when I post, it is usually more dialogue than the average person's 25 posts .. Here is another that will follow in this pattern:
A study comparing/contrasting the 1896-O Half and 1909-O Quarter. The following is compiled data regarding these 2 coins. I firmly believe there has not been sufficient time in the era of slabbing to declare an intelligent decisive declaration. I will offer the data and my own opinion and conclusion of the analysis at the end. Mostly an objective study, there is little "subjective bias", except in the conclusion when I offer my forecasted opinion of the next 5 years.
* Both coins are nearly impossible to find in "problem free" AU holders * The 1896-O is even more difficult to find in MS whereas the 1909-O Quarter is actually somewhat available in MS * 1896-O half at NGC: 31 total graded XF or finer (only 3 are XF) .. 1 is XF40; 2 XF45, 1 AU50, 2 AU53, 5 AU55 and 3 AU58 with 17 finer. Only 11 in all AU grades with 17 in MS (finer) * 1896-O half at PCGS: 71 total graded XF or finer (26 are XF) .. 18 are XF40; 8 XF45, 6 AU50, 4 AU53, 8 AU55 and 3 AU58 with 24 finer. Only 21 in all AU grades with 24 in MS (finer) * 1909-O qtr. at NGC: 50 total graded XF or finer (only 6 are XF/AU) .. 1 is XF40; 0 XF45, 1 AU50, 0 AU53, 0 AU55 and 4 AU58 with 44 finer. Only 6 in XF & AU combined! 44 in MS * 1909-O qtr. at PCGS: 66 total graded XF or finer (10 are XF) .. 4 is XF40; 6 XF45, 3 AU50, 0 AU53, 2 AU55 and 3 AU58 with 48 finer. Only 11 in all AU grades with 48 in MS
Both Services (NGC & PCGS):
* There are more than twice as many quarters that are graded MS - or "finer" than AU58 than halves (92 quarters graded finer than AU58 vs. 41 half dollars graded finer than AU58). * There are 116 Quarters graded XF-MS of which 92 are graded MS, (13 are AU, and 11 are XF) * There are 102 Half Dollars graded XF-MS of which 41 are graded MS, (32 are AU, and 29 are XF) * The 1896-O is somewhat available in XF. The 1909-O Quarter is somewhat available in MS
Clearly the Quarter is far scarcer in specific grades of XF and AU but not in overall rarity of all grades XF (or AU) and finer (MS). The 1909-O is virtually a void in an XF or AU holder at NGC .. a grand total of 6 coins published at NGC in all grades 40-58 (and one of those, an AU50, I believe no longer exists.) ..
I still believe too many exist raw (both coins) to quantify this study.. In other words, the margin of error is likely too great to have any of this mean anything really .. It is a guide, a gauge, a starting point. If this is followed up in 10 years then I believe this would have a lot more credibility. It also does not account for ANACS, ICG graded coins, and "Details" coins - some of which are likely less problem-free than graded coins (Is that a triple double negative? I know it is poor English if nothing else) ... in conjunction with those existing in the raw.
1896-O half NGC. 31 Total graded XF- MS 40-1 45-2 50-1 53-2 55-6 (one was my original purchase so now 5, {maximum obviously}.. This NGC-55 has since been graded AU58 at PCGS) 58-3 60-66: 17
1896-O half at PCGS: 71 graded XF-MS67 (23 are XF ) 40-18 45-8 50-6 53-4 55-8 58-3 60-67: 24
1909-O quarter at NGC 40-1 45-0 50-1 53-0 55-0 58-4 60-67: 44
1909-O quarter at PCGS. 66 total graded XF-MS (48 are Unc.) 40-4 45-6 50-3 53-zero 55-2 58-3 60-66: 48
Both are extremely difficult to locate in problem free slabs in AU or MS with the 1896-O Half being much tougher in AU58-MS whereas the 1909-O Quarter is very scarce in AU but less than scarce in MS. I also believe the slabbing of these coins hasn't been "en vogue" long enough for the jury to declare a true verdict yet. There has been a tremendous short term run-up in price on the quarter - it was only a couple to a few years ago where a 1909-O XF could be had for $400-500 and an AU (if one could find one) could be had for $1000 or less (today's prices are more like $2000-$2500 for an XF and $3500-$5000 for an AU). The half dollar has had a slower and steadier price escalation, although the past year it has also gone up quicker than previously .. the Half dollar still shows a much longer foundation of support for the decades. Yes, David Lawrence (John Feigenbaum) has declared the extreme rarity that is the 1909-O quarter but the lesser demand the quarter has received vs. the half dollar also contributed to the lower prices. And with so few examples available, any small increase in demand will cause prices to soar quickly.
In conclusion, if one is seeking out specifically an XF or AU coin and has no interest in an MS coin, the quarter proves to be the scarcer coin, although I again footnote this with insufficient time for data accumulation due to the slabbing of these coins being predominantly popular in only recent years. I believe more time is needed to prove this (or disprove this). If one is seeking out the range of XF (or AU) or finer, and perhaps prefers an MS grade, the half dollar is by far the tougher coin. While they have similar numbers in AU, I give the nod to the half dollar as it is significantly more scarce in MS resulting in the number of available overall pieces to be less than half of the quarter. It is all about the "how many finer?" to me, that puts the half dollar in a different category. I also believe the demand for the half dollar outweighs the quarter significantly putting further upward pressure on the prices. In fact I believe 5-10 years from now, the half dollar will have increased by as much as 100% or more from the current standings whereas the 1909-O Quarter could be potentially more volatile due to the lesser demand coupled with the fact there are many more in MS (finer) available to satisfy collectors. The 1901-S Quarter also had a significant recent run up in the lower grades, but this coin in particular, seems to have found it's price-point in the upper middle grades and in my opinion, will continue to remain steady as this coin has now for about 10 years in grades of VF-AU
PS - One Last data chart (Figures taken from Coin World Trends and just used for one comparison tool ... Yes.. I know as well as anyone these coins aren't priced through any guide but these numbers are real world numbers, not counting one-offs, etc.)
1909-O Quarter AU-58 in 2007 issue = $800 1909-O Quarter AU-58 in 2014 issue = $2,750 Current selling price is approx. = $5,000 My prediction 5 years from now = $5,000-$6,000
1901-S Quarter F-12 in 2007 issue = $15,000 1901-S Quarter F-12 in 2014 issue = $15,000 Current selling price is approx. = $15,000 My Prediction 5 years from now = $15,000
1896-O Half AU-58 in 2007 issue = $1,100 1896-O Half AU-58 in 2014 issue = $3,250 Current selling price is approx. = $10,000 (Only 1 auction record of an AU58 from any service is from 4/2008, $12,750. And that coin looked to be very PQ from the images.. It is a single example. It also pre-dates "Everyman Collections".) My Prediction 5 years from now = $15,000-$18,000
Oh - this reply could fit nicely in the "What should we be buying thread" .. I have "dusted off my crystal ball" and declare AU/MS 1896-O Half Dollars to be both satisfying from a collector standpoint and profitable from the investment standpoint
My only observation of Sam's analysis is that each of these two coins was the last one I needed to complete a set of quarters and halves - in AU. They were very hard to find.
In the land of the blind the one-eyed man is king.
I would not start a Quarter set until I had the 1909-O in AU. It took Liz Coggan well over a year to locate one in high grade AU, but it was raw. No matter, I was pleased. She mentioned it would not holder at PCGS and she was correct. I didn't send it to them, as the coin was strictly a MS coin with a wiped OBV. ANACS confirmed our findings, UNC Details, Cleaned.
It didn't matter all that much to me at the time. I ended up chasing a PCGS 55 with a Gold CAC and it escaped my grasp for a few years. I finally tracked it down in Georgia, bought it sight unseen, flew up to Atlanta to pick it up - and the coin was nowhere like the original images I had been originally shown by a Forum Member, who was Bammed back in 2006. Although it was a nice coin, it wasn't what I had hoped for. So, I sold it a few weeks later to another Forum Member while at FUN in 2011. That coin now resides in an AU 58 holder. One of the POP 3 coins.
My last set of Quarters contained not only the UNC details coin, but a particularly nice MS 64, which now resides in Georgia at the home of my friend who sold me the AU 55 Gold CAC ...
I have had too many 1896-O Halves to count. My last better set which sold in August 2011 had a nice AU 55. Since then, I have had a few 25's, 30's & 35's, a couple of 40's including my current 40; I had a wonderful 45, but sold it. I am in the market for a nice 53.
Unlike my friend in Villa Rica, who owns his fair share of this date, I usually recirculate my coins as I locate another that appeals to me more. One of these days, I would like to see a display of his coins at a BCCS table at a major convention, and I would sit and guard them the entire show. How cool is that ? A Grading set of Halves VF 20, 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50-55, and 55-58 with heavy empathis on 58. Without a question in my mind, this collection is without the toughest accomplishments in the Barber Half Series I have ever seen put together. Not that I do not admire the All Time Finest Collections - ie: Shireman and Friend Collections, et al., ( I lusted after most of Dale's coins when he sold and I ended up picking up a few myself ).
Thank you again, Scott, your posts are always very informative and I also need to compliment you on your imaging skills, they have dramatically improved since you have started posting. At least the images you are posting have dramatically improved... Or ... has Vern been imaging for you ??
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
I am still searching to replace the coins I unfortunately sold in 2011 especially my favorites. Dates, dates, dates... so many scarce AU dates... Hopefully, the series won't "catch fire" for some time yet. Still, I am the caretaker for a few decent Barber Quarters including the pair below:
Awesome post and information as usual Scott. Very interesting read and some great data.
I have very little to add other than to affirm that the NGC AU-50 has indeed been crossed to PCGS, so an NGC-50 does not currently exist. This coin was the 8th and most recent coin to have been graded as AU by PCGS. If I am not mistaken there are currently 7 09o's in PCGS-AU plastic since the 55 that formerly had a CAC Gold sticker is now in a PC 58 holder I believe……although I may have this mixed up.
Always looking for tougher PSA 10's of Nolan Arenado, Alex Bregman, Mookie Betts, Francisco Lindor, and Mike Trout.
You can count if you like, but that wasn't the intent of my posting. I was merely tryibg to analyze and compare "absolute rarity" versus "condition rarity".
I believe the half-dollar is much more available in the grades. 40-53-55... but the quarter to be more available from choice AU to MS
Thus, I believe the overall absolute rarity to go with the half-dollar as it is much more scarce in higher grade
And more importantly I was stating there is not enough data available to make an informed conclusion in the year 2014 5 to 10 years from now after slabbing the lower grade pieces has matured I believe the numbers will mean more. Now, that said, stabbing MS pieces has been "en vogue" for decades so I believe coins graded choice AU to MS are much more reliable whereas XF/AU coins not as much And of course , the latter this is just my opinion
Coinfacts shows auction results: nine (9) MS 09-0 quarters have auctioned since 2011 (two of which were Unc details) Coinfacts shows four half dollars in the same time frame - mostly superb gems - The Stephen Duckor coin was one of these coins (one 64, two 65. One 66). Only one in grades on 60-63 sold since 2009
A lot of new holders in Paesan's friends collection. Would love to see what some of you quarter guys have missed. Just by coloration, it looks like quite a bit of ~VF/XF material. Either way, I would be very interested to see closeups.
Scott, I admire your passion. Those two dates bring quite a premium in auction in AU or MS when they are nice. But I am one of those in the devils advocate camps that say we haven't seen a lot of them yet. I feel the unpopular appeal of Barber coins have kept a few examples back. There are numerous dealers out there that don't even pay attention to the internet. I am going to a show tomorrow that I bet a good bit of the old crew don't even care. And I know one of them deals in nice classic coins. And if that happens in my remote part of the earth, it happens many more places. Scarce coins will surface in time if they are available in time. If they don't, it will only drive the price higher.
With all that said, I have no opinion which is scarcer or rare. I couldn't afford either of those coins in AU so it's fun just to commentate.
I hope my post surpassed your quota for quality substance.
Same coin - and these are the images I chased for years - searching for this coin - { photoshopped - now that I know the coin }
ow resided
My head is swimming with all the 09-O's about to be shown - so - I am editing this post to show which 1909-O I eventually bought - it now resides in the Labelman87 Collection.
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
Ok, now that I've got that out of my system - and I wish I had kept the coin - as now I can't find any AU I would like to include in the newer set.
On the bright side - I thought I'd familiarize myself with Glenn's inventory and I stumbled across this for my Dime set - which I will be picking up at the ANA next week....
Mike Hayes ~~~~~~~~~~~~ Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
bunch of NGC certified coins on ebay that end today, can't get myself to bid on them though because they all look similar... like they were cleaned and retoned, maybe placed in an album for 10 years then submitted for certification... about half outright say 'cleaned' on the label while the others made it through without 'cleaned' but I think I'll pass on all of them... I have an 1899-S PCGS AU-55 that was likely dipped (because it's blast white, it otherwise looks nice) and I don't like that, but I still like it more then almost all the ones I'm seeing on the bay now in these NGC holders. They look worse when viewed on the NGC website.
Stockwiz - I think you hit the nail on the head on that group of NGC qtrs on ebay, although the retoning may have been done quicker than putting the coins in an album and waiting several years.
Pics for tonight, more 09-O qtrs, 55, 61 (undergraded IMO), and 64. The 61 is from Paesan's stash.
Vern l It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
Vern-I like the 02 as well and the 96-O half is avery nice coin with beautiful original skin( as are all of your coins)..
Scott-that 09-O half is a sweet original example as well. I have seen a few different but they were either poorly struck or dipped out or cleaned and sometimes retoned.
Here is a few pics of the 92 I got a while back. I showed it 2weeks ago but I used different lighting. this is with my phone and a Paper towel ro diffuse the light so it's still a little darker than the pics suggest. Lots of Luster.
Here is my newest O mint member of my Quarter set. IMHO it's nicer than the few higher grade examples I have encountered at auction. Thanks to the seller of this beautiful coin. I know it was hard to let it go Lol. What do you guys think of its originality and strike? Al opinions welcome.1905-O XF-40 PCGS
Comments
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
Hoard the keys
Mark,
Remember, Vern posts images of friends' coins as well.
Those are not all his coins !!
I spotted this Barber Dime on Legend Morphy auctions
and got it this evening. ( will post images once I am off
the iPad ).
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
Yes I know I was referring to th 14p Quarter 96-O half and 96p quarter
Hoard the keys
<< <i>Mark,
Remember, Vern posts images of friends' coins as well.
Those are not all his coins !!
I spotted this Barber Dime on Legend Morphy auctions
and got it this evening. ( will post images once I am off
the iPad ). >>
Maybe he does own them! Has the pics...got a 3D printer yet Vern?
Picked this up at Legend Morphy this evening ....
the toning called out to me...
edit: removed images of other Proof Dimes.
Guess it was too distracting.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
Darrell - No 3D printer yet. I have a feeling my pics would have to be a lot better to make the 3D printer worthwhile.
Mike - Stellar 1904 newp.
Pics for this AM, from Scott's collection, PC55:
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
My best is weak strike combined with maybe an ancient cleaning with some brief circulation wear thrown in. That or maybe the coin was mounted for a while on a display board with the reverse side being taped/glued and the residue removal process dulling the reverse side details dramatically (??)
Obviously I have no real idea…..but would love to read some true expert analysis!
Always looking for tougher PSA 10's of Nolan Arenado, Alex Bregman, Mookie Betts, Francisco Lindor, and Mike Trout.
Love that proof dime, Mike.
Vern, the 1914 quarter is a beaut.
Paesan
Up early and it is quiet around the house, so I decided to shoot some coins. This is my 1892 Tripled Reverse quarter, it is a PC-55.
[URL=http://s291.photobucket.com/user/Half-collector/media/1892qtrobvtriplerevlowrescompositecopy_zpsa7a54df5.jpg.html]
Hoard the keys
Doug
I like the 1892 Type One Quarters and that is a nice crusty (original) one.
Anyone know the official mintages of the 1892 Type 1 and Type 2 at all three mints ?
I know the combined mintages but no specific breakdown was recorded, to the best
of my knowledge. Anyone have additional info on this ?
I do know that the Proof Quarters of 1892, the Type 2 is 10 times more common
than the Type 1 version. Although, there is no real price spread in the types.
Without dragging out a bunch of books, I'll just relate what my old friend, David Lawrence
published in his 1994 Second Edition of The Complete Guide to Barber Quarters.
Philadelphia Quarters: Type 1 - is scarcer than Type 2 in both MS and Proofs.
New Orleans Quarters : Type 2 being more common than the Type 1
San Francisco Quarters : Type 1 being the more common.
It should be noted that the 1892 Quarters have the Mint Mark directly over the last R in Quarter.
It's a one and only year occourance.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
Doug- Thanks for the nice comment,and good to see ya stop in..
Mike-I appreciate your comment as well and very interesting on the whole Type Type 2 ordeal. I honestly did not even think to check it when I bought it. I guess that's the Rookie in me Lol.
Hoard the keys
Never thought anything about it before.
Just saw a decent folder set on eBay advt as "complete set less The Big 3."
Seller posted a question from someone saying that it wasn't a complete set without BOTH 92 type 1and 2.
Never mind seller had to clarify again 3 are missing but I'd never heard of anyone adamantly standing up for the 92 types before.
So there's something.
Halfcollector and Mark - good looking '92 qtrs.
Pics for this AM, a circ '92 with MM:
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
Vern,
That was as good an explanation of the oddly worn reverse
as presented. It's almost impossible to say what caused it.
The reverse center is worn down to a VG 6 - but the rims are
closer to a 15, IMHO .
Super examples being shown here, nice job, HalfCollector, I meant
to compliment you earlier.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
Pic for tonight, first time in the forum, a collection from a friend of Paesan's. Perhaps we'll get to see individual coins in the future.
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
Hoard the keys
That is quite an assemblage of Barbers. I can only assume that the owner will
sooner or later use your services, Vern, to get them properly imaged. I have been
somewhat remiss in getting my new Quarters imaged, and one of these days after
they see CAC, I'll send them along to Messydesk. ( I think I might wait until ANA
Chicago, as John is setting up there again this year ) . Shipping coins insured both
ways ends up costing a bloody fortune. Especially since they get screened at CAC first.
No new newps to report, as I have not spotted anything I can use for any of my sets.
Oh, no ! "The brick wall !" I hope I have not hit it, yet, at least. Last time I hit it, back
in the mid 1970's, I didn't even look at a coin for almost 20 years. I no longer have
that luxury. In another 20 years, I might not remember I ever collected coins at all,
save for my empty coin albums, and all the numismatic books in my library !
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
When you cut it, mama... mama, please save me a slice. I'd sure like a piece of your custard pie
Very impressive looking collection there (size wise .. Impossible to comment on specifics obviously) .. I would love to see close ups as well .. I am particularly curious about the raw coins myself .. would love to see what lurks in those 2x2 holders ...
I went to upload the 1908-D Quarter that returned from the mid west recently and noticed the file contained only the reverse and reverse slab shot of that coin ... Not sure if it is available or not but all I have is the original photo from the DKRC auction ...
I may post infrequently, although I read these forums a few days per week .. when I post, it is usually more dialogue than the average person's 25 posts .. Here is another that will follow in this pattern:
A study comparing/contrasting the 1896-O Half and 1909-O Quarter. The following is compiled data regarding these 2 coins. I firmly believe there has not been sufficient time in the era of slabbing to declare an intelligent decisive declaration. I will offer the data and my own opinion and conclusion of the analysis at the end. Mostly an objective study, there is little "subjective bias", except in the conclusion when I offer my forecasted opinion of the next 5 years.
* Both coins are nearly impossible to find in "problem free" AU holders
* The 1896-O is even more difficult to find in MS whereas the 1909-O Quarter is actually somewhat available in MS
* 1896-O half at NGC: 31 total graded XF or finer (only 3 are XF) .. 1 is XF40; 2 XF45, 1 AU50, 2 AU53, 5 AU55 and 3 AU58 with 17 finer. Only 11 in all AU grades with 17 in MS (finer)
* 1896-O half at PCGS: 71 total graded XF or finer (26 are XF) .. 18 are XF40; 8 XF45, 6 AU50, 4 AU53, 8 AU55 and 3 AU58 with 24 finer. Only 21 in all AU grades with 24 in MS (finer)
* 1909-O qtr. at NGC: 50 total graded XF or finer (only 6 are XF/AU) .. 1 is XF40; 0 XF45, 1 AU50, 0 AU53, 0 AU55 and 4 AU58 with 44 finer. Only 6 in XF & AU combined! 44 in MS
* 1909-O qtr. at PCGS: 66 total graded XF or finer (10 are XF) .. 4 is XF40; 6 XF45, 3 AU50, 0 AU53, 2 AU55 and 3 AU58 with 48 finer. Only 11 in all AU grades with 48 in MS
Both Services (NGC & PCGS):
* There are more than twice as many quarters that are graded MS - or "finer" than AU58 than halves (92 quarters graded finer than AU58 vs. 41 half dollars graded finer than AU58).
* There are 116 Quarters graded XF-MS of which 92 are graded MS, (13 are AU, and 11 are XF)
* There are 102 Half Dollars graded XF-MS of which 41 are graded MS, (32 are AU, and 29 are XF)
* The 1896-O is somewhat available in XF. The 1909-O Quarter is somewhat available in MS
Clearly the Quarter is far scarcer in specific grades of XF and AU but not in overall rarity of all grades XF (or AU) and finer (MS). The 1909-O is virtually a void in an XF or AU holder at NGC .. a grand total of 6 coins published at NGC in all grades 40-58 (and one of those, an AU50, I believe no longer exists.) ..
I still believe too many exist raw (both coins) to quantify this study.. In other words, the margin of error is likely too great to have any of this mean anything really .. It is a guide, a gauge, a starting point. If this is followed up in 10 years then I believe this would have a lot more credibility. It also does not account for ANACS, ICG graded coins, and "Details" coins - some of which are likely less problem-free than graded coins (Is that a triple double negative? I know it is poor English if nothing else) ... in conjunction with those existing in the raw.
1896-O half NGC. 31 Total graded XF- MS
40-1
45-2
50-1
53-2
55-6 (one was my original purchase so now 5, {maximum obviously}.. This NGC-55 has since been graded AU58 at PCGS)
58-3
60-66: 17
1896-O half at PCGS: 71 graded XF-MS67 (23 are XF )
40-18
45-8
50-6
53-4
55-8
58-3
60-67: 24
1909-O quarter at NGC
40-1
45-0
50-1
53-0
55-0
58-4
60-67: 44
1909-O quarter at PCGS. 66 total graded XF-MS (48 are Unc.)
40-4
45-6
50-3
53-zero
55-2
58-3
60-66: 48
Both are extremely difficult to locate in problem free slabs in AU or MS with the 1896-O Half being much tougher in AU58-MS whereas the 1909-O Quarter is very scarce in AU but less than scarce in MS. I also believe the slabbing of these coins hasn't been "en vogue" long enough for the jury to declare a true verdict yet. There has been a tremendous short term run-up in price on the quarter - it was only a couple to a few years ago where a 1909-O XF could be had for $400-500 and an AU (if one could find one) could be had for $1000 or less (today's prices are more like $2000-$2500 for an XF and $3500-$5000 for an AU). The half dollar has had a slower and steadier price escalation, although the past year it has also gone up quicker than previously .. the Half dollar still shows a much longer foundation of support for the decades. Yes, David Lawrence (John Feigenbaum) has declared the extreme rarity that is the 1909-O quarter but the lesser demand the quarter has received vs. the half dollar also contributed to the lower prices. And with so few examples available, any small increase in demand will cause prices to soar quickly.
In conclusion, if one is seeking out specifically an XF or AU coin and has no interest in an MS coin, the quarter proves to be the scarcer coin, although I again footnote this with insufficient time for data accumulation due to the slabbing of these coins being predominantly popular in only recent years. I believe more time is needed to prove this (or disprove this). If one is seeking out the range of XF (or AU) or finer, and perhaps prefers an MS grade, the half dollar is by far the tougher coin. While they have similar numbers in AU, I give the nod to the half dollar as it is significantly more scarce in MS resulting in the number of available overall pieces to be less than half of the quarter. It is all about the "how many finer?" to me, that puts the half dollar in a different category.
I also believe the demand for the half dollar outweighs the quarter significantly putting further upward pressure on the prices. In fact I believe 5-10 years from now, the half dollar will have increased by as much as 100% or more from the current standings whereas the 1909-O Quarter could be potentially more volatile due to the lesser demand coupled with the fact there are many more in MS (finer) available to satisfy collectors. The 1901-S Quarter also had a significant recent run up in the lower grades, but this coin in particular, seems to have found it's price-point in the upper middle grades and in my opinion, will continue to remain steady as this coin has now for about 10 years in grades of VF-AU
PS - One Last data chart (Figures taken from Coin World Trends and just used for one comparison tool ... Yes.. I know as well as anyone these coins aren't priced through any guide but these numbers are real world numbers, not counting one-offs, etc.)
1909-O Quarter AU-58 in 2007 issue = $800
1909-O Quarter AU-58 in 2014 issue = $2,750
Current selling price is approx. = $5,000
My prediction 5 years from now = $5,000-$6,000
1901-S Quarter F-12 in 2007 issue = $15,000
1901-S Quarter F-12 in 2014 issue = $15,000
Current selling price is approx. = $15,000
My Prediction 5 years from now = $15,000
1896-O Half AU-58 in 2007 issue = $1,100
1896-O Half AU-58 in 2014 issue = $3,250
Current selling price is approx. = $10,000 (Only 1 auction record of an AU58 from any service is from 4/2008, $12,750. And that coin looked to be very PQ from the images.. It is a single example. It also pre-dates "Everyman Collections".)
My Prediction 5 years from now = $15,000-$18,000
Oh - this reply could fit nicely in the "What should we be buying thread" .. I have "dusted off my crystal ball" and declare AU/MS 1896-O Half Dollars to be both satisfying from a collector standpoint and profitable from the investment standpoint
I would not start a Quarter set until I had the 1909-O in AU.
It took Liz Coggan well over a year to locate one in high grade
AU, but it was raw. No matter, I was pleased. She mentioned it
would not holder at PCGS and she was correct. I didn't send it
to them, as the coin was strictly a MS coin with a wiped OBV.
ANACS confirmed our findings, UNC Details, Cleaned.
It didn't matter all that much to me at the time. I ended up
chasing a PCGS 55 with a Gold CAC and it escaped my grasp
for a few years. I finally tracked it down in Georgia, bought it
sight unseen, flew up to Atlanta to pick it up - and the coin was
nowhere like the original images I had been originally shown by
a Forum Member, who was Bammed back in 2006. Although it
was a nice coin, it wasn't what I had hoped for. So, I sold it a
few weeks later to another Forum Member while at FUN in 2011.
That coin now resides in an AU 58 holder. One of the POP 3 coins.
My last set of Quarters contained not only the UNC details coin,
but a particularly nice MS 64, which now resides in Georgia at the
home of my friend who sold me the AU 55 Gold CAC ...
I have had too many 1896-O Halves to count. My last better set which
sold in August 2011 had a nice AU 55. Since then, I have had a few 25's,
30's & 35's, a couple of 40's including my current 40; I had a wonderful 45,
but sold it. I am in the market for a nice 53.
Unlike my friend in Villa Rica, who owns his fair share of this date, I usually recirculate
my coins as I locate another that appeals to me more. One of these days, I would like
to see a display of his coins at a BCCS table at a major convention, and I would sit
and guard them the entire show. How cool is that ? A Grading set of Halves VF 20, 25, 30,
35, 40, 45, 50-55, and 55-58 with heavy empathis on 58. Without a question in my mind,
this collection is without the toughest accomplishments in the Barber Half Series I have
ever seen put together. Not that I do not admire the All Time Finest Collections - ie: Shireman
and Friend Collections, et al., ( I lusted after most of Dale's coins when he sold and I ended
up picking up a few myself ).
Thank you again, Scott, your posts are always very informative and I also need to compliment
you on your imaging skills, they have dramatically improved since you have started posting. At
least the images you are posting have dramatically improved... Or ... has Vern been imaging for you ??
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
edit: I sold this in 2009:
___________
Craig
I have very little to add other than to affirm that the NGC AU-50 has indeed been crossed to PCGS, so an NGC-50 does not currently exist. This coin was the 8th and most recent coin to have been graded as AU by PCGS. If I am not mistaken there are currently 7 09o's in PCGS-AU plastic since the 55 that formerly had a CAC Gold sticker is now in a PC 58 holder I believe……although I may have this mixed up.
Always looking for tougher PSA 10's of Nolan Arenado, Alex Bregman, Mookie Betts, Francisco Lindor, and Mike Trout.
You can count if you like, but that wasn't the intent of my posting.
I was merely tryibg to analyze and compare "absolute rarity" versus "condition rarity".
I believe the half-dollar is much more available in the grades. 40-53-55... but the quarter to be more available from choice AU to MS
Thus, I believe the overall absolute rarity to go with the half-dollar as it is much more scarce in higher grade
And more importantly I was stating there is not enough data available to make an informed conclusion in the year 2014
5 to 10 years from now after slabbing the lower grade pieces has matured I believe the numbers will mean more. Now, that said, stabbing MS pieces has been "en vogue" for decades so I believe coins graded choice AU to MS are much more reliable whereas XF/AU coins not as much
And of course , the latter this is just my opinion
Coinfacts shows auction results: nine (9) MS 09-0 quarters have auctioned since 2011 (two of which were Unc details)
Coinfacts shows four half dollars in the same time frame - mostly superb gems - The Stephen Duckor coin was one of these coins (one 64, two 65. One 66). Only one in grades on 60-63 sold since 2009
Mike - Hope your "wall" ends in Atlanta next week.
Scott - Great analysis of two very tough dates. It will be interesting to see how your predictions pan out 5 years from now.
Craig - Love those 09-O's in MS.
Pics for tonight, still my favorite AU 09-O qtr, from the Iowa collection, PC55:
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
Here's the only one I've seen in hand, from Paesan's stash (my pics don't do it justice):
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
Scott, I admire your passion. Those two dates bring quite a premium in auction in AU or MS when they are nice. But I am one of those in the devils advocate camps that say we haven't seen a lot of them yet. I feel the unpopular appeal of Barber coins have kept a few examples back. There are numerous dealers out there that don't even pay attention to the internet. I am going to a show tomorrow that I bet a good bit of the old crew don't even care. And I know one of them deals in nice classic coins. And if that happens in my remote part of the earth, it happens many more places. Scarce coins will surface in time if they are available in time. If they don't, it will only drive the price higher.
With all that said, I have no opinion which is scarcer or rare. I couldn't afford either of those coins in AU so it's fun just to commentate.
I hope my post surpassed your quota for quality substance.
<< <i>
MessyDesk's Images above.
Same coin - and these are the images I chased for years - searching for this coin - { photoshopped - now that I know the coin }
My head is swimming with all the 09-O's about to be shown - so - I am editing this post to show
which 1909-O I eventually bought - it now resides in the Labelman87 Collection.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
On the bright side - I thought I'd familiarize myself with Glenn's inventory and I stumbled across this for my Dime set - which I will be picking up
at the ANA next week....
~~~~~~~~~~~~
Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !
New Barber Purchases
Mike - Really nice 06-O dime. Congrats.
Stockwiz - I think you hit the nail on the head on that group of NGC qtrs on ebay, although the retoning may have been done quicker than putting the coins in an album and waiting several years.
Pics for tonight, more 09-O qtrs, 55, 61 (undergraded IMO), and 64. The 61 is from Paesan's stash.
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
Scott, That 09-O half also has a great XF look.
Paesan
Scott, love that 09-O half. If I was collecting barber halves I'd offer you goofy huge stupid crazy money for it.
Doug
Pics for this AM, a 96-O half I owned for a year or two, before it made its way back to NC, PC50:
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
Scott-that 09-O half is a sweet original example as well. I have seen a few different but they were either poorly struck or dipped out or cleaned and sometimes retoned.
Here is a few pics of the 92 I got a while back. I showed it 2weeks ago but I used different lighting. this is with my phone and a Paper towel ro diffuse the light so it's still a little darker than the pics suggest. Lots of Luster.
Hoard the keys
Pics for this AM, from the Iowa collection, PC58:
l
It's not having what you want, it's wanting what you've got.
<< <i>Mark - What do you mean, you used a paper towel? To filter out light?
Yea. I dnt have equipment so I used it to take the glare off.
Hoard the keys
Hoard the keys