eBay Informants/Agents in Our Midst...New Developments/Resolution
RichR
Posts: 3,864 ✭✭✭✭✭
So I decided to start a second thread on this topic so it can get a full hearing...rather than getting buried in a now longish thread (and thereby overlooked by many forum members).
So late last night it seems to have been revealed that at least one and possibly two (or more) members of this forum are also moonlighting as uncompensated (or so they claim) agents for eBay's newly formed Community Watch Group. More details here:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=854783&STARTPAGE=10
For the evidence gathered to date, it seems that in the name of market acceptability or buyer protection, this group (based only on low res photos) can recommend (with great effect) that listings of validly slabbed PCGS (and one would logically think NGC) coins be removed and their owner threatened from attempting to ever re-sell them on the site. And this is seemingly being done without any specific eBay guidelines as to exactly how the coins in question (in this case...alledgedly for suspicious toning) are violating any published eBay guidelines.
Does anyone else feel that the Rubicon has now been officially crossed and that we're all now in a very slippery conflict of interest area here? That human nature being what it is...and strong personalities being what they are...that this opens up the sale of slabbed items by members of this forum to potential vendettas. And, more directly, are we comfortable having our discussions here directly transferred into actions by eBay with potential financial ramifications for other members?
And isn't this way too close to becoming a corporate Big Brother situation...not to mention a very weird situation for our host?
So late last night it seems to have been revealed that at least one and possibly two (or more) members of this forum are also moonlighting as uncompensated (or so they claim) agents for eBay's newly formed Community Watch Group. More details here:
http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=26&threadid=854783&STARTPAGE=10
For the evidence gathered to date, it seems that in the name of market acceptability or buyer protection, this group (based only on low res photos) can recommend (with great effect) that listings of validly slabbed PCGS (and one would logically think NGC) coins be removed and their owner threatened from attempting to ever re-sell them on the site. And this is seemingly being done without any specific eBay guidelines as to exactly how the coins in question (in this case...alledgedly for suspicious toning) are violating any published eBay guidelines.
Does anyone else feel that the Rubicon has now been officially crossed and that we're all now in a very slippery conflict of interest area here? That human nature being what it is...and strong personalities being what they are...that this opens up the sale of slabbed items by members of this forum to potential vendettas. And, more directly, are we comfortable having our discussions here directly transferred into actions by eBay with potential financial ramifications for other members?
And isn't this way too close to becoming a corporate Big Brother situation...not to mention a very weird situation for our host?
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Comments
I think getting a handle on the coin doctoring situation in the hobby is a good thing. This is especially true for coin doctors that try to get doctored coins into our host's slabs.
I wouldn't know, Zoins...but you seem to have an exceptionally clear understanding of the alledged goals and motivations of eBay's newly formed CWG...although the vast majority of us didn't know they even existed until earlier this week. So please feel free to elaborate on this or any related topic...
<< <i>
<< <i>Are there coin doctors in our midst? >>
I wouldn't know, Zoins...but you seem to have an exceptionally clear understanding of the alledged goals and motivations of eBay's newly formed CWG...although the rest of us didn't know they even existed until earlier this week. So please feel free to elaborate on this or any related topic... >>
Are you reading my posts?
I've previously stated that I was unaware of the CWG until the thread in question and have had no contact with or knowledge of any members of that group. That hasn't changed.
And isn't this way too close to becoming a corporate Big Brother situation...not to mention a very weird situation for our host? >>
I would think that if any volunteer agents abused their service then ebay would hear about it and they would be dismissed from their duties. (at least I hope)
I don't think it is fair to attempt to disparage the entire group based on one decision that came public. They likely end many auctions a day of fake coins and slabs for outweighing the other isolated incident.
However, in relation to this topic you state that doctored coins are in PCGS plastic. So by extention, you're saying that the coins at the heart of this discussion were doctored.
And your judgement, just like eBay's, is based on nothing more than a photo trumping an actual physical exam and certification by several PCGS/NGC graders. And that, my friend, is at the heart of the problem here...because that now says that no slabbed coin is safe from potential arbitrary action by a faceless group with unknown motivations and biases, i.e. "toned monstrousities".
And, I'll further add...let's just say that you do somehow buy a slabbed AT coin...and you subsequently become aware of it...don't both TPGs stand behind their products? Won't the problem be addressed on their end? Why does eBay now feel they need to become the ultimate gatekeeper...without having paid experts on hand to back up their verdicts?
Do they also have a group of volunteer master mechanics/neighborhood busybodies trolling around looking to nuke "suspect" used car sales?
That's just dandy...EXCEPT as far as we can tell, these were neither fake coins nor fake PCGS slabs.
<<they don't surf around looking at auctions themselves>>
No? Would that be because the members of this forum as probably doing quite a bit of the legwork for them...very helpful...and a potentially very chilling situation on the free and open exchange of opinions on this forum.
<< <i><<They likely end many auctions a day of fake coins and slabs >>
As far as we know, these were neither fake coins nor fake slabs.
<<they don't surf around looking at auctions themselves>>
No? Would that be because the members of this forum as probably doing quite a bit of the legwork for them...very helpful...and a potentially very chilling situation on the free and open exchange of opinions on this forum. >>
You missed my point completely. They likely end many auctions that should be ended and you don't hear about those now do you?
The only legwork that could be done here is asking people to report an item.
It seems you hate the idea of this group and that members could be on here but I think you are blowing it far out of control. Maybe contact ebay to get some facts on the group.
Honestly, I am cool with that. The coin market has always suffered from the public's fear that the coins they receive may be doctored or fake. Even though some innocent people might run afoul of the volunteer committee, I think they'll do more harm than good. Some of the guys here are pretty good at spotting fake coins and slabs. They are better than I am at it and I've seen cases where I would have been fooled. I like to think that a group is screening these things, likely by reports received. True, they can't always do it properly from a poor picture, but an "innocent" seller can always take better pictures that prove their case and post it up there.
An an analogy, our criminal punishment system isn't perfect. Innocent people do get jailed. But I'm still glad its there because the good outweighs the bad.
Steve
Really...I wouldn't know the details. I guess I wasn't wearing my secret decoder ring that day...or maybe eBay's Star Chamber committee tried to call and I wasn't home.
Once again, in the name of "enhancing our eBay experience," maybe someone can post their CWG member guidelines so the rest of us can evaluate how this group is constituted and supposed to act...while arbitrarily overruling PCGS (and likely NGC) grade determinations.
It's my opinion that this has been overwhelmingly good for ebay and our hobby.
Like anything else there will occasionally be mistakes. And that is what happened recently. We have not seen other examples and I seriously doubt ebay intends to empower CWG members to kill auctions for PCGS and NGC coins based on their perception of the coins' grades, color, toning, etc. from photographs.
This is much ado about nothing.
Lance.
<< <i>Calling them ebay informants/agents is very misleading. They volunteer to do this, they are not paid. They do it to try and make ebay a better place by adding some knowledge.
I don't think it is fair to attempt to disparage the entire group based on one decision that came public. They likely end many auctions a day of fake coins and slabs for outweighing the other isolated incident. >>
Couple points.
- They are eBay agents. They act on behalf of eBay.
- The group and its stated goals are not bad ones. The design and execution of said group is horrible.
I've been a member of an industry watchdog group in another life. And I can tell you that transparency and public outreach are fundamentally critical to a groups overall success and its public perception.
Where is their mission statement?
Where is this groups articles on fraud and deception in numismatics?
Where have they published any standards or guidelines for not only the activities of the sellers they monitor but the activities of the group itself?
Where do they publish their statistics and studies on regarding their work?
How do you even reach the group to ask them any questions not relating to a specific eBay item?
Where can anyone voice a grievance with the group or attempt remediation over an issue?
The whole thing is designed and run in such a sophomoric fashion it would be laughable if it didn't pose a legitimate threat to the very industry it claims to want to protect.
As for the OPs original question. I could care less if CCW group members are here. Heck, I think all of them should be required to have an account here and a couple other decent forums. But, I do have very real issues with the CCW group and its processes.
OK...so last month ANACS slabs are essentially blackballed.
And this month PCGS slabs (and likely NGC slabs) are nuked without adequate explanation (or recourse).
Please define the words "out of control"...and then apply them to eBay nuking PCGS slabs!
If ebay decides they have a problem with a seller then they could pull anything they want, for any reason who cares if its in a slab? Low res pics hi res pics what difference does it make? Legit or not .
Why does the item matter ? The group probably judges sellers of coins as much as the coin.
If I list a slab for 99 cents with $300 shipping how long will it stay up?
If they don't want you selling any more then your stuff goes poof. Go sit on the bench ,restrict you ban you whatever.
If you annoy PCGS with BST listings they don't like do they leave them up if they are slabs?
I assume you mean to say "...kill any ADDITIONAL auctions for PCGS and NGC coins based on their perception of the coins' grades, color, toning, etc."...because it already happened!
I do have a problem with the group's being anonymous.
Who's to say they are not slamming coins listed by their competitors, for example?
We know who PCGS is. We know who NGC is. Heck, we even know who CAC is. We do not know who the eBay Watch Group is.
<<- They are eBay agents. They act on behalf of eBay.>>
<<- The group and its stated goals are not bad ones. The design and execution of said group is horrible.>>
Well said.
And my bottom line is this...does everyone who has colorful and breathtaking gems in TPG rattlers and old fattie slabs now want to have them all reslabbed...because, you know, standards change...and it's "for your own protection!"
...and all based on an image?!?!?
I said, "no, I thought everyone maintained the standards I was raised with when it comes to serving customers".
In that respect, I am glad the venue is there. It's good to be held accountable, as it was in the military. I think every man should go through it. Most countries have conscription. We just "register".
However, in a civilian and civilized society, it's hard to be successful in the coin business when there isn't a "standard operating procedure" or when "each coin stands on it's own merit". Who's duty is it to stand guard ? Each person ought be responsible for their self. Those who cause the rest of us to be "monitored" are the problem, not the system in place.
I would agree...however based on the little that we suspect we know, these AGENTS (and it is an accurate and correct term for this situation)...have been instructed and have agreed, to be anonymous.
<< <i>Perhaps........It might be best to ask forum members if they belong or have influence on this committee ??............I would think they would have no problem stepping up and speaking (or perhaps I am wrong)......IMO >>
This is what i cant figure out , i read the thread linked and i dont see anywhere that a member has said they are part of any group on ebay.I have seen members in tha past saying they do work volunteer style for ebay but it wasnt to do with this incident.Im wondering how the OP came up with such a title as "in our midst" , kinda silly considering one doesnt need to even be a member here to read the boards,the entire planet is "in our midst" if it chooses to be.
All true...however, I thought that's why we've been paying for TPG certification? We've handed these decisions to the experts with the tools and facilities to back it up.
If we don't know why the auctions were nuked and we are hearing one side of the story why are so many conclusions being jumped in to? I don't know that seller or his sales history. Something may have happened that caused those items to be taken down that we do not know about.
Lance.
<<This is what i cant figure out , i read the thread linked and i dont see anywhere that a member has said they are part of any group on ebay.>>
Late last night it was categorically stated that "CWG members are prohibited from publicly announcing their identities. There are at least two of them on this forum."
Now if the original poster of that gem has had second thoughts about revealing it...and has retroactively deleted it...that's another story.
But it was there because I cut, pasted and replied to it after midnight.
<< <i>Are there coin doctors in our midst?
I think getting a handle on the coin doctoring situation in the hobby is a good thing. This is especially true for coin doctors that try to get doctored coins into our host's slabs. >>
Secret Societies with set agendas that act as vigilanties to "clean up" the hobby is more damaging than good regardless of the reasoning.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>From what I understand ebay prohibits CWG members from publicly disclosing their positions. Can anyone imagine reasons why this is so?
Lance. >>
To avoid corruption of the membership through intimidation and bribery.
It isn't uncommon and can be properly managed. In this case it isn't.
<< <i><<This is what i cant figure out , i read the thread linked and i dont see anywhere that a member has said they are part of any group on ebay.>>
Late last night it was categorically stated that "CWG members are prohibited from publicly announcing their identities. There are at least two of them on this forum."
Now if the original poster of that gem has had second thoughts about revealing it...and has retroactively deleted it...that's another story.
But it was there because I cut, pasted and replied to it after midnight. >>
What difference does it make ? Even if they were not members theres nothing to stop them perusing this board.I think some people like to crack on they are something they are not actually , as in the previous instances where members have intimated they are some kind of ebay police.
<< <i><<Who's duty is it to stand guard ?>>
All true...however, I thought that's why we've been paying for TPG certification? We've handed these decisions to the experts with the tools and facilities to back it up. >>
I am in agreement Rich. Actually, the problem is what's going on with the coins after they leave the TPG. If they can be "altered" , as has been suggested with gas, heat, etc... then there needs to be oversight for eBay's liablity, as well as PCGS'.
On the other hand, we sellers are the "breadwinners" who's fees are funding the advertising we are doing with our dollars along with our submission costs. We pay a lot to the USPS, too. Lest we forget computer companies, ink companies, paper companies and utility companies.
It's a conundrum and conformity is about the only thing we have to agree on , regardless... if we want to use that venue.
Ahhh...they've actually specifically been formed to act as "eBay police"...there is actually no other compelling reason for the group to exist.
<< <i>If you start to see lots of PCGS coin auctions nuked then you have cause for concern. All this over one instance when the group has been around for years makes no sense.
If we don't know why the auctions were nuked and we are hearing one side of the story why are so many conclusions being jumped in to? I don't know that seller or his sales history. Something may have happened that caused those items to be taken down that we do not know about. >>
One instance that has come to light, how many have gone under the radar?? Perhaps none but it is foolish to assume that this is the one and only incident where a listing has been pulled in this manor. The op is correct this is a very slippery slope that appears to be mismanaged baised on the availible information; like you I'd like to hear both sides of the story but if one side says silent that will be difficult.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
these are pcgs graded coins being insulted
btw
this is one crowd i'm not in...
i'm bothered enough with how our country is turning into a police state as it is
sad-sad stuff i say
Over the past 20+ years the hobby/industry has essentially evolved as follows:
Raw Coins > Slabbed Coins by Many TPGs > Slabbed Coins by Two TPGs...and all at great expense to everybody here.
Just where exactly do we stop and say, "Yes...this is a certified coin...and by all accounts it's kosher" And then you decide to buy or pass accordingly...AND if something did slip by the screeners, the last two TPGs standing seem to try to do the right thing when given the opportunity.
Do we really need/want another level of nonsence (and expense) laddled onto an already pretty well established process? Do we want to upgrade all older slabs to their modern counterparts...with the risk of not reslabbing (for whatever reason) present? Are ABSOLUTE PROTECTIONS ever possible in life...and are they a realistic goal?
Interesting that all of us are happy to see a counterfeit coin auction killed, yet some of us don't like that "ebay agents" exist. ebay requires that reports from the general community be verified, usually by a CWG member.
Makes sense to me. Anyone can report an auction. Shouldn't a trusted expert be consulted? Or should the listing just be killed, or the report ignored?
Lance.
<< <i>
<< <i>From what I understand ebay prohibits CWG members from publicly disclosing their positions. Can anyone imagine reasons why this is so?
Lance. >>
To avoid corruption of the membership through intimidation and bribery.
It isn't uncommon and can be properly managed. In this case it isn't. >>
Yes. I can think of some other very good reasons.
How do we know it isn't properly managed? Because a rogue stepped over the line?
That happens in business and gov't. How it is dealt with is something we're not privy to.
Lance.
It's one thing to set up in the market. It is quite another to be "selectively targeted" for reasons that may or may not have validity.
Who's watching who ? That's the question. Why aren't the sellers involved in this process ?
That's great...and which expert or experts is/are trusted to kill an auction involving a PCGS/NGC slab?
Mark my words...in the not-too-distant future I'm seeing an eBay policy that will treat all earlier generation slabs are "unverified" and only the latest models will be listable without extensive explanation/qualification. And then everybody here will really be hopping mad!
<< <i><<Shouldn't a trusted expert be consulted? >>
That's great...and which expert or experts is/are trusted to kill an auction involving a PCGS/NGC slab?
Mark my words...in the not-too-distant future I'm seeing an eBay policy that will treat all earlier generation slabs are "unverified" and only the latest models will be listable without extensive explanation/qualification. And then everybody here will really be hopping mad! >>
Can I please get a time frame on not so distant future?
<< <i>It is correct that there are CWG members here. At least that was true in Mar 2010 when I was told this by DW. Three or four members, to be correct.
Interesting that all of us are happy to see a counterfeit coin auction killed, yet some of us don't like that "ebay agents" exist. ebay requires that reports from the general community be verified, usually by a CWG member.
Makes sense to me. Anyone can report an auction. Shouldn't a trusted expert be consulted? Or should the listing just be killed, or the report ignored?
Lance. >>
Its not their existance or even their presence on this site that bothers me, this instance that has come to light signals a change in the groups purpose it would appear. Having this group look at reported auctions and kill obvious counterfits and improper auctions is not the issue. What is an issue is that the seller has no recourse, he has been told that his coins are altered when these CWG "experts" have not examined these items in hand while a major TPG has and declaired them good to go. Everyone makes mistakes(including the individuals that make up the CWG) so telling the seller sorry but if you list these coins your banned because a watchdog group has deemed you a risk is a dangerous direction.
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
It makes me wonder why I don't just sell everything and buy some new fishing gear and pursue my other hobby... one not so subject to greed and corruption.
On the ebay committee thing... I guess if their motives are pure I'm ok with it. Hopefully they are...
<< <i>
<< <i>It is correct that there are CWG members here. At least that was true in Mar 2010 when I was told this by DW. Three or four members, to be correct.
Interesting that all of us are happy to see a counterfeit coin auction killed, yet some of us don't like that "ebay agents" exist. ebay requires that reports from the general community be verified, usually by a CWG member.
Makes sense to me. Anyone can report an auction. Shouldn't a trusted expert be consulted? Or should the listing just be killed, or the report ignored?
Lance. >>
Its not their existance or even their presence on this site that bothers me, this instance that has come to light signals a change in the groups purpose it would appear. Having this group look at reported auctions and kill obvious counterfits and improper auctions is not the issue. What is an issue is that the seller has no recourse, he has been told that his coins are altered when these CWG "experts" have not examined these items in hand while a major TPG has and declaired them good to go. Everyone makes mistakes(including the individuals that make up the CWG) so telling the seller sorry but if you list these coins your banned because a watchdog group has deemed you a risk is a dangerous direction. >>
I agree, except that this one instance signals a change in the group's purpose.
I choose to believe this was an isolated instance, an error in the process, and not a nefarious change in policy.
If we suddenly see many more instances of this then there is reason for concern. And I truly believe PCGS/NGC will have something strong to say about it.
Wild-eyed predictions of doom are just silly.
Lance.
All your older RD slabs...that now look kinda RB when photographed...well tough nuggies...the Committe might decide that "In the name of Buyer/Industry/Hobby/eBay Liability/Paypals Quarterly Revenue Number Protection", you should get them reslabbed and see how the dice fall the second time around
And, at this juncture, I'm not really stretching where I think we're all headed.
And PS...how are all those former ANACS slabs re-selling these days?