<< <i>Six or seven years ago, when I got back in to this hobby I loved as a kid I first had to learn about "slabbing" , "TPG's", grading by numbers, etc. Then I found out about "coin doctoring", counterfeits, lasering, thumbing, added mm's, removed mm's, whizzing, puttied coins, and on and on. Then came along CAC to try to help... and now another committee to stand in judgment... How many layers of protection will there be 20 years from now?
It makes me wonder why I don't just sell everything and buy some new fishing gear and pursue my other hobby... one not so subject to greed and corruption.
>>
Don't take the bait and get lured in to some other hobby. Once you get hooked, unless you become knowledgeable, you'll just be another fish. Remember, as the Bible says, "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" and the rod had better be made of graphite or reinforced carbon and that comes at a price. Just keep in mind that I'm not reeling you in with false promises nor trolling this thread.
Forum AdministratorPSA & PSA/DNA ForumModerator@collectors.com | p 800.325.1121 | PSAcard.com
I think people should get a life. Spending your free time as an unpaid policeman for Ebay is pathetic. (It's much different than just randomly coming across a bogus listing and reporting it, which I don't have any problem with).
"Men who had never shown any ability to make or increase fortunes for themselves abounded in brilliant plans for creating and increasing wealth for the country at large." Fiat Money Inflation in France, Andrew Dickson White (1912)
There's one thing struck deeper than paranoia, and that is an ultra high relief gold piece from the U.S. Mint. Would one of you agents let me know when you see one cheap.
<< <i>I think people should get a life. Spending your free time as an unpaid policeman for Ebay is pathetic. (It's much different than just randomly coming across a bogus listing and reporting it, which I don't have any problem with). >>
What makes you think they do anything more than just that? Lance.
<< <i>Don't take the bait and get lured in to some other hobby. Once you get hooked, unless you become knowledgeable, you'll just be another fish. Remember, as the Bible says, "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" and the rod had better be made of graphite or reinforced carbon and that comes at a price. Just keep in mind that I'm not reeling you in with false promises nor trolling this thread. >>
Jeeez where was this advice before I got involved in other hobbies
The listing they pulled was a 2$ coin with a 250$ buy now price on it . Buy nows sell in minutes sometimes if the seller sets the hook well.
the listing was probably pulled because the price was offensive not the coin. View some of the raw coins in the sellers completed listings and maybe some cheerleaders will set their pom poms down.
<< <i>There's one thing struck deeper than paranoia, and that is an ultra high relief gold piece from the U.S. Mint. Would one of you agents let me know when you see one cheap. >>
<<FS: ***AWESOME MERCS on eBay ending on 04/29/12** >>
I'm sorry, but the Committee to Reject Ebay Postings (CREEP) deems your use of the word "awesome" to not be in compliance with today's unpublished listing policies...therefore we're taking them down. Any attempt to relist your not awesome in our opinion coins will cause us to terminate your account, kill your dog, and tar and feather you at the next major ANA gathering!
Signed CREEP
PS...Thank you for your continued use of eBay...Where Everyday is a Holiday!
<<The listing they pulled was a 2$ coin with a 250$ buy now price on it . Buy nows sell in minutes sometimes if the seller sets the hook well. >>
I'm sitting less than 5 feet from an unopened FS eligible 25th Anniversary box containing 5 SAE sets...if I suddenly felt like selling them with a BIN set at $25,000...the crime would be...what exactly?
And once again...if there is a published policy re pricing limits/issues...where is it?
<< <i>Calling them ebay informants/agents is very misleading. They volunteer to do this, they are not paid. They do it to try and make ebay a better place by adding some knowledge.
I don't think it is fair to attempt to disparage the entire group based on one decision that came public. They likely end many auctions a day of fake coins and slabs for outweighing the other isolated incident. >>
bob
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
Back when your listing fee depended on the starting price there was a lot less swinging for the fences so to speak. With free auction listings or capped at 50 cents fees for buy nows you can plop a lot of stinky cowflaps out there with little impact on your wallet.
Well, with the things I do I have no problem with things like this. I...truly know there are watch groups on my blocks. I shoot straight, if sometimes from the hip (I do not mean to imply at all that anyone opposed to this does anything differently then I). I do my best and am not concerned. I like to this think that is the reason I have never had any problem or return in 12 years or whatever - check - once, a member in here did not get an item and contacted me after, well, 6 months or so. I did not have the item and could not find it if it ever did bounce back to me. Anyway, a full refund was offered and he would only take 50%. It was issued. Other than that, I am OK. People have agendas, people play police. It doesn't change anything I am doing or how I do it. My .02 cents.
Pricing policy ??? Excuse me Mr e-bay seller........we believe your price is just too damn high......either re-price or we will junk your listing......if this happens more that 3 times in a calender year you will loose your "power screwer" status........OH excuse me Mr seller we now find your price is tooo F***** low...........and how dare you now offer free shipping and a gift bag of cheetos along with that coin purchase.......Offering free cheetos is against e-bay policy regarding food items........................sorry
<< <i><<This is especially true for coin doctors that try to get doctored coins into our host's slabs. >>
However, in relation to this topic you state that doctored coins are in PCGS plastic. So by extention, you're saying that the coins at the heart of this discussion were doctored. >>
I do not understand how you are reaching that conclusion. Per above, I'm not sure you are actually reading my posts. Please review them again as I've addressed this several times directly already.
<< <i>I knew something was amiss years ago when I got called onto the eBay carpet. Not once, not twice, but several times. Finally the harassment stopped. I started selling beanie babies. >>
Beanies, O man I sold them at the flea market and made a million dollars. How many Trios ya got left?
As for the topic here. eBay don't know squat about coins and if there are some brave hearted people that take upon themselves to try and help police the coin auctions then go for it. I can't see one watcher saying there is a problem with a coin and ends the auction, eBay would be dumber that a box of rocks to let that happen. It's called a Group which I think means several people so I would think that it takes more than one and probably many to agree to remove an item. It could be board members, dealers or perhaps TPGs employees but who ever it is I hope and advise that eBay be sure that these people have the knowledge to attain the right decision about these auctions. MOO
<<Per above, I'm not sure you are actually reading my posts. Please review them again as I've addressed this several times directly already>>
I've read everything quite closely...and at the heart of this matter is the fact that a decision was made by persons unknown, but acting on behalf of eBay, to trump [as best as can be seen from only photos] a validly slabbed coin in an unmolested PCGS slab.
What seems to be in dispute is the level of gall/right to do anything they want because it's their sandbox...on the part of eBay and their minions.
And while I'm thinking about it...assuming this committee (I'll call it CREEP because I feel like it) is doing all of this in their free time, I'm also assuming that their service to eBay isn't being compensated in some other form, such as lower listing/Paypal fees. Since full disclose is so hard to determine when dealing with a secret club, the question must be asked.
<< <i>Six or seven years ago, when I got back in to this hobby I loved as a kid I first had to learn about "slabbing" , "TPG's", grading by numbers, etc. Then I found out about "coin doctoring", counterfeits, lasering, thumbing, added mm's, removed mm's, whizzing, puttied coins, and on and on. Then came along CAC to try to help... and now another committee to stand in judgment... How many layers of protection will there be 20 years from now?
It makes me wonder why I don't just sell everything and buy some new fishing gear and pursue my other hobby... one not so subject to greed and corruption.
>>
Don't take the bait and get lured in to some other hobby. Once you get hooked, unless you become knowledgeable, you'll just be another fish. Remember, as the Bible says, "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" and the rod had better be made of graphite or reinforced carbon and that comes at a price. Just keep in mind that I'm not reeling you in with false promises nor trolling this thread. >>
Yeah, if you leave coins and go after another hobby...be careful...you might get stuck with Koi....I hear them lil buggers is expensive
Joe Mccarthy would give this thread two thumbs up. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>What seems to be in dispute is the level of gall/right to do anything they want because it's their sandbox...on the part of eBay and their minions. >>
Oh...I thought the dispute was over whether this action was an accident or due to new powers granted CWG members and a policy change at ebay. Lance.
Well considering that a few years ago nobody had anywhere to go with obvious counterfeits or any other problem coins on eBay. And since I have seen it a few times that slabbed coins are only about 3% of the coins listed on eBay. And the fact that even members like tradedollarnut and myself have asked for the members to band together to nuke problem listing in the past. I asked for help last week with some slabbed PCGS counterfeit Morgan listings and he asked yesterday about a Trade dollar fake.
I'll go out on a limb and say I will accept the possibly that they errored on those listings or even let bias come to a head. That I accept and applaud the effort to fix the problems on eBay and hope that the system can be made more transparent and open to the membership here and there.
BTW is just did a check on eBay and there are currently 43,533 items listed in US Coins with PCGS in the title. if the mistakes of the three items represents the failure rate of .00000689 I feel they are OK with what happening.
<<Joe Mccarthy would give this thread two thumbs up.>>
So then...if the IRS formed a "Paying Every Dime in Taxes on Every Coin Sold Committee"...and some around here volunteered to join it...and report back on any chit-chat they picked up here...everyone would be A-OK with that too?
I think not.
This all strikes me as a very incestous and slippery melding of worlds that should be kept at arms length.
And once again, this removes all responsibility on behalf of the buyer and places it soley on the seller...and now the TPGs...to start defending their past actions. And all with no option for recourse.
<<It is astounding to see the amount of paranoia and conspiracy expressed in this thread... not to mention the number of edited posts. >>
Actually, I found it even more astouding to see many of those who are usually raising the paranoia flag the highest and screaming loudest to "Keep your hands off my [fill in the blank]...suddenly doing a complete 180 and saying that eBay's new Big Brother committee is your friend...because we need to be protected...from toned coins...housed in unaltered PCGS (and probably NGC) slabs.
...or is it now the general consensus that TPG slabbing is just another money-generating scheme that really doesn't actually add much in the way of actual buyer security? And if so, that would be a true watershed moment around here.
<< <i> do not think this is a problem. Although, I must say, in reference to tarnish.... when it is well done, no expert can detect it - plus, there are NT coins that appear AT... and they are not. It is, in many cases, an area that is highly judgmental and in no way structured science. Cheers, RickO >>
I am in total agreement. It's one thing to report obvious counterfeits. But, reporting PCGS and NGC graded coins based upon yet another group's opinion? That's a slippery slope. I'd be pretty pissed if the so-called eBay coin police reported my PCGS or NGC coin and got it pulled based solely on my below-par photography skills.
<< <i>Six or seven years ago, when I got back in to this hobby I loved as a kid I first had to learn about "slabbing" , "TPG's", grading by numbers, etc. Then I found out about "coin doctoring", counterfeits, lasering, thumbing, added mm's, removed mm's, whizzing, puttied coins, and on and on. Then came along CAC to try to help... and now another committee to stand in judgment... How many layers of protection will there be 20 years from now?
It makes me wonder why I don't just sell everything and buy some new fishing gear and pursue my other hobby... one not so subject to greed and corruption.
>>
Don't take the bait and get lured in to some other hobby. Once you get hooked, unless you become knowledgeable, you'll just be another fish. Remember, as the Bible says, "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" and the rod had better be made of graphite or reinforced carbon and that comes at a price. Just keep in mind that I'm not reeling you in with false promises nor trolling this thread. >>
Yeah, if you leave coins and go after another hobby...be careful...you might get stuck with Koi....I hear them lil buggers is expensive >>
My written reply to Smotis will have to be at another forum 'cause he'd have to bam me here
<<It is astounding to see the amount of paranoia and conspiracy expressed in this thread>>
Paranoid? Yes...I had a very disturbing nightmare last night where I imagined that an anonymous group working on behalf of eBay, had infiltrated this forum and had been given the authority to unilaterally trump decisions made by PCGS/NGC...with potentially damaging financial implications for many of us down the road.
And then I woke up and realized it wasn't a dream! That's not being "paranoid"...that's being "prescient".
And as for edited posts...that's to eliminate my own typos...as if that somehow matters to anyone.
I think getting a handle on the coin doctoring situation in the hobby is a good thing. This is especially true for coin doctors that try to get doctored coins into our host's slabs. >>
Yes, then let the people capable and qualified to do it ie. the grading companies handle it. Pulling auctions without difinitive proof that a coin has been doctored is more of a brownshirt tactic and does nothing to prevent coin doctoring. Especially when the same site has thousands of cleaned and AT raw coins selling every day without mention in the auction.
Let's sort out the facts here, because there was a lot misinformation being thrown about in the other thread.
Fact 1. 3 South African coins in PCGS holders were pulled and claimed as AT'd by an annonymous person or persons.
Fact 2. There has yet to be one shred of proof shown that these 3 coins were AT'd.
Fact 3. A poster showed the original mint packaging that these 3 coins were stored in and has knowledge that this ORIGINAL mint packaging is known for toning the side of the coin that was in contact with the ORIGINAL mint packaging.
Fact 4. 3 PCGS graders saw these coins in person and all 3 agreed that the coins were acceptable.
Fact 5. The person or persons responsible for having these auctions pulled based their opinion solely on a two dimential photograph and have never seen the coins in person.
Every collector would like to see coin doctoring come to an end, but to sit here and claim that somehow pulling these 3 legitimately graded coins is helping to stem coin doctoring is a joke.
Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
<< <i>Informants don't get to actually make arrests.
I'll admit, I report what I think are counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs. Should ebay nuke them if they agree? By all means. >>
Related to this subject,and because I respect your opinion,I'd like to ask the following question: We have been reading about the recent Trade Dollar that was exposed on this forum yesterday,and it was the same seller that was selling some Morgan PCGS graded MS67s,with and without CAC stickers, that I was considering buying.Within the bounds of whatever proper discretion that your comfortable with,should I be particularly more cautious here?I have never bought or,to my knowledge,ever seen in person a counterfeit or mislabeled PCGS slab.
<< <i>It is astounding to see the amount of paranoia and conspiracy expressed in this thread... not to mention the number of edited posts. >>
It is astounding.
If you have ever reported a listing, you are as much a member of the CCW as the person that reported the listing that started all this.
Bottom line. >>
I suppose that is totally possible since this forum is not adverse to banding together to report the obvious which, hopefully, amounts to multiple reports of the same thing. Possibly a hundred?
But in the case of the listing that started this series of threads, it was a single individual who obviously had targeted the seller and, more than likely, was reading the first thread since, when the seller re-listed the items, as advised by the original thread, the new listings were taken down almost immediately followed by an email from the fella that took em down! (Lapidary2). Of course that email alkso communicated that unless the seller stated in the listing that he believed the coins were AT (which he did not) that he'd get NARU'ed if he listed them again.
This is a one-on-one exchange based upon the "opinion" of ONE eBay cop which is more than likely based upon the fact that the seller only sells toned coins and as such, he must be toning them himself. All opinions which are not based in fact and since the penalty of NOT going along with this person's opinion is forfeiture of your eBay selling priviledges, it just does not pass the smell test.
If listings are pulled on eBay because of a group consensus (such as forum reports) thats one thing, but pulling the listing based upon ONE persons opinion, is something completely different.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Re-listing an item after a warning just seems silly without either (a) making the recommended adjustments or (b) getting approval for not making the recommended adjustments. What do you expect if someone gives you a warning, you ignore it, and then do the same exact thing again.
And how do we know it was just one person? It's been stated that "one person can do nothing. Several people have to agree to end a listing."
Actually, Stairman, last week somebody wearing a tin hat would have had to dig pretty deep to IMAGINE this now real world scenario...so instead of worrying about my tin hat, you should go get a walking stick and a dog...or maybe just open your eyes.
But then again, maybe I should just defer to your overwhelming history on this board...totaling all of 24 posts over a year...and strangely all on this particular topic. Such strong feelings suddenly welling up after such a long silence...interesting.
If eBay determines your PCGS graded coins are not market acceptable at the grade listed on the holder, it seems you mayhave some recourse under the PCGS grading guarantee, correct???
<< <i><<Can I please get a time frame on not so distant future? >>
Let's first imagine that we can roll the calendar just a few months to 1/1/2012 and I posted the following two headlines:
1. "ebay decertifies ANACS Slabs for Resale" 2. "Anonymous eBay Group Empowered to Overule PCGS/NGC Grading Decisions"
Which of of these actions would have seemed somewhat unlikely or elicited a "You're nuts!" a mere 4 months ago?
So my answer to you is...I'll give it a year. >>
Well item #1 will be corrected and as many have said an online cert verification is important and that will get ANACS back in the game. I was not surprised to see ANACS being taken off ebay.
#2 would have seemed nuts BECAUSE IT WAS ALREADY IN PLACE!
I think getting a handle on the coin doctoring situation in the hobby is a good thing. This is especially true for coin doctors that try to get doctored coins into our host's slabs. >>
Yes, then let the people capable and qualified to do it ie. the grading companies handle it. Pulling auctions without difinitive proof that a coin has been doctored is more of a brownshirt tactic and does nothing to prevent coin doctoring. Especially when the same site has thousands of cleaned and AT raw coins selling every day without mention in the auction.
Let's sort out the facts here, because there was a lot misinformation being thrown about in the other thread.
Fact 1. 3 South African coins in PCGS holders were pulled and claimed as AT'd by an annonymous person or persons.
Fact 2. There has yet to be one shred of proof shown that these 3 coins were AT'd.
Fact 3. A poster showed the original mint packaging that these 3 coins were stored in and has knowledge that this ORIGINAL mint packaging is known for toning the side of the coin that was in contact with the ORIGINAL mint packaging.
Fact 4. 3 PCGS graders saw these coins in person and all 3 agreed that the coins were acceptable.
Fact 5. The person or persons responsible for having these auctions pulled based their opinion solely on a two dimentional photograph and have never seen the coins in person.
Every collector would like to see coin doctoring come to an end, but to sit here and claim that somehow pulling these 3 legitimately graded coins is helping to stem coin doctoring is a joke. >>
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I haven't posted in a very, very long time, and I started not to now because I'm not sure I can add much of substance to what has already been said by one poster or another. There might even be someone that has expressed the exact combination of opinions that I hold. I don't know. Anyway, RichR's original post was just too tempting for me to be able to resist.
And since someone, I forget so badly who, wanted full disclosure, I'll tell you all that I'm not a member of the Group, and to the best of my knowledge I don't know any of its members personally. I am also not privy to the conversations that have gone on elsewhere about either the auction that started all this or about the Group generally. Further, I have never reported an eBay auction.
I believe RichR's original question was whether we find the presence of Group members here scary. I don't, and I don't think anyone else should either. In fact, I would be very surprise if they were not reading this very thread, yea, this very post. Anyone can read these forums. He doesn't have to be a member here to read them. I'd also be very surprised to find out that any of the Group members haven't already been made aware of our discussions about these auctions. Most of them are probably following them. So no, I don't find it scary.
Likewise, I'll just betcha that some of the coin doctors are reading this. I'm not particularly scared about that either.
The best policy is to not post in a public forum stuff you wouldn't want them to know you've said. I guess that could be called self-censorship. I choose to call it self-discipline and restraint.
Now I guess, I'll offer a few opinions related to the underlying issue, i.e. the concept of such a Group. Perhaps I oughtn't, but I don't figure I have anything to lose. I view this Group as mostly redundant insofar as they nuke auctions of PCGS and NGC coins. Coins certified by those TPGs have already been looked at by people who look at hundreds of coins a day. A second group of people re-checking their work from photographs seems to me for the most part a waste of time and an occasional nuisance.
I also think that revealing members of the group would be a good thing. Given the fairly small number of people qualified to do such a job (many of whom might be reasonably well-known within the industry), it would allow individual assessment of the likelihood of conflicts of interest, personal vendettas, or whatever other matters might call their judgment into question. Who knows? There may be none, but one can't begin to even guess unless one knows who they are.
I also offer no opinion about the three coins in question. I will say, however, that it is well-known that things like the blue nickels and blue cents have slipped by in the past. There are also some extremely deceptive counterfeits in the market, and I'd be very surprised to find out that none of those have found their way into top-tier slabs. Mistakes happen. I still don't trust finding those from pictures when several professionals have already examined them in hand.
So I guess to almost all of you I concur in part and dissent in part. (Please don't anyone be upset that I said 'concur.')
<<If eBay determines your PCGS graded coins are not market acceptable at the grade listed on the holder, it seems you mayhave some recourse under the PCGS grading guarantee, correct??? >>
One would assume so...but then again what happens if/when PCGS reiterates their initial determination? Then you're either left holding a paperweight that can't be sold on eBay...or you have to sell it [and probably not realize the full price] to somebody in person. Neither being a great option.
And let's also assume that PCGS & NGC start getting into mre and more he said/she said situations re grading with eBay...are they ready to expend the time and effort to "go to the mat" for you to justify their decision, like your accountant does when the IRS calls?
Some have called this a slippery slope...this is more like a avalanche looking for a hill.
I keep reading that this is just a single incident and to let it go as a mistake, but what about phnatacc's post regarding his PCGS Genuine with UNC details being pulled because the CWG felt it couldn't be Uncirculated? How could they possibly know this with enough reliability to cause an auction to be cancelled with only a photo to go by and after PCGS has held the coin in hand by several graders and determined it is details uncirculated and the CWG nor Ebay not identifying their standards or identities yet allowing PCGS's reputation taking another hit. I'm afraid that the CWG(while probably doing a wonderful job removing tons of really bad stuff, which if so, shouldn't leave them with enough time to worry with an auction that is guaranteed by one of the top 2 Grading companies in the world if not the best. While I even think that two incidents isn't enough to hang the CWG, but it is certainly enough to be suspicious and question the methods and criteria used to make auction cancellations by both the CWG and EBay. JMO Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
<<I keep reading that this is just a single incident and to let it go as a mistake>>
Although I consider even 1 to be 1 too many...this often repeated mantra also bothers me...considering that the entire membership of this forum also represents an exceedingly small fraction of the hobby at large. Therefore, we have no possible way of knowing what the actual numbers of cancelled auctions involving legit slabs might be.
This group has obviously been constituted to do something...so I'm sure they're doing "something" most of the time.
And I'll also ask this...with their reputation now being called into question...will it really be a positive for the rest of us that PCGS and NGC will definitely start looking extra, extra, extra hard at often legit toned coins...and possibly turning thumbs down...just in case. This is going to have a chilling effect...in ways we can't yet determine.
<< <i><<I keep reading that this is just a single incident and to let it go as a mistake>>
Although I consider even 1 to be 1 too many...this often repreated mantra also bothers me...considering that the entire membership of this forum also represents a exceedingly small fraction of the hobby at large. Therefore, we have no possible way of knowing what the actual numbers of cancelled auctions might be. >>
Which also means the number of cancelled auctions outside the forum could just as well be 0.
Comments
<< <i>Six or seven years ago, when I got back in to this hobby I loved as a kid I first had to learn about "slabbing" , "TPG's", grading by numbers, etc. Then I found out about "coin doctoring", counterfeits, lasering, thumbing, added mm's, removed mm's, whizzing, puttied coins, and on and on. Then came along CAC to try to help... and now another committee to stand in judgment... How many layers of protection will there be 20 years from now?
It makes me wonder why I don't just sell everything and buy some new fishing gear and pursue my other hobby... one not so subject to greed and corruption.
>>
Don't take the bait and get lured in to some other hobby. Once you get hooked, unless you become knowledgeable, you'll just be another fish. Remember, as the Bible says, "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" and the rod had better be made of graphite or reinforced carbon and that comes at a price. Just keep in mind that I'm not reeling you in with false promises nor trolling this thread.
Forum AdministratorPSA & PSA/DNA ForumModerator@collectors.com | p 800.325.1121 | PSAcard.com
Would one of you agents let me know when you see one cheap.
<< <i>Go join the CWG. >>
Where do I volunteer? Also,I want to sign up for that trip across the Rubicon (I assume by boat,but what do I know).
<< <i>I think people should get a life. Spending your free time as an unpaid policeman for Ebay is pathetic. (It's much different than just randomly coming across a bogus listing and reporting it, which I don't have any problem with). >>
What makes you think they do anything more than just that?
Lance.
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
Let's first imagine that we can roll the calendar just a few months to 1/1/2012 and I posted the following two headlines:
1. "ebay decertifies ANACS Slabs for Resale"
2. "Anonymous eBay Group Empowered to Overule PCGS/NGC Grading Decisions"
Which of of these actions would have seemed somewhat unlikely or elicited a "You're nuts!" a mere 4 months ago?
So my answer to you is...I'll give it a year.
<< <i>Don't take the bait and get lured in to some other hobby. Once you get hooked, unless you become knowledgeable, you'll just be another fish. Remember, as the Bible says, "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" and the rod had better be made of graphite or reinforced carbon and that comes at a price. Just keep in mind that I'm not reeling you in with false promises nor trolling this thread. >>
Jeeez where was this advice before I got involved in other hobbies
My Collection of Old Holders
Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
The listing they pulled was a 2$ coin with a 250$ buy now price on it . Buy nows sell in minutes sometimes if the seller sets the hook well.
the listing was probably pulled because the price was offensive not the coin. View some of the raw coins in the sellers completed listings and maybe some cheerleaders will set their pom poms down.
<< <i>There's one thing struck deeper than paranoia, and that is an ultra high relief gold piece from the U.S. Mint.
Would one of you agents let me know when you see one cheap.
And another thing! Is your name really Mr.Pflug?
I'm sorry, but the Committee to Reject Ebay Postings (CREEP) deems your use of the word "awesome" to not be in compliance with today's unpublished listing policies...therefore we're taking them down. Any attempt to relist your not awesome in our opinion coins will cause us to terminate your account, kill your dog, and tar and feather you at the next major ANA gathering!
Signed CREEP
PS...Thank you for your continued use of eBay...Where Everyday is a Holiday!
I'm sitting less than 5 feet from an unopened FS eligible 25th Anniversary box containing 5 SAE sets...if I suddenly felt like selling them with a BIN set at $25,000...the crime would be...what exactly?
And once again...if there is a published policy re pricing limits/issues...where is it?
Edited for disclosure I am on NO committees.....
<< <i>Calling them ebay informants/agents is very misleading. They volunteer to do this, they are not paid. They do it to try and make ebay a better place by adding some knowledge.
I don't think it is fair to attempt to disparage the entire group based on one decision that came public. They likely end many auctions a day of fake coins and slabs for outweighing the other isolated incident. >>
bob
I dont have a problem price whatever you want.
Back when your listing fee depended on the starting price there was a lot less swinging for the fences so to speak. With free auction listings or capped at 50 cents fees for buy nows you can plop a lot of stinky cowflaps out there with little impact on your wallet.
Well, with the things I do I have no problem with things like this. I...truly know there are watch groups on my blocks. I shoot straight, if sometimes from the hip (I do not mean to imply at all that anyone opposed to this does anything differently then I). I do my best and am not concerned. I like to this think that is the reason I have never had any problem or return in 12 years or whatever - check - once, a member in here did not get an item and contacted me after, well, 6 months or so. I did not have the item and could not find it if it ever did bounce back to me. Anyway, a full refund was offered and he would only take 50%. It was issued. Other than that, I am OK. People have agendas, people play police. It doesn't change anything I am doing or how I do it. My .02 cents.
Best wishes,
Eric
Oh....the humanity!
<< <i>
<< <i><<This is especially true for coin doctors that try to get doctored coins into our host's slabs. >>
However, in relation to this topic you state that doctored coins are in PCGS plastic. So by extention, you're saying that the coins at the heart of this discussion were doctored. >>
I do not understand how you are reaching that conclusion. Per above, I'm not sure you are actually reading my posts. Please review them again as I've addressed this several times directly already.
<< <i>I knew something was amiss years ago when I got called onto the eBay carpet. Not once, not twice, but several times. Finally the harassment stopped. I started selling beanie babies. >>
Beanies, O man I sold them at the flea market and made a million dollars. How many Trios ya got left?
As for the topic here. eBay don't know squat about coins and if there are some brave hearted people that
take upon themselves to try and help police the coin auctions then go for it. I can't see one watcher saying there
is a problem with a coin and ends the auction, eBay would be dumber that a box of rocks to let that happen.
It's called a Group which I think means several people so I would think that it takes more than one and probably
many to agree to remove an item. It could be board members, dealers or perhaps TPGs employees but who
ever it is I hope and advise that eBay be sure that these people have the knowledge to attain the right decision
about these auctions. MOO
I've read everything quite closely...and at the heart of this matter is the fact that a decision was made by persons unknown, but acting on behalf of eBay, to trump [as best as can be seen from only photos] a validly slabbed coin in an unmolested PCGS slab.
What seems to be in dispute is the level of gall/right to do anything they want because it's their sandbox...on the part of eBay and their minions.
And while I'm thinking about it...assuming this committee (I'll call it CREEP because I feel like it) is doing all of this in their free time, I'm also assuming that their service to eBay isn't being compensated in some other form, such as lower listing/Paypal fees. Since full disclose is so hard to determine when dealing with a secret club, the question must be asked.
<< <i>
<< <i>Per above, I'm not sure you are actually reading my posts. Please review them again as I've addressed this several times directly already >>
I've read everything quite closely... >>
Then I hope you won't keep jumping to false conclusions on topics I have already addressed, sometimes several times.
<< <i>
<< <i>Six or seven years ago, when I got back in to this hobby I loved as a kid I first had to learn about "slabbing" , "TPG's", grading by numbers, etc. Then I found out about "coin doctoring", counterfeits, lasering, thumbing, added mm's, removed mm's, whizzing, puttied coins, and on and on. Then came along CAC to try to help... and now another committee to stand in judgment... How many layers of protection will there be 20 years from now?
It makes me wonder why I don't just sell everything and buy some new fishing gear and pursue my other hobby... one not so subject to greed and corruption.
>>
Don't take the bait and get lured in to some other hobby. Once you get hooked, unless you become knowledgeable, you'll just be another fish. Remember, as the Bible says, "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" and the rod had better be made of graphite or reinforced carbon and that comes at a price. Just keep in mind that I'm not reeling you in with false promises nor trolling this thread. >>
Yeah, if you leave coins and go after another hobby...be careful...you might get stuck with Koi....I hear them lil buggers is expensive
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>What seems to be in dispute is the level of gall/right to do anything they want because it's their sandbox...on the part of eBay and their minions. >>
Oh...I thought the dispute was over whether this action was an accident or due to new powers granted CWG members and a policy change at ebay.
Lance.
Well considering that a few years ago nobody had anywhere to go with obvious counterfeits or any other problem coins on eBay. And since I have seen it a few times that slabbed coins are only about 3% of the coins listed on eBay. And the fact that even members like tradedollarnut and myself have asked for the members to band together to nuke problem listing in the past.
I asked for help last week with some slabbed PCGS counterfeit Morgan listings and he asked yesterday about a Trade dollar fake.
I'll go out on a limb and say I will accept the possibly that they errored on those listings or even let bias come to a head. That I accept and applaud the effort to fix the problems on eBay and hope that the system can be made more transparent and open to the membership here and there.
BTW is just did a check on eBay and there are currently 43,533 items listed in US Coins with PCGS in the title. if the mistakes of the three items represents the failure rate of .00000689 I feel they are OK with what happening.
So then...if the IRS formed a "Paying Every Dime in Taxes on Every Coin Sold Committee"...and some around here volunteered to join it...and report back on any chit-chat they picked up here...everyone would be A-OK with that too?
I think not.
This all strikes me as a very incestous and slippery melding of worlds that should be kept at arms length.
And once again, this removes all responsibility on behalf of the buyer and places it soley on the seller...and now the TPGs...to start defending their past actions. And all with no option for recourse.
Actually, I found it even more astouding to see many of those who are usually raising the paranoia flag the highest and screaming loudest to "Keep your hands off my [fill in the blank]...suddenly doing a complete 180 and saying that eBay's new Big Brother committee is your friend...because we need to be protected...from toned coins...housed in unaltered PCGS (and probably NGC) slabs.
...or is it now the general consensus that TPG slabbing is just another money-generating scheme that really doesn't actually add much in the way of actual buyer security? And if so, that would be a true watershed moment around here.
<< <i>so last month ANACS slabs are essentially blackballed. >>
I, for one, am looking forward to looking up my ANACS coins on their online cert verification service when it comes out.
My thanks to eBay for encouraging ANACS to offer this service.
I'll admit, I report what I think are counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs. Should ebay nuke them if they agree? By all means.
The government is incapable of ever managing the economy. That is why communism collapsed. It is now socialism’s turn - Martin Armstrong
<< <i> do not think this is a problem. Although, I must say, in reference to tarnish.... when it is well done, no expert can detect it - plus, there are NT coins that appear AT... and they are not. It is, in many cases, an area that is highly judgmental and in no way structured science. Cheers, RickO >>
I am in total agreement. It's one thing to report obvious counterfeits. But, reporting PCGS and NGC graded coins based upon yet another group's opinion? That's a slippery slope. I'd be pretty pissed if the so-called eBay coin police reported my PCGS or NGC coin and got it pulled based solely on my below-par photography skills.
Cheers,
Bob
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Six or seven years ago, when I got back in to this hobby I loved as a kid I first had to learn about "slabbing" , "TPG's", grading by numbers, etc. Then I found out about "coin doctoring", counterfeits, lasering, thumbing, added mm's, removed mm's, whizzing, puttied coins, and on and on. Then came along CAC to try to help... and now another committee to stand in judgment... How many layers of protection will there be 20 years from now?
It makes me wonder why I don't just sell everything and buy some new fishing gear and pursue my other hobby... one not so subject to greed and corruption.
>>
Don't take the bait and get lured in to some other hobby. Once you get hooked, unless you become knowledgeable, you'll just be another fish. Remember, as the Bible says, "thy rod and thy staff they comfort me" and the rod had better be made of graphite or reinforced carbon and that comes at a price. Just keep in mind that I'm not reeling you in with false promises nor trolling this thread. >>
Yeah, if you leave coins and go after another hobby...be careful...you might get stuck with Koi....I hear them lil buggers is expensive
My written reply to Smotis will have to be at another forum 'cause he'd have to bam me here
<< <i>It is astounding to see the amount of paranoia and conspiracy expressed in this thread... not to mention the number of edited posts. >>
It is astounding.
If you have ever reported a listing, you are as much a member of the CCW as the person that reported the listing that started all this.
Bottom line.
Paranoid? Yes...I had a very disturbing nightmare last night where I imagined that an anonymous group working on behalf of eBay, had infiltrated this forum and had been given the authority to unilaterally trump decisions made by PCGS/NGC...with potentially damaging financial implications for many of us down the road.
And then I woke up and realized it wasn't a dream! That's not being "paranoid"...that's being "prescient".
And as for edited posts...that's to eliminate my own typos...as if that somehow matters to anyone.
That's text book paranoia!
No one infiltrated your open to the whole world board.
I'm pretty sure some avid collectors that were already posting on this board, and other boards, were asked to give their oipinions on fakes by ebay.
Me thinks your tin-foil hat's too tight.
<< <i>Are there coin doctors in our midst?
I think getting a handle on the coin doctoring situation in the hobby is a good thing. This is especially true for coin doctors that try to get doctored coins into our host's slabs. >>
Yes, then let the people capable and qualified to do it ie. the grading companies handle it. Pulling auctions without difinitive proof that a coin has been doctored is more of a brownshirt tactic and does nothing to prevent coin doctoring. Especially when the same site has thousands of cleaned and AT raw coins selling every day without mention in the auction.
Let's sort out the facts here, because there was a lot misinformation being thrown about in the other thread.
Fact 1. 3 South African coins in PCGS holders were pulled and claimed as AT'd by an annonymous person or persons.
Fact 2. There has yet to be one shred of proof shown that these 3 coins were AT'd.
Fact 3. A poster showed the original mint packaging that these 3 coins were stored in and has knowledge that this ORIGINAL mint packaging is known for toning the side of the coin that was in contact
with the ORIGINAL mint packaging.
Fact 4. 3 PCGS graders saw these coins in person and all 3 agreed that the coins were acceptable.
Fact 5. The person or persons responsible for having these auctions pulled based their opinion solely on a two dimential photograph and have never seen the coins in person.
Every collector would like to see coin doctoring come to an end, but to sit here and claim that somehow pulling these 3 legitimately graded coins is helping to stem coin doctoring is a joke.
<< <i>Informants don't get to actually make arrests.
I'll admit, I report what I think are counterfeit coins in counterfeit slabs. Should ebay nuke them if they agree? By all means. >>
Related to this subject,and because I respect your opinion,I'd like to ask the following question:
We have been reading about the recent Trade Dollar that was exposed on this forum yesterday,and it was the same seller that was selling some Morgan PCGS graded MS67s,with and without CAC stickers, that I was considering buying.Within the bounds of whatever proper discretion that your comfortable with,should I be particularly more cautious here?I have never bought or,to my knowledge,ever seen in person a counterfeit or mislabeled PCGS slab.
<< <i>
<< <i>It is astounding to see the amount of paranoia and conspiracy expressed in this thread... not to mention the number of edited posts. >>
It is astounding.
If you have ever reported a listing, you are as much a member of the CCW as the person that reported the listing that started all this.
Bottom line. >>
I suppose that is totally possible since this forum is not adverse to banding together to report the obvious which, hopefully, amounts to multiple reports of the same thing. Possibly a hundred?
But in the case of the listing that started this series of threads, it was a single individual who obviously had targeted the seller and, more than likely, was reading the first thread since, when the seller re-listed the items, as advised by the original thread, the new listings were taken down almost immediately followed by an email from the fella that took em down! (Lapidary2). Of course that email alkso communicated that unless the seller stated in the listing that he believed the coins were AT (which he did not) that he'd get NARU'ed if he listed them again.
This is a one-on-one exchange based upon the "opinion" of ONE eBay cop which is more than likely based upon the fact that the seller only sells toned coins and as such, he must be toning them himself. All opinions which are not based in fact and since the penalty of NOT going along with this person's opinion is forfeiture of your eBay selling priviledges, it just does not pass the smell test.
If listings are pulled on eBay because of a group consensus (such as forum reports) thats one thing, but pulling the listing based upon ONE persons opinion, is something completely different.
The name is LEE!
And how do we know it was just one person? It's been stated that "one person can do nothing. Several people have to agree to end a listing."
Actually, Stairman, last week somebody wearing a tin hat would have had to dig pretty deep to IMAGINE this now real world scenario...so instead of worrying about my tin hat, you should go get a walking stick and a dog...or maybe just open your eyes.
But then again, maybe I should just defer to your overwhelming history on this board...totaling all of 24 posts over a year...and strangely all on this particular topic. Such strong feelings suddenly welling up after such a long silence...interesting.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i><<Can I please get a time frame on not so distant future? >>
Let's first imagine that we can roll the calendar just a few months to 1/1/2012 and I posted the following two headlines:
1. "ebay decertifies ANACS Slabs for Resale"
2. "Anonymous eBay Group Empowered to Overule PCGS/NGC Grading Decisions"
Which of of these actions would have seemed somewhat unlikely or elicited a "You're nuts!" a mere 4 months ago?
So my answer to you is...I'll give it a year. >>
Well item #1 will be corrected and as many have said an online cert verification is important and that will get ANACS back in the game. I was not surprised to see ANACS being taken off ebay.
#2 would have seemed nuts BECAUSE IT WAS ALREADY IN PLACE!
I should've said "extreme" textbook paranoia.
I quoted someone else, and you talk about my "strong feelings suddenly welling up"
Why do you insist on making this about me?
Paranoia
Hell, i'd a been gone by now if you didn't keep poking me with a stick.
Now, I think I'll hang out and watch you try to circle the computers.
<< <i>
<< <i>Are there coin doctors in our midst?
I think getting a handle on the coin doctoring situation in the hobby is a good thing. This is especially true for coin doctors that try to get doctored coins into our host's slabs. >>
Yes, then let the people capable and qualified to do it ie. the grading companies handle it. Pulling auctions without difinitive proof that a coin has been doctored is more of a brownshirt tactic and does nothing to prevent coin doctoring. Especially when the same site has thousands of cleaned and AT raw coins selling every day without mention in the auction.
Let's sort out the facts here, because there was a lot misinformation being thrown about in the other thread.
Fact 1. 3 South African coins in PCGS holders were pulled and claimed as AT'd by an annonymous person or persons.
Fact 2. There has yet to be one shred of proof shown that these 3 coins were AT'd.
Fact 3. A poster showed the original mint packaging that these 3 coins were stored in and has knowledge that this ORIGINAL mint packaging is known for toning the side of the coin that was in contact
with the ORIGINAL mint packaging.
Fact 4. 3 PCGS graders saw these coins in person and all 3 agreed that the coins were acceptable.
Fact 5. The person or persons responsible for having these auctions pulled based their opinion solely on a two dimentional photograph and have never seen the coins in person.
Every collector would like to see coin doctoring come to an end, but to sit here and claim that somehow pulling these 3 legitimately graded coins is helping to stem coin doctoring is a joke. >>
The name is LEE!
I haven't posted in a very, very long time, and I started not to now because I'm not sure I can add much of substance to what has already been said by one poster or another. There might even be someone that has expressed the exact combination of opinions that I hold. I don't know. Anyway, RichR's original post was just too tempting for me to be able to resist.
And since someone, I forget so badly who, wanted full disclosure, I'll tell you all that I'm not a member of the Group, and to the best of my knowledge I don't know any of its members personally. I am also not privy to the conversations that have gone on elsewhere about either the auction that started all this or about the Group generally. Further, I have never reported an eBay auction.
I believe RichR's original question was whether we find the presence of Group members here scary. I don't, and I don't think anyone else should either. In fact, I would be very surprise if they were not reading this very thread, yea, this very post. Anyone can read these forums. He doesn't have to be a member here to read them. I'd also be very surprised to find out that any of the Group members haven't already been made aware of our discussions about these auctions. Most of them are probably following them. So no, I don't find it scary.
Likewise, I'll just betcha that some of the coin doctors are reading this. I'm not particularly scared about that either.
The best policy is to not post in a public forum stuff you wouldn't want them to know you've said. I guess that could be called self-censorship. I choose to call it self-discipline and restraint.
Now I guess, I'll offer a few opinions related to the underlying issue, i.e. the concept of such a Group. Perhaps I oughtn't, but I don't figure I have anything to lose. I view this Group as mostly redundant insofar as they nuke auctions of PCGS and NGC coins. Coins certified by those TPGs have already been looked at by people who look at hundreds of coins a day. A second group of people re-checking their work from photographs seems to me for the most part a waste of time and an occasional nuisance.
I also think that revealing members of the group would be a good thing. Given the fairly small number of people qualified to do such a job (many of whom might be reasonably well-known within the industry), it would allow individual assessment of the likelihood of conflicts of interest, personal vendettas, or whatever other matters might call their judgment into question. Who knows? There may be none, but one can't begin to even guess unless one knows who they are.
I also offer no opinion about the three coins in question. I will say, however, that it is well-known that things like the blue nickels and blue cents have slipped by in the past. There are also some extremely deceptive counterfeits in the market, and I'd be very surprised to find out that none of those have found their way into top-tier slabs. Mistakes happen. I still don't trust finding those from pictures when several professionals have already examined them in hand.
So I guess to almost all of you I concur in part and dissent in part. (Please don't anyone be upset that I said 'concur.')
One would assume so...but then again what happens if/when PCGS reiterates their initial determination? Then you're either left holding a paperweight that can't be sold on eBay...or you have to sell it [and probably not realize the full price] to somebody in person. Neither being a great option.
And let's also assume that PCGS & NGC start getting into mre and more he said/she said situations re grading with eBay...are they ready to expend the time and effort to "go to the mat" for you to justify their decision, like your accountant does when the IRS calls?
Some have called this a slippery slope...this is more like a avalanche looking for a hill.
being pulled because the CWG felt it couldn't be Uncirculated? How could they possibly know this with enough reliability to cause an auction to be cancelled
with only a photo to go by and after PCGS has held the coin in hand by several graders and determined it is details uncirculated and the CWG nor Ebay not identifying their standards
or identities yet allowing PCGS's reputation taking another hit. I'm afraid that the CWG(while probably doing a wonderful job removing tons of really bad stuff, which if so, shouldn't
leave them with enough time to worry with an auction that is guaranteed by one of the top 2 Grading companies in the world if not the best.
While I even think that two incidents isn't enough to hang the CWG, but it is certainly enough to be suspicious and question the methods and criteria used
to make auction cancellations by both the CWG and EBay.
JMO
Jim
When a man who is honestly mistaken hears the truth, he will either quit being mistaken or cease to be honest....Abraham Lincoln
Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it.....Mark Twain
Although I consider even 1 to be 1 too many...this often repeated mantra also bothers me...considering that the entire membership of this forum also represents an exceedingly small fraction of the hobby at large. Therefore, we have no possible way of knowing what the actual numbers of cancelled auctions involving legit slabs might be.
This group has obviously been constituted to do something...so I'm sure they're doing "something" most of the time.
And I'll also ask this...with their reputation now being called into question...will it really be a positive for the rest of us that PCGS and NGC will definitely start looking extra, extra, extra hard at often legit toned coins...and possibly turning thumbs down...just in case. This is going to have a chilling effect...in ways we can't yet determine.
<< <i><<I keep reading that this is just a single incident and to let it go as a mistake>>
Although I consider even 1 to be 1 too many...this often repreated mantra also bothers me...considering that the entire membership of this forum also represents a exceedingly small fraction of the hobby at large. Therefore, we have no possible way of knowing what the actual numbers of cancelled auctions might be. >>
Which also means the number of cancelled auctions outside the forum could just as well be 0.