Jim: Thanks. I was just a bit frustrated by the Milbourne and Gibson, and a bit shocked by the Barr. Now that I look back at it, there were many good ones in that sub, especially the Doyle, Harrison, and the two Leaders cards. The raw set was really nice, but it had its share of stinkers mixed in as well. I really enjoyed building it and looking through it afterwards.
The miscut Hood is interesting. I took a chance on it, so I'm not surprised by the result. When I get it back, I'll post a scan of it, but what likely led to the miscut is a light second cut along the top edge that only breaks the surface. It looks sort of like the perforations/folds on the '64 topps standups but not that deep. I always wondered how PSA would treat that cut, so now I know...N8. I have a Kobel and a Tidrow in my raw set with a cut like that. They'll stay raw.
I'd suggest that the price of Gem 10's is as healthy as ever after tonights performance. Even Sutherland, a pop 9 in Gem Mint went for $128 (the lowest price amongst the dozen or so up for grabs).
Also, anyone else notice the PSA 8 Yount going for north of $130? There was either some emotional bidding going on or something else that I'm missing. It seems pretty rare that a solid 8 of Yount grabs three digits.
Superior Investments has some nice stock, but what really amazes me is Pristine Paper. The ratio of 9's and 10's in their subs is astounding.
Each year going back to 19??, Topps released factory sets. Does anyone know the year they started and if they ever released a factory sealed Mini set, or was it only wax/cello/vending?
Speaking of the bay, has anyone else been noticing a significant uptick in prices of HOF'ers and other key 8 and better minis? I'll cite, for examples, the recent closing of a Brett 8 for $152.49, numerous other 8's in the $120 range and a Yount 8 for $131.50. What?!? It wasn't that long ago (like three months, maybe) that either of these could be had during any week of the month for less than $100.
Also, some of the key difficult cards, like last week's sale of a Heidemann PSA 8 for $100 - when was the last time this card, in that condition picked up three digits? I would say (excepting last June's fluke sale at $130) never.
Further proof? How about the Clay Carroll sale early this month for $65? That is a new high for that card in PSA 8, by more than double over any other recorded sale.
Its my theory that as the economy improves, albeit very slowly, more discretionary income can and will be directed towards one's hobbies once again. With inflation on the not too distant horizon, this may be the last best time to purchase some of these cards. This most certainly will not happen overnight, but will occur rather slowly and incrementally. One day we'll wake up and a Vicente Romo PSA 8 going for $18 on a Buy it Now will be considered a great deal.
I have a mostly raw set of 75 Topps Mini's (in card savers) that I've completed from boxes of Mini's that I opened and didn't feel would grade better than 7's and 9 OC's and some cases 8. There probably are several cards that would grade 8's in the set. I also will have almost 50 graded cards (mostly 8's with some 7's and a PSA 7 George Brett). These go along to complete the raw set as I had graded some of the cards along the way. I intend to sell it at some point. Not sure if it will go on the bay or simply by word of mouth? Figured I'd talk about it here to determine what collectors think it's worth? I have my thoughts of value as well. I was initially hoping to get around $1,500 for it?
Yeah I gotta agree. 1500 is just not what raw collectors or raw speculators spend-- especially for minis that are so notoriously graded. BBC Exchange is priced retail level at 600 I think.
And Duff I look at that set every day. Thanks again!
My thoughts of value may have been a bit high. Perhaps $800 - $1,000? Like I mentioned, there are several cards in the set that would grade PSA 8.... so it's not completely off center examples. 40-50 cards are already graded. My revised value would be reasonable IMO.
I just want to raise a public thank you to MiniMaster for a really nice gesture toward me. We made a one for one trade on two 75 minis the other day. This afternoon, my son comes over to me with a PSA-type brown box from the mail and says excitedly, "You have a bunch of baseball cards!!" I thought to myself for a second, "now what could this be? I haven't made a big order lately." When my son handed me the box, I saw from the return address that it was from MiniMaster. When I opened up the package, there was not one but 18 other cards that I need for my set! My jaw absolutely dropped! Thank you MM!
Been working on a large project to organized all of my minis through the years. It is a real beast, but every once in a while I trip across something neat that I forgot about. This was in a box of commons from around when I bought my first raw set. Potentially really sweet find. The white flecks are dust. There is zero snow.
Buyer beware on the PSA 10 Cello Pack claiming to be 1/1 on the bay.... the other 1/1 PSA 10 (common on both sides?), (I guess they can claim 1/1 when it has a star card on one side or the other?) this seller sold I bought for around $200. I opened the pack and found bent cards in the middle of the pack? I was pretty ticked off, but not much you can do once you open the single pack? It's one thing if you open one of several from a case. At least you have more unopened examples to have inspected by experts to prove what you think to be true.
I bought what was suppose to be an unopened box of wax 75 Topps Mini's several years back and opened a few packs and immediately suspected that that box was reseals. I sent several of the remaining unopened packs to experts and proved they were reseals and after 2 or 3 months finally got the seller to refund my money! In that box there were cards with wax stains in the middle of some packs.....lol talk about a dead give away. Anyway..... Buyer beware!
MM, you opened a PSA 10 Gem Mint 75 mini cello pack? That's probably not a wise move under most circumstances as the value of a Gem Mint 10 pack is almost surely going to well exceed the sum of its contents and the grade of the pack really has no correlation to the condition of the cards inside the pack. Cellos from this era are also wrapped notoriously tight, and you're likely to find dinged corners on the cards inside. The cards also get that "banana" wave effect from being so tightly wrapped around the gum.
To my knowledge, the seller (Bob) of these cellos acquired them from the Conlon estate via the REA auctions several years ago. Although it sounds like you had some tough luck with that particular pack you opened, I'm certain that his mini cello packs are authentic and unopened.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I know it. I have known it. And I am still d-umb enough to crack one now and again, which I also did last week. I won the GAI 7 Boccabella cello, which was centered beautifully. Pure garbage inside, with all the headaches Tim mentions...very furstrating.
I understand that Cello packs might have some dinged corners from the tightly wrapped pack on the outside cards. I did not expect the type of damage several of the cards had. I find it difficult to see how a cards surface (not an edge or corner) could have a gouge on it's face (front of card) when that card was in the middle of the pack? Most of the cards had edge issues that certainly could be related to a mishandled cello pack. But the one card within the pack couldn't have sustained such a gouge from being mishandled. Perhaps a rare factory gouge that just so happens to be on a card in a cello pack that was bumped around?
In hindsight it's easy to say that the best course was to leave the pack in it's graded holder. I could have pulled several 10's as well? It was a test on my part to see what this pack would yield. I hadn't bought any graded before, so I thought I'd try one.
I am glad I didn't sell it to someone else later on and have them find the garbage in this pack! It simply confirmed my fears/reasons why I never bought cello's in the past. It was my thought that the tightly wrapped packs woud likely damage the outside cards front and back. Without question those outside cards were worthless for expecting a grade of more than 3 or 4 in this pack I opened. I would however expect the inside cards to be well maintained due to the tight wrap? But if the packs were dropped or things banged into them (which is likely over a 35+ year time frame), then the edge dings are understandable. I would expect PSA graders to be able to see with magification if the edges may have been compromised? Or do they simply grade the sealed wrap? It would seem they should be looking at the cards to some degree in addition to the wrap?
It was a costly lesson that won't be repeated that's for certain. I had not seen PSA 10 grades on these and figured PSA graders must have thought highly of this cello pack to give it the only PSA 10 grade to that date? How wrong was that train of thought.... lol.
Well, better to share my story and give others the information in which they can then take or leave when making the decision to purchase a single graded cello pack.
The seller of those packs did buy the REA Conlon lot of cello boxes and loose packs. Whatever, he has graded came from that source. I would consider him an honest seller.
Tough break on the Psa 10 pack mini. For me this just validates that I would not open these cello packs - not that I would anyhow as I like to keep my stuff sealed.
It is funny that MM and I did something very similar with very similar outcomes within days of each other. I am just grateful I did it with a relatively inexpensive pack as sort of a test myself. I had opened a couple cellos in the past with poor results, but none graded. FYI for anyone interested as well: A dead centered card in front meant nothing to the cards behind it.
Of the three possible unopened sources for minis (rack, wax, cello), cellos are dead last by a country mile for potential gradable cards. This is true for the most part at least of all 70s cellos, which were very tightly wrapped and sandwiched around the gum in the first place, though the jumbo cellos from 1970-1973 (if they've been properly stored) will usually yield some very nice cards. Actually, I've had pretty good results with regular size 75 cellos to some extent, but definitely not the minis, which are meant to be kept sealed unless you really jonesin' for a rip.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
That PSA 8 and better Ross Grimsley will soon make it onto my top ten list of toughest to acquire...tonight's $160 sale price is higher than any recorded on VCP, by a large margin too.
<< <i>That PSA 8 and better Ross Grimsley will soon make it onto my top ten list of toughest to acquire...tonight's $160 sale price is higher than any recorded on VCP, by a large margin too. >>
I tracked that one as well. With a pop 9 of only 2 cards and no 10's, an 8 is the best most of us will ever see, and unlike the typical Grimsley that one was well centered and not cut short. I can see why it commanded a high price.
Going back to our discussions on what now constitutes a "low pop", I think it is safe to call a low pop 8 anything 35 and under (that doesnt have a lot of 9s, such as Hamilton, Williams and a few other oddballs).
Almost all the cards that fit this description are red/yellow and green/yellow, so they have the "bonus multuiplier" in play if they are full sized.
A couple of interesting exceptions as beasts flying somewhat under the radar are: Steve Rogers and Denny Doyle. Rogers especially carriers a premium as a 9, but neither has carried a premium in 8 reflecting their difficulty. Doyle in particular is only pop 27 in 8. To put that in perspective, only Cliff Johnson (22) and Rick Burleson (24) have lower pops at this time (Alou and Claudell are also 27). Steve Rogers is a 33 pop 8 and 3 pop 9, very comparable to Grimsley at 34/2, yet has never sold at a number anywhere near his in an 8.
Doyle to me is interesting. He has the exact same pop as Alou (27 8s and 7 9s), yet is never seen the same way. Before discounting that observation with the Green/yellow short aspect, take a look at the graded Doyles on VCP, mutiple 9s are noticably short, including the one I bought recently (the scan was perfectly situated to hide just how short it was).
Just random thoughts, but with so much interest in the mini set, particularly at an 8 level right now, I think we are in for a number of surprising results on cards we haven't thought much about in some time.
The consistent theme with these individual price spikes is how sporadic they are...the sign of two or more people not wanting to back down and wait for the next one which, in the case of Grimsley, may be about 3 or 4 months!
I understand the thinking behind higher and lower qualities within the same grade, and this particular #458 really did have it all. Still, the price cannot be ignored.
Speaking of price...can anyone shed light on why a seemingly innocuous card like #574 Tony Taylor in PSA 9 suddenly fetches three digits? Six months ago, it was worth $26 at auction and likely had lower pop at the time, less than the current count of 11. Or will this, in the near future, result in this common situation:
[...about one year from now...]
Collector 1: "Hey, I just picked up a nice Tony Taylor in PSA 9." Collector 2: "Great, you needed that for your set. How much was it?" Collector 1: "Got it for $30, but it was a real bidding war!" Collector 2: "Wow! Did you see on VCP that it used to sell for over $100?!?!"
I don't know. It seems like there are always one offs, but the Taylor is hardly unique these days. There have been a bunch of expensive 9s lately as the audience has really grown, well beyond the registry.
I have often wondered the same thing about the Doyle. But perhaps we're not comparing apples to apples here. The Grimsley may have a PSA 8 population of 34, but I wonder how many of those would stand up to current grading standards? As many of us know, naturally short versions of green/yellows (like the Grimsley) were holdered in the past. Grimsley was commonly cut short at the factory (I have an under-79-mm version from a board member that obtained from a pack). Today, in order to get holdered, the card needs to be at least 80 mm. Therefore, I suspect that the pop of full-sized Grimsleys in PSA 8 is probably alot less than 34 or even the 27 pop of Doyle. Full-sized examples are valued by collectors, so perhaps not only are there new collectors desiring/bidding on the Grimsley in PSA 8 but also more experienced collectors of the set wanting to "upgrade" their older graded examples. A situation like this would certainly drive up the price.
The collector that won the Grimsley is not a new collector and was a huge part of the old thread. I'd say he is working on putting his 7th complete set together at 8 or better.
Comments
Jim: Thanks. I was just a bit frustrated by the Milbourne and Gibson, and a bit shocked by the Barr. Now that I look back at it, there were many good ones in that sub, especially the Doyle, Harrison, and the two Leaders cards. The raw set was really nice, but it had its share of stinkers mixed in as well. I really enjoyed building it and looking through it afterwards.
The miscut Hood is interesting. I took a chance on it, so I'm not surprised by the result. When I get it back, I'll post a scan of it, but what likely led to the miscut is a light second cut along the top edge that only breaks the surface. It looks sort of like the perforations/folds on the '64 topps standups but not that deep. I always wondered how PSA would treat that cut, so now I know...N8. I have a Kobel and a Tidrow in my raw set with a cut like that. They'll stay raw.
Also, anyone else notice the PSA 8 Yount going for north of $130? There was either some emotional bidding going on or something else that I'm missing. It seems pretty rare that a solid 8 of Yount grabs three digits.
Dave
Thanks,
David (LD_Ferg)
1985 Topps Football (starting in psa 8) - #9 - started 05/21/06
Each year going back to 19??, Topps released factory sets. Does anyone know the year they started and if they ever released a factory sealed Mini set, or was it only wax/cello/vending?
The superior 10s were old slabs, left over from the set break last year. They were all garbage that sold for way too much money.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Bosox1976
Bosox1976
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Also, some of the key difficult cards, like last week's sale of a Heidemann PSA 8 for $100 - when was the last time this card, in that condition picked up three digits? I would say (excepting last June's fluke sale at $130) never.
Further proof? How about the Clay Carroll sale early this month for $65? That is a new high for that card in PSA 8, by more than double over any other recorded sale.
Its my theory that as the economy improves, albeit very slowly, more discretionary income can and will be directed towards one's hobbies once again. With inflation on the not too distant horizon, this may be the last best time to purchase some of these cards. This most certainly will not happen overnight, but will occur rather slowly and incrementally. One day we'll wake up and a Vicente Romo PSA 8 going for $18 on a Buy it Now will be considered a great deal.
<< <i>Looks like you found a pretty nice set. Ebay? >>
Yes - a pretty cheap Buy-It-Now. I'd say mostly NM to NM/MT with a few better.
Bosox1976
I intend to sell it at some point. Not sure if it will go on the bay or simply by word of mouth? Figured I'd talk about it here to determine what collectors think it's worth? I have my thoughts of value as well. I was initially hoping to get around $1,500 for it?
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
And Duff I look at that set every day. Thanks again!
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
1992 Collectors Edge Football case?
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Bosox1976
1992 Collectors Edge Football case?
I bought what was suppose to be an unopened box of wax 75 Topps Mini's several years back and opened a few packs and immediately suspected that that box was reseals. I sent several of the remaining unopened packs to experts and proved they were reseals and after 2 or 3 months finally got the seller to refund my money! In that box there were cards with wax stains in the middle of some packs.....lol talk about a dead give away. Anyway..... Buyer beware!
To my knowledge, the seller (Bob) of these cellos acquired them from the Conlon estate via the REA auctions several years ago. Although it sounds like you had some tough luck with that particular pack you opened, I'm certain that his mini cello packs are authentic and unopened.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I know it. I have known it. And I am still d-umb enough to crack one now and again, which I also did last week. I won the GAI 7 Boccabella cello, which was centered beautifully. Pure garbage inside, with all the headaches Tim mentions...very furstrating.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
In hindsight it's easy to say that the best course was to leave the pack in it's graded holder. I could have pulled several 10's as well? It was a test on my part to see what this pack would yield. I hadn't bought any graded before, so I thought I'd try one.
I am glad I didn't sell it to someone else later on and have them find the garbage in this pack! It simply confirmed my fears/reasons why I never bought cello's in the past. It was my thought that the tightly wrapped packs woud likely damage the outside cards front and back. Without question those outside cards were worthless for expecting a grade of more than 3 or 4 in this pack I opened. I would however expect the inside cards to be well maintained due to the tight wrap? But if the packs were dropped or things banged into them (which is likely over a 35+ year time frame), then the edge dings are understandable. I would expect PSA graders to be able to see with magification if the edges may have been compromised? Or do they simply grade the sealed wrap? It would seem they should be looking at the cards to some degree in addition to the wrap?
It was a costly lesson that won't be repeated that's for certain. I had not seen PSA 10 grades on these and figured PSA graders must have thought highly of this cello pack to give it the only PSA 10 grade to that date? How wrong was that train of thought.... lol.
Well, better to share my story and give others the information in which they can then take or leave when making the decision to purchase a single graded cello pack.
Tough break on the Psa 10 pack mini. For me this just validates that I would not open these cello packs - not that I would anyhow as I like to keep my stuff sealed.
aconte
I had opened a couple cellos in the past with poor results, but none graded. FYI for anyone interested as well: A dead centered card in front meant nothing to the cards behind it.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
<< <i>Placing a stick of gum in the middle of a tightly bound cello pack? Talk about maximizing stupidity! >>
im guessing it had to do with placing the gum on plastic and toxicity? Remember it was sold for the gum back then
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
<< <i>That PSA 8 and better Ross Grimsley will soon make it onto my top ten list of toughest to acquire...tonight's $160 sale price is higher than any recorded on VCP, by a large margin too. >>
I tracked that one as well. With a pop 9 of only 2 cards and no 10's, an 8 is the best most of us will ever see, and unlike the typical Grimsley that one was well centered and not cut short. I can see why it commanded a high price.
1975 mini's
1954 Wilson Franks
Almost all the cards that fit this description are red/yellow and green/yellow, so they have the "bonus multuiplier" in play if they are full sized.
A couple of interesting exceptions as beasts flying somewhat under the radar are: Steve Rogers and Denny Doyle. Rogers especially carriers a premium as a 9, but neither has carried a premium in 8 reflecting their difficulty.
Doyle in particular is only pop 27 in 8. To put that in perspective, only Cliff Johnson (22) and Rick Burleson (24) have lower pops at this time (Alou and Claudell are also 27). Steve Rogers is a 33 pop 8 and 3 pop 9, very comparable to Grimsley at 34/2, yet has never sold at a number anywhere near his in an 8.
Doyle to me is interesting. He has the exact same pop as Alou (27 8s and 7 9s), yet is never seen the same way. Before discounting that observation with the Green/yellow short aspect, take a look at the graded Doyles on VCP, mutiple 9s are noticably short, including the one I bought recently (the scan was perfectly situated to hide just how short it was).
Just random thoughts, but with so much interest in the mini set, particularly at an 8 level right now, I think we are in for a number of surprising results on cards we haven't thought much about in some time.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
I understand the thinking behind higher and lower qualities within the same grade, and this particular #458 really did have it all. Still, the price cannot be ignored.
Speaking of price...can anyone shed light on why a seemingly innocuous card like #574 Tony Taylor in PSA 9 suddenly fetches three digits? Six months ago, it was worth $26 at auction and likely had lower pop at the time, less than the current count of 11. Or will this, in the near future, result in this common situation:
[...about one year from now...]
Collector 1: "Hey, I just picked up a nice Tony Taylor in PSA 9."
Collector 2: "Great, you needed that for your set. How much was it?"
Collector 1: "Got it for $30, but it was a real bidding war!"
Collector 2: "Wow! Did you see on VCP that it used to sell for over $100?!?!"
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions