As a fairly new member, I wasn't sure what to expect. My first sub was during the December (2011) special, only about 70 cards - it was received and logged on the same day and shipped back the next day. I believe I posted around that time asking if a 24 hr turnaround was unusual.
The next three submissions (2 in January and 1 last month) were all much slower. 5-7 days between receipt and loggage, followed by another 3 to 4 weeks to ship back.
I'm too new, with too few submissions to have established what is normal but, for what its worth, I fully expected a 30-40 day time frame to be in effect when utilizing the collector club specials.
I've had a lot of different subs of different sizes over different times. I've seen huge orders graded in 2 or 3 days and small ones wait two months, with everything in between. I'm sure the 4.50 special, just before the season, is bogging them down a bit. 10 days just seemed long this time. It has in general been around 5 days, with poppage within a week or so after that. Of course they don't and shouldn't guarantee that, but it has been fairly normal for a few years for me.
Let's have a fun discussion. I'll throw myself up as the first self inflicted victim of card versus slab. You can guess which one I use in my registry set, but which do I prefer?:
I gave the Guerrero a strong effort, but didn't want to bid emotionally and bailed at $34.00 -- although it is one of the last three dozen cards I needed to complete.
Jim -
Regarding the pair of Taveras cards you're displaying, what is your knowledge of the cert #'s? My ongoing "learn-as-I-go" education tells me that out of chronology certs are generally specific to large volume submitters (i.e. 6004xxxx = 4 Sharp Corners). The two cards show a 3048xxxx and a 3162xxxx, so I can't tell by looking which occurred first, but I have to imagine that the Mint 9 Taveras has at least a couple of years on the Nm-Mt 8 variety.
When looking at them side by side, it would almost be fair to simply swap the flips.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I have not mentioned this before.... but have recognized it for years! I feel there could be variations within the Mini's. I've notice that cards with red/yellow richer color tend to be naturally short more so than the less colorful examples like that on the right. I don't believe I've seen a short example with the less colorful examples in this color and that of the Green/Yellow. I've noticed differences in the color die of several of the color groups. I also keep an example of each just in case down the road a variation set is created. Many of the vintage sets have a Master and Basic set due to variations. Most of these sets have differences other than color change, so I anticipate there probably won't be a Master/Basic set situation with the Mini's. But I do find it interesting non the less.
Obviously the card on the right is superior to the one on the left. About the only thing the card on the left has better than the one on the right is it's richer color. But it all stops there. The card on the right has better centering less print marks and better edges. I agree the cards should be flipped. I have cards in my sets that should be flipped as well. I'm sure anyone with a complete graded set would be in the same boat. It's a 660 card set. As much as I think graders should be more consistant the evidence out there shows that they don't always get it right. Luckily the majority of the cards they do.
I'm sure that we can all come up with similar examples, which makes it an interesting subject.
In this case, I have clearly let the registry dictate what I collect, rather than the collector in me. It is probably why I have chosen not to sell the 8, though one like that would likely bring a nice premium.
OK, this brings up a question (or two) - What is considered a low pop 9 for mini's? And, how much effort do any of you take in pursuing 9's over strong 8's like we see in the Taveras example?
It's a relative point when talking about low pop's. In a set like the 68 Topps, a low pop PSA 9 would be any card having a pop of less than 25. In the 75 Topps Mini set not to long ago it was under 10. Demand has a lot to do with the consideration of what is a low pop. There are scores of collectors involved in the 68 Topps and therefore a PSA 9 pop of 25 is considered low because so many collectors have already gobbled up the existing population. For similar reasons the 75 Topps Mini's PSA 9 low pop standard has climbed from below 10 to probably around 15 and maybe a tad more? What is a low pop of a PSA 8 example? The answer has changed even more than that of 9's as the number of collectors putting together the set in this condition have risen much more than those collecting the set in 9 or better.
Regarding the 2nd point of going after a quality 8 vs. a gifted 9. Sadly this question was created because a grader didn't really take the proper time to examine a given card and another grader perhaps was to harsh on grading another. The correct answer in this case might be to go after the quality 8? However, the PSA Set Registry is what it is and many collectors are looking to raise their GPA.
Having played this game for close to 8 years now.... I can understand some giving the advise to consider the quality 8 over a higher graded card that may not look as good as the higher graded card. However, there are some things to consider when making this decision. Looks can be deceiving! Just because one example might have better color and slightly better centering doesn't mean the card is a better example overall. The nicer looking card could have flawed edges and or corners? Maybe a scratched surface that can't be detected in a scan? The back of the better example may have flaws that a collector may not be happy with? There are obviously many factors to consider before making the decision to go with the 8 vs. the 9 that at first glance may not look as good as the 8.
The best advise is to get as much information about the card you're considering to purchase. Each card may have certain qualities that allowed it to reach a given grade. The obvious mistakes are usually easy to see and as a buyer I would recommend passing on the mistakes. It's the closer calls that can be tricky. Just because you think it's a better card doesn't always mean that it actually is! Accurate information is your friend when it comes to buying a graded card. Sometimes you need to go beyond the viewing of the card. Don't be afraid to ask questions of the seller before you decide to buy
OK, you get a rookie's opinion first...these are my thoughts, but don't take them for the gospel.
The mini's could be considered an anomaly within the 70's/modern cards. I collected them for three months before even looking at a population report. Then, another two months before becoming a PSA member; still very focused on the minis...that is the only item I collect.
By the end of last year, I knew the approximate 8 and higher population of each card. This wasn't terribly difficult, because, at the time, we were dealing with small numbers and, for the most part, we still are. Through November of last year, it was basically only the HOF'ers and select other subset cards (i.e. Rookie Pitchers, MVP's, Highlights, etc) had even 100 or more total submissions.
I didn't realize this for awhile, but of all the Topp's major realeases in the decade of the 1970's, the mini's had the least quantity graded (save for the '79 Topps set...and not by much). Certainly the limited release/test marketing of the mini's has some say in this but, even so, the quantities are miniscule compared to the '70-'75 regular issues. I was blown away the first time I looked at the pop report of the '75 regular set and saw basic commons with a total population of 200-300 each! Meanwhile, myself and others were (are) struggling to build sets with populations of 1/4th that amount.
With that said, let's get to your question...what is a low pop 9? Well, I don't believe there is a cut and dried answer to that. Its become clear to me that the population may or may not drive the price. Case and point: #28 Tom Murphy. I consider this to be a relatively difficult card to find with a population of 35 PSA 8's, 11 PSA 9's and no 10's. However, price be damned. When available, the 8's are $6 -$8 each, and a 9 just sold last month for $23.
Now, on the other side of the equation, you can take a #233 Billy Grabarkewitz with a pop of 41 - 8's, 12 - 9's and a single 10, and you're looking at a bill of $20-$30 for the 8 and $100 for the 9.
To summarize, there is many more factors at work, outside of population, determining the desirability of a mini card graded in PSA 9.
Edited to acknowledge that T. Allan submitted a response before mine posted...was not calling him a rookie.
I'll use myself as an example for the newer builders of this set as I am kind of the "in between". I started well after MM, Matty, Henry, Eric, Redsoxjeff and others back in the day, but I also started before many who post now.
When I first started buying few graded keys to go with my raw sets, I never imagined completing a graded set. It was very, very intimidating. There were really only 2 sellers at the time (4sc and DSL) and you never saw many individual cards at all. The thought of self grading was scary as well. $3-4k in slabs alone, let alone finding cards nice enough. At that time, there were a number of cards that had never seen a 9 and plenty of 8s with pops under 15.
Eventually I decided that I wanted to keep it simple. My goal would be, over time, to build (mixing buying and self submitting) an 8.0 set. It took a long time and was quite hard to do. Especially just finding those last 40 or 50 cards. I eventually self subbed a psa 7 ed goodson for my last card. I then made a new goal of upgrading every card to a min of psa 8 nq. Again, this was a beast, but I got there with patience.
Over time, my goals evolved. I have kept sane by keeping my goals GPA related rather than what # set I have on the registry. Breaking the top 10 was the only goal I ever set from that standpoint, and that was long ago. What I found is that you have no control over those around you and they should not impact how you go about your own set. One day I was 6 and a few weeks later I was 2 for a short while as people blew up and retired sets. They came back and things changed. Che sera sera.
It is a sin that the old thread is gone. It was such an incredible resource. There was a great debate on whether 301 Roberts or 460 NLCS was the tougher 9 and how either would bring $500+. NLCS has remained, but Roberts has become far more accessable. There was speculation as to what it would take to build a 9.0 set. The consensus was $100k. Since that time, Eric, Matty, Henry and Tommy have all accomplished it (I am purposely ignoring MM as his set has always been on another planet).
The Conlon Auction changed a lot. It came at a time where the economy was at its worst and 26 cases hit the market together at the same time as a beautiful lot of 20k raw cards (4 more cases). This caused supply to exceed demand for the first time in my experience, and really built the population of 8s and 9s.
As someone who grades and sells a lot to upgrade his own set, I see a lot. I can tell you that there are at least as many poeple building this set off the registry as on. I am sure some of them lurk here. In my opinion, the base of mini collectors is larger now than it has ever been. For that reason, MM is right, 9s with a pop of 10-15, which would once have been $20~ cards are now routinely selling for $50 to over $100. As a bidder, it is taking some getting used to.
For 8s, there is something of a lag. Low pop for an 8 now is probably 35 and there is demand to support that. We are at a point where a number of new collectors are where we all were once: Coming to grips with shelling out $100+ for Claudell, Burleson, Taveras, etc.. We all think: I am never going to do that. BUT, this set is so damned addicting that we do. And for some of us, even that isn't enough, then we want a 9...It is an evolutionary process.
So, neverending story aside, the definition of low pop has indeed changed as we as a community continue to grow. It has been and will continue to be a neat ride, especially as it has become much, much more economical and realistic to complete this set in 8.
Part of the problem is that the pop report is best case scenario for the population. It includes crack and resubs and a number of short cards that were slabbed before grading standards were improved.
I agree MiniDuff.....the old thread was a great resource. I'm glad I had the opportunity to read it before I started my set.
Interesting topic and even better responses. My story to this point is similar to Jim's. I started out with the mini's after Jim and most others here who currently post with a mixed raw/graded set with no intentions of going further due to the intimidation factor that Jim mentioned. After completing that first set, I went on from there to simply enjoy my set in its then form and follow the old thread, which was stellar as many here have already stated. Then along came the Conlon sale, the faltering economy, and frequent monthly grading specials, all which together changed everything for me in terms of the mini's. All of a sudden there was a huge increase in supply and a substantial drop in demand, prices went off the cliff, and the intimidation factor disappeared for me. I started out buying PSA 8 commons for as little as $3 apiece and in some cases around $1 apiece. So, were it not for the Conlon collection, the bad economy, and, honestly, the interesting discussions in the old thread motivating me, I never would have attempted the set in graded form.
My goal with the set is an overall GPA of 8+, all major stars in 8 and above, and no card lower than a PSA 7 (no qualifiers - I don't like them). I'm limiting my 7's to low pop red/yellows and green/yellows that commonly have print defects and go for $25 or more in PSA 8+. I love and appreciate this set more than any other that I've ever collected, but I definitely don't see myself ever shelling out $25+ for a common PSA 8, no matter what. That's me and how I collect. To each is own - that's what's great about this hobby. I'm quite satisfied with those cards in a 7, and to me they commonly look every bit as good as the older 8's and many 9's where, at the time they were graded, PD didn't appear to be such a big issue. All the low pop 8's in my set worth over $25 were submitted in raw form myself. If I ever upgrade to an all 8 or above set, it will be through raw card submissions unless the prices come down (which, as a collector of the set, I hope never happens).
You guys are great! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and time regarding this set.
Well stated Jim! I really enjoyed reading your thoughts on the Mini's and how your set evolved. Your's as well Nick
This is what's it's all about, and what I like most about collecting. The passion it brings out of individuals that truely get what it's all about.
So many similar thoughts as I began my journey into my graded set of Mini's back in 2004. At first it was a simple PSA 8 example of card #145 Ken Holtzman of the A's. A memory of a pitcher I once saw pitch in one of the first games my father took me to back in 1974 in Oakland. I was dabbling around on eBay and realized they sold 1975 Topps Mini baseball cards in these hard cases. Graded by PSA Hmmmm. So I bought the Holtzman card and little did I know at the time.....my journey into this graded set had begun
Having collected these cards as a kid, this sparked my interest. I checked into this PSA grading thing. Then I took a risk and purchased a raw set on eBay that was was made up of 20 or so star PSA 9's and the rest raw cards said to be in PSA 8 or better condition. All individually holdered in card savers. It actually yielded many PSA 8 and 9's roughly 65%-70%. The rest were mostly 7's.
Later I found that I could actually buy an unopened box of these babies! Wow was that an amazing experience! To open the packs again, like when I was just a kid I think I bought my first box from the seller "The Baseball Card Kid". I was told this was a pretty reliable source for legit unopened material. It was a very nice box of well centered cards. Many of the first PSA 9's and (a few) 10's of given cards in the set came out of that box.
Populations were a fraction of what they are now. I still have the print out of the complete population report from 2004. I think of all the duplicates I sold for fractions of what they would have gone for today.
My original goal was to put together a PSA 8 mixed with PSA 9's. If I picked up a 10 in grading so be it. I had no plan at that time to get 10's. My first submission was such a success that it appeared I had a pretty good shot at getting to the #1 set on the PSA Registry. #1 at the time was only 85% completed. So a few more unopened boxes, and some purchases on eBay and other auctions and away things began to evolve for my set. By late 2004 early 2005 my set was the first to reach 100% completion. At a GPA of 8.90 my set was awarded Modern Set of the Year by PSA. It was completely unexpected and a great surprise! Then in 2009 PSA made it the first Modern Baseball Set to be placed into the PSA Set Registry HOF.
One could imagine how difficult it was to complete a graded set back in 2004 with the populations so low. My luck, not to much competition in the first few years of my set building. Later that would of course change. Back then the low populations made it difficult to build a high grade set. Now, not only the low populations, but the stiff competition of getting certain cards has made the task more difficult.
Overall it has been a wonderful experience putting together my set. It's great communicating with fellow collectors. Interesting to see the peaks and valleys of competition for these Mini's through the years. I'm thrilled with the fact that the 75 Topps Mini's are admired by so many collectors. There are now over (60) 75 Topps Mini sets to have been started on the PSA Set Registry. I'm sure as Jim mentioned, there are several graded sets being built that are not listed on the registry. New sets are starting all the time.
I agree with Jim, the old 75 Topps Mini thread needs to be returned to this message board. Having over 3,000 entries, it was one of the most popular threads on the message board. Even our new thread has well over 500 entries already. Far to much history and information in the old thread not to have it reinstated!
Continued success to all 75 Topps Mini Collectors..... may your journey be filled with passion
Great story Minimaster and incredible passion and accomplishment. You left a big part of your journey out but thats ok. You have the passion as does anyone building a collection,myself included. There has been a welcomed increase in people collecting this great set which is exciting and terrific for all involved. My opinion happens to be to submit if one can and if buying slabbed to purchase the nicest card for the grade and not buy the flip. Always has been ..always will be. For those that are concerned with GPA and set rankings..they are certainly entitled to do so. You cant deny that you were one of those people. And that is fine. Just dont pretend that you were not. I am working on a graded mini set as is most everyone else here and I have contributed to the mini thread both old and new. Psa grading on the minis has been outstanding in recent times and makes it fun to collect.
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Some great insight minimaster. I remember back in old thread with mattyc their was some great stuff in it. Nothing wrong with a minor dust up. Just getting back into mini scene again. Picked up a couple from miniduff on the bay.
The Killebrew is sweet akbd. That and Blyleven are my favorite cards in set. Still looks like the Bert in PSA 9 is next to impossible. When was last time PSA graded a 9 of that one?
On another note, I re-read Jim's post and took note of the statement that many start out with the intention of not going above a certain card price, but eventually do because the set is so addicting. You know, he's right. I can see myself raising the bar, or at least be tempted to do so, once I've achieved my present goals. I've already done so already with upgrading stars from 7's to 8's, so I guess don't rule me out of competing for that psa 8 Fred Stanley in the future. Btw, thanks for sharing your stories on how you all started out with the mini's. It's very interesting how we all started out similarly with the set.
The Bert has been a pop 4 in PSA 9 forever. I once had a deal pending for one for like $400, and I passed because there were so many strong 8s, I was sure another 9 would pop up.
Not one of my better calls. But knowing my luck, I'd've bought it and the next day two more 9s would've been slabbed
Anyways here are the ones that have remained in my personal collection, after the set sale...
I also kept a Schmidt PSA 9 (full) and a Ryan #7 HL PSA 10, but do not have scans of those handy.
Further to an earlier point, yes, the 1975 Mini Set-- and Registry Set building across the board I imagine-- gets very addicting. It's in the DNA of the Registry, to potentially foster both competition and a desire to upgrade one's cards. I began with a goal of finding the best graded stars out there, and only wanted the commons in centered 8 quality (preferable raw for a binder). But then inevitably...
1. You get to know all the nuances of the set; you begin to appreciate the rarity of certain commons routinely plagued by printing flaws. So you buy one, then another... 2. You enter all your slabs and stare at all those upgradable slots...and slowly change your goal... "Well, I'm so close to an 8.5, I'll stop there." (Cut to months later...) "Well, I can make a little push to 8.75..."
Before you know it, you're chasing the elusive 9.00 and have spent about 40K more than you ever thought you would, lol!
mattyc those are some keepers can see why you didn't want to sell those off.
any reason why Blyleven is so tough? aren't most o/c top bottom coming out of packs. Would think now he is HOF a few more people might look to grade his cards. Maybe we will see a few more 9's pop for it.
Thanks, ABL. I have always felt that star minis in great centered high grade a such a thing of beauty. Very much like pop art to me.
If no one has any objections to it being slightly off the mini topic, I have just scanned a bunch of the HOF cards I've gotten heavily into since selling my set. In that way I guess it is relevant to the mini discussion. I have posted some before on the main forum, but most of the fellow collectors I speak with regularly I know from the mini set.
The history of the 75 minis and me.......I actually bought these when they had them in the "fun bags"..like 4 diff. sports/non-sports selections and like 25-30 packs per bag......my brother and I looked at them and had no idea what to make of them...this was just after we bought a 75 reg. set from mail order for..10.00.....I remember having a few carter and rice cards out of them......now to 2010-11... My friend is set up at a show and its getting late....he has slabbed cards for like 2.00 each....tells me 1.00 each for whatever i want and guess what..there were like 10 minis in psa 7/8.......ut oh..I am hooked !!!!! down to 3 cards to finish set now...all the superstars/famers are in 8nq and most of the rest are 7's...all were bought graded from ebay and the great guys on this board, especially JIM (MINI DUFF)......AND YOU OTHER GUYS WHOM HAVE HELPED ME.. now for the last 3 cards, I am actually going to submit some to psa with someone from the boards, who let me tag along......I am asking for cards to be graded at least 7nq if they are deemed gradeable and then i will be done.....might even put them on registry, although i will be the bottom guy on it, never the less, i will be on it.....thanks for letting this lil boy of 52 tell his story...lol ivan
Thanks. That Winfield has been one of my favorite cards of any set for a long time-- so, so tough without the usual problems. I remember I had a MONSTER snipe set in for that card when it was up for auction.
A Jose Cruz in ANY PSA HOLDER is a cardboard miracle, great card.
My two older cousins got me into card collecting when I was about 8 yrs old. I was born in 76, but was a huge fan of George Brett's game and his cards were always among my favorites.
One day my cousin told me he had been to a flea market and happened upon some 75 cards, including a stack of Bretts, but he balked at buying them when he had them in hand-- he thought there was "something wrong" with them: they were way smaller than average.
Of course we were just little kids and the minis were not prevalent in Brooklyn and Staten Island. Anyways, he shortly thereafter found they were legit, and we got all into the minis.
My story of mini collecting: I am primarily an unopened collector, and have been for 20 years now, but I was always drawn to mini packs, both wax and cello, and of course the ever elusive mini rack pack. When I first began opening a few packs, I started with 78 Topps and 75 minis, and shortly after that, I joined the set registry to enter the cards I got back from PSA after opening packs. It's been a slow journey as my pursuit waxes and wanes depending on how much unopened product I have, but to this point I've kept to my goal of a 90% self-submitted set, where 9 out of 10 cards in my set were pulled by me and sent to PSA. Over time, I've gotten better at submitting minis and my last sub had 10 PSA 9s out of 20 cards submitted. My goal is to put together the set in PSA 8 or better and stick to my 90% rule. It's a terrific set!
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I still do believe wholeheartedly that there are 9s out there hiding in PSA 8 slabs.
It would be a great card to hoard in strong 8s, then crack them all and resubmit in hopes of the elusive 9.
I have seen and handled some beautiful 8s-- that were superior to the one PSA 9 I almost bought back in the day, hands down.
I think the rich color of the Blyleven lends itself to easily detectable corner touches; any hint of white and they ding it down to an 8. They are very harsh on this card.
Born in 1969, 1975 cards were the first I collected. When I got back into collecting several years ago, the old mini thread was fascinating to me, so I started trying to collect a set in all 8 or better. I'm about 57% there, purchasing all of my cards from ebay. I've tried to focus on the 8 grippers (MattyC term) and have most of them already. I'd define these as pops 40 and below for 8's and 9's. Some of these don't come up for sale very often. Now I just have to finish the set with some of the more common cards and star cards. Full-sized cards are a quality that my set has.
I pulled this from a wax pack in 2004 shortly after I started building my set. This was the first PSA 9 of #30 Bert Rikalbert Blyleven. There is a very small white print mark at the middle right edge, and an even smaller one at the top right just below the corner. Edges/Corners sharp, color is great, centering front/back is amazing for this card! The best example I've ever seen.
appears my attempt to load scan failed? How is it you get such big scans on this thread and mine says file to big to load and it's a tiny picture? A little help please
I saw that photo bucket was being used. So I signed up for that. I went to copy and insert the image link and it didn't work? Then it didn't allow me to get back into my post and edit anymore? Gave me an error message that PSA is aware of the error and they will correct it?
While not quite on a par with "who watches the Watchmen", I had an interesting experience this week. I was running low on bubble wrap and BJs hasn't had it in a while. I broke down and ordered a boxed roll from Amazon. It came the other day. Doubled boxed. With protective wrapping inside the box...
I looked at it for a few seconds and just started laughing.
Comments
The next three submissions (2 in January and 1 last month) were all much slower. 5-7 days between receipt and loggage, followed by another 3 to 4 weeks to ship back.
I'm too new, with too few submissions to have established what is normal but, for what its worth, I fully expected a 30-40 day time frame to be in effect when utilizing the collector club specials.
Dave
I've had a lot of different subs of different sizes over different times. I've seen huge orders graded in 2 or 3 days and small ones wait two months, with everything in between. I'm sure the 4.50 special, just before the season, is bogging them down a bit.
10 days just seemed long this time. It has in general been around 5 days, with poppage within a week or so after that. Of course they don't and shouldn't guarantee that, but it has been fairly normal for a few years for me.
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Thanks...
To be honest, no direction, but...
1966-69 Topps EX+
1975 minis NrMt Kelloggs PSA 9
All Topps Heritage-Master Sets
ebay id Duffs_Dugout
My Ebay Auctions
Jim -
Regarding the pair of Taveras cards you're displaying, what is your knowledge of the cert #'s? My ongoing "learn-as-I-go" education tells me that out of chronology certs are generally specific to large volume submitters (i.e. 6004xxxx = 4 Sharp Corners). The two cards show a 3048xxxx and a 3162xxxx, so I can't tell by looking which occurred first, but I have to imagine that the Mint 9 Taveras has at least a couple of years on the Nm-Mt 8 variety.
When looking at them side by side, it would almost be fair to simply swap the flips.
Now, what do I win?
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
Obviously the card on the right is superior to the one on the left. About the only thing the card on the left has better than the one on the right is it's richer color. But it all stops there. The card on the right has better centering less print marks and better edges. I agree the cards should be flipped. I have cards in my sets that should be flipped as well. I'm sure anyone with a complete graded set would be in the same boat. It's a 660 card set. As much as I think graders should be more consistant the evidence out there shows that they don't always get it right. Luckily the majority of the cards they do.
In this case, I have clearly let the registry dictate what I collect, rather than the collector in me. It is probably why I have chosen not to sell the 8, though one like that would likely bring a nice premium.
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<< <i>Ooh, ooh, ooh, I know, the one on the right!
Now, what do I win?
The card on the left?
1975 mini's
1954 Wilson Franks
1975 mini's
1954 Wilson Franks
Regarding the 2nd point of going after a quality 8 vs. a gifted 9. Sadly this question was created because a grader didn't really take the proper time to examine a given card and another grader perhaps was to harsh on grading another. The correct answer in this case might be to go after the quality 8? However, the PSA Set Registry is what it is and many collectors are looking to raise their GPA.
Having played this game for close to 8 years now.... I can understand some giving the advise to consider the quality 8 over a higher graded card that may not look as good as the higher graded card. However, there are some things to consider when making this decision. Looks can be deceiving! Just because one example might have better color and slightly better centering doesn't mean the card is a better example overall. The nicer looking card could have flawed edges and or corners? Maybe a scratched surface that can't be detected in a scan? The back of the better example may have flaws that a collector may not be happy with? There are obviously many factors to consider before making the decision to go with the 8 vs. the 9 that at first glance may not look as good as the 8.
The best advise is to get as much information about the card you're considering to purchase. Each card may have certain qualities that allowed it to reach a given grade. The obvious mistakes are usually easy to see and as a buyer I would recommend passing on the mistakes. It's the closer calls that can be tricky. Just because you think it's a better card doesn't always mean that it actually is! Accurate information is your friend when it comes to buying a graded card. Sometimes you need to go beyond the viewing of the card. Don't be afraid to ask questions of the seller before you decide to buy
The mini's could be considered an anomaly within the 70's/modern cards. I collected them for three months before even looking at a population report. Then, another two months before becoming a PSA member; still very focused on the minis...that is the only item I collect.
By the end of last year, I knew the approximate 8 and higher population of each card. This wasn't terribly difficult, because, at the time, we were dealing with small numbers and, for the most part, we still are. Through November of last year, it was basically only the HOF'ers and select other subset cards (i.e. Rookie Pitchers, MVP's, Highlights, etc) had even 100 or more total submissions.
I didn't realize this for awhile, but of all the Topp's major realeases in the decade of the 1970's, the mini's had the least quantity graded (save for the '79 Topps set...and not by much). Certainly the limited release/test marketing of the mini's has some say in this but, even so, the quantities are miniscule compared to the '70-'75 regular issues. I was blown away the first time I looked at the pop report of the '75 regular set and saw basic commons with a total population of 200-300 each! Meanwhile, myself and others were (are) struggling to build sets with populations of 1/4th that amount.
With that said, let's get to your question...what is a low pop 9? Well, I don't believe there is a cut and dried answer to that. Its become clear to me that the population may or may not drive the price. Case and point: #28 Tom Murphy. I consider this to be a relatively difficult card to find with a population of 35 PSA 8's, 11 PSA 9's and no 10's. However, price be damned. When available, the 8's are $6 -$8 each, and a 9 just sold last month for $23.
Now, on the other side of the equation, you can take a #233 Billy Grabarkewitz with a pop of 41 - 8's, 12 - 9's and a single 10, and you're looking at a bill of $20-$30 for the 8 and $100 for the 9.
To summarize, there is many more factors at work, outside of population, determining the desirability of a mini card graded in PSA 9.
Edited to acknowledge that T. Allan submitted a response before mine posted...was not calling him a rookie.
When I first started buying few graded keys to go with my raw sets, I never imagined completing a graded set. It was very, very intimidating. There were really only 2 sellers at the time (4sc and DSL) and you never saw many individual cards at all. The thought of self grading was scary as well. $3-4k in slabs alone, let alone finding cards nice enough. At that time, there were a number of cards that had never seen a 9 and plenty of 8s with pops under 15.
Eventually I decided that I wanted to keep it simple. My goal would be, over time, to build (mixing buying and self submitting) an 8.0 set. It took a long time and was quite hard to do. Especially just finding those last 40 or 50 cards. I eventually self subbed a psa 7 ed goodson for my last card. I then made a new goal of upgrading every card to a min of psa 8 nq. Again, this was a beast, but I got there with patience.
Over time, my goals evolved. I have kept sane by keeping my goals GPA related rather than what # set I have on the registry. Breaking the top 10 was the only goal I ever set from that standpoint, and that was long ago. What I found is that you have no control over those around you and they should not impact how you go about your own set. One day I was 6 and a few weeks later I was 2 for a short while as people blew up and retired sets. They came back and things changed. Che sera sera.
It is a sin that the old thread is gone. It was such an incredible resource. There was a great debate on whether 301 Roberts or 460 NLCS was the tougher 9 and how either would bring $500+. NLCS has remained, but Roberts has become far more accessable. There was speculation as to what it would take to build a 9.0 set. The consensus was $100k. Since that time, Eric, Matty, Henry and Tommy have all accomplished it (I am purposely ignoring MM as his set has always been on another planet).
The Conlon Auction changed a lot. It came at a time where the economy was at its worst and 26 cases hit the market together at the same time as a beautiful lot of 20k raw cards (4 more cases). This caused supply to exceed demand for the first time in my experience, and really built the population of 8s and 9s.
As someone who grades and sells a lot to upgrade his own set, I see a lot. I can tell you that there are at least as many poeple building this set off the registry as on. I am sure some of them lurk here. In my opinion, the base of mini collectors is larger now than it has ever been. For that reason, MM is right, 9s with a pop of 10-15, which would once have been $20~ cards are now routinely selling for $50 to over $100. As a bidder, it is taking some getting used to.
For 8s, there is something of a lag. Low pop for an 8 now is probably 35 and there is demand to support that. We are at a point where a number of new collectors are where we all were once: Coming to grips with shelling out $100+ for Claudell, Burleson, Taveras, etc.. We all think: I am never going to do that. BUT, this set is so damned addicting that we do. And for some of us, even that isn't enough, then we want a 9...It is an evolutionary process.
So, neverending story aside, the definition of low pop has indeed changed as we as a community continue to grow. It has been and will continue to be a neat ride, especially as it has become much, much more economical and realistic to complete this set in 8.
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I agree MiniDuff.....the old thread was a great resource. I'm glad I had the opportunity to read it before I started my set.
My goal with the set is an overall GPA of 8+, all major stars in 8 and above, and no card lower than a PSA 7 (no qualifiers - I don't like them). I'm limiting my 7's to low pop red/yellows and green/yellows that commonly have print defects and go for $25 or more in PSA 8+. I love and appreciate this set more than any other that I've ever collected, but I definitely don't see myself ever shelling out $25+ for a common PSA 8, no matter what. That's me and how I collect. To each is own - that's what's great about this hobby. I'm quite satisfied with those cards in a 7, and to me they commonly look every bit as good as the older 8's and many 9's where, at the time they were graded, PD didn't appear to be such a big issue. All the low pop 8's in my set worth over $25 were submitted in raw form myself. If I ever upgrade to an all 8 or above set, it will be through raw card submissions unless the prices come down (which, as a collector of the set, I hope never happens).
You guys are great! Thanks for sharing your knowledge and time regarding this set.
This is what's it's all about, and what I like most about collecting. The passion it brings out of individuals that truely get what it's all about.
So many similar thoughts as I began my journey into my graded set of Mini's back in 2004. At first it was a simple PSA 8 example of card #145 Ken Holtzman of the A's. A memory of a pitcher I once saw pitch in one of the first games my father took me to back in 1974 in Oakland. I was dabbling around on eBay and realized they sold 1975 Topps Mini baseball cards in these hard cases. Graded by PSA Hmmmm. So I bought the Holtzman card and little did I know at the time.....my journey into this graded set had begun
Having collected these cards as a kid, this sparked my interest. I checked into this PSA grading thing. Then I took a risk and purchased a raw set on eBay that was was made up of 20 or so star PSA 9's and the rest raw cards said to be in PSA 8 or better condition. All individually holdered in card savers. It actually yielded many PSA 8 and 9's roughly 65%-70%. The rest were mostly 7's.
Later I found that I could actually buy an unopened box of these babies! Wow was that an amazing experience! To open the packs again, like when I was just a kid
Populations were a fraction of what they are now. I still have the print out of the complete population report from 2004. I think of all the duplicates I sold for fractions of what they would have gone for today.
My original goal was to put together a PSA 8 mixed with PSA 9's. If I picked up a 10 in grading so be it. I had no plan at that time to get 10's. My first submission was such a success that it appeared I had a pretty good shot at getting to the #1 set on the PSA Registry. #1 at the time was only 85% completed. So a few more unopened boxes, and some purchases on eBay and other auctions and away things began to evolve for my set. By late 2004 early 2005 my set was the first to reach 100% completion. At a GPA of 8.90 my set was awarded Modern Set of the Year by PSA. It was completely unexpected and a great surprise! Then in 2009 PSA made it the first Modern Baseball Set to be placed into the PSA Set Registry HOF.
One could imagine how difficult it was to complete a graded set back in 2004 with the populations so low. My luck, not to much competition in the first few years of my set building. Later that would of course change. Back then the low populations made it difficult to build a high grade set. Now, not only the low populations, but the stiff competition of getting certain cards has made the task more difficult.
Overall it has been a wonderful experience putting together my set. It's great communicating with fellow collectors. Interesting to see the peaks and valleys of competition for these Mini's through the years. I'm thrilled with the fact that the 75 Topps Mini's are admired by so many collectors. There are now over (60) 75 Topps Mini sets to have been started on the PSA Set Registry. I'm sure as Jim mentioned, there are several graded sets being built that are not listed on the registry. New sets are starting all the time.
I agree with Jim, the old 75 Topps Mini thread needs to be returned to this message board. Having over 3,000 entries, it was one of the most popular threads on the message board. Even our new thread has well over 500 entries already. Far to much history and information in the old thread not to have it reinstated!
Continued success to all 75 Topps Mini Collectors..... may your journey be filled with passion
I'm sure we all have enough beef and problems in the real world; I like to read this internet baseball card thread for pleasure.
I always loved all the stats crammed onto the back of that Killebrew.
Just copped a nice raw set from Duff. Can't wait to get it in a binder and page through it every day.
Doug
Liquidating my collection for the 3rd and final time. Time for others to enjoy what I have enjoyed over the last several decades. Money could be put to better use.
Just getting back into mini scene again. Picked up a couple from miniduff on the bay.
The Killebrew is sweet akbd. That and Blyleven are my favorite cards in set.
Still looks like the Bert in PSA 9 is next to impossible. When was last time PSA graded a 9 of that one?
Best of luck with your set!
On another note, I re-read Jim's post and took note of the statement that many start out with the intention of not going above a certain card price, but eventually do because the set is so addicting. You know, he's right. I can see myself raising the bar, or at least be tempted to do so, once I've achieved my present goals. I've already done so already with upgrading stars from 7's to 8's, so I guess don't rule me out of competing for that psa 8 Fred Stanley in the future.
Btw, thanks for sharing your stories on how you all started out with the mini's. It's very interesting how we all started out similarly with the set.
Cheers,
Nick
Not one of my better calls. But knowing my luck, I'd've bought it and the next day two more 9s would've been slabbed
Anyways here are the ones that have remained in my personal collection, after the set sale...
Thanks for the assist!
Darn Matty...those are as sweet as they get!
Further to an earlier point, yes, the 1975 Mini Set-- and Registry Set building across the board I imagine-- gets very addicting. It's in the DNA of the Registry, to potentially foster both competition and a desire to upgrade one's cards. I began with a goal of finding the best graded stars out there, and only wanted the commons in centered 8 quality (preferable raw for a binder). But then inevitably...
1. You get to know all the nuances of the set; you begin to appreciate the rarity of certain commons routinely plagued by printing flaws. So you buy one, then another...
2. You enter all your slabs and stare at all those upgradable slots...and slowly change your goal... "Well, I'm so close to an 8.5, I'll stop there." (Cut to months later...) "Well, I can make a little push to 8.75..."
Before you know it, you're chasing the elusive 9.00 and have spent about 40K more than you ever thought you would, lol!
Great scan of the Brett
any reason why Blyleven is so tough? aren't most o/c top bottom coming out of packs. Would think now he is HOF a few more people might look to grade his cards. Maybe we will see a few more 9's pop for it.
If no one has any objections to it being slightly off the mini topic, I have just scanned a bunch of the HOF cards I've gotten heavily into since selling my set. In that way I guess it is relevant to the mini discussion. I have posted some before on the main forum, but most of the fellow collectors I speak with regularly I know from the mini set.
A Jose Cruz in ANY PSA HOLDER is a cardboard miracle, great card.
My two older cousins got me into card collecting when I was about 8 yrs old. I was born in 76, but was a huge fan of George Brett's game and his cards were always among my favorites.
One day my cousin told me he had been to a flea market and happened upon some 75 cards, including a stack of Bretts, but he balked at buying them when he had them in hand-- he thought there was "something wrong" with them: they were way smaller than average.
Of course we were just little kids and the minis were not prevalent in Brooklyn and Staten Island. Anyways, he shortly thereafter found they were legit, and we got all into the minis.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
I still do believe wholeheartedly that there are 9s out there hiding in PSA 8 slabs.
It would be a great card to hoard in strong 8s, then crack them all and resubmit in hopes of the elusive 9.
I have seen and handled some beautiful 8s-- that were superior to the one PSA 9 I almost bought back in the day, hands down.
I think the rich color of the Blyleven lends itself to easily detectable corner touches; any hint of white and they ding it down to an 8. They are very harsh on this card.
Great stories of collecting Minis. Keep em comin
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appears my attempt to load scan failed? How is it you get such big scans on this thread and mine says file to big to load and it's a tiny picture? A little help please
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While not quite on a par with "who watches the Watchmen", I had an interesting experience this week. I was running low on bubble wrap and BJs hasn't had it in a while. I broke down and ordered a boxed roll from Amazon.
It came the other day. Doubled boxed. With protective wrapping inside the box...
I looked at it for a few seconds and just started laughing.
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