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Heritages owns 30% of NGC
homerunhall
Posts: 2,498 ✭✭✭
I was reading Scott Travers' new book, The Coin Collectors Survival Manual, 7th edition, and on page 147 it mentions the Jim Halperin and Steve Ivy (the owners of Heritage) owned 24.254% of NGC as of 2005, but in recent years have increased their ownership position to 30.3%.
I knew that Jim and Steve and/or Heritage owned about 30% of NGC, but I just wondered if everybody else knew that. I'm not saying there's anything wrong with that. In fact, coin dealers, including me, own shares of Collectors Universe, the PCGS parent company. PCGS (Collectors Universe) is a public company and anyone can buy the shares. So Heritage (or actually the owners of Heritage) owning a huge stake in NGC is not neccessarily good or bad. But I don't think everyone knows that the world's largest coin dealer owns 30% of the a major grading service.
So there's the information. Make of it what you wish.
hrh
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Now, on the other hand, I could see why PCGS might not like seeing a major customer like Heritage having such a great incentive to submit coins to NGC instead of PCGS.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
"Seu cabra da peste,
"Sou Mangueira......."
<< <i>I was wondering why most of their Jefferson nickels lately have been in NGC edge view slabs - now I know. >>
No you don't. Why does any dealer submit to PCGS over NGC or NGC over PCGS? If one service were clearly superior in every regard (for instance, suppose even a tighter grade would always sell for more, the turnaround time is better, the cost is less, etc.) then no other service would be used or needed. Submitting to any particular service has to the submitter some perceived advantages over the other services, and certainly there is no way to prove causality in this case.
What am I saying... I can't even seem to afford the coins I like anymore
Carry on.
<< <i>It's old news. >>
That was my thought, as well.
<< <i>
<< <i>I was wondering why most of their Jefferson nickels lately have been in NGC edge view slabs - now I know. >>
No you don't. Why does any dealer submit to PCGS over NGC or NGC over PCGS? If one service were clearly superior in every regard (for instance, suppose even a tighter grade would always sell for more, the turnaround time is better, the cost is less, etc.) then no other service would be used or needed. Submitting to any particular service has to the submitter some perceived advantages over the other services, and certainly there is no way to prove causality in this case. >>
Well put. I use both services depending on my need.
Rampant currency debasement will be the most important investment trend of this decade, and it will devastate most people.
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<< <i>So, David, what's the reason for mentioning that now, as opposed to some other time during the past 5 years? I can't help but think that something large and/or interesting must be brewing. >>
That was my first thought too. Why mention it now? Something in the works?
Lance.
<< <i>So, David, what's the reason for mentioning that now, as opposed to some other time during the past 5 years? I can't help but think that something large and/or interesting must be brewing. >>
Yeah, I'm trying to read between the lines as well.
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>So, David, what's the reason for mentioning that now, as opposed to some other time during the past 5 years? I can't help but think that something large and/or interesting must be brewing. >>
ahhh yeah. The Mark Feld of the good old days.
<< <i>So, David, what's the reason for mentioning that now, as opposed to some other time during the past 5 years? I can't help but think that something large and/or interesting must be brewing. >>
Maybe he was simply bragging that he read a book?
but I don't buy NGC coins , or at least I don't 98% of the time .
so it really don't mean a hoot to me
humm , I wonder why I don't buy NGC coins ............,
I don't see any problem with Heritage owning such a large chunk of NGC.
In fact , Mr. Simmons is the 4th largest holder of C.U. stock
<< <i>So, David, what's the reason for mentioning that now, as opposed to some other time during the past 5 years? I can't help but think that something large and/or interesting must be brewing. >>
Mark, you should have been a lawyer.
Maybe so. But NGC is probably more profitable and more valuable than CU. And CU has a market cap of $108 million.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
OWNERSHIP PROFILE
Name Total Held
A. Clint Allen, Director of the Board 66,087
Deborah A. Farrington, Director of the Board 25,800
David G. Hall, President & Director of the Board 990,733
Michael J. McConnell, CEO & Director of the Board 111,725
A.J. Bert Moyer, Director of the Board 30,200
Van D. Simmons, Director of the Board 244,270
Bruce A. Stevens, Director of the Board 24,700
Joseph J. Wallace, CFO 85,590
<< <i>Who are the major share holders of PCGS? >>
A. Clint Allen, Director of the Board 66,087
Deborah A. Farrington, Director of the Board 25,800
David G. Hall, President & Director of the Board 990,733
Michael J. McConnell, CEO & Director of the Board 111,725
A.J. Bert Moyer, Director of the Board 30,200
Van D. Simmons, Director of the Board 244,270
Bruce A. Stevens, Director of the Board 24,700
edited for spelling.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Thanks for the teaser, Mr. Hall!
<< <i>What percentage of Collectors Universe does the big player from Houston own? That information is just as relevant. >>
As of Dec 2010 (source Yahoo Finance) it is reported that Kenneth Duncan owned 1,200,000 odd shares............ the largest single shareholder. I believe that number has changed in 2011. Yes, it seems smoewhat as relevant. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>What percentage of Collectors Universe does the big player from Houston own? That information is just as relevant. >>
As of Dec 2010 (source Yahoo Finance) it is reported that Kenneth Duncan owned 1,200,000 odd shares............ the largest single shareholder. I believe that number has changed in 2011. Yes, it seems smoewhat as relevant. MJ >>
That's almost equal to all the shares owned by all the Board members (of CU, not the U.S. Coin Forum)!
<< <i>.......It is news to me ,.. and it doesn't sit very well with me . >>
Why not?
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade.
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. >>
What if graders at a third party grading company are all dealers?
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. >>
What about one of the largest submitter of coins (if not the largest) being the largest shareholder in that grading company.
CU is not supposed to know who the submitter is and the same at NGC. So in theory it would not matter, right?
Just sayin............MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>
<< <i>So, David, what's the reason for mentioning that now, as opposed to some other time during the past 5 years? I can't help but think that something large and/or interesting must be brewing. >>
That was my first thought too. Why mention it now? Something in the works?
Lance. >>
Great question! Can't wait to see the answer.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
buy the coin, not the holder!
<< <i>
<< <i>What percentage of Collectors Universe does the big player from Houston own? That information is just as relevant. >>
As of Dec 2010 (source Yahoo Finance) it is reported that Kenneth Duncan owned 1,200,000 odd shares............ the largest single shareholder. I believe that number has changed in 2011. Yes, it seems smoewhat as relevant. MJ >>
This is the block of stock that Roy Disney (nephew of Walt) owned though his investment fund, Shamrock Holdings. He wanted
CU broken up and sold off.
But on Dec 16, 2009, Disney died at Hoag Memorial Hospital in (coinidentally) Newport Beach, California.
I don't believe Heritage owns ANY CU stock.
Not in the list below but also showing up on SEC filings is Marlin Sans
364,000 shares 4.7%
SEC filing of Marlin Sans
Largest CU holders
Major Direct Holders (Forms 3 & 4 and 13G)
Holder Shares Reported
DUNCAN RICHARD KENNETH SR 1,267,274 Dec 22, 2010 the guy from Texas
HALL DAVID G 990,733 Jul 31, 2009 we know who this is
MARLIN SANS 364,000 September 27, 2010 (added by me) Note: he is no longer required to update his holdings as he is under 5%
MCCONNELL MICHAEL J 186,954 Dec 22, 2010 CEO of CU
SIMMONS VAN D 244,270 Nov 19, 2010
WALLACE JOSEPH JOHN 85,590 Jul 19, 2010 CFO of CU
A. Clint Allen, Director of the Board 66,087
A.J. Bert Moyer, Director of the Board 30,200
Deborah A. Farrington, Director of the Board 25,800
Bruce A. Stevens, Director of the Board 24,700
Top Institutional Holders
Holder Shares % Out Value* Reported
RENAISSANCE TECHNOLOGIES, LLC 418,919 5.34 5,609,325 Sep 30, 2010
DIMENSIONAL FUND ADVISORS LP 276,073 3.52 3,696,617 Sep 30, 2010
BRIDGEWAY CAPITAL MANAGEMENT, INC. 112,960 1.44 1,512,534 Sep 30, 2010
MARXE, AUSTIN W. & GREENHOUSE, DAVID M. 93,241 1.19 1,248,496 Sep 30, 2010
Lapides Asset Management, LLC 83,334 1.06 1,115,842 Sep 30, 2010
VANGUARD GROUP, INC. (THE) 59,506 0.76 796,785 Sep 30, 2010
Bank of New York Mellon Corporation 28,176 0.36 391,646 Dec 31, 2010
Bailard, Inc. 21,800 0.28 291,902 Sep 30, 2010
CALPERS (CALIFORNIA-PUBLIC EMPLOYEES RETIREMENT SYSTEM) 18,000 0.23 250,200 Dec 31, 2010
Winchester Group, Inc. 17,033 0.22 228,071 Sep 30, 2010
Complete SEC list of Institutions:
Full Institutional list
Top Mutual Fund Holders
Holder Shares % Out Value* Reported
BRIDGEWAY FDS INC-ULTRA SMALL COMPANY MARKET FD 69,460 0.88 930,069 Sep 30, 2010
DFA U.S. SMALL CAP SERIES 60,699 0.77 1,028,848 Oct 31, 2010
DFA U.S. MICRO CAP SERIES 49,720 0.63 842,754 Oct 31, 2010
DFA U.S. SMALL CAP VALUE SERIES 44,047 0.56 746,596 Oct 31, 2010
VANGUARD EXTENDED MARKET INDEX FUND 41,451 0.53 555,028 Sep 30, 2010
BRIDGEWAY FDS INC-ULTRA SMALL COMPANY FD 40,000 0.51 535,600 Sep 30, 2010
DFA TAX-MANAGED U.S. SMALL CAP PORTFOLIO 17,633 0.22 298,879 Oct 31, 2010
VANGUARD TOTAL STOCK MARKET INDEX FUND 14,905 0.19 199,577 Sep 30, 2010
DFA U.S. Targeted Value Portfolio 13,784 0.18 233,638 Oct 31, 2010
ISHARES Russell Micro Cap (TM) Index Fund 11,799 0.15 164,006 Dec 31, 2010
Edited to add more info
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>What percentage of Collectors Universe does the big player from Houston own? That information is just as relevant. >>
As of Dec 2010 (source Yahoo Finance) it is reported that Kenneth Duncan owned 1,200,000 odd shares............ the largest single shareholder. I believe that number has changed in 2011. Yes, it seems smoewhat as relevant. MJ >>
This is the block of stock that Roy Disney (nephew of Walt) owned though his investment fund, Shamrock Holdings. He wanted
CU broken up and sold off.
But on Dec 16, 2009, Disney died at Hoag Memorial Hospital in (coinidentally) Newport Beach, California. >>
I don't believe that is the same block of stock. Duncan bought his stock on the open market mostly in the 4's (now almost 14). Shamrock was calling for CU to get bought out at $7. They tendered most of their stock in the $5 tender offer by CU and then sold the rest after that. They probably got out at an average of $6. They totally missed the run up and played this very badly.
As a side note, when the then CEO of CU (now the CEO of APMEX) got a margin call and was forced to sell, David Hall pulled out his wallet and bought in the vicinity of 100,000 shares in the $3 range. This act probably saved the stock from going down to $1 and getting delisted.
<< <i>you sale coins or you grade coins, it should be unlawful to do both ! >>
For a while CU owned B&M but then sold them to Spectrum (then Greg Manning, then Afinsa, now Spectrum) about 5-6 years ago.
I like the current way things are: keep grading and selling separate.
AND, Heritage sells a LOT more than just coins.
PCGS Registries
Box of 20
SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. >>
If Heritage (and by the way, Heritage is owned by more than just Steve Ivy and Jim Halperin) was exerting some influence on the grades coins got, anyone with that information would be someone who could come out with it. I know several of the owners well enough to know that they are smart enough not to hand over their reputation to another individual. That's why you'll never "catch" them doing something unethical.....because they steer far away from that kind of behavior. It's what smart businessmen do, and that's what they are.
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above?
Camelot