This explains why they seem to put so many coins in NGC holders. I don't see this as corrupt, though, since a lot of PCGS top brass are dealers. David Hall Raree Coins has a great inventory and a nice periodic market report. And, as you might expect, they recommend PCGS graded coins pretty much exclusively.
Improperly Cleaned, Our passion for numismatics is Genuine! Now featuring correct spelling.
Coins graders can also be coin dealers and sell coins graded by their own company. Coin dealers can own grading services. Auction companies can own grading services and also be coin dealers. Attorneys and realtors can refer business to a colleague and collect finder's fees. Physicians who refer business to a colleague and collect finder's fees go to jail for accepting kickbacks. Physicians cannot refer business to a lab in which they have an ownership interest. Pharmaceutical companies cannot give trinkets like pens or pads of paper to physicians because it exerts undue influence on their prescribing habits. Go figure!
<< <i>.....please correct me if my memory is wrong ; but wasn't one of PCGS's principles when they were formed that their grader's were forbidden to also deal in coins ..... ? >>
I know NGC strictly forbids graders to deal in the coin market both buying or selling. Im not sure if PCGS also followed that rule but if they did they sure dont now. Sorry PP i hope you can sit down now lol. >>
How do you know that PCGS graders now deal in coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
I couldn't imagine grading coins without being a collector or coins... all collectors of coins tend to sell their coins (frequently or infrequently) making them dealers of coins. I think it's only natural (and acceptable) to think that graders of coins would also sell coins from time-to-time. I see nothing wrong with it... PLUS, I don't think grading is a unilateral sport at PCGS or NGC?
<< <i>.....please correct me if my memory is wrong ; but wasn't one of PCGS's principles when they were formed that their grader's were forbidden to also deal in coins ..... ? >>
I know NGC strictly forbids graders to deal in the coin market both buying or selling. Im not sure if PCGS also followed that rule but if they did they sure dont now. Sorry PP i hope you can sit down now lol. >>
How do you know that PCGS graders now deal in coins? >>
Not sure about the here and now but in the past there were restrictions, can't recall the exact terms. >>
I would hope these rules are still in effect and being strictly enforced.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
There are quite a few part-time PCGS graders that are coin dealers... they probably couldn't afford the pay-cut if they quit dealing and only worked for PCGS full-time...
<< <i>There are quite a few part-time PCGS graders that are coin dealers... they probably couldn't afford the pay-cut if they quit dealing and only worked for PCGS full-time... >>
I don't know how you can be a good grader if you are not out in the market buying and selling, putting your own money on the line that you are able to accurately determine grades.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>I don't know how you can be a good grader if you are not out in the market buying and selling, putting your own money on the line that you are able to accurately determine grades. >>
Gee, I was under the impression that PCGS and NGC have some very good full time graders, who aren't "out in the market buying and selling...".
It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP.
<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
I have 20 PCGS coins all pr70dcams submitted for resubmission guarantee on 12/28/10 they are on receive hold..
I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today...
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared? 20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
Is any one else having this problem?
Think outside the box . Coin collector for 45 years
<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
I have 20 PCGS coins all pr70dcams submitted for resubmission guarantee on 12/28/10 they are on receive hold..
I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today...
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared? 20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
I have 20 PCGS coins all pr70dcams submitted for resubmission guarantee on 12/28/10 they are on receive hold..
I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today...
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared? 20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
Is any one else having this problem? >>
Silvano is that you? >>
Are you really trying to imply that someone who has a gripe with PCGS and expresses it here, could be a defendant in the PCGS lawsuit, who is posting under a fictitious identity? And that the poster in question made up his story, including the order/submission information? If not, what were you trying to tell us?
" have 20 PCGS coins all pr70dcams submitted for resubmission guarantee on 12/28/10 they are on receive hold.. I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today... Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared? 20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared Is any one else having this problem? '
I am confused:
1. You did not explain why they are on "receive hold" - did you not submit them correctly in the first place? 2. Why in the world would you need an attorney to get an answer for you when you could call customer service yourself and have your "receive hold" explained to you. 3. Your coins have been there for about a month. Yet there is no turnaround time guarantee on this type of submission I am aware of. Even if PCGS agreed that some or all of your coins were overgraded, it takes time to investigate true market value on many of these coins and alternatives such as finding you replacement coins to offer to you. I have had these type of submissions take up to 90 days to be resolved and have had no problem with that timing. But, again, the first thing is to submit them properly, which may or may not have happened with the "receive hold" status.
In a nutshell ... why not call Peter in CS Monday and try to figure out your submission problem? And, why the need to post any of this on THIS particular thread? Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
I have 20 PCGS coins all pr70dcams submitted for resubmission guarantee on 12/28/10 they are on receive hold..
I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today...
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared? 20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
Is any one else having this problem? >>
Silvano is that you? >>
Are you really trying to imply that someone who has a gripe with PCGS and expresses it here, could be a defendant in the PCGS lawsuit, who is posting under a fictitious identity? And that the poster in question made up his story, including the order/submission information? If not, what were you trying to tell us? >>
Are you really trying to imply that anyone named Silvano is a defendent in a PCGS lawsuit?
......it must be very tricky to regrade a MS 70 coin ......... a whole can of potential issues could arise once a coin that's judged near perfect comes out of it's holder ......
i sure wouldn't be in any hurry for the process to culminate ........
glad I don't own or plan on owning , any MS 70 coins
<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
"Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP"
I have thousands of dollars in coins tied up and on hold. It might no mean much to a large coin dealer but to me it is important.
Thanks Mark for letting me clear up your questions.
Just want to know why my submission is being held at PCGS and does any one else have the same problem? (not being part of the coin doctor law suit)
I am not involved with the coin doctor suit. In fact I posted on another tread that it should be criminal to do such, with jail time...
These are not factious submissions nor am I a under a factious name. I joined this forum in 2009 as you can see. I have hesitated posting here for over a year
due to the "jumping monkeys and total negative reply's posted by the oral extreme minority.. I see that that has changed thanks to Don.
Except a few snipes here and there from very few posters..
These submissions are mine and have shared them under status for your verification...Here is last years total submissions.
As you can see I have some history submitting (cut and pasted )
Seeing that the Heritage website recently announced coinguy1 (a prolific poster throughout this thread) is now in their employ as both a senior numismatist and consignment director, I am wondering if he would or could shed any further light here or express any further opinions? BTW.....congrats coinguy1 and much success in your new position!
I don't know if I said this earlier, but it seems to me to be a conflict of interest for an coin auction house to own a significant percentage in a TPG whose products it sells.
<< <i>I don't know if I said this earlier, but it seems to me to be a conflict of interest for an coin auction house to own a significant percentage in a TPG whose products it sells. >>
<< <i>I don't know if I said this earlier, but it seems to me to be a conflict of interest for an coin auction house to own a significant percentage in a TPG whose products it sells. >>
I could give you better conflict of interest but I won't lol.
If some form of the reverse were true--say I discovered that a coin grader at NGC owned a stake in an auction house such as Heritage--I'd request a meeting with the FBI immediately. The possibility of wrongdoing just would be too great. I would want to know if any high-grade pieces that had passed in front of that grader's loupe, had found its way over to Heritage through an auction client who knew the grader.
In the Heritage-owning-part-of-NGC situation, there is less room for chicanery, though it certainly presents the possibility of evil. Would Heritage stand to profit by giving NGC-graded coins better descriptions, higher hammer estimations or more prominent places in their catalogues than they would another TPG? Wouldn't that be dishonest to buyers, who have the right to assume that all coins are presented without bias?
I would think that people who own large shares at NGC might wield more influence at NGC, and that their power could emanate outward in unhealthy ways. Would Heritage person who also is a major shareholder at NGC, for example, have an incentive to lobby for more relaxed grading standards of certain high-profile top-pops, so that within a year or two the coins make their way over to Heritage and quickly sell for enormous sums of money? Do similar relationships exist elsewhere in other categories of Heritage's business--do their executives also own 1/3 of PSA's company?
I'm afraid I disagree with David Hall on the "I see nothing wrong" attitude. Auction houses and TPG's are not strange bedfellows, they are regular intimate guests of one another. Each has a vested interest in the success of the other, and when that happens, nasty things can transpire. I'd like to see wisdom and an imaginative view of what can go awry with these relationships. I think that, on general principle, they should prohibit anyone in their employ from having any financial stake in any numismatic entity that buys or sells their products, or conducts commerce with them on any level. I'd tell them it's a big world out there, and to go buy Facebook or something.
David Hall sees nothing potentially going wrong, ever. As a person with many decades of knowledge and experience in business and human nature, he rejects the possibility that something unsavory could arise from these complicated associations. The quote, again, is "I see nothing wrong." He's probably right. The ANA fiasco, counterfeiting and other alarming developments in the business may have me feeling more worried than is warranted about another shoe dropping.
<< <i>If some form of the reverse were true--say I discovered that a coin grader at NGC owned a stake in an auction house such as Heritage--I'd request a meeting with the FBI immediately. The possibility of wrongdoing just would be too great. I would want to know if any high-grade pieces that had passed in front of that grader's loupe, had found its way over to Heritage through an auction client who knew the grader.
In the Heritage-owning-part-of-NGC situation, there is less room for chicanery, though it certainly presents the possibility of evil. Would Heritage stand to profit by giving NGC-graded coins better descriptions, higher hammer estimations or more prominent places in their catalogues than they would another TPG? Wouldn't that be dishonest to buyers, who have the right to assume that all coins are presented without bias?
I would think that people who own large shares at NGC might wield more influence at NGC, and that their power could emanate outward in unhealthy ways. Would Heritage person who also is a major shareholder at NGC, for example, have an incentive to lobby for more relaxed grading standards of certain high-profile top-pops, so that within a year or two the coins make their way over to Heritage and quickly sell for enormous sums of money? Do similar relationships exist elsewhere in other categories of Heritage's business--do their executives also own 1/3 of PSA's company?
I'm afraid I disagree with David Hall on the "I see nothing wrong" attitude. Auction houses and TPG's are not strange bedfellows, they are regular intimate guests of one another. Each has a vested interest in the success of the other, and when that happens, nasty things can transpire. I'd like to see wisdom and an imaginative view of what can go awry with these relationships. I think that, on general principle, they should prohibit anyone in their employ from having any financial stake in any numismatic entity that buys or sells their products, or conducts commerce with them on any level. I'd tell them it's a big world out there, and to go buy Facebook or something.
David Hall sees nothing potentially going wrong, ever. As a person with many decades of knowledge and experience in business and human nature, he rejects the possibility that something unsavory could arise from these complicated associations. The quote, again, is "I see nothing wrong." He's probably right. The ANA fiasco, counterfeiting and other alarming developments in the business may have me feeling more worried than is warranted about another shoe dropping. >>
Pcgs is in the same boat kinda. One of there graders is an owner of heritage. From the pcgs website:
Jim Halperin
Expertise: All U.S. coins. Specialties: Rarities and high-quality coins
Jim Halperin is Co-Chairman and an owner of the world's largest rare coin firm, Heritage Auction Galleries. Jim and the traders under his supervision have transacted billions of dollars in the rare coin business. In the 1970s, Jim was founder and owner of New England Rare Coin Galleries, one of the most influential firms of the decade. In 1983, Jim's business merged with that of his friend and former archrival Steve Ivy to create Heritage Auction Galleries, which would became the world's largest rare coin firm and the third-largest auctioneer (of all things) in the world.
Jim Halperin's coin buying and selling skills are such that he is considered one of the top coin traders of all-time. PCGS founder David Hall once described Jim as the "Michael Jordan of rare coins." Jim's grading skills are such that when PCGS conducted an "open-to-all" "World Series of Grading" contest, Jim finished first in the ultra competitive dealer's division.
Jim's firm Heritage sells more than $700 million a year. Information about Heritage is available at www.HA.com.
<< <i>I don't know if I said this earlier, but it seems to me to be a conflict of interest for an coin auction house to own a significant percentage in a TPG whose products it sells. >>
I could give you better conflict of interest but I won't lol. >>
I will. My understanding is that Heritage bids on their own lots. Pretty sure it's true, I read it here from some reputable members.
But mostly I just avoid them because I can't stand their website search engine and layout.
Jim Halperin is one of the chairmen of Heritage. He is not a grader at PCGS.
All auction companies bid in their own sales, not just Heritage.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>I don't know if I said this earlier, but it seems to me to be a conflict of interest for an coin auction house to own a significant percentage in a TPG whose products it sells. >>
I could give you better conflict of interest but I won't lol. >>
How about NGC extending the first strike deadline an extra month for the 2013 Silver West Point Set, because a big submitter, or owner didn't get their sets from the Mint in time????
Many ways this can and does play out in the real world.
<< <i>Jim Halperin is one of the chairmen of Heritage. He is not a grader at PCGS.
All auction companies bid in their own sales, not just Heritage. >>
Then what does he do at PCGS? >>
That list profiles their "board of experts", not just their graders. The list is not all inclusive as some of their full time graders aren't listed there. That board of experts includes Laura Sperber and Ron Gillio amongst others. Those two are not graders, nor is Don Willis. Frankly I'd be worried if some of those experts actually graded coins for them. As for Jim Halperin, he's too busy running the numismatic and memorabilia divisions of his company to be doing grading stints 1500 miles away. JH still looks at nearly every coin Heritage handles and Heritage handles a lot of coins.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>All auction companies bid in their own sales, not just Heritage. >>
um, not "all" of them... that's what "reserve" prices are for right? Now sure, I know some consignors who wish this were true but in fact they got burnt on a couple lots out of their batch which sold for 10% of retail.
<< <i>All auction companies bid in their own sales, not just Heritage. >>
um, not "all" of them... that's what "reserve" prices are for right? Now sure, I know some consignors who wish this were true but in fact they got burnt on a couple lots out of their batch which sold for 10% of retail. >>
Setting a price reserve and an auction company buying lots using their own bidder account are not the same. Reserves are normally set by the consignor. Some lots may not have reserves while other lots may have very low reserves. When an auction company is willing to pay an amount higher than the reserve or high bid for a lot then they will bid on a lot on their own behalf.
The fine print in the catalog terms and conditions should make mention of the in-house buyer details.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
What I meant was, the only reason I can think of for auction firms to bid on their own lots, would be to guarantee the consignor a certain amount of income. Auction firms are in the business of collecting fees not inventory. They usually could care less what they are selling, long as it's valuable. Some will encourage consignors to set a reserve price while others may simply let their in-house bidders aka shill-ers do the work.
<< <i>What I meant was, the only reason I can think of for auction firms to bid on their own lots, would be to guarantee the consignor a certain amount of income. Auction firms are in the business of collecting fees not inventory. They usually could care less what they are selling, long as it's valuable. Some will encourage consignors to set a reserve price while others may simply let their in-house bidders aka shill-ers do the work.
Or we could just be shopping at different houses. >>
Most auction companies have or are affiliated with a division or company that maintain an inventory and directly buy and sell. If they believe they can make more profit buying the lot outright (they have a customer for it, they feel they can crack out and upgrade, etc.) versus collecting on fees then they will buy a lot on their own behalf.
Speaking of house inventory, most people would be surprised to learn how many lots out of a typical auction are owned and consigned by the auctioning company.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>You know, you're right I mean Stacks has a storefront in NYC and Stephen Album has their web store, and many other firms have some retail.
I just figured their consignors got to choose auction vs. retail when submitting their items.
Anyway, ... Heritage ... where this conversation began ... does not have a retail division do they? >>
Yes they do and they have impressive clientele.
Follow me on Twitter @wtcgroup Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
One can't help but wonder if Heritage "suggests" a grading service to holders of old large raw collections such as the Eric P Newman Collection . . .
Really can't blame them . . .
HH
Need the following OBW rolls to complete my 46-64 Roosevelt roll set: 1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S. Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
When a business invest into another business it is because they see value through growth and valuation. I am curious of the value seen in NGC vs Collectors Universe.
<< <i>If some form of the reverse were true--say I discovered that a coin grader at NGC owned a stake in an auction house such as Heritage--I'd request a meeting with the FBI immediately. The possibility of wrongdoing just would be too great. I would want to know if any high-grade pieces that had passed in front of that grader's loupe, had found its way over to Heritage through an auction client who knew the grader.
In the Heritage-owning-part-of-NGC situation, there is less room for chicanery, though it certainly presents the possibility of evil. Would Heritage stand to profit by giving NGC-graded coins better descriptions, higher hammer estimations or more prominent places in their catalogues than they would another TPG? Wouldn't that be dishonest to buyers, who have the right to assume that all coins are presented without bias?
I would think that people who own large shares at NGC might wield more influence at NGC, and that their power could emanate outward in unhealthy ways. Would Heritage person who also is a major shareholder at NGC, for example, have an incentive to lobby for more relaxed grading standards of certain high-profile top-pops, so that within a year or two the coins make their way over to Heritage and quickly sell for enormous sums of money? Do similar relationships exist elsewhere in other categories of Heritage's business--do their executives also own 1/3 of PSA's company?
I'm afraid I disagree with David Hall on the "I see nothing wrong" attitude. Auction houses and TPG's are not strange bedfellows, they are regular intimate guests of one another. Each has a vested interest in the success of the other, and when that happens, nasty things can transpire. I'd like to see wisdom and an imaginative view of what can go awry with these relationships. I think that, on general principle, they should prohibit anyone in their employ from having any financial stake in any numismatic entity that buys or sells their products, or conducts commerce with them on any level. I'd tell them it's a big world out there, and to go buy Facebook or something.
David Hall sees nothing potentially going wrong, ever. As a person with many decades of knowledge and experience in business and human nature, he rejects the possibility that something unsavory could arise from these complicated associations. The quote, again, is "I see nothing wrong." He's probably right. The ANA fiasco, counterfeiting and other alarming developments in the business may have me feeling more worried than is warranted about another shoe dropping. >>
<< <i>17% of my portfolio is in CLCT. Up 60% in less than a year. If only my PCGS graded coins would do so well. Although, I'm to blame. I submitted them. >>
Good for you. I am surprised that more of the collectors here don't buy some CLCT. They submit 100's of coins every year but don't own any. Why not own enough so that the dividend pays for your Collectors Club, Coin Facts, and submission fees? Then instead of complaining about long submission times, they would realize they are benefitting from that. I've made enough off CLCT to literally put my kids through college.
Comments
<< <i>David does not grade coins for PCGS, nor does Kenny. Steve and Jim do not grade coins for NGC, either. >>
David Hall does in fact grade coins at PCGS
He grades the guarantee resubmission coins. I have an email from David Hall stating that fact....
<< <i>I don't get it. What is the point of this thread if not an attempt to cast the competition in a negative light? >>
Sure looks that way to me.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
That depends on the profession.
Coins graders can also be coin dealers and sell coins graded by their own company.
Coin dealers can own grading services.
Auction companies can own grading services and also be coin dealers.
Attorneys and realtors can refer business to a colleague and collect finder's fees.
Physicians who refer business to a colleague and collect finder's fees go to jail for accepting kickbacks.
Physicians cannot refer business to a lab in which they have an ownership interest.
Pharmaceutical companies cannot give trinkets like pens or pads of paper to physicians because it exerts undue influence on their prescribing habits.
Go figure!
<< <i>
<< <i>.....please correct me if my memory is wrong ; but wasn't one of PCGS's principles when they were formed that their grader's were forbidden to also deal in coins ..... ? >>
I know NGC strictly forbids graders to deal in the coin market both buying or selling. Im not sure if PCGS also followed that rule but if they did they sure dont now. Sorry PP i hope you can sit down now lol. >>
How do you know that PCGS graders now deal in coins?
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>.....please correct me if my memory is wrong ; but wasn't one of PCGS's principles when they were formed that their grader's were forbidden to also deal in coins ..... ? >>
I know NGC strictly forbids graders to deal in the coin market both buying or selling. Im not sure if PCGS also followed that rule but if they did they sure dont now. Sorry PP i hope you can sit down now lol. >>
How do you know that PCGS graders now deal in coins? >>
Not sure about the here and now but in the past there were restrictions, can't recall the exact terms. >>
I would hope these rules are still in effect and being strictly enforced.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
they probably couldn't afford the pay-cut if they quit dealing and only worked for PCGS full-time...
<< <i>There are quite a few part-time PCGS graders that are coin dealers...
they probably couldn't afford the pay-cut if they quit dealing and only worked for PCGS full-time... >>
Really, I heard graders make upwards of 300K .
<< <i>I don't know how you can be a good grader if you are not out in the market buying and selling, putting your own money on the line that you are able to accurately determine grades. >>
Gee, I was under the impression that PCGS and NGC have some very good full time graders, who aren't "out in the market buying and selling...".
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP.
<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
I have 20 PCGS coins all pr70dcams submitted for resubmission guarantee on 12/28/10 they are on receive hold..
I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today...
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared?
20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
Is any one else having this problem?
<< <i>
<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
I have 20 PCGS coins all pr70dcams submitted for resubmission guarantee on 12/28/10 they are on receive hold..
I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today...
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared?
20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
Is any one else having this problem? >>
Silvano is that you?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
I have 20 PCGS coins all pr70dcams submitted for resubmission guarantee on 12/28/10 they are on receive hold..
I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today...
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared?
20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
Is any one else having this problem? >>
Silvano is that you? >>
Are you really trying to imply that someone who has a gripe with PCGS and expresses it here, could be a defendant in the PCGS lawsuit, who is posting under a fictitious identity? And that the poster in question made up his story, including the order/submission information? If not, what were you trying to tell us?
I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today...
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared?
20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
Is any one else having this problem? '
I am confused:
1. You did not explain why they are on "receive hold" - did you not submit them correctly in the first place?
2. Why in the world would you need an attorney to get an answer for you when you could call customer service yourself and have your "receive hold" explained to you.
3. Your coins have been there for about a month. Yet there is no turnaround time guarantee on this type of submission I am aware of. Even if PCGS agreed that some or all of your coins were overgraded, it takes time to investigate true market value on many of these coins and alternatives such as finding you replacement coins to offer to you. I have had these type of submissions take up to 90 days to be resolved and have had no problem with that timing. But, again, the first thing is to submit them properly, which may or may not have happened with the "receive hold" status.
In a nutshell ... why not call Peter in CS Monday and try to figure out your submission problem? And, why the need to post any of this on THIS particular thread?
Wondercoin
<< <i>
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<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
I have 20 PCGS coins all pr70dcams submitted for resubmission guarantee on 12/28/10 they are on receive hold..
I nor my lawyer have been able to get an answer from PCGS as of today...
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared?
20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
Is any one else having this problem? >>
Silvano is that you? >>
Are you really trying to imply that someone who has a gripe with PCGS and expresses it here, could be a defendant in the PCGS lawsuit, who is posting under a fictitious identity? And that the poster in question made up his story, including the order/submission information? If not, what were you trying to tell us? >>
Are you really trying to imply that anyone named Silvano is a defendent in a PCGS lawsuit?
i sure wouldn't be in any hurry for the process to culminate ........
glad I don't own or plan on owning , any MS 70 coins
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It has been mentioned that the ownership is not disclosed on the website and some have expressed that they find the appearance of impropriety. That would be corrected with disclosure on the Heritage Website. A footnote in the auction terms boilerplate should suffice. Actual impropriety would seem, as already pointed out, quite contrary to the overall interests of both Heritage and NGC.
Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP. >>
"Like others, I am curious as to what is being teed up by the OP"
I have thousands of dollars in coins tied up and on hold. It might no mean much to a large coin dealer but to me it is important.
Thanks Mark for letting me clear up your questions.
Just want to know why my submission is being held at PCGS and does any one else have the same problem? (not being part of the coin doctor law suit)
I am not involved with the coin doctor suit. In fact I posted on another tread that it should be criminal to do such, with jail time...
These are not factious submissions nor am I a under a factious name. I joined this forum in 2009 as you can see. I have hesitated posting here for over a year
due to the "jumping monkeys and total negative reply's posted by the oral extreme minority.. I see that that has changed thanks to Don.
Except a few snipes here and there from very few posters..
These submissions are mine and have shared them under status for your verification...Here is last years total submissions.
As you can see I have some history submitting (cut and pasted )
Order # Submission # Date Received Date Shipped Status Shared
20464197 4356757 12/28/2010 N/A Receive Hold Shared
20454869 4329924 11/18/2010 12/29/2010 Shipped Shared
20454721 4329925 11/18/2010 12/29/2010 Shipped Shared
20454080 4340130 11/16/2010 12/6/2010 Shipped Shared
20453806 4329926 11/15/2010 12/29/2010 Shipped Shared
20448680 9124476 10/27/2010 12/1/2010 Shipped Shared
20443696 4234594 10/7/2010 11/3/2010 Shipped Private
20437466 9123522 9/15/2010 10/13/2010 Shipped Private
20433801 4223327 9/2/2010 11/12/2010 Shipped Private
20433798 4300858 9/2/2010 11/12/2010 Shipped Private
20431087 4291859 8/24/2010 9/27/2010 Shipped Private
20413327 4238809 6/22/2010 7/21/2010 Shipped Private
20405990 4231279 5/25/2010 7/6/2010 Shipped Private
20402013 4233915 5/10/2010 7/12/2010 Shipped Private
20399615 4153100 5/3/2010 6/9/2010 Shipped Shared
20399614 4184938 5/3/2010 6/11/2010 Shipped Shared
20399269 4187170 4/29/2010 5/27/2010 Shipped Private
20399268 4187171 4/29/2010 5/13/2010 Shipped Private
20399228 106314 4/29/2010 5/19/2010 Shipped Private
20396662 4187169 4/21/2010 5/20/2010 Shipped Private
Text
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<< <i>It's old news. >>
That was my thought, as well.
meaning..... hope this is get shoved away quick
<< <i>I don't know if I said this earlier, but it seems to me to be a conflict of interest for an coin auction house to own a significant percentage in a TPG whose products it sells. >>
Why?
peacockcoins
<< <i>I don't know if I said this earlier, but it seems to me to be a conflict of interest for an coin auction house to own a significant percentage in a TPG whose products it sells. >>
I could give you better conflict of interest but I won't lol.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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In the Heritage-owning-part-of-NGC situation, there is less room for chicanery, though it certainly presents the possibility of evil. Would Heritage stand to profit by giving NGC-graded coins better descriptions, higher hammer estimations or more prominent places in their catalogues than they would another TPG? Wouldn't that be dishonest to buyers, who have the right to assume that all coins are presented without bias?
I would think that people who own large shares at NGC might wield more influence at NGC, and that their power could emanate outward in unhealthy ways. Would Heritage person who also is a major shareholder at NGC, for example, have an incentive to lobby for more relaxed grading standards of certain high-profile top-pops, so that within a year or two the coins make their way over to Heritage and quickly sell for enormous sums of money? Do similar relationships exist elsewhere in other categories of Heritage's business--do their executives also own 1/3 of PSA's company?
I'm afraid I disagree with David Hall on the "I see nothing wrong" attitude. Auction houses and TPG's are not strange bedfellows, they are regular intimate guests of one another. Each has a vested interest in the success of the other, and when that happens, nasty things can transpire. I'd like to see wisdom and an imaginative view of what can go awry with these relationships. I think that, on general principle, they should prohibit anyone in their employ from having any financial stake in any numismatic entity that buys or sells their products, or conducts commerce with them on any level. I'd tell them it's a big world out there, and to go buy Facebook or something.
David Hall sees nothing potentially going wrong, ever. As a person with many decades of knowledge and experience in business and human nature, he rejects the possibility that something unsavory could arise from these complicated associations. The quote, again, is "I see nothing wrong." He's probably right. The ANA fiasco, counterfeiting and other alarming developments in the business may have me feeling more worried than is warranted about another shoe dropping.
<< <i>If some form of the reverse were true--say I discovered that a coin grader at NGC owned a stake in an auction house such as Heritage--I'd request a meeting with the FBI immediately. The possibility of wrongdoing just would be too great. I would want to know if any high-grade pieces that had passed in front of that grader's loupe, had found its way over to Heritage through an auction client who knew the grader.
In the Heritage-owning-part-of-NGC situation, there is less room for chicanery, though it certainly presents the possibility of evil. Would Heritage stand to profit by giving NGC-graded coins better descriptions, higher hammer estimations or more prominent places in their catalogues than they would another TPG? Wouldn't that be dishonest to buyers, who have the right to assume that all coins are presented without bias?
I would think that people who own large shares at NGC might wield more influence at NGC, and that their power could emanate outward in unhealthy ways. Would Heritage person who also is a major shareholder at NGC, for example, have an incentive to lobby for more relaxed grading standards of certain high-profile top-pops, so that within a year or two the coins make their way over to Heritage and quickly sell for enormous sums of money? Do similar relationships exist elsewhere in other categories of Heritage's business--do their executives also own 1/3 of PSA's company?
I'm afraid I disagree with David Hall on the "I see nothing wrong" attitude. Auction houses and TPG's are not strange bedfellows, they are regular intimate guests of one another. Each has a vested interest in the success of the other, and when that happens, nasty things can transpire. I'd like to see wisdom and an imaginative view of what can go awry with these relationships. I think that, on general principle, they should prohibit anyone in their employ from having any financial stake in any numismatic entity that buys or sells their products, or conducts commerce with them on any level. I'd tell them it's a big world out there, and to go buy Facebook or something.
David Hall sees nothing potentially going wrong, ever. As a person with many decades of knowledge and experience in business and human nature, he rejects the possibility that something unsavory could arise from these complicated associations. The quote, again, is "I see nothing wrong." He's probably right. The ANA fiasco, counterfeiting and other alarming developments in the business may have me feeling more worried than is warranted about another shoe dropping. >>
Pcgs is in the same boat kinda. One of there graders is an owner of heritage. From the pcgs website:
Jim Halperin
Expertise: All U.S. coins.
Specialties: Rarities and high-quality coins
Jim Halperin is Co-Chairman and an owner of the world's largest rare coin firm, Heritage Auction Galleries. Jim and the traders under his supervision have transacted billions of dollars in the rare coin business. In the 1970s, Jim was founder and owner of New England Rare Coin Galleries, one of the most influential firms of the decade. In 1983, Jim's business merged with that of his friend and former archrival Steve Ivy to create Heritage Auction Galleries, which would became the world's largest rare coin firm and the third-largest auctioneer (of all things) in the world.
Jim Halperin's coin buying and selling skills are such that he is considered one of the top coin traders of all-time. PCGS founder David Hall once described Jim as the "Michael Jordan of rare coins." Jim's grading skills are such that when PCGS conducted an "open-to-all" "World Series of Grading" contest, Jim finished first in the ultra competitive dealer's division.
Jim's firm Heritage sells more than $700 million a year. Information about Heritage is available at www.HA.com.
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<< <i>I don't know if I said this earlier, but it seems to me to be a conflict of interest for an coin auction house to own a significant percentage in a TPG whose products it sells. >>
I could give you better conflict of interest but I won't lol. >>
I will. My understanding is that Heritage bids on their own lots. Pretty sure it's true, I read it here from some reputable members.
But mostly I just avoid them because I can't stand their website search engine and layout.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
All auction companies bid in their own sales, not just Heritage.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>Jim Halperin is one of the chairmen of Heritage. He is not a grader at PCGS.
All auction companies bid in their own sales, not just Heritage. >>
Then what does he do at PCGS?
<< <i>I don't know if I said this earlier, but it seems to me to be a conflict of interest for an coin auction house to own a significant percentage in a TPG whose products it sells. >>
I could give you better conflict of interest but I won't lol. >>
How about NGC extending the first strike deadline an extra month for the 2013 Silver West Point Set, because a big submitter, or owner didn't get their sets from the Mint in time????
Many ways this can and does play out in the real world.
Cashback from Mr. Rebates
<< <i>
<< <i>Jim Halperin is one of the chairmen of Heritage. He is not a grader at PCGS.
All auction companies bid in their own sales, not just Heritage. >>
Then what does he do at PCGS? >>
That list profiles their "board of experts", not just their graders. The list is not all inclusive as some of their full time graders aren't listed there. That board of experts includes Laura Sperber and Ron Gillio amongst others. Those two are not graders, nor is Don Willis. Frankly I'd be worried if some of those experts actually graded coins for them. As for Jim Halperin, he's too busy running the numismatic and memorabilia divisions of his company to be doing grading stints 1500 miles away. JH still looks at nearly every coin Heritage handles and Heritage handles a lot of coins.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
<< <i>All auction companies bid in their own sales, not just Heritage. >>
um, not "all" of them... that's what "reserve" prices are for right? Now sure, I know some consignors who wish this were true but in fact they got burnt on a couple lots out of their batch which sold for 10% of retail.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
<< <i>
<< <i>All auction companies bid in their own sales, not just Heritage. >>
um, not "all" of them... that's what "reserve" prices are for right? Now sure, I know some consignors who wish this were true but in fact they got burnt on a couple lots out of their batch which sold for 10% of retail. >>
Setting a price reserve and an auction company buying lots using their own bidder account are not the same. Reserves are normally set by the consignor. Some lots may not have reserves while other lots may have very low reserves. When an auction company is willing to pay an amount higher than the reserve or high bid for a lot then they will bid on a lot on their own behalf.
The fine print in the catalog terms and conditions should make mention of the in-house buyer details.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Or we could just be shopping at different houses.
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
<< <i>What I meant was, the only reason I can think of for auction firms to bid on their own lots, would be to guarantee the consignor a certain amount of income. Auction firms are in the business of collecting fees not inventory. They usually could care less what they are selling, long as it's valuable. Some will encourage consignors to set a reserve price while others may simply let their in-house bidders aka shill-ers do the work.
Or we could just be shopping at different houses. >>
Most auction companies have or are affiliated with a division or company that maintain an inventory and directly buy and sell. If they believe they can make more profit buying the lot outright (they have a customer for it, they feel they can crack out and upgrade, etc.) versus collecting on fees then they will buy a lot on their own behalf.
Speaking of house inventory, most people would be surprised to learn how many lots out of a typical auction are owned and consigned by the auctioning company.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
I just figured their consignors got to choose auction vs. retail when submitting their items.
Anyway, ... Heritage ... where this conversation began ... does not have a retail division do they?
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
<< <i>You know, you're right I mean Stacks has a storefront in NYC and Stephen Album has their web store, and many other firms have some retail.
I just figured their consignors got to choose auction vs. retail when submitting their items.
Anyway, ... Heritage ... where this conversation began ... does not have a retail division do they? >>
Yes they do and they have impressive clientele.
Authorized dealer for PCGS, PCGS Currency, NGC, NCS, PMG, CAC. Member of the PNG, ANA. Member dealer of CoinPlex and CCE/FACTS as "CH5"
Really can't blame them . . .
HH
1947-P & D; 1948-D; 1949-P & S; 1950-D & S; and 1952-S.
Any help locating any of these OBW rolls would be gratefully appreciated!
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So there's the information. Make of it what you wish.
hrh >>
Maybe someone is a little bitter they didn't put the money in CU!!!
jk
Interests:
Pre-Jump Grade Project
Toned Commemoratives
<< <i>..... I am curious of the value seen in NGC vs Collectors Universe. >>
As NGC is privately held, it is not required to make its books available to the public.
<< <i>If some form of the reverse were true--say I discovered that a coin grader at NGC owned a stake in an auction house such as Heritage--I'd request a meeting with the FBI immediately. The possibility of wrongdoing just would be too great. I would want to know if any high-grade pieces that had passed in front of that grader's loupe, had found its way over to Heritage through an auction client who knew the grader.
In the Heritage-owning-part-of-NGC situation, there is less room for chicanery, though it certainly presents the possibility of evil. Would Heritage stand to profit by giving NGC-graded coins better descriptions, higher hammer estimations or more prominent places in their catalogues than they would another TPG? Wouldn't that be dishonest to buyers, who have the right to assume that all coins are presented without bias?
I would think that people who own large shares at NGC might wield more influence at NGC, and that their power could emanate outward in unhealthy ways. Would Heritage person who also is a major shareholder at NGC, for example, have an incentive to lobby for more relaxed grading standards of certain high-profile top-pops, so that within a year or two the coins make their way over to Heritage and quickly sell for enormous sums of money? Do similar relationships exist elsewhere in other categories of Heritage's business--do their executives also own 1/3 of PSA's company?
I'm afraid I disagree with David Hall on the "I see nothing wrong" attitude. Auction houses and TPG's are not strange bedfellows, they are regular intimate guests of one another. Each has a vested interest in the success of the other, and when that happens, nasty things can transpire. I'd like to see wisdom and an imaginative view of what can go awry with these relationships. I think that, on general principle, they should prohibit anyone in their employ from having any financial stake in any numismatic entity that buys or sells their products, or conducts commerce with them on any level. I'd tell them it's a big world out there, and to go buy Facebook or something.
David Hall sees nothing potentially going wrong, ever. As a person with many decades of knowledge and experience in business and human nature, he rejects the possibility that something unsavory could arise from these complicated associations. The quote, again, is "I see nothing wrong." He's probably right. The ANA fiasco, counterfeiting and other alarming developments in the business may have me feeling more worried than is warranted about another shoe dropping. >>
What this Guy said.
(30% of CLCT would be worth $42 mil)
The last thing Heritage would want to do
is tarnish the NGC (or their own) reputation for integrity.
Both Heritage and NGC are in businesses where reputation is
everything.
<< <i>17% of my portfolio is in CLCT. Up 60% in less than a year. If only my PCGS graded coins would do so well.
Good for you. I am surprised that more of the collectors here don't buy some CLCT. They submit 100's of coins every year but don't own any. Why not own enough so that the dividend pays for your Collectors Club, Coin Facts, and submission fees? Then instead of complaining about long submission times, they would realize they are benefitting from that. I've made enough off CLCT to literally put my kids through college.