<< <i>This is the block of stock that Roy Disney (nephew of Walt) owned though his investment fund, Shamrock Holdings. He wanted CU broken up and sold off.
But on Dec 16, 2009, Disney died at Hoag Memorial Hospital in (coinidentally) Newport Beach, California. >>
<< <i>This is the block of stock that Roy Disney (nephew of Walt) owned though his investment fund, Shamrock Holdings. He wanted CU broken up and sold off.
But on Dec 16, 2009, Disney died at Hoag Memorial Hospital in (coinidentally) Newport Beach, California. >>
Is it really a coincidence? >>
Are you implying that CU somehow caused his gastric cancer?
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor. Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous" grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
I didn't mention NGC.
Frank Provasek - PCGS Authorized Dealer, Life Member ANA, Member TNA. www.frankcoins.com
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor. Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous" grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
This is probably the first time I've ever agreed with Frankcoins on anything, and probably the last. Lets just say that when there is a conflict between money and independence as an ideal, the money has a greater chance of prevailing. There should be a separation of powers between the grading services, the auction houses, and the dealers, just to prevent smoe nudging and winking from taking place.
This is probably the first time I've ever agreed with Frankcoins on anything, and probably the last. Lets just say that when there is a conflict between money and independence as an ideal, the money has a greater chance of prevailing. There should be a separation of powers between the grading services, the auction houses, and the dealers, just to prevent smoe nudging and winking from taking place. >>
Quick, check your tires. I agreed with Frank once and I got a flat tire about an hour later. For real..........Better safe then sorry. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
D&B shows NGC as a $25M revenue company with 120 employees as of 2009 (CU is a $40M+ revenue company with 190 employees)
Key Executives Chief Executive Officer: Mr Steven Eichenbaum President: Mr Richard Montgomery Chief Operating Officer: Ms Lisa Criestoff Chief Financial Officer: Ms Lisa Creisstoff Chairman: Mr Mark Salzberg
Key Financials News Currency: USD Sales: 25.00 m Sales Growth: N/A Sales Indicator: Actual Employees: 120 Employees Growth (3 year): 50.00% Employee Indicator: Actual Fiscal Year-End Date: 2009
This is probably the first time I've ever agreed with Frankcoins on anything, and probably the last. Lets just say that when there is a conflict between money and independence as an ideal, the money has a greater chance of prevailing. There should be a separation of powers between the grading services, the auction houses, and the dealers, just to prevent smoe nudging and winking from taking place. >>
Quick, check your tires. I agreed with Frank once and I got a flat tire about an hour later. For real..........Better safe then sorry. MJ >>
Just what I need. I'll check them at 6:36 (Pacific Time).
PCGS is a takeover candidate. Too much cash on hand. Sorry, but that is the facts. Sears was taken over by lowly K-Mart (who had just come out of bankruptcy) only because Sears was sitting on some 10-15 billion in cash. Made it a ripe target. Now it's Sears Holdings and you can get Kenmore appliance at K-Mart.
Business is what it is.
bob
PS: just pay out that cash in dividends and keep the company as it is.
Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
<< <i>PCGS is a takeover candidate. Too much cash on hand. Sorry, but that is the facts. Sears was taken over by lowly K-Mart (who had just come out of bankruptcy) only because Sears was sitting on some 10-15 billion in cash. Made it a ripe target. Now it's Sears Holdings and you can get Kenmore appliance at K-Mart.
Business is what it is.
bob
PS: just pay out that cash in dividends and keep the company as it is. >>
Or... pay for all members of the U.S. Coin Forum to attend the PCGS Coin Show in Vegas?
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor. Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous" grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
I didn't mention NGC. >>
That amounts to a "no", in answer to my question above. Therefore, as advertised, I ask, what was the relevance of your post? Is it your claim that you were just speaking in the abstract and weren't referring to NGC and Heritage?
<< <i>.......It is news to me ,.. and it doesn't sit very well with me . >>
Why not? >>
what Frank sez :
"There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor. Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous" grade. "
It looks like Kenneth Duncan made a nice profit on the 120,000+ shares he purchased in May '09 at around $4/share! Should be enough to buy another 1943/44 cent.
Looks like you're mistaking coin dealer Kenny Duncan of Houston for coin collector Bob Simpson of Ft Worth.
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>It looks like Kenneth Duncan made a nice profit on the 120,000+ shares he purchased in May '09 at around $4/share! Should be enough to buy another 1943/44 cent.
Looks like you're mistaking coin dealer Kenny Duncan of Houston for coin collector Bob Simpson of Ft Worth. >>
Nope... that be da owner.
DUNCAN RICHARD KENNETH SR Beneficial Owner (10% or more)
I can't say i understand Mr. Hall's motivation for posting this information but I'm glad he did. I can't say it bothers me at first blush but I reserve the right to think on it a bit.
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
<< <i>It looks like Kenneth Duncan made a nice profit on the 120,000+ shares he purchased in May '09 at around $4/share! Should be enough to buy another 1943/44 cent.
Looks like you're mistaking coin dealer Kenny Duncan of Houston for coin collector Bob Simpson of Ft Worth. >>
Nope... that be da owner.
DUNCAN RICHARD KENNETH SR Beneficial Owner (10% or more) >>
He meant that Bob Simpson was the owner of the 1943/44 cent. MJ
Walker Proof Digital Album Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
<< <i>It looks like Kenneth Duncan made a nice profit on the 120,000+ shares he purchased in May '09 at around $4/share! Should be enough to buy another 1943/44 cent.
Looks like you're mistaking coin dealer Kenny Duncan of Houston for coin collector Bob Simpson of Ft Worth. >>
Nope... that be da owner.
DUNCAN RICHARD KENNETH SR Beneficial Owner (10% or more) >>
He meant that Bob Simpson was the owner of the 1943/44 cent. MJ >>
<< <i>I can't say i understand Mr. Hall's motivation for posting this information but I'm glad he did. I can't say it bothers me at first blush but I reserve the right to think on it a bit. >>
I would think that posting vahraqb about your major competitor is a very understandable motivation.
I don't think it matters. If NGC was dishonest, it would show up in the slabbed coins, and those are bought and sold by collectors (in part) on the merits of the coins themselves, and not just the holder. NGC would get a bad reputation and go the way of some of the other grading services.
i know this is public information but to be posted by HRH in this way, makes it somewhat tacky (and if other motives are involved perhaps irresponsible as well)
"...owning a huge stake in NGC is not neccessarily good or bad..."
May I disagree? When a company who sells coins also has a stake in grading them, it opens the door of temptation. It's best not to be tempted in the first place. I would rather not see board members or any employee of a grading company also be involved with the selling of coins. I would feel more comfortable if there was a clear separation.
It's kind of like the referee being allowed to take the ball up the court. Do you think he's less likely to call traveling?
There is no "AT" or "NT". We only have "market acceptable" or "not market acceptable.
It's all about integrity... David Hall is President of CU (I assume he earns a good salary), owns $13.7M in CU stock, developed PCGS while a dealer, is currently a dealer and I assume he LOVES coins... do you think that David Hall isn't above reproach? If there was even a hint of foul play, do you think PCGS coins would enjoy a monetary bump when you sell your coins? PCGS doesn't pay the ANA or PNG to be their official TPG. It's all about integrity...
"do you think that David Hall isn't above reproach?"
True story (the best I know)... a number of years ago, DHRC/DH consigned a top silver Washington quarter set to a major auction and I bought quite a few coins from the set (a number of which upgraded). One coin cost me under $100 in the sale and it upgraded the first time through PCGS to a $12,000 coin! That told me loud and clear that there were no "games" being played when it came to DHRC coins and PCGS.
Years later, DH told the story to an audience (I believe at one of the registry lunches) of how he and his brother JR handled this particular set and would wrote back to me on the registry about how the owner was an 84 year old lady, etc. (when it was really them!) when I would congratulate this set owner with emails during the set building phase for this former top set. I still feel I got the last laugh though!
Sorry for the tangent ... now back to the discussion of whether DH is above reproach!!
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Years later, DH told the story to an audience (I believe at one of the registry lunches) of how he and his brother JR handled this particular set and would wrote back to me on the registry about how the owner was an 84 year old lady, etc. (when it was really them!) when I would congratulate this set owner with emails during the set building phase for this former top set. I still feel I got the last laugh though!
Sorry for the tangent ... now back to the discussion of whether DH is above reproach!!
Wondercoin >>
David Hall has a brother that deals/dealt in coins too? That's pretty cool...although I am a little surprised you don't hear anything about him anymore. Is he no longer involved with coins?
I don't know the motivation for starting this thread, but I have noticed a number of board members appear to be unaware that not only does NGC pay to be the official grading company of the PNG, but PCGS used to pay for that title, too! Here is the thread so folks can read about it and get the facts.
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor. Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous" grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
I didn't mention NGC. >>
That amounts to a "no", in answer to my question above. Therefore, as advertised, I ask, what was the relevance of your post? Is it your claim that you were just speaking in the abstract and weren't referring to NGC and Heritage? >>
Forgive me for butting in, but Just as HRH was presenting a situation almost as a mental exercise to stir speculation and get imaginations burning, so too is this fellow. He's presenting a hypothetical situation which, if it either were true developed later, would demonstrate a conflict of interest. As no one is charging NGC with grade inflation or anything else that would strike an average person as irregular, I see no material relevance per se, only how a conflict might manifest if it were real.
For my part, if such a conflict were to surface, resulting in an uneven playing field for the buyer, it might more likely be expressed in more subtle ways--favorable placements of NGC coins in the catalogues, more prime-time spots for NGC coins being sold at auctions, more lengthy and flowery descriptions of NGC pieces, mutual trade-outs for advertising, etc. HRH seems to be making a concerted effort to avoid making the conflict charges, which is smart. A great many companies run aspects of their business in a way that raises eyebrows.
Note, my post isn't particularly "relevant" either. It's merely pure speculation on how a conflict of interest might be apparent if an entity chose to exploit it's position.
The entire coin world is extremely small. You cannot swing a dead numismatic cat without hitting the same cast of characters again and again.
As for the 30% ownership, is NGC a public company (I should know this but the time that I spend keeping tabs on my beloved QDB does not leave me much time for inquiring about NGC .
Always took candy from strangers Didn't wanna get me no trade Never want to be like papa Working for the boss every night and day --"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>Or that David Hall also owns David Hall Rare Coins? >>
He's a marketing genius... how'd he come up with his company name? >>
And have you noticed that all of the coins for sale there on DHRC are PCGS certified... hmmm... maybe it has something to do with ownership >>
... or maybe it has to do with the fact that he's the president of CU? If the president of Coca-Cola owned a chain of hot dog stands, do you think you'd see him selling Pepsi products at his stands?
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor. Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous" grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
I didn't mention NGC. >>
That amounts to a "no", in answer to my question above. Therefore, as advertised, I ask, what was the relevance of your post? Is it your claim that you were just speaking in the abstract and weren't referring to NGC and Heritage? >>
Forgive me for butting in, but Just as HRH was presenting a situation almost as a mental exercise to stir speculation and get imaginations burning, so too is this fellow. He's presenting a hypothetical situation which, if it either were true developed later, would demonstrate a conflict of interest. As no one is charging NGC with grade inflation or anything else that would strike an average person as irregular, I see no material relevance per se, only how a conflict might manifest if it were real.
For my part, if such a conflict were to surface, resulting in an uneven playing field for the buyer, it might more likely be expressed in more subtle ways--favorable placements of NGC coins in the catalogues, more prime-time spots for NGC coins being sold at auctions, more lengthy and flowery descriptions of NGC pieces, mutual trade-outs for advertising, etc. HRH seems to be making a concerted effort to avoid making the conflict charges, which is smart. A great many companies run aspects of their business in a way that raises eyebrows.
Note, my post isn't particularly "relevant" either. It's merely pure speculation on how a conflict of interest might be apparent if an entity chose to exploit it's position. >>
David Hall didn't merely present a situation "almost as a mental exercise to stir speculation and get imaginations burning". But rather, he presented one that is factual/real life - I take him at his word on that. And based on Frank's post, it is my belief that he taking a shot at NGC and Heritage, but merely omitted their names. He made of David Hall's post, exactly what he wanted to.
<<David Hall has a brother that deals/dealt in coins too? That's pretty cool...although I am a little surprised you don't hear anything about him anymore. Is he no longer involved with coins?>>
Its a conflict of interest. Could they be lily white and absolutely have no funny business going on? Yes they could. Everyone can decide for themselves if they feel the grades are actually being influenced by this connection.
Also if they had anything to do with NGC new pronged holder then I think it is a good thing, I love NGC's new holder and think NGC while a clear 2nd does a good job of pushing PCGS to stay infont like the picture of every coin model and to be honest I think PCGS holder could use a refresh too as it is looking a little dated.
Comments
<< <i>And Red China owns 60% of America......Soooooooooo
What do White China and Blue China own?
<< <i>This is the block of stock that Roy Disney (nephew of Walt) owned though his investment fund, Shamrock Holdings. He wanted
CU broken up and sold off.
But on Dec 16, 2009, Disney died at Hoag Memorial Hospital in (coinidentally) Newport Beach, California. >>
Is it really a coincidence?
<< <i>
<< <i>This is the block of stock that Roy Disney (nephew of Walt) owned though his investment fund, Shamrock Holdings. He wanted
CU broken up and sold off.
But on Dec 16, 2009, Disney died at Hoag Memorial Hospital in (coinidentally) Newport Beach, California. >>
Is it really a coincidence?
Are you implying that CU somehow caused his gastric cancer?
I'll tell you what! That Heritage building LOOKS big enuf to hold NGC! Just saying.
and they're cold.
I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
Mary
Best Franklin Website
<< <i>
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
I didn't mention NGC.
<< <i>
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
This is probably the first time I've ever agreed with Frankcoins on anything, and probably the last. Lets just say that when there is a conflict between money and independence as an ideal, the money has a greater chance of prevailing. There should be a separation of powers between the grading services, the auction houses, and the dealers, just to prevent smoe nudging and winking from taking place.
This is probably the first time I've ever agreed with Frankcoins on anything, and probably the last. Lets just say that when there is a conflict between money and independence as an ideal, the money has a greater chance of prevailing. There should be a separation of powers between the grading services, the auction houses, and the dealers, just to prevent smoe nudging and winking from taking place. >>
Quick, check your tires. I agreed with Frank once and I got a flat tire about an hour later. For real..........Better safe then sorry. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
D&B shows NGC as a $25M revenue company with 120 employees as of 2009 (CU is a $40M+ revenue company with 190 employees)
Key Executives
Chief Executive Officer: Mr Steven Eichenbaum
President: Mr Richard Montgomery
Chief Operating Officer: Ms Lisa Criestoff
Chief Financial Officer: Ms Lisa Creisstoff
Chairman: Mr Mark Salzberg
Key Financials
News
Currency: USD
Sales: 25.00 m
Sales Growth: N/A
Sales Indicator: Actual
Employees: 120
Employees Growth (3 year): 50.00%
Employee Indicator: Actual
Fiscal Year-End Date: 2009
<< <i> >>
This is probably the first time I've ever agreed with Frankcoins on anything, and probably the last. Lets just say that when there is a conflict between money and independence as an ideal, the money has a greater chance of prevailing. There should be a separation of powers between the grading services, the auction houses, and the dealers, just to prevent smoe nudging and winking from taking place. >>
Quick, check your tires. I agreed with Frank once and I got a flat tire about an hour later. For real..........Better safe then sorry. MJ >>
Just what I need. I'll check them at 6:36 (Pacific Time).
The only way to get the grades you want is to own 51%
facts. Sears was taken over by lowly K-Mart (who had just come out of bankruptcy)
only because Sears was sitting on some 10-15 billion in cash. Made it a ripe target.
Now it's Sears Holdings and you can get Kenmore appliance at K-Mart.
Business is what it is.
bob
PS: just pay out that cash in dividends and keep the company as it is.
<< <i>PCGS is a takeover candidate. Too much cash on hand. Sorry, but that is the
facts. Sears was taken over by lowly K-Mart (who had just come out of bankruptcy)
only because Sears was sitting on some 10-15 billion in cash. Made it a ripe target.
Now it's Sears Holdings and you can get Kenmore appliance at K-Mart.
Business is what it is.
bob
PS: just pay out that cash in dividends and keep the company as it is. >>
Or... pay for all members of the U.S. Coin Forum to attend the PCGS Coin Show in Vegas?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
I didn't mention NGC. >>
That amounts to a "no", in answer to my question above. Therefore, as advertised, I ask, what was the relevance of your post? Is it your claim that you were just speaking in the abstract and weren't referring to NGC and Heritage?
<< <i>
<< <i>.......It is news to me ,.. and it doesn't sit very well with me . >>
Why not? >>
what Frank sez :
"There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. "
.thats even a worse conflict - not only does that not sit well with me ; that makes me unable to sit down ........
World Collection
British Collection
German States Collection
Looks like you're mistaking coin dealer Kenny Duncan of Houston for coin collector Bob Simpson of Ft Worth.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
<< <i>It looks like Kenneth Duncan made a nice profit on the 120,000+ shares he purchased in May '09 at around $4/share! Should be enough to buy another 1943/44 cent.
Looks like you're mistaking coin dealer Kenny Duncan of Houston for coin collector Bob Simpson of Ft Worth. >>
Nope... that be da owner.
DUNCAN RICHARD KENNETH SR
Beneficial Owner (10% or more)
"Look up, old boy, and see what you get." -William Bonney.
He knew all this info would come out ,
something huge is in store
<< <i>
<< <i>It looks like Kenneth Duncan made a nice profit on the 120,000+ shares he purchased in May '09 at around $4/share! Should be enough to buy another 1943/44 cent.
Looks like you're mistaking coin dealer Kenny Duncan of Houston for coin collector Bob Simpson of Ft Worth. >>
Nope... that be da owner.
DUNCAN RICHARD KENNETH SR
Beneficial Owner (10% or more) >>
He meant that Bob Simpson was the owner of the 1943/44 cent. MJ
Fellas, leave the tight pants to the ladies. If I can count the coins in your pockets you better use them to call a tailor. Stay thirsty my friends......
Seems fairly comparable...
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>It looks like Kenneth Duncan made a nice profit on the 120,000+ shares he purchased in May '09 at around $4/share! Should be enough to buy another 1943/44 cent.
Looks like you're mistaking coin dealer Kenny Duncan of Houston for coin collector Bob Simpson of Ft Worth. >>
Nope... that be da owner.
DUNCAN RICHARD KENNETH SR
Beneficial Owner (10% or more) >>
He meant that Bob Simpson was the owner of the 1943/44 cent. MJ >>
Oooooooooohhhhhhhhhh!
<< <i>Or that David Hall also owns David Hall Rare Coins? >>
He's a marketing genius... how'd he come up with his company name?
<< <i>I can't say i understand Mr. Hall's motivation for posting this information but I'm glad he did. I can't say it bothers me at first blush but I reserve the right to think on it a bit. >>
I would think that posting vahraqb about your major competitor is a very understandable motivation.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>
<< <i>Or that David Hallalso owns David Hall Rare Coins? >>
He's a marketing genius... how'd he come up with his company name? >>
....your kidding right ? all this time I thought it was brilliant the way D. Hall kept it an industry secret that he really owned DHRC's -
now we find out some feller named D. Hallalso really owns it !? Holy Crap
<< <i>What if graders at a third party grading company are all dealers?
.thats even a worse conflict - not only does that not sit well with me ; that makes me unable to sit down ........ >>
arent pcgs graders also coin dealers?
How are we doing so far?
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
www.brunkauctions.com
May I disagree? When a company who sells coins also has a stake in grading them, it opens the door of temptation. It's best not to be tempted in the first place. I would rather not see board members or any employee of a grading company also be involved with the selling of coins. I would feel more comfortable if there was a clear separation.
It's kind of like the referee being allowed to take the ball up the court. Do you think he's less likely to call traveling?
I used to be a gemologist and jewelry appraiser.
When I sold a piece of jewelry, I ALWAYS gave my client an independent appraisal.
I never thought it was ethical to give the customer my own appraisal.
"“Those who sacrifice liberty for security/safety deserve neither.“(Benjamin Franklin)
"I only golf on days that end in 'Y'" (DE59)
True story (the best I know)... a number of years ago, DHRC/DH consigned a top silver Washington quarter set to a major auction and I bought quite a few coins from the set (a number of which upgraded). One coin cost me under $100 in the sale and it upgraded the first time through PCGS to a $12,000 coin! That told me loud and clear that there were no "games" being played when it came to DHRC coins and PCGS.
Years later, DH told the story to an audience (I believe at one of the registry lunches) of how he and his brother JR handled this particular set and would wrote back to me on the registry about how the owner was an 84 year old lady, etc. (when it was really them!) when I would congratulate this set owner with emails during the set building phase for this former top set. I still feel I got the last laugh though!
Sorry for the tangent ... now back to the discussion of whether DH is above reproach!!
Wondercoin
<< <i>
Years later, DH told the story to an audience (I believe at one of the registry lunches) of how he and his brother JR handled this particular set and would wrote back to me on the registry about how the owner was an 84 year old lady, etc. (when it was really them!) when I would congratulate this set owner with emails during the set building phase for this former top set. I still feel I got the last laugh though!
Sorry for the tangent ... now back to the discussion of whether DH is above reproach!!
Wondercoin >>
David Hall has a brother that deals/dealt in coins too? That's pretty cool...although I am a little surprised you don't hear anything about him anymore. Is he no longer involved with coins?
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
I didn't mention NGC. >>
That amounts to a "no", in answer to my question above. Therefore, as advertised, I ask, what was the relevance of your post? Is it your claim that you were just speaking in the abstract and weren't referring to NGC and Heritage? >>
Forgive me for butting in, but Just as HRH was presenting a situation almost as a mental exercise to stir speculation and get imaginations burning, so too is this fellow. He's presenting a hypothetical situation which, if it either were true developed later, would demonstrate a conflict of interest. As no one is charging NGC with grade inflation or anything else that would strike an average person as irregular, I see no material relevance per se, only how a conflict might manifest if it were real.
For my part, if such a conflict were to surface, resulting in an uneven playing field for the buyer, it might more likely be expressed in more subtle ways--favorable placements of NGC coins in the catalogues, more prime-time spots for NGC coins being sold at auctions, more lengthy and flowery descriptions of NGC pieces, mutual trade-outs for advertising, etc. HRH seems to be making a concerted effort to avoid making the conflict charges, which is smart. A great many companies run aspects of their business in a way that raises eyebrows.
Note, my post isn't particularly "relevant" either. It's merely pure speculation on how a conflict of interest might be apparent if an entity chose to exploit it's position.
<< <i>
<< <i>Or that David Hall also owns David Hall Rare Coins? >>
He's a marketing genius... how'd he come up with his company name? >>
And have you noticed that all of the coins for sale there on DHRC are PCGS certified... hmmm... maybe it has something to do with ownership
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
As for the 30% ownership, is NGC a public company (I should know this but the time that I spend keeping tabs on my beloved QDB does not leave me much time for inquiring about NGC
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Or that David Hall also owns David Hall Rare Coins? >>
He's a marketing genius... how'd he come up with his company name? >>
And have you noticed that all of the coins for sale there on DHRC are PCGS certified... hmmm... maybe it has something to do with ownership
... or maybe it has to do with the fact that he's the president of CU? If the president of Coca-Cola owned a chain of hot dog stands, do you think you'd see him selling Pepsi products at his stands?
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>There is a conflict of interest when an auctioneer of a brand of slabbed coins is also a major owner of that same
slabbing company. A favorable grade by a slabbing company increases the selling price and thus the commissions
that the auctioneer earns. This is all good for the slabbing company, the auction company, and the consignor.
Not so good for the buyer of a coin where ALL OTHER PARTIES EXCEPT HIM profit if a coin is given a "generous"
grade. >>
And you saying that NGC knows at the time they grade coins that they will be consigned to a Heritage auction, so they grade them higher than they otherwise would have? Please answer yes or no, and if your answer is no, what is the relevance of what you posted above? >>
I didn't mention NGC. >>
That amounts to a "no", in answer to my question above. Therefore, as advertised, I ask, what was the relevance of your post? Is it your claim that you were just speaking in the abstract and weren't referring to NGC and Heritage? >>
Forgive me for butting in, but Just as HRH was presenting a situation almost as a mental exercise to stir speculation and get imaginations burning, so too is this fellow. He's presenting a hypothetical situation which, if it either were true developed later, would demonstrate a conflict of interest. As no one is charging NGC with grade inflation or anything else that would strike an average person as irregular, I see no material relevance per se, only how a conflict might manifest if it were real.
For my part, if such a conflict were to surface, resulting in an uneven playing field for the buyer, it might more likely be expressed in more subtle ways--favorable placements of NGC coins in the catalogues, more prime-time spots for NGC coins being sold at auctions, more lengthy and flowery descriptions of NGC pieces, mutual trade-outs for advertising, etc. HRH seems to be making a concerted effort to avoid making the conflict charges, which is smart. A great many companies run aspects of their business in a way that raises eyebrows.
Note, my post isn't particularly "relevant" either. It's merely pure speculation on how a conflict of interest might be apparent if an entity chose to exploit it's position. >>
David Hall didn't merely present a situation "almost as a mental exercise to stir speculation and get imaginations burning". But rather, he presented one that is factual/real life - I take him at his word on that. And based on Frank's post, it is my belief that he taking a shot at NGC and Heritage, but merely omitted their names. He made of David Hall's post, exactly what he wanted to.
<<David Hall has a brother that deals/dealt in coins too? That's pretty cool...although I am a little surprised you don't hear anything about him anymore. Is he no longer involved with coins?>>
I believe David and John are half brothers.
Also if they had anything to do with NGC new pronged holder then I think it is a good thing, I love NGC's new holder and think NGC while a clear 2nd does a good job of pushing PCGS to stay infont like the picture of every coin model and to be honest I think PCGS holder could use a refresh too as it is looking a little dated.