<< <i>The spouses are locked down for at least the next two years with largely irrelevant historical subjects. Very much depends on the gold price. High gold coupled with homely ladies equals a threat to the Tylers, IMO. $1650 gold puts unc spouses right at $1000 ea. >>
I agree. I think the uncs are going to run along at around 3,000 for a while. >>
Those who've paid over $4K for a Julia MS70FS are taking a big risk IMHO. >>
That is the risk of buying standing keys in a continuing series. This series is especially risky because the difference between the mintages is very small. Now if we can get the economy going again and if gold stabilizes or drops somewhat then we could see the current keys stand.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>If this coin does not pan out (and it may not) then I dont see any good opportunities for years. >>
In all seriousness, and I'm sure we'll here the jokes, but joking aside
how do you think Eleanor Roosevelt will do in a relative fashion?
supplementary question: what about loss of First Spouse collector base? do you think we'll see lower lows in a couple of years due to collector base loss? >>
I think that Lincoln will be a good indicator for the Roosevelt sales. Not because they were similar people, but because I think their popularity (for different reasons) is a good match. If I were to buy any spouse coins strictly for their subject matter, it would be these two, and maybe Jackie and Betty, too. No question in my mind, however, that Roosevelt is the most historically significant figure of the entire series.
For those holding out for the Jackie I am going to make a big 7/8, stick-a-fork-in-it, prediction that that coin will be a DUD. Now if you want it 'cause you like Jackie that is one thing but if you think it will be a flippers dream I think you will be disappointed.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>For those holding out for the Jackie I am going to make a big 7/8, stick-a-fork-in-it, prediction that that coin will be a DUD. Now if you want it 'cause you like Jackie that is one thing but if you think it will be a flippers dream I think you will be disappointed. >>
I think it will be a crowded flip like the buch's were a crowded flip.
<< <i>If this coin does not pan out (and it may not) then I dont see any good opportunities for years. >>
In all seriousness, and I'm sure we'll here the jokes, but joking aside
how do you think Eleanor Roosevelt will do in a relative fashion?
supplementary question: what about loss of First Spouse collector base? do you think we'll see lower lows in a couple of years due to collector base loss? >>
I think that Lincoln will be a good indicator for the Roosevelt sales. Not because they were similar people, but because I think their popularity (for different reasons) is a good match. If I were to buy any spouse coins strictly for their subject matter, it would be these two, and maybe Jackie and Betty, too. No question in my mind, however, that Roosevelt is the most historically significant figure of the entire series. >>
I don't know about the series, but certainly Lincoln for the 1800s and Roosevelt/Kennedy for the 1900s. Jackie will be popular, but I wonder if Eleanor would be as popular as Mary Todd Lincoln on a relative scale.
<< <i>the series, in general, is not very popular.
that is why you will see promotions soon for the Liberty subset. That is the most interesting part of the series. >>
As in a lot of things there may be a popularity inversion on these later on when the series is finished. What is disliked today may very well be the cat's meow later. They are unpopular today because of designs but later the low mintages will kick in. I don't think people pay top dollar for Jackie Robinson because they love the design or even the historical significance. That is why I like these for a long term hold.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable.
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
They probably would have had more sucess with silver instead of gold but I guess they thought the bronze medals would serve that purpose.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
They probably would have had more sucess with silver instead of gold but I guess they thought the bronze medals would serve that purpose. >>
I thought about silver instead of medals, but I wondered if they would have taken the collector base from the gold.
Although a nice sized silver coin would have been nice, but then they would have been bigger than the presidential dollars.
the gold coins are the same diameter as the presidential dollars.
<< <i>Jackie's low mintage helps, but also the cross popularity between coins and baseball >>
Yes, but where were these forces when the coin was originally on sale? Don't say they were busy watching a game. >>
If I recall correctly, the US Mint did not allow web-based sales to the general public when the Jackie Robinson commems were issued and the only way you could obtain these commems was to be on the US Mint mailing list and fill out the postcard that came with the list and then mail it in with a check. That little bit of effort reduced sales quite a bit, in my opinion, and in combination with the lack of relatively real-time sales data as now given by Numismatic News allowed the coin to have low sales numbers without any real boost in sales near the end of the sales period.
Although a nice sized silver coin would have been nice, but then they would have been bigger than the presidential dollars. the gold coins are the same diameter as the presidential dollars.[/q
That may have gotten some feminists interested.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses.
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses. >>
Given enough time I think they will probably do that. Given the "balkanization" of racial groups we have seen lately I prefer the E Pluribus Unum theme more.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>Jackie's low mintage helps, but also the cross popularity between coins and baseball.
Yes, but where were these forces when the coin was originally on sale? Don't say they were busy watching a game. >>
The Jackie Robinson proof is not that scarce, nearly 5 times the mintage of the uncirculated. Baseball fans probably gravitated to the premium set in a polished wood box that contained a proof JR gold coin, a special pin and a limited edition baseball card. Thousands of these premium boxed sets were sold.
Adding to the difference: The proof was available in this boxed set, as a single coin, in a two-coin proof set (gold $5 and silver $1), and in a 4-coin proof and uncirculated set. The uncirculated coin was available only as a single coin and as part of the 4-coin set. The uncirculated gold coin was somewhat of an "orphan" in this regard - it was not promoted as a separate coin, and probably only hard-core collectors were interested. Around 3,000 uncirculateds were bought as part of the 4-coin sets, and only around 2,000 were bought as individual coins.
<< If I recall correctly, the US Mint did not allow web-based sales to the general public when the Jackie Robinson commems were issued and the only way you could obtain these commems was to be on the US Mint mailing list and fill out the postcard that came with the list and then mail it in with a check. >>
The Mint was also accepting telephone orders at the time, but not internet orders.
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses. >>
Agreed; Use Native American input and /or designers. Interpretation is important.
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses. >>
Agreed; Use Native American input and /or designers. Interpretation is important. >>
Really, wouldn't you think that was overkill with the current Native American Dollar series? I think people are going to get tired of buffalos, teepees, peace pipes and feather fashions on their coins.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses. >>
There were supposed to have been over 500 Indian Nations within the US before most of them were exterminated.
Of course you could limit the coins to just those tribes that now own casinos, and the coins could then even be made available for sale over the counter inside the casinos, and there they could be accepted as high-value chips at the roulette and craps tables, with redemption available at the cashier's windows at full melt value plus a posted premium, fluctuating daily when the London PM fix is posted.
Half - It doesnt take much of a prediction to advise to buy 5oz pucks for 930.
Right and you passed at the initial APMEX pricing of $1400 while I didn't, I bought from APMEX or have you already forgotten? I was buying early to cost average into these coins, unlike you.
That is a common problem for those who haven't been in this game very long. There are only a few coins in the 08-w Buffalo stable that warrant holding for long term. Do you know which one's they are???
So why did you say to sell all of them three weeks after the issue went dark from the mint way back before prices even warmed up, or have you forgotten that too? Prices had barely climbed 30% over issue and you were telling us to dump them, the top is here [boy how wrong was that]. You said the same for the plat proofs [wrong again].
later you said gold buffalo prices couldn't hold over $1k[wrong again]. Anyone taking your advice lost probably 200% to 400% or more by bailing early even before the real party started. But let's not remember than either.
I will say one thing that I think is a bad comparison. Those who compare these pucks to the demand and performance of the 95-W ASE Proof are totally off base
We actually agree on something but I think for different reasons. The 95-W is a proof coin and these ATB are sold via the bullion network, a big difference. The mint never would have released only 33,000 proof silver eagles through the dealer network but they did that with these 5 ounce coins. The big question is will they release more or less than 33,000 of these ATB in the future years through the dealers? If it is more then these will be the key coins, if they don't then they obviously won't. I think they will be able to do all they can mint so these will be the keys and am buying accordingly.
Also the idea that people have to collect all of the coins from all of the years for these to appreciate in not accurate. They only have to want these coin in more numbers than were produced for these to appreciate. I expect the later years to sell for close to bullion levels for ungraded coins and the 2010 to be the bottom keys. For the collector version if silver prices rise maybe the 2010 won't be the bottom.
Anyway I am buying what I believe, that is what matters to me. You were skipping the 5 oz bullion, I was buying. People can decide that one for themselves.
Why dont you put your effort into decifering where some of these issues will go in the next 60 days, 6 months, 1 year? Develop the statistical model. Form your opinion based on prior experiences, the typical USM planning that goes into these issues, etc.
I have an entire file of all the mint stats going back years. Do you think I have that just for kicks. I came up with my own ideas and that is why I picked what I did on these coins. You didn't but that's OK. At least we had fun discussing them, and I have the coins, boxes of them graded to prove what I did. Someday you can pull out a couple 2008 w plat unc coin and tell everyone you were right about everything. It won't matter, LOl.
What matters is what we own or have sold and bought back. Someday these coins will be considered classic coins, it may take 50 to 100 years but even the spouse coin low mintages will be marveled at. The VB unc should be the Liberty king despite all the crying over the proof, the Julia Tyler could be the unc king of them all, and many of those under 4000 should do well to. Yes even the 2008 w unc plats should be amazing as will the gold buffalo fractionals you didn't like. And all the discussion here will be long gone and forgotten. So in a way you are just ahead of the game, I will give you credit for that.
I think doing coins on Indian tribes is a good idea in theory but would prove too complicated and controversial in practice. Too many questions involving the legitimacy of tribes, etc. Coinage celebrating Indian culture in general without too many specifics toward exact tribes is a better idea.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
This discussion reminds me of so many of those radio and tv stock analyists who are always telling us (bragging about) how they warned us to sell or buy this or that and how they were so correct. However, they seem to have great amnesia when it comes to their bad calls. It is like they never said it at all.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>I think doing coins on Indian tribes is a good idea in theory but would prove too complicated and controversial in practice. Too many questions involving the legitimacy of tribes, etc. Coinage celebrating Indian culture in general without too many specifics toward exact tribes is a better idea. >>
I would have never guessed that good ole Swingline Milton was so wise.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
<< <i>I think doing coins on Indian tribes is a good idea in theory but would prove too complicated and controversial in practice. Too many questions involving the legitimacy of tribes, etc. Coinage celebrating Indian culture in general without too many specifics toward exact tribes is a better idea. >>
I would have never guessed that good ole Swingline Milton was so wise. >>
I've learned a few things while being stuck in this basement cubicle, making nothing.
Successful transactions with keepdachange, tizofthe, adriana, wondercoin
<< <i>Right and you passed at the initial APMEX pricing of $1400 while I didn't, I bought from APMEX or have you already forgotten? I was buying early to cost average into these coins, unlike you. >>
????, still dont understand your point, I purchased the ATB sets too. Not an outstanding call. Anyone could have predicted this one.
<< <i>So why did you say to sell all of them three weeks after the issue went dark from the mint way back before prices even warmed up, or have you forgotten that too? Prices had barely climbed 30% over issue and you were telling us to dump them, the top is here [boy how wrong was that]. You said the same for the plat proofs [wrong again]. >>
I warned of super high prices in many of the coins in that grouping, some on their way to the top. They were not rare and still aren't. They were abundant. They were being traded at coin shows wholesale at much lower prices than ebay, and no one - including yourself, saw the signs......instead you would rather hold and ride the landslide back down. The object is to get out on the uptick, not the downside. Will you still profit over issue price, sure. How about selling your theory on the Buffalo's to those who bought full PR70 DCAM FS sets in the 16k-18k range? How are they doing right about now?
<< <i>Anyway I am buying what I believe, that is what matters to me. You were skipping the 5 oz bullion, I was buying. People can decide that one for themselves. >>
Didnt skip the 5oz bullion at all, another post took out of context. The point was, if you cant acquire these, dont purchase them to the upside (secondary), it is a flippers game-you will get burned. Buy the numismatic version. It will be a level playing field.
<< <i>I have an entire file of all the mint stats going back years. Do you think I have that just for kicks. I came up with my own ideas and that is why I picked what I did on these coins. You didn't but that's OK. At least we had fun discussing them, and I have the coins, boxes of them graded to prove what I did. Someday you can pull out a couple 2008 w plat unc coin and tell everyone you were right about everything. It won't matter, LOl >>
Have the same mint stats, been active on the mint mailing list and all issues since the mid/late 1970's. With all those stats Half, you still cant spot a short struck coin? You certainly couldnt figure out the 08w plat unc 4 coin sets and 1/4's. You also had a very hard time believing the 08w Buffalo Proof final numbers. Generally, I find that those who talk about boxes, usually have a few pieces. It really doesnt matter, other than your total return on those common fractional Buffalo's continue to suffer, month by month, year by year. It's called lost opportunity cost.
I also wouldnt be so sure the fractional Buffalo's dont return. There is a 100 year anniversary coming up.
All that said, and it was a mouthful, I continue to expect Halfstrike to take my posts out of context - and continue to expect him to be the Monday morning quarterback. But it makes for a fun experience around here, otherwise it wouldnt be so lively.
<< <i>I think doing coins on Indian tribes is a good idea in theory but would prove too complicated and controversial in practice. Too many questions involving the legitimacy of tribes, etc. Coinage celebrating Indian culture in general without too many specifics toward exact tribes is a better idea. >>
I would have never guessed that good ole Swingline Milton was so wise. >>
I've learned a few things while being stuck in this basement cubicle, making nothing. >>
Yeaaaaaaaahhhh. And helping with the TPS report no doubt.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I have done quite well thanks to you and Eric, all I can say is that if Buchanan pans out; I will send you both a case of Wine!!!! >>
That is very nice but I need to know one thing. 7/8, did you recommend selling the 2008 W Buffalo gold set in 2008? Not trying to put words in your mouth-just curious.
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
In 2009, once the 2008w Buffalo Gold set had hit 2.5-4.5x issue price levels (less of a multiple for the big coins, more for the smaller denoms) in raw format, my opinion was that these coins had plateau'd for now and you should keep what you want for your collection, sell others and move on.
My opinion was also to sell any FS coins where the multiple was rediculous, especially the FS PR70 Proof 1 ounce, 1/2 ounce, 1/10 ounce and any FS MS70 1/2 and 1/10 oz coins. IMO, the only coins worth keeping were the ultra rare 1 oz unc and the 1/4 oz pieces in both proof and unc, for their mintages and the 1/4's allure to buffalo nickel collectors, being the closest in size to the buffalo nickel.
Did they rise somewhat more during the time I formed my opinion - sure, but you didnt want to be there once they slid back. It was a frenzy, not normal short term price levels expected from those coins. Well above what is normally expected. Kind of like 2006 for housing.
<< <i>In 2009, once the 2008w Buffalo Gold set had hit 2.5-4.5x issue price levels (less of a multiple for the big coins, more for the smaller denoms) in raw format, my opinion was that these coins had plateau'd for now and you should keep what you want for your collection, sell others and move on.
My opinion was also to sell any FS coins where the multiple was rediculous, especially the FS PR70 Proof 1 ounce, 1/2 ounce, 1/10 ounce and any FS MS70 1/2 and 1/10 oz coins. IMO, the only coins worth keeping were the ultra rare 1 oz unc and the 1/4 oz pieces in both proof and unc, for their mintages and the 1/4's allure to buffalo nickel collectors, being the closest in size to the buffalo nickel.
Did they rise somewhat more during the time I formed my opinion - sure, but you didnt want to be there once they slid back. It was a frenzy, not normal short term price levels expected from those coins. Well above what is normally expected. Kind of like 2006 for housing. >>
I did thin out my graded Buffs and kept some raw quarters cause I like size. The sets have held up pretty well though. I looked on ebay and they were about $6000 raw and $9400 in PCGS 70. Looking at the 2008 W Burnished Plat set I saw an NGC 70 at about 5600 and a raw set that did not sell a $5700 or even get a first bid at $5100 (i think). Now looking at a percent gain in value over issue it looks like the Buffs are doing better. Did you ever recommend a sell of the Plats?
Gold and silver are valuable but wisdom is priceless.
I did thin out my graded Buffs and kept some raw quarters cause I like size. The sets have held up pretty well though. I looked on ebay and they were about $6000 raw and $9400 in PCGS 70. Looking at the 2008 W Burnished Plat set I saw an NGC 70 at about 5600 and a raw set that did not sell a $5700 or even get a first bid at $5100 (i think). Now looking at a percent gain in value over issue it looks like the Buffs are doing better. Did you ever recommend a sell of the Plats? >>
Clearly you know that this is not a perfect science and I imagine you are grilling 7over8 for fun, at the end of the day we all live with the decisions we make. I for one am glad that 7over8 and others provide as much information as they do for free. You can either ignore their advise or take it, it is up to you! I do not believe anyone is making you buy any Buchanan's or anything else for that matter. But I will tell you what, I have yet to loose a penny based on his advice, I still got plenty un-circulated Platinum Eagle sets and the fact that I bought them for a little over 2k and can now sell them at over twice of what I paid for them, tickles me pink. Heck if I had my money in bonds I would have to wait 8 years to get the same return, I still have some buffalo sets also to include some nice PR70 first strikes and if it was not for this board and the advice from 70ver8 and others "halfstrike included" I would not have what I have now. My pride and joy is a 2008 First strike one ounce, I picked it up on ebay for $1400, what a beautiful coin. It is rare to enter a hobby and find people willing and able to help the new generation and for that I thank all contributors.
Coin collecting is like playing the stock market, some people try to time it and loose everything, others just buy the stocks and let it ride. The only time I sell any of my coins is when I want to buy something else, so I take some profit off the table and buy the next investment with it. I have been blessed and fortunate enough to be able to buy coins all year that way!!!
<< <i>Now looking at a percent gain in value over issue it looks like the Buffs are doing better. Did you ever recommend a sell of the Plats? >>
The Buff's are doing better - for now. They enjoyed a healthy leap in value, trading currently is thin. IMO, I would only hold the rare one's - the 2-3 coins i mentioned, or sets for your collection.
As for the PLATS, 3 of 4 2008-W are the KEYS of the three year set. IMO, They are a strong hold fo the future. If you need money, you'll be able to take a healthy profit. Routinely, the originally priced $320 1/4 plat unc sells in the $950 range in NGC70.
<< As for the PLATS, 3 of 4 2008-W are the KEYS of the three year set. IMO, They are a strong hold fo the future. If you need money, you'll be able to take a healthy profit. Routinely, the originally priced $320 1/4 plat unc sells in the $950 range in NGC70. >>
And even the non-key 1/10 ounce sold recently for $372 raw in OGP.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>The spouses are locked down for at least the next two years with largely irrelevant historical subjects. Very much depends on the gold price. High gold coupled with homely ladies equals a threat to the Tylers, IMO. $1650 gold puts unc spouses right at $1000 ea. >>
I agree. I think the uncs are going to run along at around 3,000 for a while. >>
Those who've paid over $4K for a Julia MS70FS are taking a big risk IMHO. >>
That is the risk of buying standing keys in a continuing series. This series is especially risky because the difference between the mintages is very small. Now if we can get the economy going again and if gold stabilizes or drops somewhat then we could see the current keys stand.
<< <i>
<< <i>If this coin does not pan out (and it may not) then I dont see any good opportunities for years. >>
In all seriousness, and
I'm sure we'll here the jokes, but
joking aside
how do you think Eleanor Roosevelt will do in a relative fashion?
supplementary question: what about loss of First Spouse collector base? do you think we'll see lower lows in a couple of years due to collector base loss? >>
I think that Lincoln will be a good indicator for the Roosevelt sales. Not because they were similar people, but because I think their popularity (for different reasons) is a good match. If I were to buy any spouse coins strictly for their subject matter, it would be these two, and maybe Jackie and Betty, too. No question in my mind, however, that Roosevelt is the most historically significant figure of the entire series.
<< <i>For those holding out for the Jackie I am going to make a big 7/8, stick-a-fork-in-it, prediction that that coin will be a DUD. Now if you want it 'cause you like Jackie that is one thing but if you think it will be a flippers dream I think you will be disappointed. >>
I think it will be a crowded flip like the buch's were a crowded flip.
I'm going to stay away from that flip.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>If this coin does not pan out (and it may not) then I dont see any good opportunities for years. >>
In all seriousness, and
I'm sure we'll here the jokes, but
joking aside
how do you think Eleanor Roosevelt will do in a relative fashion?
supplementary question: what about loss of First Spouse collector base? do you think we'll see lower lows in a couple of years due to collector base loss? >>
I think that Lincoln will be a good indicator for the Roosevelt sales. Not because they were similar people, but because I think their popularity (for different reasons) is a good match. If I were to buy any spouse coins strictly for their subject matter, it would be these two, and maybe Jackie and Betty, too. No question in my mind, however, that Roosevelt is the most historically significant figure of the entire series. >>
I don't know about the series, but certainly Lincoln for the 1800s and Roosevelt/Kennedy for the 1900s. Jackie will be popular, but I wonder if Eleanor would be as popular as Mary Todd Lincoln on a relative scale.
that is why you will see promotions soon for the Liberty subset. That is the most interesting part of the series.
<< <i>the series, in general, is not very popular.
that is why you will see promotions soon for the Liberty subset. That is the most interesting part of the series. >>
As in a lot of things there may be a popularity inversion on these later on when the series is finished. What is disliked today may very well be the cat's meow later. They are unpopular today because of designs but later the low mintages will kick in. I don't think people pay top dollar for Jackie Robinson because they love the design or even the historical significance. That is why I like these for a long term hold.
<< <i>Jackie's low mintage helps, but also the cross popularity between coins and baseball >>
Yes, but where were these forces when the coin was originally on sale? Don't say they were busy watching a game.
the USM mailing list dwindled. I think they said it went down under 100,000. Now it is several million (after the state quarters kicked in).
the state quarter program really saved the hobby. it brought so many more collectors in, especially with moderns.
based on shows I attend, probably less than 5%
there aint much hope
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
They probably would have had more sucess with silver instead of gold but I guess they thought the bronze medals would serve that purpose.
<< <i>
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
They probably would have had more sucess with silver instead of gold but I guess they thought the bronze medals would serve that purpose. >>
I thought about silver instead of medals, but I wondered if they would have taken the collector base from the gold.
Although a nice sized silver coin would have been nice, but then they would have been bigger than the presidential dollars.
the gold coins are the same diameter as the presidential dollars.
<< <i>
<< <i>Jackie's low mintage helps, but also the cross popularity between coins and baseball >>
Yes, but where were these forces when the coin was originally on sale? Don't say they were busy watching a game.
If I recall correctly, the US Mint did not allow web-based sales to the general public when the Jackie Robinson commems were issued and the only way you could obtain these commems was to be on the US Mint mailing list and fill out the postcard that came with the list and then mail it in with a check. That little bit of effort reduced sales quite a bit, in my opinion, and in combination with the lack of relatively real-time sales data as now given by Numismatic News allowed the coin to have low sales numbers without any real boost in sales near the end of the sales period.
In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson
the gold coins are the same diameter as the presidential dollars.[/q
That may have gotten some feminists interested.
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses.
<< <i>
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses. >>
Given enough time I think they will probably do that. Given the "balkanization" of racial groups we have seen lately I prefer the E Pluribus Unum theme more.
<< <i>Jackie's low mintage helps, but also the cross popularity between coins and baseball.
Yes, but where were these forces when the coin was originally on sale? Don't say they were busy watching a game.
The Jackie Robinson proof is not that scarce, nearly 5 times the mintage of the uncirculated. Baseball fans probably gravitated to the premium set in a polished wood box that contained a proof JR gold coin, a special pin and a limited edition baseball card. Thousands of these premium boxed sets were sold.
Adding to the difference: The proof was available in this boxed set, as a single coin, in a two-coin proof set (gold $5 and silver $1), and in a 4-coin proof and uncirculated set. The uncirculated coin was available only as a single coin and as part of the 4-coin set. The uncirculated gold coin was somewhat of an "orphan" in this regard - it was not promoted as a separate coin, and probably only hard-core collectors were interested. Around 3,000 uncirculateds were bought as part of the 4-coin sets, and only around 2,000 were bought as individual coins.
<< If I recall correctly, the US Mint did not allow web-based sales to the general public when the Jackie Robinson commems were issued and the only way you could obtain these commems was to be on the US Mint mailing list and fill out the postcard that came with the list and then mail it in with a check. >>
The Mint was also accepting telephone orders at the time, but not internet orders.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
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<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses. >>
Agreed; Use Native American input and /or designers. Interpretation is important.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses. >>
Agreed; Use Native American input and /or designers. Interpretation is important. >>
Really, wouldn't you think that was overkill with the current Native American Dollar series? I think people are going to get tired of buffalos, teepees, peace pipes and feather fashions on their coins.
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<< <i>the problem with the spouse series is also the length of time (8-10 years?) it will span to be complete, the high bullion content (if prices continue to move up, some ppl just drop out), and the designs are not the greatest and/or memorable. >>
Someone on another coin message forum suggested that the Mint should do a series based on American Indian tribes. I think that would have given us much more interesting designs than the First Spouses. >>
There were supposed to have been over 500 Indian Nations within the US before most of them were exterminated.
Of course you could limit the coins to just those tribes that now own casinos, and the coins could then even be made available for sale over the counter inside the casinos, and there they could be accepted as high-value chips at the roulette and craps tables, with redemption available at the cashier's windows at full melt value plus a posted premium, fluctuating daily when the London PM fix is posted.
Right and you passed at the initial APMEX pricing of $1400 while I didn't, I bought from APMEX or have you already forgotten? I was buying early to cost average into these coins, unlike you.
That is a common problem for those who haven't been in this game very long. There are only a few coins in the 08-w Buffalo stable that warrant holding for long term. Do you know which one's they are???
So why did you say to sell all of them three weeks after the issue went dark from the mint way back before prices even warmed up, or have you forgotten that too? Prices had barely climbed 30% over issue and you were telling us to dump them, the top is here [boy how wrong was that]. You said the same for the plat proofs [wrong again].
later you said gold buffalo prices couldn't hold over $1k[wrong again]. Anyone taking your advice lost probably 200% to 400% or more by bailing early even before the real party started. But let's not remember than either.
I will say one thing that I think is a bad comparison. Those who compare these pucks to the demand and performance of the 95-W ASE Proof are totally off base
We actually agree on something but I think for different reasons. The 95-W is a proof coin and these ATB are sold via the bullion network, a big difference. The mint never would have released only 33,000 proof silver eagles through the dealer network but they did that with these 5 ounce coins. The big question is will they release more or less than 33,000 of these ATB in the future years through the dealers? If it is more then these will be the key coins, if they don't then they obviously won't. I think they will be able to do all they can mint so these will be the keys and am buying accordingly.
Also the idea that people have to collect all of the coins from all of the years for these to appreciate in not accurate. They only have to want these coin in more numbers than were produced for these to appreciate. I expect the later years to sell for close to bullion levels for ungraded coins and the 2010 to be the bottom keys. For the collector version if silver prices rise maybe the 2010 won't be the bottom.
Anyway I am buying what I believe, that is what matters to me. You were skipping the 5 oz bullion, I was buying. People can decide that one for themselves.
Why dont you put your effort into decifering where some of these issues will go in the next 60 days, 6 months, 1 year? Develop the statistical model. Form your opinion based on prior experiences, the typical USM planning that goes into these issues, etc.
I have an entire file of all the mint stats going back years. Do you think I have that just for kicks. I came up with my own ideas and that is why I picked what I did on these coins. You didn't but that's OK. At least we had fun discussing them, and I have the coins, boxes of them graded to prove what I did. Someday you can pull out a couple 2008 w plat unc coin and tell everyone you were right about everything. It won't matter, LOl.
What matters is what we own or have sold and bought back. Someday these coins will be considered classic coins, it may take 50 to 100 years but even the spouse coin low mintages will be marveled at. The VB unc should be the Liberty king despite all the crying over the proof, the Julia Tyler could be the unc king of them all, and many of those under 4000 should do well to. Yes even the 2008 w unc plats should be amazing as will the gold buffalo fractionals you didn't like. And all the discussion here will be long gone and forgotten. So in a way you are just ahead of the game, I will give you credit for that.
<< <i>I think doing coins on Indian tribes is a good idea in theory but would prove too complicated and controversial in practice. Too many questions involving the legitimacy of tribes, etc. Coinage celebrating Indian culture in general without too many specifics toward exact tribes is a better idea. >>
I would have never guessed that good ole Swingline Milton was so wise.
<< <i>
<< <i>I think doing coins on Indian tribes is a good idea in theory but would prove too complicated and controversial in practice. Too many questions involving the legitimacy of tribes, etc. Coinage celebrating Indian culture in general without too many specifics toward exact tribes is a better idea. >>
I would have never guessed that good ole Swingline Milton was so wise. >>
I've learned a few things while being stuck in this basement cubicle, making nothing.
<< <i>Right and you passed at the initial APMEX pricing of $1400 while I didn't, I bought from APMEX or have you already forgotten? I was buying early to cost average into these coins, unlike you. >>
????, still dont understand your point, I purchased the ATB sets too. Not an outstanding call. Anyone could have predicted this one.
<< <i>So why did you say to sell all of them three weeks after the issue went dark from the mint way back before prices even warmed up, or have you forgotten that too? Prices had barely climbed 30% over issue and you were telling us to dump them, the top is here [boy how wrong was that]. You said the same for the plat proofs [wrong again]. >>
I warned of super high prices in many of the coins in that grouping, some on their way to the top. They were not rare and still aren't. They were abundant. They were being traded at coin shows wholesale at much lower prices than ebay, and no one - including yourself, saw the signs......instead you would rather hold and ride the landslide back down. The object is to get out on the uptick, not the downside. Will you still profit over issue price, sure. How about selling your theory on the Buffalo's to those who bought full PR70 DCAM FS sets in the 16k-18k range? How are they doing right about now?
<< <i>Anyway I am buying what I believe, that is what matters to me. You were skipping the 5 oz bullion, I was buying. People can decide that one for themselves. >>
Didnt skip the 5oz bullion at all, another post took out of context. The point was, if you cant acquire these, dont purchase them to the upside (secondary), it is a flippers game-you will get burned. Buy the numismatic version. It will be a level playing field.
<< <i>I have an entire file of all the mint stats going back years. Do you think I have that just for kicks. I came up with my own ideas and that is why I picked what I did on these coins. You didn't but that's OK. At least we had fun discussing them, and I have the coins, boxes of them graded to prove what I did. Someday you can pull out a couple 2008 w plat unc coin and tell everyone you were right about everything. It won't matter, LOl >>
Have the same mint stats, been active on the mint mailing list and all issues since the mid/late 1970's. With all those stats Half, you still cant spot a short struck coin? You certainly couldnt figure out the 08w plat unc 4 coin sets and 1/4's. You also had a very hard time believing the 08w Buffalo Proof final numbers. Generally, I find that those who talk about boxes, usually have a few pieces. It really doesnt matter, other than your total return on those common fractional Buffalo's continue to suffer, month by month, year by year. It's called lost opportunity cost.
I also wouldnt be so sure the fractional Buffalo's dont return. There is a 100 year anniversary coming up.
All that said, and it was a mouthful, I continue to expect Halfstrike to take my posts out of context - and continue to expect him to be the Monday morning quarterback. But it makes for a fun experience around here, otherwise it wouldnt be so lively.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I think doing coins on Indian tribes is a good idea in theory but would prove too complicated and controversial in practice. Too many questions involving the legitimacy of tribes, etc. Coinage celebrating Indian culture in general without too many specifics toward exact tribes is a better idea. >>
I would have never guessed that good ole Swingline Milton was so wise. >>
I've learned a few things while being stuck in this basement cubicle, making nothing. >>
Yeaaaaaaaahhhh. And helping with the TPS report no doubt.
<< <i>7over8, all I can say is that your advice made me a good deal of money in 2008-2009. Thank you. >>
Milton Waddams could have made money during that period.
<< <i>Milton Waddams could have made money during that period. >>
Not if old Milty was collecting MIB toys.......
<< <i>
<< <i>Milton Waddams could have made money during that period. >>
Not if old Milty was collecting MIB toys....... >>
I suppose if he loaded up the truck with Obama colorized quarters he would have taken a hit but you had to try really hard to miss the boat then.
<< <i>If by getting on the boat you mean cornering the vintage Swingline market, then yes. >>
Those red ones are as good as a 1/10 oz buffalo. Well... almost.
I have done quite well thanks to you and Eric, all I can say is that if Buchanan pans out; I will send you both a case of Wine!!!!
<< <i>If by getting on the boat you mean cornering the vintage Swingline market, then yes. >>
I think my wife took mine.
<< <i>7over8,
I have done quite well thanks to you and Eric, all I can say is that if Buchanan pans out; I will send you both a case of Wine!!!! >>
That is very nice but I need to know one thing. 7/8, did you recommend selling the 2008 W Buffalo gold set in 2008? Not trying to put words in your mouth-just curious.
My opinion was also to sell any FS coins where the multiple was rediculous, especially the FS PR70 Proof 1 ounce, 1/2 ounce, 1/10 ounce and any FS MS70 1/2 and 1/10 oz coins. IMO, the only coins worth keeping were the ultra rare 1 oz unc and the 1/4 oz pieces in both proof and unc, for their mintages and the 1/4's allure to buffalo nickel collectors, being the closest in size to the buffalo nickel.
Did they rise somewhat more during the time I formed my opinion - sure, but you didnt want to be there once they slid back. It was a frenzy, not normal short term price levels expected from those coins. Well above what is normally expected. Kind of like 2006 for housing.
<< <i>In 2009, once the 2008w Buffalo Gold set had hit 2.5-4.5x issue price levels (less of a multiple for the big coins, more for the smaller denoms) in raw format, my opinion was that these coins had plateau'd for now and you should keep what you want for your collection, sell others and move on.
My opinion was also to sell any FS coins where the multiple was rediculous, especially the FS PR70 Proof 1 ounce, 1/2 ounce, 1/10 ounce and any FS MS70 1/2 and 1/10 oz coins. IMO, the only coins worth keeping were the ultra rare 1 oz unc and the 1/4 oz pieces in both proof and unc, for their mintages and the 1/4's allure to buffalo nickel collectors, being the closest in size to the buffalo nickel.
Did they rise somewhat more during the time I formed my opinion - sure, but you didnt want to be there once they slid back. It was a frenzy, not normal short term price levels expected from those coins. Well above what is normally expected. Kind of like 2006 for housing.
>>
I did thin out my graded Buffs and kept some raw quarters cause I like size. The sets have held up pretty well though. I looked on ebay and they were about $6000 raw and $9400 in PCGS 70. Looking at the 2008 W Burnished Plat set I saw an NGC 70 at about 5600 and a raw set that did not sell a $5700 or even get a first bid at $5100 (i think). Now looking at a percent gain in value over issue it looks like the Buffs are doing better. Did you ever recommend a sell of the Plats?
I totally lucked out w/grades - about 75% 70s.
I've kept the rest - I just love the things. I think that in time they'll even surpass the 2009 highs.
<< <i>I sold about 33% of my head two years ago this month - WRONG MOVE!!!!! Still kills me thinking about it.
I totally lucked out w/grades - about 75% 70s.
I've kept the rest - I just love the things. I think that in time they'll even surpass the 2009 highs. >>
At least it sounds like you have a herd. I barely have a breeding pair left. Too bad they are both bulls.
<< <i>
I did thin out my graded Buffs and kept some raw quarters cause I like size. The sets have held up pretty well though. I looked on ebay and they were about $6000 raw and $9400 in PCGS 70. Looking at the 2008 W Burnished Plat set I saw an NGC 70 at about 5600 and a raw set that did not sell a $5700 or even get a first bid at $5100 (i think). Now looking at a percent gain in value over issue it looks like the Buffs are doing better. Did you ever recommend a sell of the Plats? >>
Clearly you know that this is not a perfect science and I imagine you are grilling 7over8 for fun, at the end of the day we all live with the decisions we make. I for one am glad that 7over8 and others provide as much information as they do for free. You can either ignore their advise or take it, it is up to you! I do not believe anyone is making you buy any Buchanan's or anything else for that matter. But I will tell you what, I have yet to loose a penny based on his advice, I still got plenty un-circulated Platinum Eagle sets and the fact that I bought them for a little over 2k and can now sell them at over twice of what I paid for them, tickles me pink. Heck if I had my money in bonds I would have to wait 8 years to get the same return, I still have some buffalo sets also to include some nice PR70 first strikes and if it was not for this board and the advice from 70ver8 and others "halfstrike included" I would not have what I have now. My pride and joy is a 2008 First strike one ounce, I picked it up on ebay for $1400, what a beautiful coin. It is rare to enter a hobby and find people willing and able to help the new generation and for that I thank all contributors.
Coin collecting is like playing the stock market, some people try to time it and loose everything, others just buy the stocks and let it ride. The only time I sell any of my coins is when I want to buy something else, so I take some profit off the table and buy the next investment with it. I have been blessed and fortunate enough to be able to buy coins all year that way!!!
<< <i>Now looking at a percent gain in value over issue it looks like the Buffs are doing better. Did you ever recommend a sell of the Plats? >>
The Buff's are doing better - for now. They enjoyed a healthy leap in value, trading currently is thin. IMO, I would only hold the rare one's - the 2-3 coins i mentioned, or sets for your collection.
As for the PLATS, 3 of 4 2008-W are the KEYS of the three year set. IMO, They are a strong hold fo the future. If you need money, you'll be able to take a healthy profit. Routinely, the originally priced $320 1/4 plat unc sells in the $950 range in NGC70.
And even the non-key 1/10 ounce sold recently for $372 raw in OGP.
My Adolph A. Weinman signature
Yup, the only difference is that we're playing with REAL money.
I knew it would happen.
How far will it go ?
:-)