I'm not sure if this has been brought up yet, but you do realize that the "original" Pujols auto cards had to be purchased, right? That means someone is going around buying up all the legit Pujols autos at FULL price and THEN removing the stickers? That doesn't make sense. They would be spending too much on the originals to make the scam worthwhile.
The thread was started to show a fake Pujols auto on a legit TTT card. That is pretty much the only statement in this entire thread that can be authenticated by a 3rd party.
As for those arguing the legitimacy of the scam. If the Pujols auto is not legit who knows if there is a really a scam going on. Topps could be responsible for the fake autos. Some 3rd party card doctorer could be responsible. A sophisticated cabal of scammers could be responsible. Who knows. I am not making any statements concerning any purported scam. However if STTM is correct about the fake autos then he certainly has more of a leg to stand on concerning how those fake autos are being used then any of the other posters on this thread. Whether his suppositions are correct is another matter entirely.
My point is simply that STTM based on his experience included a large assortment of cards that he claimed had fake autos. He also included an array of cards that had legit autos. He even said why he thought the autos were fake, wrong style, slant, etc. I'm not an auto expert, heck I don't even like autos, but if you are going to doubt his credibility on the autos then show why you think they are legit. Instead folks are chiming in about the scam(s) that may be occurring. My thought on scamming is that if there is money to be made, whatever the amount, folks will conduct them.
Interesting read. I have never held a TTT auto in my hand but I was always under the impression that the autographed sticker was embedded in the card.
In regards to the idea of putting an authentic label on a different card does Topps not designate a card as an autographed card? I have seen cards with the sticker on them but figured there was some sort of notation. If Topps is simply using a base card with a sticker autograph they are certainly not helping the situation.
Either way has there ever been an athlete with more controversy regarding their sig? At this point I am sure that an overwhelming amount of authentic Pujols sigs would come back "questionable" from a reputable third party grading service.
<< <i>The thread was started to show a fake Pujols auto on a legit TTT card. That is pretty much the only statement in this entire thread that can be authenticated by a 3rd party.
As for those arguing the legitimacy of the scam. If the Pujols auto is not legit who knows if there is a really a scam going on. Topps could be responsible for the fake autos. Some 3rd party card doctorer could be responsible. A sophisticated cabal of scammers could be responsible. Who knows. I am not making any statements concerning any purported scam. However if STTM is correct about the fake autos then he certainly has more of a leg to stand on concerning how those fake autos are being used then any of the other posters on this thread. Whether his suppositions are correct is another matter entirely.
My point is simply that STTM based on his experience included a large assortment of cards that he claimed had fake autos. He also included an array of cards that had legit autos. He even said why he thought the autos were fake, wrong style, slant, etc. I'm not an auto expert, heck I don't even like autos, but if you are going to doubt his credibility on the autos then show why you think they are legit. Instead folks are chiming in about the scam(s) that may be occurring. My thought on scamming is that if there is money to be made, whatever the amount, folks will conduct them.
Robb >>
For those that question the scam, myself included, we just need to showed how this scam is even possible. The cards have the signature stickers embedded, they are not on the surface like from which other sticker scams are. Where is the connection from the sellers? Where again are the mass of Topps base cards with the stickers on them? Where did they buy these cards to begin with? Not one has been shown on eBay and then on eBay again....so not eBay.
The odds of someone being about to do this. Swoop in around the US and grab these cards as they are pulled from packs, fake them and instantly dump them back into hands of unsuspecting dealers...and do all of this within a few days....seems not just unlikely, but impossible. So if one believes in the scam, then they have to assume that ALL the dealers are in on it, which also seems illogical. In fact, the only logical answer is they are coming out of packs that way. If anyone believes otherwise, please just explain...you don't even have to show evidence...just explain how this is even logically possible?
I hope you don't conclude someone is right now flying to Nebraska to work a deal on the last Pujols auto pulled so he can take the sticker auto, replace it with a fake, and turn around and dump it on another dealer...I would assume at a profit. Unless of course, STTM is saying they are making all their profit on the real auto on a base card....which again...where are they...and as another pointed out.....why would you even do that. IF you went that far, might as well put a fake Pujols on the base card right?
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
It makes sense on the surface to say that if someone put a fake Pujols sigs around a pair of authentic sigs that it would appear legit. However, the sig still has to look decent to pull it off. With that being said, why not just buy a ton of sticker autos of no name players, erase the sig, insert a Pujols sig, put it on another inexpensive base card and sell it? Even if you put a legit Pujols sig on another card you have a pair of bogus cards at the end of the day. As already mentioned, to pull this off you either have to pull the Pujols card from a pack or invest way too much money up front. Not saying this isn't being done, just trying to think it through. At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes.
I wish Topps would emboss sticker autos like other companies have.
Not all people (like my Dad) would ever think a sticker auto could be fake.
Not all people research cards. To the earlier poster saying it's not worth it. Buy a $100 Pujols and $5 common. Real Pujols goes on a 2003 Topps EX insert or some other oddball issue most would not know existed. Some do research, but you only need one interested buyer that doesn't. Fake auto replaces where real one was. Card sells without a blink of an eye. Sell faked card for $100 or give a "steal" for $75 to ensure a quick sell and your $5 card is now "worth it".
Here's a few threads on the subject. There's tons more.
On the 1/1. One of the alleged fakes from last night. I figured if a scammer was willing to mess with this sticker and risk ruining a $400 card, then anything is possible and I will bow to the expertise of Stantheman.
<< <i>On the 1/1. One of the alleged fakes from last night. I figured if a scammer was willing to mess with this sticker and risk ruining a $400 card, then anything is possible and I will bow to the expertise of Stantheman. >>
<< <i>On the 1/1. One of the alleged fakes from last night. I figured if a scammer was willing to mess with this sticker and risk ruining a $400 card, then anything is possible and I will bow to the expertise of Stantheman. >>
so he was right? >>
IF the autos are fake....that would not prove Stan right.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
So what would happen if the card was sent to PSA to be slabbed? They would not look at the auto correct and they would just slab the card and grade it. Would it not be a better scam to send the "fixed" card to PSA to have grade attached to it.
"So what would happen if the card was sent to PSA to be slabbed? They would not look at the auto correct and they would just slab the card and grade it. Would it not be a better scam to send the "fixed" card to PSA to have grade attached to it. "
//////////////////////////
PSA would have a good chance of catching the alteration to the card. (Other TPGs would as well.)
The speculated scam would work best by simply using the "COA" on the back of the card.
................
The "stolen" label could be authenticated as part of a custom card or other item; PSA/DNA might or might not do it; I dunno.
................................
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
<< <i>wasnt it already determined a ghost writer is impossible.....they watch you closer than a whizinator test when you sign those stickers >>
It might depend on the player
My friends sister dates Baltimore Ravens LB Tavaris Gooden,and one time she was complaining that he was staying up late night signing little stickers for card companies. There was no one watching him sign the stickers.
Now I dont know what company he was signing for though
wasnt it already determined a ghost writer is impossible.....they watch you closer than a whizinator test when you sign those stickers
"Impossible?" Anything is possible. Plus, the fact of the matter is I don't think signing some stickers is that big of a deal to a professional athlete. It's a big deal to people on these boards but not to professional athletes. Plus, I doubt the security is as high as one might hope. Of course, I am sure it's different for Albert since he's Albert. Probably two armed security guards watching him at all times to make sure he signs every card the same.
Whenever stmm is in a debate of this nature, someone always gets after him for things he didn't say, or insinuate.
I have nothing worth adding, but I find this thread very interesting. Something seems to be going on. Maybe it's nothing, I don't know. I'd like to see this sorted out.
At least hammered requested the PSA/DNA opinion. Not that I have much faith in anyones opinion when it comes to autos. But we're all curious about the results.
I am not questioning you but i witnessed someone pull the triple auto like the one you have posted with my own eyes. the Pujols sticker looked different right out of the box..
A collector of all things Braves Always looking for Chipper Jones cards. Im a very focused collector of cards from 1909 - 2012...LOL
Two people on this thread have witnessed Pujols TTT auto cards pulled fresh from a pack that looked identical to the ones STM says are fake.
One knowledgeable collector on this forum has inspected the TTT's closely and believes it would be absolutely impossible to remove the real sticker and replace it with a fake without destroying the card.
STM claims the 1/1 Pujols TTT is a fake. Surely he can't be serious, and feel free to call him Shirley.
"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes."
i would not be shocked by this at all.
It is also highly probable that after signing several thousand of these ridiculous stickers his hand cramped and he started writing with his toes.
Here is the item going to PSA/DNA for the quick opinion service, probably not the 'worst' looking one but far from the better one's.
My personal experience with the quick opinion service was poor, paid for a bunch of cards to get it, they failed and then they showed up in psa/dna cases a while later...
I'm still saying that having Topps chime in on this would be the most valuable input (more than opinions, psa/dna, etc...).
"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes."
i would not be shocked by this at all.
Members of the Pujols gang may jump off a building if this were proved to be the case.
<< <i>"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes." >>
Looks like this is the case, unfortunately.
LIKELY NOT GENUINE! was the reply I just got from PSA/DNA
So first, let me give credit to STMM for at least recognizing the fake sigs. Stan - I, for one, won't question your opinion on Pujols autos anymore. Well done.
But let's assume we can take PSA/DNA's opinion as final authority, and I think we can (sounds like Storm was getting a similar vibe from collectors on other boards today) this may even create a bigger issue, that of a Pujols ghost-signer.
As much as some want to believe these TTTs are the work of a scamming ring, none of it makes any sense at all - from the difficulty removing the embedded stickers, to the testimony of board members witnessing identical autos coming out of packs, to the fact that these "fakes" are so geographically scattered, to the brief time frame since the product's release, to the fact that all TTT stickers look perfect with no trace of sticker-tampering.
The only conclusion has to be that Pujols had someone else sign his stickers for him. Wow
<< <i>"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes." >>
Looks like this is the case, unfortunately.
LIKELY NOT GENUINE! was the reply I just got from PSA/DNA
So first, let me give credit to STMM for at least recognizing the fake sigs. Stan - I, for one, won't question your opinion on Pujols autos anymore. Well done.
But let's assume we can take PSA/DNA's opinion as final authority, and I think we can (sounds like Storm was getting a similar vibe from collectors on other boards today) this may even create a bigger issue, that of a Pujols ghost-signer.
As much as some want to believe these TTTs are the work of a scamming ring, none of it makes any sense at all - from the difficulty removing the embedded stickers, to the testimony of board members witnessing identical autos coming out of packs, to the fact that these "fakes" are so geographically scattered, to the brief time frame since the product's release, to the fact that all TTT stickers look perfect with no trace of sticker-tampering.
The only conclusion has to be that Pujols had someone else sign his stickers for him. Wow >>
Hammer,
Thank you for coming straight. I have some added respect for you, as that's not something many of the people who don't like me on here will do.
I also hope my haters on the FCB message boards will stop insulting me, spreading lies, and admit they were wrong. Gilmo, leathtech, pinetar, justinmandawg, ect.. You all have a lot of egg on your faces.
As I have said from the start, I know Pujols signature as well as anyone in the hobby. I'm not trying to brag or come off as arrogant, just being honest.
Now, there is more to get to the bottom of this matter. I will do my part.
<< <i>So what do they do with the real Pujols auto sticker after they peel it off and replace it with a dud? >>
At last weekend's St. Louis Sportscollectors Show, a guy walking around the show had (2) Topps Pujols base cards with authentic Pujols sticker signatures on them. The Pujols autographs were real, but the (2) cards in question were not issued signed. They were base cards. It sparked my curiousity, so I asked him where he got them, and he said he made a deal with a guy on the internet, and got a good deal on the pair. When I pressed a little further, he wanted to know why I was so interested, and I explained to him the situation. He claimed he got them from a guy in NJ. I tried to get the guy's name, but he declined. He claimed he paid $200 for the pair, but he had no idea that the (2) base cards were never pulled from packs like that, and that they were in fact 'custom-made'. I explained to him that $200 for (2) authentic Pujols signatures was not a bad deal, but it bothered me as to how the seller obtained the (2) genuine Topps Pujols signed stickers, to place on the base cards. At the time, I thought maybe some of them might have been backdoored or stolen from Topps, but then I started noticing the forged Pujols signatures on the TTT stickers, so I suspect this may tie into some of what we are seeing. After I thought about it, it's a pretty clever scam by the scammers, as they can make money on a Pujols signature twice. >>
<< <i>"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes." >>
Looks like this is the case, unfortunately.
LIKELY NOT GENUINE! was the reply I just got from PSA/DNA
So first, let me give credit to STMM for at least recognizing the fake sigs. Stan - I, for one, won't question your opinion on Pujols autos anymore. Well done.
But let's assume we can take PSA/DNA's opinion as final authority, and I think we can (sounds like Storm was getting a similar vibe from collectors on other boards today) this may even create a bigger issue, that of a Pujols ghost-signer.
As much as some want to believe these TTTs are the work of a scamming ring, none of it makes any sense at all - from the difficulty removing the embedded stickers, to the testimony of board members witnessing identical autos coming out of packs, to the fact that these "fakes" are so geographically scattered, to the brief time frame since the product's release, to the fact that all TTT stickers look perfect with no trace of sticker-tampering.
The only conclusion has to be that Pujols had someone else sign his stickers for him. Wow >>
Hammer,
Thank you for coming straight. I have some added respect for you, as that's not something many of the people who don't like me on here will do.
I also hope my haters on the FCB message boards will stop insulting me, spreading lies, and admit they were wrong. Gilmo, leathtech, pinetar, justinmandawg, ect.. You all have a lot of egg on your faces.
As I have said from the start, I know Pujols signature as well as anyone in the hobby. I'm not trying to brag or come off as arrogant, just being honest.
Now, there is more to get to the bottom of this matter. I will do my part. >>
I would not take too big of a victory lap if I was you. You were wrong and you slammed what appears to be several honest dealers by jumping to conclusions.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
Yeah I guess,,, Usually when stan says something I take his word.. dude seems to know his stuff very well. He just catches alot of crap on these boards..
Can we maybe just stick the the issue here and stay away from the silly personal fighting (Meteorite)? Who's going to be the first to call Topps on Monday?!
<< <i>"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes." >>
Looks like this is the case, unfortunately.
LIKELY NOT GENUINE! was the reply I just got from PSA/DNA
So first, let me give credit to STMM for at least recognizing the fake sigs. Stan - I, for one, won't question your opinion on Pujols autos anymore. Well done.
But let's assume we can take PSA/DNA's opinion as final authority, and I think we can (sounds like Storm was getting a similar vibe from collectors on other boards today) this may even create a bigger issue, that of a Pujols ghost-signer.
As much as some want to believe these TTTs are the work of a scamming ring, none of it makes any sense at all - from the difficulty removing the embedded stickers, to the testimony of board members witnessing identical autos coming out of packs, to the fact that these "fakes" are so geographically scattered, to the brief time frame since the product's release, to the fact that all TTT stickers look perfect with no trace of sticker-tampering.
The only conclusion has to be that Pujols had someone else sign his stickers for him. Wow >>
Hammer,
Thank you for coming straight. I have some added respect for you, as that's not something many of the people who don't like me on here will do.
I also hope my haters on the FCB message boards will stop insulting me, spreading lies, and admit they were wrong. Gilmo, leathtech, pinetar, justinmandawg, ect.. You all have a lot of egg on your faces.
As I have said from the start, I know Pujols signature as well as anyone in the hobby. I'm not trying to brag or come off as arrogant, just being honest.
Now, there is more to get to the bottom of this matter. I will do my part. >>
I would not take too big of a victory lap if I was you. You were wrong and you slammed what appears to be several honest dealers by jumping to conclusions. >>
There is no victory lap. Show me where I slammed any dealer, or else admit you are lying and making stuff up. All I stated or pointed out in this thread was cards that had fake Pujols signatures. That's it.
There is no victory lap. Show me where I slammed any dealer, or else admit you are lying and making stuff up. All I stated or pointed out in this thread was cards that had fake Pujols signatures. That's it. >>
Sorry Stan, but I have to jump back in on this...From page 4
"There is ZERO proof that Pujols ever gave Topps problems on living up to his end of their contractual agreements. And there have never been any issues with Pujols having other signatures coming straight from packs with signatures that did not match up to his authentic signature(not even on stickers). No issues ever of clubhouse signatures, or his wife signing them. They have always matched up. No one has produced a youtube video clip or proof that a Pujols signature straight from a Topps pack matched the forgeries I have shown here. That's because this stuff is happening after they come out of the packs, and the evidence is all over with people forging Pujols signature right and left on buybacks, 2001 Fleer Legacy, 2001 Bowman Chrome, ect. All it takes is for one scammer to pick these cards up at a show, remove the Pujols sticker, replace with a forgery, and then start peddling them on Ebay through various id's and at various shows to unsuspecting people(many times they use alias id's on Ebay that belong to their friends who assist in completing the scams for $$). That is how they can spread all over so quickly. Meanwhile, the scammers are left with an authentic Pujols sig that they can peddle later on for at least a hundred or more dollars. They get to make money on 2 ends of one card. "
That was the response you gave me after I insinuated a ghost signer. Adding that to the pictures you pulled from Ebay is proof enough that you were accusing honest dealers.
katcards, no it's not. As I have said time and time again, I NEVER SINGLED OUT ANY SPECIFIC SELLER OR ACCUSED THEM OF ANTYTHING. I did point of cards that had fake signatures, posted images of the card, and links to the specific cards in question, so others could see where I got the scans from. You people are splitting hairs over nonsense, while trying to twist my words so it fits what you want to make it, and I see no point in going back and forth anymore. It's pointless.
There is no victory lap. Show me where I slammed any dealer, or else admit you are lying and making stuff up. All I stated or pointed out in this thread was cards that had fake Pujols signatures. That's it. >>
A see I was right reply is a victory lap on a message board.
You claimed to know of a scam on someone removing the sigs and replacing them. You stated in many words that it would not be possible for Pujols to not have signed all his stickers. Despite being shown that many dealers in different places were selling them, you were sticking to your scam theory...that is what this whole thread is about right? I guess you now are starting to question it now? Anyway, even when showed one had 100% feedback and was not a new seller, was not selling other NC fakes/fraud items, you did not let up. So you tell me, how is claiming several dealers selling high end cards that were worked on not slamming them....when it is wrong? If one was to believe your scam theory, due to the short time of the products release, some of all of them would have to be a part of the scam as well.
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
This goes w/o sayimg, so I will say it..................
A QO - regardless of the rendering - is not ALWAYS dispositive to an authenticity controversy.
No matter how skilled/experienced the opinion-giver is, the opinion can change when the item is examined inhand. Also, ANY opinion can be mistaken.
For our purposes, the QO will have to do.
.....................................
If some of the other ones come back good, we will not know what to think.
..................
My sense of it remains that at least SOME of the cards are likely "homemade."
BUT, that is largely because I am having a hard time getting my head around the notion that TOPPS got scammed. My bias against EBAY sellers also paints my theory.
IF TOPPS is shown to be a victim here, they better get out in front of the problem FAST.
.................................
That the 1/1 is bad is a shock to me.
I fear that means (edit: there) is a TOPPS problem.
...............................................
Good catch STTM.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Here is the item going to PSA/DNA for the quick opinion service, probably not the 'worst' looking one but far from the better one's.
My personal experience with the quick opinion service was poor, paid for a bunch of cards to get it, they failed and then they showed up in psa/dna cases a while later...
I'm still saying that having Topps chime in on this would be the most valuable input (more than opinions, psa/dna, etc...). >>
if you guys cant see that the Foil Sticker in the middle is different than the other two, then you have blinders on....clearly after market job....
Secondly even if Pujols DID have ghost signers , who cares, his post 2001 autos are only worth about $50 and there will be A MILLION of them by the time he retires...they are good for kids.....the adults collect only 2001 cards....that is why i POLICE the 2001, THAT is MY territory...
thirdly, LSU, just because some poster who nobody knows says "i saw it come out of a pack like that" does not disprove STM....in fact, you qucik support of that post makes me question the posters statement even more knowing how anti STM and Pujols you are....
Good and honest sellers can be taken and list a card that they are unaware of having a bad signature. We have seen it so many times on this forum. Honest sellers can be taken, it does not make them bad pelople if they list something that they may be unaware of what they are selling.
I know what I seen at the St. Louis show last weekend, and we have PSA/DNA failing one of the Pujols signatures that I said was a forgery. I'm done with this matter, so you all can split hairs if you want.
if you guys cant see that the Foil Sticker in the middle is different than the other two, then you have blinders on....clearly after market job....
Secondly even if Pujols DID have ghost signers , who cares, his post 2001 autos are only worth about $50 and there will be A MILLION of them by the time he retires...they are good for kids.....the adults collect only 2001 cards....that is why i POLICE the 2001, THAT is MY territory...
I agree the foils look completely different but some of the ones STM says are real have the foils which look different. That's the part that confused me. I dont' know crap about Pujols sigs.
Changing subjects I can't believe you would excuse Pujols for using ghost signers. That's fraud.
If this is a Topps problem, the foils being different is easily explained by Topps using dead stock stickers that AP signed some time ago. Happens pretty often really.
<< <i>If this is a Topps problem, the foils being different is easily explained by Topps using dead stock stickers that AP signed some time ago. Happens pretty often really. >>
exactly, i don't think that should be the focus here...
i dont think Pujols ever used a ghost signer...i said EVEN IF
For those of us who are VERY FAMILIAR with his auto, its not difficult to differentiate a fake Pujols auto from a real Auto...
i, like a few others on this board, consider myself an EXPERT on Pujols Auto's and rookie cards....others on this board are experts on other things (some not even cards -storm=EBAY)....
As experts in specific fields, we know more than a PSA grader, in regards to a specific auto....a PSA grader has to look at thousands of autos, versus a specialist concentrating on one......
Therefore when a Specialist comes on the boards with information, it is best to take the word of this person and not try to refute them blindly...
Collective Specialized Knowledge gives power to a board.....
<< <i>i dont think Pujols ever used a ghost signer...i said EVEN IF
For those of us who are VERY FAMILIAR with his auto, its not difficult to differentiate a fake Pujols auto from a real Auto...
i, like a few others on this board, consider myself an EXPERT on Pujols Auto's and rookie cards....others on this board are experts on other things (some not even cards -storm=EBAY)....
As experts in specific fields, we know more than a PSA grader, in regards to a specific auto....a PSA grader has to look at thousands of autos, versus a specialist concentrating on one......
Therefore when a Specialist comes on the boards with information, it is best to take the word of this person and not try to refute them blindly...
Collective Specialized Knowledge gives power to a board..... >>
Ok, now you're going overboard on the self-praise. I will grant you have more Pujols auto knowledge than the average board member, but take it easy - PSA/DNA you're not.
I'm also surprised that you are acting a little flippantly toward the possibility that your guy is having someone else sign his stuff.
If this is true, it raises more serious concerns than if a guy from NC is peddling a handful of fakes. It has larger implications for the auto-on-card industry as a whole, IMO.
It's not stmm's fault that sellers on ebay have these cards for sale. Just because they are good sellers doesn't make it wrong for someone to point out the fakes and add theories or suspicions to what is obviously a huge problem. I can see more black eyes coming out of this before it's over.
stmm deserves a lot of credit for a good catch. Maybe he doesn't have the story straight yet, but it was a dam good catch. Well done Tim.
Comments
As for those arguing the legitimacy of the scam. If the Pujols auto is not legit who knows if there is a really a scam going on. Topps could be responsible for the fake autos. Some 3rd party card doctorer could be responsible. A sophisticated cabal of scammers could be responsible. Who knows. I am not making any statements concerning any purported scam. However if STTM is correct about the fake autos then he certainly has more of a leg to stand on concerning how those fake autos are being used then any of the other posters on this thread. Whether his suppositions are correct is another matter entirely.
My point is simply that STTM based on his experience included a large assortment of cards that he claimed had fake autos. He also included an array of cards that had legit autos. He even said why he thought the autos were fake, wrong style, slant, etc. I'm not an auto expert, heck I don't even like autos, but if you are going to doubt his credibility on the autos then show why you think they are legit. Instead folks are chiming in about the scam(s) that may be occurring. My thought on scamming is that if there is money to be made, whatever the amount, folks will conduct them.
Robb
In regards to the idea of putting an authentic label on a different card does Topps not designate a card as an autographed card? I have seen cards with the sticker on them but figured there was some sort of notation. If Topps is simply using a base card with a sticker autograph they are certainly not helping the situation.
Either way has there ever been an athlete with more controversy regarding their sig? At this point I am sure that an overwhelming amount of authentic Pujols sigs would come back "questionable" from a reputable third party grading service.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
<< <i>The thread was started to show a fake Pujols auto on a legit TTT card. That is pretty much the only statement in this entire thread that can be authenticated by a 3rd party.
As for those arguing the legitimacy of the scam. If the Pujols auto is not legit who knows if there is a really a scam going on. Topps could be responsible for the fake autos. Some 3rd party card doctorer could be responsible. A sophisticated cabal of scammers could be responsible. Who knows. I am not making any statements concerning any purported scam. However if STTM is correct about the fake autos then he certainly has more of a leg to stand on concerning how those fake autos are being used then any of the other posters on this thread. Whether his suppositions are correct is another matter entirely.
My point is simply that STTM based on his experience included a large assortment of cards that he claimed had fake autos. He also included an array of cards that had legit autos. He even said why he thought the autos were fake, wrong style, slant, etc. I'm not an auto expert, heck I don't even like autos, but if you are going to doubt his credibility on the autos then show why you think they are legit. Instead folks are chiming in about the scam(s) that may be occurring. My thought on scamming is that if there is money to be made, whatever the amount, folks will conduct them.
Robb >>
For those that question the scam, myself included, we just need to showed how this scam is even possible. The cards have the signature stickers embedded, they are not on the surface like from which other sticker scams are. Where is the connection from the sellers? Where again are the mass of Topps base cards with the stickers on them? Where did they buy these cards to begin with? Not one has been shown on eBay and then on eBay again....so not eBay.
The odds of someone being about to do this. Swoop in around the US and grab these cards as they are pulled from packs, fake them and instantly dump them back into hands of unsuspecting dealers...and do all of this within a few days....seems not just unlikely, but impossible. So if one believes in the scam, then they have to assume that ALL the dealers are in on it, which also seems illogical. In fact, the only logical answer is they are coming out of packs that way. If anyone believes otherwise, please just explain...you don't even have to show evidence...just explain how this is even logically possible?
I hope you don't conclude someone is right now flying to Nebraska to work a deal on the last Pujols auto pulled so he can take the sticker auto, replace it with a fake, and turn around and dump it on another dealer...I would assume at a profit. Unless of course, STTM is saying they are making all their profit on the real auto on a base card....which again...where are they...and as another pointed out.....why would you even do that. IF you went that far, might as well put a fake Pujols on the base card right?
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
But the product has only been live for about 2 weeks now.
Ripken in the Minors * Ripken in the Minors Facebook Page
Not all people (like my Dad) would ever think a sticker auto could be fake.
Not all people research cards. To the earlier poster saying it's not worth it. Buy a $100 Pujols and $5 common. Real Pujols goes on a 2003 Topps EX insert or some other oddball issue most would not know existed. Some do research, but you only need one interested buyer that doesn't. Fake auto replaces where real one was. Card sells without a blink of an eye. Sell faked card for $100 or give a "steal" for $75 to ensure a quick sell and your $5 card is now "worth it".
Here's a few threads on the subject. There's tons more.
SCU Sticker scam article
SCU article and link to video how to remove stickers
I posted this "How to" info as it's easy to figure out. If the masses think I should remove it, lmk.
TCC thread on sticker scam
SCULU Manning fake sticker added
Was the Donruss/Kodak Anticounterfeiting solution ever implemented?
Appears they need to come up with something for sticker autos.
Also, anyone heard from Topps?
One of the alleged fakes from last night.
I figured if a scammer was willing to mess with this sticker and risk ruining a $400 card, then anything is possible and I will bow to the expertise of Stantheman.
<< <i>On the 1/1.
One of the alleged fakes from last night.
I figured if a scammer was willing to mess with this sticker and risk ruining a $400 card, then anything is possible and I will bow to the expertise of Stantheman. >>
so he was right?
<< <i>
<< <i>On the 1/1.
One of the alleged fakes from last night.
I figured if a scammer was willing to mess with this sticker and risk ruining a $400 card, then anything is possible and I will bow to the expertise of Stantheman. >>
so he was right? >>
IF the autos are fake....that would not prove Stan right.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
like people have been saying Pujols could be using a ghost signer
//////////////////////////
PSA would have a good chance of catching the alteration
to the card. (Other TPGs would as well.)
The speculated scam would work best by simply using the
"COA" on the back of the card.
................
The "stolen" label could be authenticated as part of a custom
card or other item; PSA/DNA might or might not do it; I dunno.
................................
<< <i>wasnt it already determined a ghost writer is impossible.....they watch you closer than a whizinator test when you sign those stickers >>
It might depend on the player
My friends sister dates Baltimore Ravens LB Tavaris Gooden,and one time she was complaining that he was staying up late night signing little stickers for card companies.
There was no one watching him sign the stickers.
Now I dont know what company he was signing for though
<< <i>wasnt it already determined a ghost writer is impossible.....they watch you closer than a whizinator test when you sign those stickers >>
///////////////////////////
Some of us think/thought that.
I dunno, though.
.................
A fair number of folks on other threads don't like the
looks of some of the sigs.
Almost nobody buys the "switch theory." But, some
agree the sigs seem wrong.
....................
The 1/1 card looks almost identical to one I looked at
on a PSA/DNA ball.
I still cannot find any flats that compare well to the
questioned sigs, but PSA/DNA has TONS of possibles
to compare.
There would be no sound risk/reward reason to remove
the sticker from the 1/1.
The money cards - from a switch point of view - would
be the multi-sig cards.
"Impossible?" Anything is possible. Plus, the fact of the matter is I don't think signing some stickers is that big of a deal to a professional athlete. It's a big deal to people on these boards but not to professional athletes. Plus, I doubt the security is as high as one might hope. Of course, I am sure it's different for Albert since he's Albert. Probably two armed security guards watching him at all times to make sure he signs every card the same.
////////////////////////
Lots of them may think of it as paid work, and are aggravated
when they actually have to do it.
They all sign docs stating that THEY signed the items. Seems
like a stupid thing for them to lie about; just to avoid a little
"work."
I have nothing worth adding, but I find this thread very interesting. Something seems to be going on. Maybe it's nothing, I don't know. I'd like to see this sorted out.
At least hammered requested the PSA/DNA opinion. Not that I have much faith in anyones opinion when it comes to autos. But we're all curious about the results.
have posted with my own eyes. the Pujols sticker looked different right out of the box..
Always looking for Chipper Jones cards.
Im a very focused collector of cards from 1909 - 2012...LOL
One knowledgeable collector on this forum has inspected the TTT's closely and believes it would be absolutely impossible to remove the real sticker and replace it with a fake without destroying the card.
STM claims the 1/1 Pujols TTT is a fake. Surely he can't be serious, and feel free to call him Shirley.
i would not be shocked by this at all.
It is also highly probable that after signing several thousand of these ridiculous stickers his hand cramped and he started writing with his toes.
Here is the item going to PSA/DNA for the quick opinion service, probably not the 'worst' looking one but far from the better one's.
My personal experience with the quick opinion service was poor, paid for a bunch of cards to get it, they failed and then they showed up in psa/dna cases a while later...
I'm still saying that having Topps chime in on this would be the most valuable input (more than opinions, psa/dna, etc...).
i would not be shocked by this at all.
Members of the Pujols gang may jump off a building if this were proved to be the case.
<< <i>"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes." >>
Looks like this is the case, unfortunately.
LIKELY NOT GENUINE! was the reply I just got from PSA/DNA
So first, let me give credit to STMM for at least recognizing the fake sigs. Stan - I, for one, won't question your opinion on Pujols autos anymore. Well done.
But let's assume we can take PSA/DNA's opinion as final authority, and I think we can (sounds like Storm was getting a similar vibe from collectors on other boards today) this may even create a bigger issue, that of a Pujols ghost-signer.
As much as some want to believe these TTTs are the work of a scamming ring, none of it makes any sense at all - from the difficulty removing the embedded stickers, to the testimony of board members witnessing identical autos coming out of packs, to the fact that these "fakes" are so geographically scattered, to the brief time frame since the product's release, to the fact that all TTT stickers look perfect with no trace of sticker-tampering.
The only conclusion has to be that Pujols had someone else sign his stickers for him. Wow
<< <i>
<< <i>"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes." >>
Looks like this is the case, unfortunately.
LIKELY NOT GENUINE! was the reply I just got from PSA/DNA
So first, let me give credit to STMM for at least recognizing the fake sigs. Stan - I, for one, won't question your opinion on Pujols autos anymore. Well done.
But let's assume we can take PSA/DNA's opinion as final authority, and I think we can (sounds like Storm was getting a similar vibe from collectors on other boards today) this may even create a bigger issue, that of a Pujols ghost-signer.
As much as some want to believe these TTTs are the work of a scamming ring, none of it makes any sense at all - from the difficulty removing the embedded stickers, to the testimony of board members witnessing identical autos coming out of packs, to the fact that these "fakes" are so geographically scattered, to the brief time frame since the product's release, to the fact that all TTT stickers look perfect with no trace of sticker-tampering.
The only conclusion has to be that Pujols had someone else sign his stickers for him. Wow >>
Hammer,
Thank you for coming straight. I have some added respect for you, as that's not something many of the people who don't like me on here will do.
I also hope my haters on the FCB message boards will stop insulting me, spreading lies, and admit they were wrong. Gilmo, leathtech, pinetar, justinmandawg, ect.. You all have a lot of egg on your faces.
As I have said from the start, I know Pujols signature as well as anyone in the hobby. I'm not trying to brag or come off as arrogant, just being honest.
Now, there is more to get to the bottom of this matter. I will do my part.
<< <i>
<< <i>So what do they do with the real Pujols auto sticker after they peel it off and replace it with a dud? >>
At last weekend's St. Louis Sportscollectors Show, a guy walking around the show had (2) Topps Pujols base cards with authentic Pujols sticker signatures on them. The Pujols autographs were real, but the (2) cards in question were not issued signed. They were base cards. It sparked my curiousity, so I asked him where he got them, and he said he made a deal with a guy on the internet, and got a good deal on the pair. When I pressed a little further, he wanted to know why I was so interested, and I explained to him the situation. He claimed he got them from a guy in NJ. I tried to get the guy's name, but he declined. He claimed he paid $200 for the pair, but he had no idea that the (2) base cards were never pulled from packs like that, and that they were in fact 'custom-made'. I explained to him that $200 for (2) authentic Pujols signatures was not a bad deal, but it bothered me as to how the seller obtained the (2) genuine Topps Pujols signed stickers, to place on the base cards. At the time, I thought maybe some of them might have been backdoored or stolen from Topps, but then I started noticing the forged Pujols signatures on the TTT stickers, so I suspect this may tie into some of what we are seeing. After I thought about it, it's a pretty clever scam by the scammers, as they can make money on a Pujols signature twice. >>
Stan thanks for the reply.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes." >>
Looks like this is the case, unfortunately.
LIKELY NOT GENUINE! was the reply I just got from PSA/DNA
So first, let me give credit to STMM for at least recognizing the fake sigs. Stan - I, for one, won't question your opinion on Pujols autos anymore. Well done.
But let's assume we can take PSA/DNA's opinion as final authority, and I think we can (sounds like Storm was getting a similar vibe from collectors on other boards today) this may even create a bigger issue, that of a Pujols ghost-signer.
As much as some want to believe these TTTs are the work of a scamming ring, none of it makes any sense at all - from the difficulty removing the embedded stickers, to the testimony of board members witnessing identical autos coming out of packs, to the fact that these "fakes" are so geographically scattered, to the brief time frame since the product's release, to the fact that all TTT stickers look perfect with no trace of sticker-tampering.
The only conclusion has to be that Pujols had someone else sign his stickers for him. Wow >>
Hammer,
Thank you for coming straight. I have some added respect for you, as that's not something many of the people who don't like me on here will do.
I also hope my haters on the FCB message boards will stop insulting me, spreading lies, and admit they were wrong. Gilmo, leathtech, pinetar, justinmandawg, ect.. You all have a lot of egg on your faces.
As I have said from the start, I know Pujols signature as well as anyone in the hobby. I'm not trying to brag or come off as arrogant, just being honest.
Now, there is more to get to the bottom of this matter. I will do my part. >>
I would not take too big of a victory lap if I was you. You were wrong and you slammed what appears to be several honest dealers by jumping to conclusions.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>Holly, freakin crap! >>
Yeah I guess,,, Usually when stan says something I take his word.. dude seems to know his stuff very well. He just catches alot of crap on these boards..
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>"At this point I would lean towards the autograph stickers not being legit Pujols sigs to begin with. What an implosion that would be if we found out that Albert tried using a ghostwriter to handle a big portion of his autographed cards. yikes." >>
Looks like this is the case, unfortunately.
LIKELY NOT GENUINE! was the reply I just got from PSA/DNA
So first, let me give credit to STMM for at least recognizing the fake sigs. Stan - I, for one, won't question your opinion on Pujols autos anymore. Well done.
But let's assume we can take PSA/DNA's opinion as final authority, and I think we can (sounds like Storm was getting a similar vibe from collectors on other boards today) this may even create a bigger issue, that of a Pujols ghost-signer.
As much as some want to believe these TTTs are the work of a scamming ring, none of it makes any sense at all - from the difficulty removing the embedded stickers, to the testimony of board members witnessing identical autos coming out of packs, to the fact that these "fakes" are so geographically scattered, to the brief time frame since the product's release, to the fact that all TTT stickers look perfect with no trace of sticker-tampering.
The only conclusion has to be that Pujols had someone else sign his stickers for him. Wow >>
Hammer,
Thank you for coming straight. I have some added respect for you, as that's not something many of the people who don't like me on here will do.
I also hope my haters on the FCB message boards will stop insulting me, spreading lies, and admit they were wrong. Gilmo, leathtech, pinetar, justinmandawg, ect.. You all have a lot of egg on your faces.
As I have said from the start, I know Pujols signature as well as anyone in the hobby. I'm not trying to brag or come off as arrogant, just being honest.
Now, there is more to get to the bottom of this matter. I will do my part. >>
I would not take too big of a victory lap if I was you. You were wrong and you slammed what appears to be several honest dealers by jumping to conclusions. >>
There is no victory lap. Show me where I slammed any dealer, or else admit you are lying and making stuff up. All I stated or pointed out in this thread was cards that had fake Pujols signatures. That's it.
<< <i>
There is no victory lap. Show me where I slammed any dealer, or else admit you are lying and making stuff up. All I stated or pointed out in this thread was cards that had fake Pujols signatures. That's it. >>
Sorry Stan, but I have to jump back in on this...From page 4
"There is ZERO proof that Pujols ever gave Topps problems on living up to his end of their contractual agreements. And there have never been any issues with Pujols having other signatures coming straight from packs with signatures that did not match up to his authentic signature(not even on stickers). No issues ever of clubhouse signatures, or his wife signing them. They have always matched up. No one has produced a youtube video clip or proof that a Pujols signature straight from a Topps pack matched the forgeries I have shown here. That's because this stuff is happening after they come out of the packs, and the evidence is all over with people forging Pujols signature right and left on buybacks, 2001 Fleer Legacy, 2001 Bowman Chrome, ect. All it takes is for one scammer to pick these cards up at a show, remove the Pujols sticker, replace with a forgery, and then start peddling them on Ebay through various id's and at various shows to unsuspecting people(many times they use alias id's on Ebay that belong to their friends who assist in completing the scams for $$). That is how they can spread all over so quickly. Meanwhile, the scammers are left with an authentic Pujols sig that they can peddle later on for at least a hundred or more dollars. They get to make money on 2 ends of one card. "
That was the response you gave me after I insinuated a ghost signer. Adding that to the pictures you pulled from Ebay is proof enough that you were accusing honest dealers.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
There is no victory lap. Show me where I slammed any dealer, or else admit you are lying and making stuff up. All I stated or pointed out in this thread was cards that had fake Pujols signatures. That's it. >>
A see I was right reply is a victory lap on a message board.
You claimed to know of a scam on someone removing the sigs and replacing them. You stated in many words that it would not be possible for Pujols to not have signed all his stickers. Despite being shown that many dealers in different places were selling them, you were sticking to your scam theory...that is what this whole thread is about right? I guess you now are starting to question it now? Anyway, even when showed one had 100% feedback and was not a new seller, was not selling other NC fakes/fraud items, you did not let up. So you tell me, how is claiming several dealers selling high end cards that were worked on not slamming them....when it is wrong? If one was to believe your scam theory, due to the short time of the products release, some of all of them would have to be a part of the scam as well.
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
A QO - regardless of the rendering - is not ALWAYS dispositive to an authenticity controversy.
No matter how skilled/experienced the opinion-giver is, the opinion can change when the
item is examined inhand. Also, ANY opinion can be mistaken.
For our purposes, the QO will have to do.
.....................................
If some of the other ones come back good, we will not know what to think.
..................
My sense of it remains that at least SOME of the cards are likely "homemade."
BUT, that is largely because I am having a hard time getting my head around
the notion that TOPPS got scammed. My bias against EBAY sellers also paints
my theory.
IF TOPPS is shown to be a victim here, they better get out in front of the
problem FAST.
.................................
That the 1/1 is bad is a shock to me.
I fear that means (edit: there) is a TOPPS problem.
...............................................
Good catch STTM.
<< <i>
Here is the item going to PSA/DNA for the quick opinion service, probably not the 'worst' looking one but far from the better one's.
My personal experience with the quick opinion service was poor, paid for a bunch of cards to get it, they failed and then they showed up in psa/dna cases a while later...
I'm still saying that having Topps chime in on this would be the most valuable input (more than opinions, psa/dna, etc...). >>
if you guys cant see that the Foil Sticker in the middle is different than the other two, then you have blinders on....clearly after market job....
Secondly even if Pujols DID have ghost signers , who cares, his post 2001 autos are only worth about $50 and there will be A MILLION of them by the time he retires...they are good for kids.....the adults collect only 2001 cards....that is why i POLICE the 2001, THAT is MY territory...
thirdly, LSU, just because some poster who nobody knows says "i saw it come out of a pack like that" does not disprove STM....in fact, you qucik support of that post makes me question the posters statement even more knowing how anti STM and Pujols you are....
I know what I seen at the St. Louis show last weekend, and we have PSA/DNA failing one of the Pujols signatures that I said was a forgery. I'm done with this matter, so you all can split hairs if you want.
<< <i>
see any similarities?
Secondly even if Pujols DID have ghost signers , who cares, his post 2001 autos are only worth about $50 and there will be A MILLION of them by the time he retires...they are good for kids.....the adults collect only 2001 cards....that is why i POLICE the 2001, THAT is MY territory...
I agree the foils look completely different but some of the ones STM says are real have the foils which look different. That's the part that confused me. I dont' know crap about Pujols sigs.
Changing subjects I can't believe you would excuse Pujols for using ghost signers. That's fraud.
"...Changing subjects I can't believe you would excuse Pujols for using ghost signers. That's fraud...."
/////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
There are a number of scenarios where both AP and TOPPS
could be the victims of the fraud.
There are a number of scenarios where AP could be the lone
victim of the fraud.
I dunno.
<< <i>If this is a Topps problem, the foils being different is easily explained by Topps using dead stock stickers that AP signed some time ago. Happens pretty often really. >>
exactly, i don't think that should be the focus here...
For those of us who are VERY FAMILIAR with his auto, its not difficult to differentiate a fake Pujols auto from a real Auto...
i, like a few others on this board, consider myself an EXPERT on Pujols Auto's and rookie cards....others on this board are experts on other things (some not even cards -storm=EBAY)....
As experts in specific fields, we know more than a PSA grader, in regards to a specific auto....a PSA grader has to look at thousands of autos, versus a specialist concentrating on one......
Therefore when a Specialist comes on the boards with information, it is best to take the word of this person and not try to refute them blindly...
Collective Specialized Knowledge gives power to a board.....
Steve
<< <i>i dont think Pujols ever used a ghost signer...i said EVEN IF
For those of us who are VERY FAMILIAR with his auto, its not difficult to differentiate a fake Pujols auto from a real Auto...
i, like a few others on this board, consider myself an EXPERT on Pujols Auto's and rookie cards....others on this board are experts on other things (some not even cards -storm=EBAY)....
As experts in specific fields, we know more than a PSA grader, in regards to a specific auto....a PSA grader has to look at thousands of autos, versus a specialist concentrating on one......
Therefore when a Specialist comes on the boards with information, it is best to take the word of this person and not try to refute them blindly...
Collective Specialized Knowledge gives power to a board..... >>
Ok, now you're going overboard on the self-praise.
I will grant you have more Pujols auto knowledge than the average board member, but take it easy - PSA/DNA you're not.
I'm also surprised that you are acting a little flippantly toward the possibility that your guy is having someone else sign his stuff.
If this is true, it raises more serious concerns than if a guy from NC is peddling a handful of fakes. It has larger implications for the auto-on-card industry as a whole, IMO.
stmm deserves a lot of credit for a good catch. Maybe he doesn't have the story straight yet, but it was a dam good catch. Well done Tim.