<< <i>OK, here's a completed auction for a Triple Threads Pujols, from a seller w/ 100%, 7000+ FB from Topeka, Kansas for crying out loud. Gotta be real But if you compare it to those you posted on page one, it looks virtually identical to the one you claim to be fake, and nothing like the one you say is real. I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this one. >>
Does feedback matter if the seller may be unaware of what he is selling?
So how did the sller from Kansas acquire the card?
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"...Until anyone sees any one of these cards with a matching serial numer with two different autographs this argument is not going anywhere...."
/////////////////////////////////////////////
None of us know the origin of the cards.
Maybe they were never (edit: previously) listed on EBAY, or elsewhere.
Thus, finding a before/after picture would be tough.
........
Based on some things I personally know how to do - and have seen numerous other folks do - I can state that most stickers can be removed w/o hurting/killing the card.
Any damage to the card will be disguised with the replacement sticker, some rice paper, and a plastic spoon.
(I was raised by stamp-physicians. There is almost no hurt to a paper collectible that cannot be fixed good enough to move the item to a retail buyer.)
...................
I would remain unconvinced that there was "no connection" between any group of sellers; or, even that actual multiple sellers were needed to rapidly make the fraud widespread.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Again, it looks far more like your forgeries than your legit example. And this is a 1/1. Now you're not going to tell me that ANYONE is going to mess with a 1/1 by wiping and removing the sticker?
If my critics on here doubt me, take me up on the quick opinion challenge, so you can prove me wrong. Or maybe admit I got it right.
Like the old saying; All you can do is lead a horse to water. I guess from now on I will not share anything, and just let unsuspecting people fall victim to the scammers. Somehow, I get the sense that it would be just fine with some of you. It's pointless anymore..
<< <i>OK, here's another one from Omaha, Nebraska: Link
Again, it looks far more like your forgeries than your legit example. And this is a 1/1. Now you're not going to tell me that ANYONE is going to mess with a 1/1 by wiping and removing the sticker? >>
You have scammers wiping off the authentic signature and serial number on a $3000, 2001 Bowman Chrome Pujols autograph RC, and re-signing/numbering them. Don't think these types even bat an eye when it comes to this stuff. They have nuggets of titanium..
I still don't understand why someone would forge the auto to replace a real one. Why not just use a forged sticker for whatever Frankenstein card you're trying to make in the first place?
If you're going to fool some uneducated buyer with a Topps foil sticker on a 2005 Topps base card, you're going to fool them with a forged auto. What do you need the chopped out auto for?
It's a ridiculous scam. If that's really what's happening (and I don't believe it is) these scammers are complete idiots.
<< <i>OK, here's another one from Omaha, Nebraska: Link
Again, it looks far more like your forgeries than your legit example. And this is a 1/1. Now you're not going to tell me that ANYONE is going to mess with a 1/1 by wiping and removing the sticker? >>
You have scammers wiping off the authentic signature and serial number on a $3000, 2001 Bowman Chrome Pujols autograph RC, and re-signing/numbering them. Don't think these types even bat an eye when it comes to this stuff. They have nuggets of titanium.. >>
Thats different though,they wipe off faded autos and re-do them to increase the value of the card
<< <i>I still don't understand why someone would forge the auto to replace a real one. Why not just use a forged sticker for whatever Frankenstein card you're trying to make in the first place?
If you're going to fool some uneducated buyer with a Topps foil sticker on a 2005 Topps base card, you're going to fool them with a forged auto. What do you need the chopped out auto for?
It's a ridiculous scam. If that's really what's happening (and I don't believe it is) these scammers are complete idiots. >>
Again; You have to start thinking like one of the scammers. The backs of the TTT cards have a coa stating it's a legit Pujols sig, ect... The base card does not. By placing the legit Pujols sticker sig on a base card, it builds credibility in that being legit, since it does not have the coa on the back like the TTT cards do. It's all smoke and mirrors for a quick buck. Dump before people catch on. By the time they do, the scammers have made their money, and the cards are floating around our hobby. Then they are onto something else.
If someone thats gonna buy a topps base card with a pujols auto on it without a coa on the back they wont be able to tell the difference from a real and fake pujols auto anyway.
<< <i>OK, here's another one from Omaha, Nebraska: Link
Again, it looks far more like your forgeries than your legit example. And this is a 1/1. Now you're not going to tell me that ANYONE is going to mess with a 1/1 by wiping and removing the sticker? >>
You have scammers wiping off the authentic signature and serial number on a $3000, 2001 Bowman Chrome Pujols autograph RC, and re-signing/numbering them. Don't think these types even bat an eye when it comes to this stuff. They have nuggets of titanium.. >>
Thats different though,they wipe off faded autos and re-do them to increase the value of the card >>
It's not different in the sense that both scams are to make money. That's the whole point behind all of this. Why can't you skeptics open your eyes to the bigger picture? Many times the best scams are the ones played out right under your nose in plain sight.
<< <i>I still don't understand why someone would forge the auto to replace a real one. Why not just use a forged sticker for whatever Frankenstein card you're trying to make in the first place?
If you're going to fool some uneducated buyer with a Topps foil sticker on a 2005 Topps base card, you're going to fool them with a forged auto. What do you need the chopped out auto for?
It's a ridiculous scam. If that's really what's happening (and I don't believe it is) these scammers are complete idiots. >>
Again; You have to start thinking like one of the scammers. The backs of the TTT cards have a coa stating it's a legit Pujols sig, ect... The base card does not. By placing the legit Pujols sticker sig on a base card, it builds credibility in that being legit, since it does not have the coa on the back like the TTT cards do. It's all smoke and mirrors for a quick buck. Dump before people catch on. By the time they do, the scammers have made their money, and the cards are floating around our hobby. Then they are onto something else. >>
Wait a minute - didn't we just establish that the autos you're calling fake are, in fact, legit? And do you have a pic or link to an auction of one of these "Topps base cards" with a TTT Pujols sticker on it?
<< <i>If you really think that this is some large conspiracy theory with people making these fake pujols autographs across the country, than there is nothing else I can offer to this discussion. If you cannot seem to fathom that either the signature on the cards are real or that somehow topps screwed up, then there is no point discussing it further. There is plenty of evidence out there to these being pulled out of packs like this, but you chose to ignore that evidence and just go with some kind of idea that these are being bought and forged in large amounts and being sold at a rapid pace. Rember, all of the fakes had to have been bought, resigned and then relisted by multiple sellers in multiple states with no connection to each other in 7 days! >>
Best post of the thread. I know how they peel stickers and put them on base cards and such, but it looks like it would be very hard to remove and embedded auto sticker like that without getting a wrinkle or sticking to the edge. I mean getting a patch out of a card like that would be difficult, but getting a condition sensitive foil sticker with ink on it like that out of an embedded card without any sign of damage to the card or the sticker would be very difficult, especially when you could just wipe common auto stickers clean and keep signing until you get a passable fake. I agree the Pujols autos look bad, but I think they are coming out of packs that way. I don't think there is one guy buying, peeling, sticking, wiping, signing, sticking, reselling and reselling every single one of these coast to coast in a matter of days.
<< <i>If someone thats gonna buy a topps base card with a pujols auto on it without a coa on the back they wont be able to tell the difference from a real and fake pujols auto anyway. >>
Many buyers who can spot the difference would buy a legit Pujols sticker on a base card if the price was right, but would pass on an obvious forgery like that is on the TTT cards.
The whole point of the scam is to capture the unsuspecting buyer, by them placing their trust in the fact that the TTT has to be legit, since it has a COA on the back stating such(just like the scammers done with the 2001 Fleer Legacy Pujols forged autographs). Meanwhile, the scammers can sell off the legit signature on something like a base card as gravy money to anyone who bites. An educated collector or uneducated one. They don't care as long as they get paid.
If someone knows enough about the hobby to know the difference between fake signatures then they'll know that topps would put a COA on back of the card.
And they would know if that card series even had that card auto'd in the set
<< <i>It's not different in the sense that both scams are to make money. That's the whole point behind all of this. Why can't you skeptics open your eyes to the bigger picture? Many times the best scams are the ones played out right under your nose in plain sight. >>
That phrase could have been uttered during a Topps staff meeting not to long ago. What? A white collar criminal? Nah, it has to be a 28 year old scruffy faced kid from NC or one of his boys in NJ.
<< <i>I still don't understand why someone would forge the auto to replace a real one. Why not just use a forged sticker for whatever Frankenstein card you're trying to make in the first place?
If you're going to fool some uneducated buyer with a Topps foil sticker on a 2005 Topps base card, you're going to fool them with a forged auto. What do you need the chopped out auto for?
It's a ridiculous scam. If that's really what's happening (and I don't believe it is) these scammers are complete idiots. >>
Again; You have to start thinking like one of the scammers. The backs of the TTT cards have a coa stating it's a legit Pujols sig, ect... The base card does not. By placing the legit Pujols sticker sig on a base card, it builds credibility in that being legit, since it does not have the coa on the back like the TTT cards do. It's all smoke and mirrors for a quick buck. Dump before people catch on. By the time they do, the scammers have made their money, and the cards are floating around our hobby. Then they are onto something else. >>
Wait a minute - didn't we just establish that the autos you're calling fake are, in fact, legit? And do you have a pic or link to an auction of one of these "Topps base cards" with a TTT Pujols sticker on it? >>
I stand behind the examples I provided scans of and stated are forgeries in this thread.. There are more on Ebay, but I just placed a sample of them on here in the early stages of this thread.
Go back a page or so, and see what I explained going down at the St. Louis Sportcollectors Show last weekend. It's very plain, and I honestly don't feel like typing it out again.
Also as for the shiny, dull, clear, foil and any other type of sticker- just look at some of the Trademark moves basketball triple autos. They had cards with 3 HOFer autos #1/1 with all different stickers and ink colors.
<< <i>So far, you've publicly accused the ebay sellers:
notjustcollectible bjsnonsport stats
of being part of a Pujols auto counterfeiting ring. Yet their TTT cards look identical to several others being sold around the country.
The only evidence you provide is that their cards don't look exactly like the one you have? >>
You, sir, are mixing words. Enough of the nonsense. Do not put words in my mouth that I never stated.
All I am doing is pointing out fake TTT Pujols sticker signatures that are popping up on Ebay. I am not accusing any specific seller of having knowledge of the forgeries. People get taken everyday, and we see it on here all of the time. It happens..
They are all signed on the same style sticker with the same type of pen and they all have a virtually identical auto - one that you both would classify as forged.
In fact, I have YET to locate one single TTT auction, past or present, that DOESN'T look like your posted fakes on page 1.
In essence, what you are saying, is that every single auction I have pointed out is a fraud - that in every single case the scammer skillfully removed the original Pujols legit auto and replaced it with a forgery WITHOUT damaging the original sticker, then quickly sold them to parts unknown. Not only that, but the legit auto stickers have likely made their way onto a batch of phantom Topps base cards, none of which we've yet seen?
Isn't it far more likely that for this batch of Topps stickers, maybe Albert's arm was tired from signing all day, so the autos look a little lazy?
Edited to add I noticed you changed your initial post so as to not accuse the sellers of intentional fraud. But legit sellers will take equal issue with your implication that they are dealing in forgeries, whether intentional or unintentional. Anyone accuses me of selling forgeries better have more evidence than you've got.
"...Isn't it far more likely that for this batch of Topps stickers, Albert's arm was just tired from signing all day, so the autos look a little lazy?..."
///////////////////////////////////////
Mathematically, it is more likely, but not necessarily "far more" likely.
I don't think we can know which ones are good until an "accepted" expert - maybe the QO guy - has a looksee.
I don't know which - if any - are good/bad, but the three I posted do not look like the "real" ones I compared them to. THAT does not mean they are NOT real; only that they look wrong, to me.
.....................
Peeling/wrinkling is not usually an issue, if forged stickers are applied by pros.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
They are all signed on the same style sticker with the same type of pen and they all have a virtually identical auto - one that you both would classify as forged.
In fact, I have YET to locate one single TTT auction, past or present, that DOESN'T look like your posted fakes on page 1.
In essence, what you are saying, is that every single auction I have pointed out is a fraud - that in every single case the scammer skillfully removed the original Pujols legit auto and replaced it with a forgery WITHOUT damaging the original sticker, then quickly sold them to parts unknown. Not only that, but the legit auto stickers have likely made their way onto a batch of phantom Topps base cards, none of which we've yet seen?
Isn't it far more likely that for this batch of Topps stickers, maybe Albert's arm was tired from signing all day, so the autos look a little lazy?
Edited to add I noticed you changed your initial post so as to not accuse the sellers of intentional fraud. But legit sellers will take equal issue with your implication that they are dealing in forgeries, whether intentional or unintentional. Anyone accuses me of selling forgeries better have more evidence than you've got. >>
No, I did not. Within 5 minutes of posting my original post, I noticed the link did not work. I went back in and corrected such within 5 minutes of the oringinal post. Nothing else after that correction of the link.. Go back and look at the time stampings. Self explanatory.. Once again, there is no need twist things.
Pujols has a consistent signature. Look at all the examples I have provided in this thread. All of his authentic sigs are fairly consistent, and look nothing like the forgeries. Even as far back as his 2006 Topps sticker autos.
Again, take me up on the quick opinion challenge I tossed out there, since you think I am so wrong. I have invited you to do this a couple of times, and you have avoided the issue. Surely, you would want to prove me wrong, since some of you are so sure I don't know what I'm talking about. I know what's legit and what's fake. I have provided examples of both.
Yeah, I realize I messed up the link for the authentic one in WA, but I won't dare edit that post to fix that link. I wouldn't want someone to suggest I changed my words, so I just made this follow up.
CLIFF NOTES FOR THIS THREAD --------------------------------------- ---------------------------------------
1. Pujols Autos are the most valuable modern autos....
2. Scammers take an unsigned card (base card) place a real pujols sticker auto on it from triple threads....the real looking auto looks great!
3. Place an unsigned sticker (either backdoored like other valuable pujols products yet not necessarily from the same seller -unsigned 2001 Pujols fleer legacy and unnumbered 2001 Donruss Elite Status cards or peel off a no name auto, erase and reapply?) back on the triple threads and fake sign it (it will look more real since its next to 2 legit signatures)
4. Sticker autos need to be redesigned so they dont wipe off or peel off evenly....they need to rip apart if they are peeled (that technology exists)
5. Amazing how the same people try to dissprove this and argue with STM ALL THE TIME....stop derailing valuable threads please....................you know who you are!!
PS..TRIVIA : how many world series strikeouts does Pujols Have?
My Final post on this thread... I was just looking at the topps Triple thread autographs in my store and it would definatly be impossible to remove the sticker without damaging the card. The autograph sticker is completly built into the card. All other sticker replacments that have ever been done involved removing a sticker that was on top of the card. For someone to revmoe the sticker and replace it with a new one would be impossible without damaging the window that surrounds it or without damaging the sticker....
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Couldn't Topps simply solve this problem by using the types of stickers that destroy themselves if removed? Yes, they exist - they fall apart as they are being peeled off. It's ridiculous that Topps hasn't thought of this already. You should NOT be able to peel off one of these stickers without destroying either the sticker or the card.
Looking for 1998 & 1998/99 Vince Carter in every variation
With all this information (or dis-information) I can't imagine why anybody would pay huge dollars for these modern autographed cards. Nothing negative about Pujols so don't get excited Pujols boys. Would be the same for any big dollar card. It makes no sense to me. How can anybody be 100% sure who signed the item unless YOU saw him sign it!? I just think it's all a big waste of money.
If you're going to accuse legit ebayers of selling forgeries, I think you at least owe them
1) An example of where these original Pujols auto stickers are ending up. Show us a "Topps base card" or any other instance out there when the forger stuck it on a fake card. After all, the forger would only alter these cards if he can actually make money on another - so where are they making this money? Any auctions you can direct us to, past or current?
2) An explanation of why you (as the expert) know for certain that these sellers' autos are fake. Is it the "J" or the "P" or the "S" or what? I've seen many certified Pujols autos over the past 24 hours and there is no consistency in how he signs - the slant, the width of the letters, the size of the "J", the way the "S" finishes, all vary greatly. Please be specific.
3) I'd also ask that you address Tedh's contention that on his TTT, the sticker is embedded in the card and cannot be removed. Tell us how they do it. These cards sell for $200 unaltered, or even more in the case of that 1/1. So how do they do it without hurting the sticker or card?
I no problem whatsoever with you and others trying to locate forgeries. The Legacy autos like this were obvious fakes. Sellers like Burge should be taken down. But I think you need more evidence here than simply "it doesn't look right to me" before you start accusing sellers.
Is it possible Topps is to blame? Maybe he signed 10,000 stickers in 2003, but Topps only used 8,000 of them, the other 2,000 they stuck in the vault and use them whenever they are running short?
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<< <i>Is it possible Topps is to blame? Maybe he signed 10,000 stickers in 2003, but Topps only used 8,000 of them, the other 2,000 they stuck in the vault and use them whenever they are running short? >>
I find it interesting that those that are bashing Stan are unwilling to take him up on his offer to prove him wrong. From what I've read Stan is the only one that has offered any actual proof of his claims (fake autos). He has clearly stated and included pictures of cards he claims have fake autos on them. Instead of accepting his challenge folks are challenging his assessment of how the fake autos got there in the first place. You can challenge how those fake autos got there but things like "I know the guy that pulled that card" and "Taking the sticker off is impossible because it is embedded" are nonsensical arguments on a message board. If Stan is correct about the autos then you would have to give his opinion on how they are getting there more credence.
Is the accusation plausible? Yes. Is it correct? I have no idea.
Hammered, pay for the PSA/DNA opinion. If Stan is wrong he said he will pay. Tedh hasn't offered any proof what so ever that the embedded sticker cannot be removed. He has merely stated an opinion. In fact Tedh has made plenty of statements that we can merely take his word for.
For all the doubters out there why don't you step up to the plate and show that the autos Stan has said are fake in this thread are in fact legit? Make sure to choose one that he actually said in this thread is fake. If they are legit then Stan's entire argument goes down the tubes. Seems like the logical way to settle the current debate.
<< <i>Is it possible Topps is to blame? Maybe he signed 10,000 stickers in 2003, but Topps only used 8,000 of them, the other 2,000 they stuck in the vault and use them whenever they are running short? >>
This seems like the most plausible account to what's going on...
Just wondering if Topps could somehow be held responsible for the fakes if they have knowingly allowed cards to be produced that allow for autos to be redone, removed, erased, or reapplied on other cards.
this is probably way off point but, a few years ago i had bought a pack of cards bskbll, and it had a mail in card to get an auto card, it took them 8 months to send it, i inquired about 3 months in about it they actually offered me someone elses card, i held out, cant even rember who it was right now , but is it possible that topps needed his auto and he wasnt available when the cards went to pack and had someone else sign them, it sound crazy but is it possible, it would be a forgery yes but whos at fault?,,bj
OK I just sent a quick opinion request on one of the alleged fake TTTs
Fergie - I believe you have it backwards.
Instead of asking others to provide evidence of legitimacy of the autos, it is Stan that should be required to provide evidence of forgery. It is he, after all, who is making accusations of fraud. The one doing the accusing should be the one to provide evidence. All he has provided thus far is his opinion. Do you equate his opinion with proof?
In the above post, I asked for evidence of fraud in the form of the new "Topps base cards" that he claims exist. I have also asked him to provide specifics of the TTT autos and why they are fake.
You claim Ted only offers an "opinion" that the stickers cannot be removed. OK, since Stan is making claims here, where is his evidence that the stickers CAN be removed, or that they HAVE actually been removed. Where is his proof of the fraud? Why aren't you holding Stan to the same standard of proof?
Here is my opinion on the consistency of signatures.
Within a reasonable time period, for the same person, the consistency of a person's autograph is directly proportional to his importance. So, let's say Albert Pujols was asked to sign the cards in a certain time period (let's say one week). Mr. Pujols knows that his signature is important, so he is more likely to have a consistent signature. He will take breaks along the way when his arm gets tired in order to maintain a more consistent signature.
Whereas if I were to sign the same number of items in the same time period, my signature would vary greatly, because honestly, my signature isn't that important.
<< <i>OK I just sent a quick opinion request on one of the alleged fake TTTs
Fergie - I believe you have it backwards. Instead of asking others to provide evidence of legitimacy of the autos, it is Stan that should be required to provide evidence of forgery. It is he, after all, who is making accusations of fraud. The one doing the accusing should be the one to provide evidence. All he has provided thus far is his opinion. Do you equate his opinion with proof?
In the above post, I asked for evidence of fraud in the form of the new "Topps base cards" that he claims exist. I have also asked him to provide specifics of the TTT autos and why they are fake. >>
I agree with hammered. We have not been shown any evidence by Stan, who appears to be accusing 100s of dealers in a mass plot of deception. When you accuse someone or in this case, 100s of people of something...it is you who need to show evidence.
I would also like to see one of these Topps base cards, which according to Stan are being traded everywhere as well. If they are being traded everywhere......why can't someone show us at least one example?
Rather then a mass conspiracy, I think any logical person would have to agree they came from Topps that way. If they are real or not.....I can't say, but Stan has not proved one thing he has said...which defies logic.
Clear Skies, Mark
Collecting PSA graded Steve Young, Marcus Allen, Bret Saberhagen and 1980s Topps Cards. Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
<< <i>OK I just sent a quick opinion request on one of the alleged fake TTTs
Fergie - I believe you have it backwards. Instead of asking others to provide evidence of legitimacy of the autos, it is Stan that should be required to provide evidence of forgery. It is he, after all, who is making accusations of fraud. The one doing the accusing should be the one to provide evidence. All he has provided thus far is his opinion. Do you equate his opinion with proof?
In the above post, I asked for evidence of fraud in the form of the new "Topps base cards" that he claims exist. I have also asked him to provide specifics of the TTT autos and why they are fake. >>
I agree with hammered. We have not been shown any evidence by Stan, who appears to be accusing 100s of dealers in a mass plot of deception. When you accuse someone or in this case, 100s of people of something...it is you who need to show evidence.
I would also like to see one of these Topps base cards, which according to Stan are being traded everywhere as well. If they are being traded everywhere......why can't someone show us at least one example?
Rather then a mass conspiracy, I think any logical person would have to agree they came from Topps that way. If they are real or not.....I can't say, but Stan has not proved one thing he has said...which defies logic.
Clear Skies, Mark >>
He's Stantheman, he does not have to prove anything... his word is golden remember. Now please thank him for all the good things he has done.
Comments
<< <i>OK, here's a completed auction for a Triple Threads Pujols, from a seller w/ 100%, 7000+ FB from Topeka, Kansas for crying out loud.
Gotta be real
But if you compare it to those you posted on page one, it looks virtually identical to the one you claim to be fake, and nothing like the one you say is real.
I think you're barking up the wrong tree with this one. >>
Does feedback matter if the seller may be unaware of what he is selling?
Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
/////////////////////////////////////////////
None of us know the origin of the cards.
Maybe they were never (edit: previously) listed on EBAY, or elsewhere.
Thus, finding a before/after picture would be tough.
........
Based on some things I personally know how to do - and have
seen numerous other folks do - I can state that most stickers can
be removed w/o hurting/killing the card.
Any damage to the card will be disguised with the replacement
sticker, some rice paper, and a plastic spoon.
(I was raised by stamp-physicians. There is almost no hurt to a
paper collectible that cannot be fixed good enough to move the
item to a retail buyer.)
...................
I would remain unconvinced that there was "no connection" between
any group of sellers; or, even that actual multiple sellers were
needed to rapidly make the fraud widespread.
Again, it looks far more like your forgeries than your legit example. And this is a 1/1. Now you're not going to tell me that ANYONE is going to mess with a 1/1 by wiping and removing the sticker?
Like the old saying; All you can do is lead a horse to water. I guess from now on I will not share anything, and just let unsuspecting people fall victim to the scammers. Somehow, I get the sense that it would be just fine with some of you. It's pointless anymore..
<< <i>OK, here's another one from Omaha, Nebraska: Link
Again, it looks far more like your forgeries than your legit example. And this is a 1/1. Now you're not going to tell me that ANYONE is going to mess with a 1/1 by wiping and removing the sticker? >>
You have scammers wiping off the authentic signature and serial number on a $3000, 2001 Bowman Chrome Pujols autograph RC, and re-signing/numbering them. Don't think these types even bat an eye when it comes to this stuff. They have nuggets of titanium..
Why not just use a forged sticker for whatever Frankenstein card you're trying to make in the first place?
If you're going to fool some uneducated buyer with a Topps foil sticker on a 2005 Topps base card, you're going to fool them with a forged auto. What do you need the chopped out auto for?
It's a ridiculous scam. If that's really what's happening (and I don't believe it is) these scammers are complete idiots.
Again, looks just like your posted fakes. There are others. Not trying to beat a dead horse here.
<< <i>
<< <i>OK, here's another one from Omaha, Nebraska: Link
Again, it looks far more like your forgeries than your legit example. And this is a 1/1. Now you're not going to tell me that ANYONE is going to mess with a 1/1 by wiping and removing the sticker? >>
You have scammers wiping off the authentic signature and serial number on a $3000, 2001 Bowman Chrome Pujols autograph RC, and re-signing/numbering them. Don't think these types even bat an eye when it comes to this stuff. They have nuggets of titanium.. >>
Thats different though,they wipe off faded autos and re-do them to increase the value of the card
<< <i>I still don't understand why someone would forge the auto to replace a real one.
Why not just use a forged sticker for whatever Frankenstein card you're trying to make in the first place?
If you're going to fool some uneducated buyer with a Topps foil sticker on a 2005 Topps base card, you're going to fool them with a forged auto. What do you need the chopped out auto for?
It's a ridiculous scam. If that's really what's happening (and I don't believe it is) these scammers are complete idiots. >>
Again; You have to start thinking like one of the scammers. The backs of the TTT cards have a coa stating it's a legit Pujols sig, ect... The base card does not. By placing the legit Pujols sticker sig on a base card, it builds credibility in that being legit, since it does not have the coa on the back like the TTT cards do. It's all smoke and mirrors for a quick buck. Dump before people catch on. By the time they do, the scammers have made their money, and the cards are floating around our hobby. Then they are onto something else.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>OK, here's another one from Omaha, Nebraska: Link
Again, it looks far more like your forgeries than your legit example. And this is a 1/1. Now you're not going to tell me that ANYONE is going to mess with a 1/1 by wiping and removing the sticker? >>
You have scammers wiping off the authentic signature and serial number on a $3000, 2001 Bowman Chrome Pujols autograph RC, and re-signing/numbering them. Don't think these types even bat an eye when it comes to this stuff. They have nuggets of titanium.. >>
Thats different though,they wipe off faded autos and re-do them to increase the value of the card >>
It's not different in the sense that both scams are to make money. That's the whole point behind all of this. Why can't you skeptics open your eyes to the bigger picture? Many times the best scams are the ones played out right under your nose in plain sight.
<< <i>
<< <i>I still don't understand why someone would forge the auto to replace a real one.
Why not just use a forged sticker for whatever Frankenstein card you're trying to make in the first place?
If you're going to fool some uneducated buyer with a Topps foil sticker on a 2005 Topps base card, you're going to fool them with a forged auto. What do you need the chopped out auto for?
It's a ridiculous scam. If that's really what's happening (and I don't believe it is) these scammers are complete idiots. >>
Again; You have to start thinking like one of the scammers. The backs of the TTT cards have a coa stating it's a legit Pujols sig, ect... The base card does not. By placing the legit Pujols sticker sig on a base card, it builds credibility in that being legit, since it does not have the coa on the back like the TTT cards do. It's all smoke and mirrors for a quick buck. Dump before people catch on. By the time they do, the scammers have made their money, and the cards are floating around our hobby. Then they are onto something else. >>
Wait a minute - didn't we just establish that the autos you're calling fake are, in fact, legit?
And do you have a pic or link to an auction of one of these "Topps base cards" with a TTT Pujols sticker on it?
<< <i>If you really think that this is some large conspiracy theory with people making these fake pujols autographs across the country, than there is nothing else I can offer to this discussion. If you cannot seem to fathom that either the signature on the cards are real or that somehow topps screwed up, then there is no point discussing it further. There is plenty of evidence out there to these being pulled out of packs like this, but you chose to ignore that evidence and just go with some kind of idea that these are being bought and forged in large amounts and being sold at a rapid pace. Rember, all of the fakes had to have been bought, resigned and then relisted by multiple sellers in multiple states with no connection to each other in 7 days! >>
Best post of the thread. I know how they peel stickers and put them on base cards and such, but it looks like it would be very hard to remove and embedded auto sticker like that without getting a wrinkle or sticking to the edge. I mean getting a patch out of a card like that would be difficult, but getting a condition sensitive foil sticker with ink on it like that out of an embedded card without any sign of damage to the card or the sticker would be very difficult, especially when you could just wipe common auto stickers clean and keep signing until you get a passable fake. I agree the Pujols autos look bad, but I think they are coming out of packs that way. I don't think there is one guy buying, peeling, sticking, wiping, signing, sticking, reselling and reselling every single one of these coast to coast in a matter of days.
<< <i>If someone thats gonna buy a topps base card with a pujols auto on it without a coa on the back they wont be able to tell the difference from a real and fake pujols auto anyway. >>
Many buyers who can spot the difference would buy a legit Pujols sticker on a base card if the price was right, but would pass on an obvious forgery like that is on the TTT cards.
The whole point of the scam is to capture the unsuspecting buyer, by them placing their trust in the fact that the TTT has to be legit, since it has a COA on the back stating such(just like the scammers done with the 2001 Fleer Legacy Pujols forged autographs). Meanwhile, the scammers can sell off the legit signature on something like a base card as gravy money to anyone who bites. An educated collector or uneducated one. They don't care as long as they get paid.
notjustcollectible
bjsnonsport
stats
of being part of a Pujols auto counterfeiting ring.
Yet their TTT cards look identical to several others being sold around the country.
The only evidence you provide is that their cards don't look exactly like the one you have?
And they would know if that card series even had that card auto'd in the set
<< <i>It's not different in the sense that both scams are to make money. That's the whole point behind all of this. Why can't you skeptics open your eyes to the bigger picture? Many times the best scams are the ones played out right under your nose in plain sight. >>
That phrase could have been uttered during a Topps staff meeting not to long ago. What? A white collar criminal? Nah, it has to be a 28 year old scruffy faced kid from NC or one of his boys in NJ.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I still don't understand why someone would forge the auto to replace a real one.
Why not just use a forged sticker for whatever Frankenstein card you're trying to make in the first place?
If you're going to fool some uneducated buyer with a Topps foil sticker on a 2005 Topps base card, you're going to fool them with a forged auto. What do you need the chopped out auto for?
It's a ridiculous scam. If that's really what's happening (and I don't believe it is) these scammers are complete idiots. >>
Again; You have to start thinking like one of the scammers. The backs of the TTT cards have a coa stating it's a legit Pujols sig, ect... The base card does not. By placing the legit Pujols sticker sig on a base card, it builds credibility in that being legit, since it does not have the coa on the back like the TTT cards do. It's all smoke and mirrors for a quick buck. Dump before people catch on. By the time they do, the scammers have made their money, and the cards are floating around our hobby. Then they are onto something else. >>
Wait a minute - didn't we just establish that the autos you're calling fake are, in fact, legit?
And do you have a pic or link to an auction of one of these "Topps base cards" with a TTT Pujols sticker on it? >>
I stand behind the examples I provided scans of and stated are forgeries in this thread.. There are more on Ebay, but I just placed a sample of them on here in the early stages of this thread.
Go back a page or so, and see what I explained going down at the St. Louis Sportcollectors Show last weekend. It's very plain, and I honestly don't feel like typing it out again.
Are the AP sigs correct?
<< <i>So far, you've publicly accused the ebay sellers:
notjustcollectible
bjsnonsport
stats
of being part of a Pujols auto counterfeiting ring.
Yet their TTT cards look identical to several others being sold around the country.
The only evidence you provide is that their cards don't look exactly like the one you have? >>
You, sir, are mixing words. Enough of the nonsense. Do not put words in my mouth that I never stated.
All I am doing is pointing out fake TTT Pujols sticker signatures that are popping up on Ebay. I am not accusing any specific seller of having knowledge of the forgeries. People get taken everyday, and we see it on here all of the time. It happens..
<< <i>These are the NE, KS and OH cards.
Are the AP sigs correct?
No they are not.
///////////////////////////////////
Not being an expert on the sig, all I can say is that they are different
than the ones I know are good.
<< <i>"...No they are not. ..."
///////////////////////////////////
Not being an expert on the sig, all I can say is that they are different
than the ones I know are good. >>
No doubt about it.
Same style sticker, same style pen, virtually same auto as the "fakes".
Here's another one from Washington State: WA
They are all signed on the same style sticker with the same type of pen and they all have a virtually identical auto - one that you both would classify as forged.
In fact, I have YET to locate one single TTT auction, past or present, that DOESN'T look like your posted fakes on page 1.
In essence, what you are saying, is that every single auction I have pointed out is a fraud - that in every single case the scammer skillfully removed the original Pujols legit auto and replaced it with a forgery WITHOUT damaging the original sticker, then quickly sold them to parts unknown. Not only that, but the legit auto stickers have likely made their way onto a batch of phantom Topps base cards, none of which we've yet seen?
Isn't it far more likely that for this batch of Topps stickers, maybe Albert's arm was tired from signing all day, so the autos look a little lazy?
Edited to add I noticed you changed your initial post so as to not accuse the sellers of intentional fraud. But legit sellers will take equal issue with your implication that they are dealing in forgeries, whether intentional or unintentional. Anyone accuses me of selling forgeries better have more evidence than you've got.
///////////////////////////////////////
Mathematically, it is more likely, but not necessarily "far more" likely.
I don't think we can know which ones are good until an "accepted"
expert - maybe the QO guy - has a looksee.
I don't know which - if any - are good/bad, but the three I posted
do not look like the "real" ones I compared them to. THAT does not
mean they are NOT real; only that they look wrong, to me.
.....................
Peeling/wrinkling is not usually an issue, if forged stickers are
applied by pros.
<< <i>Here's another one from PA: Pennsylvania this time
Same style sticker, same style pen, virtually same auto as the "fakes".
Here's another one from Washington State: WA
They are all signed on the same style sticker with the same type of pen and they all have a virtually identical auto - one that you both would classify as forged.
In fact, I have YET to locate one single TTT auction, past or present, that DOESN'T look like your posted fakes on page 1.
In essence, what you are saying, is that every single auction I have pointed out is a fraud - that in every single case the scammer skillfully removed the original Pujols legit auto and replaced it with a forgery WITHOUT damaging the original sticker, then quickly sold them to parts unknown. Not only that, but the legit auto stickers have likely made their way onto a batch of phantom Topps base cards, none of which we've yet seen?
Isn't it far more likely that for this batch of Topps stickers, maybe Albert's arm was tired from signing all day, so the autos look a little lazy?
Edited to add I noticed you changed your initial post so as to not accuse the sellers of intentional fraud. But legit sellers will take equal issue with your implication that they are dealing in forgeries, whether intentional or unintentional. Anyone accuses me of selling forgeries better have more evidence than you've got. >>
No, I did not. Within 5 minutes of posting my original post, I noticed the link did not work. I went back in and corrected such within 5 minutes of the oringinal post. Nothing else after that correction of the link.. Go back and look at the time stampings. Self explanatory.. Once again, there is no need twist things.
Pujols has a consistent signature. Look at all the examples I have provided in this thread. All of his authentic sigs are fairly consistent, and look nothing like the forgeries. Even as far back as his 2006 Topps sticker autos.
Again, take me up on the quick opinion challenge I tossed out there, since you think I am so wrong. I have invited you to do this a couple of times, and you have avoided the issue. Surely, you would want to prove me wrong, since some of you are so sure I don't know what I'm talking about. I know what's legit and what's fake. I have provided examples of both.
Yes, this one is legit:
[L=WA]http://cgi.ebay.com/RYAN-HOWARD-ALBERT-PUJOLS-CABRERA-Triple-Threads-3-AUTO_W0QQitemZ380171811896QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUS_Baseball?hash=item5884017c38#ht_500wt_1182[/L
Authentic
---------------------------------------
---------------------------------------
1. Pujols Autos are the most valuable modern autos....
2. Scammers take an unsigned card (base card) place a real pujols sticker auto on it from triple threads....the real looking auto looks great!
3. Place an unsigned sticker (either backdoored like other valuable pujols products yet not necessarily from the same seller -unsigned 2001 Pujols fleer legacy and unnumbered 2001 Donruss Elite Status cards or peel off a no name auto, erase and reapply?) back on the triple threads and fake sign it (it will look more real since its next to 2 legit signatures)
4. Sticker autos need to be redesigned so they dont wipe off or peel off evenly....they need to rip apart if they are peeled (that technology exists)
5. Amazing how the same people try to dissprove this and argue with STM ALL THE TIME....stop derailing valuable threads please....................you know who you are!!
PS..TRIVIA : how many world series strikeouts does Pujols Have?
<< <i>CLIFF NOTES FOR THIS THREAD >>
STM is a complete idiot.
Some of the "dull" Albert stickers are authentic on ttt?
Specializing in Certified Autograph Cards, Rookies, Rare Inserts and other quality modern cards! Over 8000 Cards in stock now! Come visit our physical store located at 1210 Main St. Belmar ,NJ
<< <i>My Final post on this thread.... >>
Promise?
Looking for 1998 & 1998/99 Vince Carter in every variation
If you're going to accuse legit ebayers of selling forgeries, I think you at least owe them
1) An example of where these original Pujols auto stickers are ending up. Show us a "Topps base card" or any other instance out there when the forger stuck it on a fake card.
After all, the forger would only alter these cards if he can actually make money on another - so where are they making this money? Any auctions you can direct us to, past or current?
2) An explanation of why you (as the expert) know for certain that these sellers' autos are fake. Is it the "J" or the "P" or the "S" or what?
I've seen many certified Pujols autos over the past 24 hours and there is no consistency in how he signs - the slant, the width of the letters, the size of the "J", the way the "S" finishes, all vary greatly. Please be specific.
3) I'd also ask that you address Tedh's contention that on his TTT, the sticker is embedded in the card and cannot be removed.
Tell us how they do it. These cards sell for $200 unaltered, or even more in the case of that 1/1. So how do they do it without hurting the sticker or card?
I no problem whatsoever with you and others trying to locate forgeries. The Legacy autos like this were obvious fakes. Sellers like Burge should be taken down. But I think you need more evidence here than simply "it doesn't look right to me" before you start accusing sellers.
My daughter was diagnosed with type 1 diabetes at the age of 2 (2003). My son was diagnosed with Type 1 when he was 17 on December 31, 2009. We were stunned that another child of ours had been diagnosed. Please, if you don't have a favorite charity, consider giving to the JDRF (Juvenile Diabetes Research Foundation)
JDRF Donation
<< <i>Is it possible Topps is to blame? Maybe he signed 10,000 stickers in 2003, but Topps only used 8,000 of them, the other 2,000 they stuck in the vault and use them whenever they are running short? >>
winner!!!
Is the accusation plausible? Yes. Is it correct? I have no idea.
Hammered, pay for the PSA/DNA opinion. If Stan is wrong he said he will pay. Tedh hasn't offered any proof what so ever that the embedded sticker cannot be removed. He has merely stated an opinion. In fact Tedh has made plenty of statements that we can merely take his word for.
For all the doubters out there why don't you step up to the plate and show that the autos Stan has said are fake in this thread are in fact legit? Make sure to choose one that he actually said in this thread is fake. If they are legit then Stan's entire argument goes down the tubes. Seems like the logical way to settle the current debate.
Robb
<< <i>Is it possible Topps is to blame? Maybe he signed 10,000 stickers in 2003, but Topps only used 8,000 of them, the other 2,000 they stuck in the vault and use them whenever they are running short? >>
This seems like the most plausible account to what's going on...
Just wondering if Topps could somehow be held responsible for the fakes if they have knowingly allowed cards to be produced that allow for autos to be redone, removed, erased, or reapplied on other cards.
Fergie - I believe you have it backwards.
Instead of asking others to provide evidence of legitimacy of the autos, it is Stan that should be required to provide evidence of forgery. It is he, after all, who is making accusations of fraud. The one doing the accusing should be the one to provide evidence. All he has provided thus far is his opinion. Do you equate his opinion with proof?
In the above post, I asked for evidence of fraud in the form of the new "Topps base cards" that he claims exist. I have also asked him to provide specifics of the TTT autos and why they are fake.
You claim Ted only offers an "opinion" that the stickers cannot be removed. OK, since Stan is making claims here, where is his evidence that the stickers CAN be removed, or that they HAVE actually been removed. Where is his proof of the fraud? Why aren't you holding Stan to the same standard of proof?
Within a reasonable time period, for the same person, the consistency of a person's autograph is directly proportional to his importance. So, let's say Albert Pujols was asked to sign the cards in a certain time period (let's say one week). Mr. Pujols knows that his signature is important, so he is more likely to have a consistent signature. He will take breaks along the way when his arm gets tired in order to maintain a more consistent signature.
Whereas if I were to sign the same number of items in the same time period, my signature would vary greatly, because honestly, my signature isn't that important.
<< <i>OK I just sent a quick opinion request on one of the alleged fake TTTs
Fergie - I believe you have it backwards. Instead of asking others to provide evidence of legitimacy of the autos, it is Stan that should be required to provide evidence of forgery. It is he, after all, who is making accusations of fraud. The one doing the accusing should be the one to provide evidence. All he has provided thus far is his opinion. Do you equate his opinion with proof?
In the above post, I asked for evidence of fraud in the form of the new "Topps base cards" that he claims exist. I have also asked him to provide specifics of the TTT autos and why they are fake. >>
I agree with hammered. We have not been shown any evidence by Stan, who appears to be accusing 100s of dealers in a mass plot of deception. When you accuse someone or in this case, 100s of people of something...it is you who need to show evidence.
I would also like to see one of these Topps base cards, which according to Stan are being traded everywhere as well. If they are being traded everywhere......why can't someone show us at least one example?
Rather then a mass conspiracy, I think any logical person would have to agree they came from Topps that way. If they are real or not.....I can't say, but Stan has not proved one thing he has said...which defies logic.
Clear Skies,
Mark
Raw: Tony Gonzalez (low #'d cards, and especially 1/1's) and Steve Young.
good thread ..thanks for an interesting read
<< <i>
<< <i>OK I just sent a quick opinion request on one of the alleged fake TTTs
Fergie - I believe you have it backwards. Instead of asking others to provide evidence of legitimacy of the autos, it is Stan that should be required to provide evidence of forgery. It is he, after all, who is making accusations of fraud. The one doing the accusing should be the one to provide evidence. All he has provided thus far is his opinion. Do you equate his opinion with proof?
In the above post, I asked for evidence of fraud in the form of the new "Topps base cards" that he claims exist. I have also asked him to provide specifics of the TTT autos and why they are fake. >>
I agree with hammered. We have not been shown any evidence by Stan, who appears to be accusing 100s of dealers in a mass plot of deception. When you accuse someone or in this case, 100s of people of something...it is you who need to show evidence.
I would also like to see one of these Topps base cards, which according to Stan are being traded everywhere as well. If they are being traded everywhere......why can't someone show us at least one example?
Rather then a mass conspiracy, I think any logical person would have to agree they came from Topps that way. If they are real or not.....I can't say, but Stan has not proved one thing he has said...which defies logic.
Clear Skies,
Mark >>
He's Stantheman, he does not have to prove anything... his word is golden remember. Now please thank him for all the good things he has done.