Keets and his merry little band of men in tights here to defend him.
I see that you've edited all your comments in the original 01-S thread. Nice!!
One of these day I'll TTT that thread and add a few more comments. Maybe I'll get to see your reply??
Here's an ethical question for you.
Someone has already asked this question but I didn't see your reply. If the original owner of the 01-S came back in the shop would you tell him about his coin and would you share the profit with him?
Someone has already asked this question but I didn't see your reply. If the original owner of the 01-S came back in the shop would you tell him about his coin and would you share the profit with him?
I won't presume to speak for Al... but since he works for the shop in question and is not the owner, I would think that the decision over any sharing of profit is not his call.
<< <i>Someone has already asked this question but I didn't see your reply. If the original owner of the 01-S came back in the shop would you tell him about his coin and would you share the profit with him?
I won't presume to speak for Al... but since he works for the shop in question and is not the owner, I would think that the decision over any sharing of profit is not his call. >>
<< <i>Someone has already asked this question but I didn't see your reply. If the original owner of the 01-S came back in the shop would you tell him about his coin and would you share the profit with him?
I won't presume to speak for Al... but since he works for the shop in question and is not the owner, I would think that the decision over any sharing of profit is not his call. >>
Some people find this hard to comprehend. They prefer to push their own version of ethics into the picture.
Why would one continue to ask a question of someone who is in no position to be able to make that decision? He's not the boss, he's just the guy who bought the deal. If my employee started cutting any money deals with customers without my approval, no matter what the circumstances were, he likely wouldn't stay my employee for long. That's not his decision to make.
Seems to me you won't be happy until you get the answer you want, which is "No, I won't say anything", after which you'll no doubt gleefully start a round of I-told-you-so, all-dealers-are-crooks backslapping. So why not just cut to the chase now and be done with it?
Ahh....it must be nice to have the business world all figured out. And standing on that morally superior high ground must certainly afford one a spectacular view of the rest of us mere mortals. Do tell us what it's like sometime.
Your statement that keets is an employee and therefore is in no position to make the decision whether to offer the older customer any extra money is correct. However, the question can be recast in two ways, both of which are interesting:
1) Keets, if it was your store and what you outlined had occurred, would you be willing to offer the older customer any extra money if he came back?
2) Keets, because it is not your store, do you think the current owner would be willing to offer the older customer any extra money if he came back?
I think answers to these questions would shed light on keets' ethics and the perceived ethics of his employer. And, as I've said before, I recognize that different posters have different takes on keets' ethics and I am fine with that point.
One last point to telephoto1: I do not engage in dealer-bashing. I very much like knowledgeable and ethical dealers. I know that in the past I've learned a lot of valuable information from such dealers and I hope to continue learning in the future.
Mark
P.S.: ksteelheader, since I know you'll be reading this post, please let me know of any spelling errors. If you want, you can also mention any grammatical errors you find.
Your statement that keets is an employee and therefore is in no position to make the decision whether to offer the older customer any extra money is correct. However, the question can be recast in two ways, both of which are interesting:
1) Keets, if it was your store and what you outlined had occurred, would you be willing to offer the older customer any extra money if he came back?
2) Keets, because it is not your store, do you think the current owner would be willing to offer the older customer any extra money if he came back?
I think answers to these questions would shed light on keets' ethics and the perceived ethics of his employer. And, as I've said before, I recognize that different posters have different takes on keets' ethics and I am fine with that point.
One last point to telephoto1: I do not engage in dealer-bashing. I very much like knowledgeable and ethical dealers. I know that in the past I've learned a lot of valuable information from such dealers and I hope to continue learning in the future.
Mark >>
OK, for starters, question 1 is a hypothetical thus it is moot... and question 2 is pointless regardless of Keets' answer. His boss isn't the one getting raked over the coals here. I guess I am trying to understand this desperate need to have some question answered when it's fairly obvious to even the casual observer that the people asking it only want to hear one specific answer.
If you want to recast the question, why not just be honest about it...
" Keets, would you please tell us all that neither you, your boss, nor any other coin dealer would give the old fart a dime extra? Because that's what we want to hear."
Actually your suggested response is what I would prefer to not hear. As I believe I've made clear, I think ethics require that the older customer share in the windfall. Given my view, I'd much rather hear from keets that both he and the owner would compensate the older customer, if given the chance, because that is in accord with what I think is right. But so far keets hasn't responded. I presume that is because he is hard at work...hopefully given this day's customers a fair shake for their money.
ksteelheader: You are falling behind. I have at least three posts that you haven't spell checked.
If the man who brought in the coins and sold them can not be found or located, even after much effort [which is not unexpected if the person left no name or phone number and is not regularly seen in the community], should the owner of the coin shop keep the 1901S quarter and not sell it, hoping one day that the man will reappear? Or should, after some reasonable amount of time and effort trying to locate the man, should the owner of the coin shop sell the coin and take a portion of the sales proceeds [10%, 50%, 70%?] and deposit same with the county or state for it to hold under the state's unclaimed property law [with the ultimate destination of the money being that it gets paid to the government]?
How far would you go in trying to locate the man and failing that, would you turn a portion of the sales proceeds of the coin over to the government for it to hold for a man whose identity is not known?
If such actions were taken to find the man and met with no success, then an effort would have been made. Probably not needed to take it further if the guy couldn't be found.
OTOH, as has been pointed out, it seems mighty unusual to have a coin shop make any size purchases whatsoever, without also asking for and requiring proper I.D. Maybe that's just how it is in Illinois.
the store owner could post an ad on craigslist looking for the person or perhaps put a ad in the newspaper. Most likely the person reads the paper and might see it.
I thought identification was needed when stores buy things from the public to protect themselves from stolen goods, etc.
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
You ask good questions. I think that it would be entirely unreasonable to expect the store owner to undergo inordinate effort and expense to find the customer. But I would expect that some effort should be expended. Stories about expensive rare coins always seem popular, so depending on the size of the town in which the shop is located, a newspaper or TV station might be interested in the story of a coin dealer attempting to locate a customer in order to compensate the customer for a rare coin. This sort of effort might prove quite fruitful for the dealer because the story can be spun to present the dealer in a very good light: Honest Dealer Wants to Give Customer Thousands of Dollars. Such publicity might attract new customers to the store (and perhaps give the dealer more candidates to rip??? ).
I definitely would not expect the dealer to deposit any of the proceeds with the unclaimed property division of the state. I think the odds of the customer ever collecting from this arena are somewhat less than 0.000000001% so the dealer is effectively giving the funds to the government. If the dealer has made an honest effort to find the customer and simply cannot do so, then the dealer should be entitled to keep the funds.
Of course, all this is my opinion (and my spelling). Others are certainly free to disagree with my opinion (and with my spelling). In fact, given your profession SanctionII, I'd be very interested in your opinion about the questions you posed. (and I'm also interested in ksteelheader's comments about my spelling)
"We owe some old guy thousands of dollars. We are looking for him. If you think you might be him, come on down."
What sort of attention do you think that will attract?
I'm not certain you could phrase it in a manner that would not cause hundreds of greedy cranks to show up. Run across the wrong litigious greedy crank and things are not fun anymore.
well the CL ad could have the description of the person and ask that he come to the coin store as they have something for him. If a few hundred people came, the coin store owner and Keets should be able to remember what the person looked like.
Successful Buying and Selling transactions with:
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
Just to clarify...I am actually located in IL myself, and whether or not such transactions are regulated varies by municipality; there is no statewide mandate. In my city we have to get ID and fill out a form, and we must purchase a "second hand dealer" license each year just like pawn and thrift stores in town. It's mainly a revenue stream for the city more than it's about tracking stolen goods however...the police volunteer who picks up the forms only does it when he feels like it. And the laughable part is...all a thief needs to do is sell to some other dealer located outside the city limits or across the river and no reporting is needed. Nice level playing field, eh? A bulldog lawyer could likely get it tossed as restraint of trade. It's been done elsewhere.
<< <i>I am actually located in IL myself, and whether or not such transactions are regulated varies by municipality; there is no statewide mandate. >>
This is one of the things that can be so amusing with these topics where people pronounce How Things Should Be Done without apparently recognizing the fact there might be variables involved that they haven't considered.
<< <i>This is one of the things that can be so amusing with these topics where people pronounce How Things Should Be Done without apparently recognizing the fact there might be variables involved that they haven't considered. >>
Now. let's be fair. There are indeed many people who frequent the boards who have in fact earned their degrees in various fields; here are just a few... armchair lawyer, armchair coin dealer, armchair ethicist, armchair market analyst, armchair investment advisor, armchair grading expert, armchair psychologist, armchair political analyst, armchair morality arbiter (with sub-specialties in business practices and fair price determination), armchair show promoter, armchair internet expert (with special badge and certification as spelling/grammar/syntax/caps lock police officer), and of course, from the sporting world, the ever present monday morning quarterback.
The true cream of the crop also have the coveted "Shoulda-Woulda-Coulda", "Holier Than Thou" ribbons on their diplomas, each topped with a green leafy cluster in the shape of a coniferous shrub called the "If I Wuz Yew".
<< <i>This is one of the things that can be so amusing with these topics where people pronounce How Things Should Be Done without apparently recognizing the fact there might be variables involved that they haven't considered. >>
Now. let's be fair. There are indeed many people who frequent the boards who have in fact earned their degrees in various fields; here are just a few... armchair lawyer, armchair coin dealer, armchair ethicist, armchair market analyst, armchair investment advisor, armchair grading expert, armchair psychologist, armchair political analyst, armchair morality arbiter (with sub-specialties in business practices and fair price determination), armchair show promoter, armchair internet expert (with special badge and certification as spelling/grammar/syntax/caps lock police officer), and of course, from the sporting world, the ever present monday morning quarterback.
The true cream of the crop also have the coveted "Shoulda-Woulda-Coulda", "Holier Than Thou" ribbons on their diplomas, each topped with a green leafy cluster in the shape of a coniferous shrub called the "If I Wuz Yew". >>
Thanks...I needed that...
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
<< <i>Now. let's be fair. There are indeed many people who frequent the boards who have in fact earned their degrees in various fields; here are just a few... >>
True enough- those folks definitely are in abundance.
I'll armchair one for ya, telephoto1: when one outright hoses a guy who didn't happen to know better for 10 large plus, it's not "good business", it's downright rotten. Now then, you have a super-duper, non-judgemental day!
<< <i>when one outright hoses a guy who didn't happen to know better... >>
"Hosing" implies a deliberate intention to take advantage of somebody. Of course, in the case of the 01-S quarter, this did not actually happen. But aside from that...
2 pretty fine lines (with a few who cross them) on this issue:
Dealers seem to side with keets - "it's the old guy's fault, so screw him and screw him well". And, "stop judging others". (of course, they in turn seem to pass judgement on everyone who doesn't agree with them.
Collectors (and people with a conscience) - "a 1901-s quarter is pretty well known not to be bullion and to be a key...by just about anyone who has been around coins for a little bit....hopefully, but anyone working in a coin shop who isn't 12 years old or younger." And, "there didn't seem to be THAT many coins so it would probably have been easy to do a cursory look, as the coins were separated/counted, and notice a 1901 (just like a 1896) and flip it over to look for a MM. Most coin stores seem to have red books and greysheets available for a quick glance."
What is funniest, though, is that, while the threads go on and on (thanks to keets doing his original thread, editing ALL of his posts since it didn't go the way he thought it would (with him getting pats on the back for his great rip), then creating a bogus poll thread, then ANOTHER thread to mock what he did and the board members (ie....this thread)), keets likes to send out nasty little PMs to those that post that they don't agree with what he did. Regardless of how/what they post, if he didn't like it, it's "Nasty PM time". The funny thing is that his PMs, and most of his posts, are always so negative anyway, that I, for one, find his flailings in the PMs to be funny and actually welcome them
So, if you get one of his PMs, you aren't in an elite crowd, but it is a great brotherhood to be in, nonetheless, and just read it, understand where it comes from, and do what I do....laugh and show it to a few folks at work/home/coffee shop/etc.
Edited to ad....I've been PMed flamed by the best on the board....compared to some of them, keets' attempts don't even rank, but he is welcome to keep tryin
<< <i>2 pretty fine lines (with a few who cross them) on this issue:
Dealers seem to side with keets - "it's the old guy's fault, so screw him and screw him well". And, "stop judging others". (of course, they in turn seem to pass judgement on everyone who doesn't agree with them.
Collectors (and people with a conscience) - "a 1901-s quarter is pretty well known not to be bullion and to be a key...by just about anyone who has been around coins for a little bit....hopefully, but anyone working in a coin shop who isn't 12 years old or younger." And, "there didn't seem to be THAT many coins so it would probably have been easy to do a cursory look, as the coins were separated/counted, and notice a 1901 (just like a 1896) and flip it over to look for a MM. Most coin stores seem to have red books and greysheets available for a quick glance."
What is funniest, though, is that, while the threads go on and on (thanks to keets doing his original thread, editing ALL of his posts since it didn't go the way he thought it would (with him getting pats on the back for his great rip), then creating a bogus poll thread, then ANOTHER thread to mock what he did and the board members (ie....this thread)), keets likes to send out nasty little PMs to those that post that they don't agree with what he did. Regardless of how/what they post, if he didn't like it, it's "Nasty PM time". The funny thing is that his PMs, and most of his posts, are always so negative anyway, that I, for one, find his flailings in the PMs to be funny and actually welcome them
So, if you get one of his PMs, you aren't in an elite crowd, but it is a great brotherhood to be in, nonetheless, and just read it, understand where it comes from, and do what I do....laugh and show it to a few folks at work/home/coffee shop/etc.
Edited to ad....I've been PMed flamed by the best on the board....compared to some of them, keets' attempts don't even rank, but he is welcome to keep tryin >>
I'm a cpllector and side with Al. But then, I've met him personally a few times and have been to the shop.
<< <i>Collectors (and people with a conscience) - >>
Ah, yes- them. I posted a question in the first thread asking if any of them who found a rare date coin in a group of silver they'd paid melt for would find their conscience bothering them enough to go back to the store and see if the dealer could help them find the guy that sold the coins to the store.
As of my last reading of that thread, no collectors (or people with a conscience) had replied that they would.
I guess that marks some sort of line, crossed by few, doesn't it?
Poor comparison, mrpotatohead. Putting aside for the moment whether it's OK to cherrypick a dealer's stock (it is, for the dealer is a pro with pro knowledge, and if they miss a special coin in their stock or junk piles, so be it) the fact that by the time the stuff's been in the dealer's junk bin for awhile, mixed in with other stuff, etc. there's no way to tell where it came from. Would you chase down not only who owned it before it made it to the dealer's melt box, but the person who owned it before them, to the person who first touched it after it left the mint's doors? Of course you wouldn't, because it's impossible.
The difference here (and there's the rub) is there's no question about who this particular '01-S quarter came from. Hope this reply from a "person with a conscience" answers that question of yours.
It's only a poor comparison if you want to set it up to be one.
<< <i>... the fact that by the time the stuff's been in the dealer's junk bin for awhile, mixed in with other stuff, etc. there's no way to tell where it came from. >>
Of course not. On the other hand, it could have just got tossed in, while the dealer still remembers the seller. What about then?
<< <i>Would you chase down not only who owned it before it made it to the dealer's melt box, but the person who owned it before them, to the person who first touched it after it left the mint's doors? Of course you wouldn't, because it's impossible. >>
Strawman. I didn't ask about tracking the coin all the way back to the mint. But you knew that, right?
<< <i>The difference here (and there's the rub) is there's no question about who this particular '01-S quarter came from. >>
And there would still be no question who sold the coin to the shop had the store owner/employee just noticed the type but dumped it in the melt bin without checking the date. How do you know with such certainty, when you get that "rip" from the melt bin, that it wouldn't be possible if you don't even try?
<< <i>Hope this reply from a "person with a conscience" answers that question of yours. >>
<< <i>I'll armchair one for ya, telephoto1: when one outright hoses a guy who didn't happen to know better for 10 large plus, it's not "good business", it's downright rotten. Now then, you have a super-duper, non-judgemental day! >>
Non-judgemental, eh...? I don't really think you want to pick at that particular scab. Seems to me that others are making judgements about someone who was just doing his JOB and unknowingly, repeat, UNKNOWINGLY acquired a scarce item... and now is being cast as something just this side of Hitler because he missed the pickup before the guy left... and the people doing so keep conveniently ignoring the fact that an attempt was indeed made to contact the guy. Don't want to let things like the truth get in the way of a good lynching I suppose.
Since so many hypotheticals have been thrown around on these threads...I'll throw another one into the mix, a variation of what potatoheadd put forth...it's really more of a semi-hypothetical, as i actually know a dealer like this...
Let's say you know a dealer who's a copper specialist. He buys a collection to get the copper he wants/needs but there's also some junk silver in it as well that he has little interest in... and offers it to you at silver money just the way he bought it. Being a copper specialist he doesn't necessarily know everything about rare dates in things outside his area of specialty and hasn't gone through the silver except to sort it by denomination and count it. When you buy the "junk silver" and find a rare date item, do you, oh promoter of all things fair, equitable and just, tell him about it and propose a profit split? Or is it just too bad, because he should know everything about everything that is numismatic simply because he's a dealer (in one specific numismatic area)?
<< <i>I'll throw another one into the mix, a variation of what potatoheadd put forth...it's really more of a semi-hypothetical, as i actually know a dealer like this... >>
There was a thread posted with nearly the same scenario just the other day.
Actually telephoto1, that's pretty much exactly what I proposed doing, should such a thing happen to me, in one of my earlier responses to one of these threads. Since I don't make a habit of going back and editing out my replies, you can search for posts by me and track it down yourself. Let me know if you need help finding it, OK?
I have a slight problem with your hypothetical in that every dealer knows key dates. I don't care if you're a specialist in Byzantine coinage, an '01-S is an '01-S. Now if we were talking about a rare die marriage variety, I'd grant you not a whole lot of people would know, much less care.
I also don't see where there was "an attempt was indeed made to contact the guy." If I've missed this, I apologize and would appreciate your pointing me to the post/link where that was stated -- if indeed, it hasn't been edited away.
It's only a poor comparison if you want to set it up to be one. You and I disagree, mrpotatohead. Your comparison is indeed poor, by anyone looking at it reasonably.
<< ... the fact that by the time the stuff's been in the dealer's junk bin for awhile, mixed in with other stuff, etc. there's no way to tell where it came from. >> Of course not. On the other hand, it could have just got tossed in, while the dealer still remembers the seller. What about then? -- if he "just tossed it in" and still remembers the seller, I'd have a big problem with him for not paying a reasonable price/attempting to contact the seller. I also doubt he'd offer to sell it to me for melt. And I doubt I'd go to that dealer again. Lots of fish in the sea, y'know?
<< Would you chase down not only who owned it before it made it to the dealer's melt box, but the person who owned it before them, to the person who first touched it after it left the mint's doors? Of course you wouldn't, because it's impossible. >>
Strawman. I didn't ask about tracking the coin all the way back to the mint. But you knew that, right? -- I knew it, of course. Wasn't sure if you grasped it, though.
<< The difference here (and there's the rub) is there's no question about who this particular '01-S quarter came from. >>
And there would still be no question who sold the coin to the shop had the store owner/employee just noticed the type but dumped it in the melt bin without checking the date. How do you know with such certainty, when you get that "rip" from the melt bin, that it wouldn't be possible if you don't even try? -- I suppose you wouldn't know, unless you asked -- but it's kind of silly to imagine that a given store is going to know where a given coin from their junk pile came from, vs. how we know quite well the situation at hand here, with this particular '01-S. If you saw the transaction go down, where a person just sold their junk silver, then you might know... and you'd have a decision to make about fairness and all that good stuff.
<< Hope this reply from a "person with a conscience" answers that question of yours. >>
Not really, but thanks for the effort. -- Sorry I couldn't be of more help to you.
Comments
How sweet!!
Keets and his merry little band of men in tights here to defend him.
I see that you've edited all your comments in the original 01-S thread. Nice!!
One of these day I'll TTT that thread and add a few more comments. Maybe I'll get to see your reply??
Here's an ethical question for you.
Someone has already asked this question but I didn't see your reply. If the original owner of the 01-S came
back in the shop would you tell him about his coin and would you share the profit with him?
back in the shop would you tell him about his coin and would you share the profit with him?
I won't presume to speak for Al... but since he works for the shop in question and is not the owner, I would think that the decision over any sharing of profit is not his call.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>Someone has already asked this question but I didn't see your reply. If the original owner of the 01-S came
back in the shop would you tell him about his coin and would you share the profit with him?
I won't presume to speak for Al... but since he works for the shop in question and is not the owner, I would think that the decision over any sharing of profit is not his call. >>
<< <i>Someone has already asked this question but I didn't see your reply. If the original owner of the 01-S came
back in the shop would you tell him about his coin and would you share the profit with him?
I won't presume to speak for Al... but since he works for the shop in question and is not the owner, I would think that the decision over any sharing of profit is not his call. >>
Some people find this hard to comprehend. They prefer to push their own version of ethics into the picture.
By your responses, aren't you doing basically the same thing?
Personally, I don't think ethics really come with "versions", but, hey, that's just my humble opinion...
Seems to me you won't be happy until you get the answer you want, which is "No, I won't say anything", after which you'll no doubt gleefully start a round of I-told-you-so, all-dealers-are-crooks backslapping. So why not just cut to the chase now and be done with it?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
(Edit to repair partly erased sentence)
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Your statement that keets is an employee and therefore is in no position to make the decision whether to offer the older customer any extra money is correct. However, the question can be recast in two ways, both of which are interesting:
1) Keets, if it was your store and what you outlined had occurred, would you be willing to offer the older customer any extra money if he came back?
2) Keets, because it is not your store, do you think the current owner would be willing to offer the older customer any extra money if he came back?
I think answers to these questions would shed light on keets' ethics and the perceived ethics of his employer. And, as I've said before, I recognize that different posters have different takes on keets' ethics and I am fine with that point.
One last point to telephoto1: I do not engage in dealer-bashing. I very much like knowledgeable and ethical dealers. I know that in the past I've learned a lot of valuable information from such dealers and I hope to continue learning in the future.
Mark
P.S.: ksteelheader, since I know you'll be reading this post, please let me know of any spelling errors. If you want, you can also mention any grammatical errors you find.
<< <i>telephoto1:
Your statement that keets is an employee and therefore is in no position to make the decision whether to offer the older customer any extra money is correct. However, the question can be recast in two ways, both of which are interesting:
1) Keets, if it was your store and what you outlined had occurred, would you be willing to offer the older customer any extra money if he came back?
2) Keets, because it is not your store, do you think the current owner would be willing to offer the older customer any extra money if he came back?
I think answers to these questions would shed light on keets' ethics and the perceived ethics of his employer. And, as I've said before, I recognize that different posters have different takes on keets' ethics and I am fine with that point.
One last point to telephoto1: I do not engage in dealer-bashing. I very much like knowledgeable and ethical dealers. I know that in the past I've learned a lot of valuable information from such dealers and I hope to continue learning in the future.
Mark >>
OK, for starters, question 1 is a hypothetical thus it is moot... and question 2 is pointless regardless of Keets' answer. His boss isn't the one getting raked over the coals here. I guess I am trying to understand this desperate need to have some question answered when it's fairly obvious to even the casual observer that the people asking it only want to hear one specific answer.
If you want to recast the question, why not just be honest about it...
" Keets, would you please tell us all that neither you, your boss, nor any other coin dealer would give the old fart a dime extra? Because that's what we want to hear."
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Actually your suggested response is what I would prefer to not hear. As I believe I've made clear, I think ethics require that the older customer share in the windfall. Given my view, I'd much rather hear from keets that both he and the owner would compensate the older customer, if given the chance, because that is in accord with what I think is right. But so far keets hasn't responded. I presume that is because he is hard at work...hopefully given this day's customers a fair shake for their money.
ksteelheader: You are falling behind. I have at least three posts that you haven't spell checked.
<< <i>hopefully given this day's customers a fair shake for their money >>
"giving"
(just trying to fill a void)
<< <i>
<< <i>hopefully given this day's customers a fair shake for their money >>
"giving"
(just trying to fill a void) >>
kudos "a"
this entire thread, and all the ones like it, are about an unfilled void
Re your post:
If the man who brought in the coins and sold them can not be found or located, even after much effort [which is not unexpected if the person left no name or phone number and is not regularly seen in the community], should the owner of the coin shop keep the 1901S quarter and not sell it, hoping one day that the man will reappear? Or should, after some reasonable amount of time and effort trying to locate the man, should the owner of the coin shop sell the coin and take a portion of the sales proceeds [10%, 50%, 70%?] and deposit same with the county or state for it to hold under the state's unclaimed property law [with the ultimate destination of the money being that it gets paid to the government]?
How far would you go in trying to locate the man and failing that, would you turn a portion of the sales proceeds of the coin over to the government for it to hold for a man whose identity is not known?
OTOH, as has been pointed out, it seems mighty unusual to have a coin shop make any size purchases whatsoever, without also asking for and requiring proper I.D. Maybe that's just how it is in Illinois.
I thought identification was needed when stores buy things from the public to protect themselves from stolen goods, etc.
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
You ask good questions. I think that it would be entirely unreasonable to expect the store owner to undergo inordinate effort and expense to find the customer. But I would expect that some effort should be expended. Stories about expensive rare coins always seem popular, so depending on the size of the town in which the shop is located, a newspaper or TV station might be interested in the story of a coin dealer attempting to locate a customer in order to compensate the customer for a rare coin. This sort of effort might prove quite fruitful for the dealer because the story can be spun to present the dealer in a very good light: Honest Dealer Wants to Give Customer Thousands of Dollars. Such publicity might attract new customers to the store (and perhaps give the dealer more candidates to rip???
I definitely would not expect the dealer to deposit any of the proceeds with the unclaimed property division of the state. I think the odds of the customer ever collecting from this arena are somewhat less than 0.000000001% so the dealer is effectively giving the funds to the government. If the dealer has made an honest effort to find the customer and simply cannot do so, then the dealer should be entitled to keep the funds.
Of course, all this is my opinion (and my spelling). Others are certainly free to disagree with my opinion (and with my spelling). In fact, given your profession SanctionII, I'd be very interested in your opinion about the questions you posed. (and I'm also interested in ksteelheader's comments about my spelling)
"We owe some old guy thousands of dollars. We are looking for him. If you think you might be him, come on down."
What sort of attention do you think that will attract?
I'm not certain you could phrase it in a manner that would not cause hundreds of greedy cranks to show up.
Run across the wrong litigious greedy crank and things are not fun anymore.
[edit] +1
<< <i>I thought identification was needed when stores buy things from the public to protect themselves from stolen goods, etc. >>
Requirement varies by state and city.
1/2 Cents
U.S. Revenue Stamps
Many members on this forum that now it cannot fit in my signature. Please ask for entire list.
seriously, you guys just need to let this rest.
<< <i>too much ridiculous speculation and posturing with absurd scenarios, and what does Illinois have to do with it??
seriously, you guys just need to let this rest. >>
keets, you should have let it rest after the first post
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I am actually located in IL myself, and whether or not such transactions are regulated varies by municipality; there is no statewide mandate. >>
This is one of the things that can be so amusing with these topics where people pronounce How Things Should Be Done without apparently recognizing the fact there might be variables involved that they haven't considered.
<< <i>This is one of the things that can be so amusing with these topics where people pronounce How Things Should Be Done without apparently recognizing the fact there might be variables involved that they haven't considered. >>
Now. let's be fair. There are indeed many people who frequent the boards who have in fact earned their degrees in various fields; here are just a few... armchair lawyer, armchair coin dealer, armchair ethicist, armchair market analyst, armchair investment advisor, armchair grading expert, armchair psychologist, armchair political analyst, armchair morality arbiter (with sub-specialties in business practices and fair price determination), armchair show promoter, armchair internet expert (with special badge and certification as spelling/grammar/syntax/caps lock police officer), and of course, from the sporting world, the ever present monday morning quarterback.
The true cream of the crop also have the coveted "Shoulda-Woulda-Coulda", "Holier Than Thou" ribbons on their diplomas, each topped with a green leafy cluster in the shape of a coniferous shrub called the "If I Wuz Yew".
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>
<< <i>This is one of the things that can be so amusing with these topics where people pronounce How Things Should Be Done without apparently recognizing the fact there might be variables involved that they haven't considered. >>
Now. let's be fair. There are indeed many people who frequent the boards who have in fact earned their degrees in various fields; here are just a few... armchair lawyer, armchair coin dealer, armchair ethicist, armchair market analyst, armchair investment advisor, armchair grading expert, armchair psychologist, armchair political analyst, armchair morality arbiter (with sub-specialties in business practices and fair price determination), armchair show promoter, armchair internet expert (with special badge and certification as spelling/grammar/syntax/caps lock police officer), and of course, from the sporting world, the ever present monday morning quarterback.
The true cream of the crop also have the coveted "Shoulda-Woulda-Coulda", "Holier Than Thou" ribbons on their diplomas, each topped with a green leafy cluster in the shape of a coniferous shrub called the "If I Wuz Yew".
Thanks...I needed that...
<< <i>Now. let's be fair. There are indeed many people who frequent the boards who have in fact earned their degrees in various fields; here are just a few... >>
True enough- those folks definitely are in abundance.
keets should pay the local dairy to get a sketch of the old guy onto the side of milk cartons.
keets' sister should make fliers to hand out on BINGO night at the VFW hall.
The dealer's grandson should tell all of his buddies in the football huddle.
SOMETHING MUST BE DONE!
<< <i>when one outright hoses a guy who didn't happen to know better... >>
"Hosing" implies a deliberate intention to take advantage of somebody. Of course, in the case of the 01-S quarter, this did not actually happen. But aside from that...
Dealers seem to side with keets - "it's the old guy's fault, so screw him and screw him well". And, "stop judging others". (of course, they in turn seem to pass judgement on everyone who doesn't agree with them.
Collectors (and people with a conscience) - "a 1901-s quarter is pretty well known not to be bullion and to be a key...by just about anyone who has been around coins for a little bit....hopefully, but anyone working in a coin shop who isn't 12 years old or younger." And, "there didn't seem to be THAT many coins so it would probably have been easy to do a cursory look, as the coins were separated/counted, and notice a 1901 (just like a 1896) and flip it over to look for a MM. Most coin stores seem to have red books and greysheets available for a quick glance."
What is funniest, though, is that, while the threads go on and on (thanks to keets doing his original thread, editing ALL of his posts since it didn't go the way he thought it would (with him getting pats on the back for his great rip), then creating a bogus poll thread, then ANOTHER thread to mock what he did and the board members (ie....this thread)), keets likes to send out nasty little PMs to those that post that they don't agree with what he did. Regardless of how/what they post, if he didn't like it, it's "Nasty PM time".
The funny thing is that his PMs, and most of his posts, are always so negative anyway, that I, for one, find his flailings in the PMs to be funny and actually welcome them
So, if you get one of his PMs, you aren't in an elite crowd, but it is a great brotherhood to be in, nonetheless, and just read it, understand where it comes from, and do what I do....laugh and show it to a few folks at work/home/coffee shop/etc.
Edited to ad....I've been PMed flamed by the best on the board....compared to some of them, keets' attempts don't even rank, but he is welcome to keep tryin
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>2 pretty fine lines (with a few who cross them) on this issue:
Dealers seem to side with keets - "it's the old guy's fault, so screw him and screw him well". And, "stop judging others". (of course, they in turn seem to pass judgement on everyone who doesn't agree with them.
Collectors (and people with a conscience) - "a 1901-s quarter is pretty well known not to be bullion and to be a key...by just about anyone who has been around coins for a little bit....hopefully, but anyone working in a coin shop who isn't 12 years old or younger." And, "there didn't seem to be THAT many coins so it would probably have been easy to do a cursory look, as the coins were separated/counted, and notice a 1901 (just like a 1896) and flip it over to look for a MM. Most coin stores seem to have red books and greysheets available for a quick glance."
What is funniest, though, is that, while the threads go on and on (thanks to keets doing his original thread, editing ALL of his posts since it didn't go the way he thought it would (with him getting pats on the back for his great rip), then creating a bogus poll thread, then ANOTHER thread to mock what he did and the board members (ie....this thread)), keets likes to send out nasty little PMs to those that post that they don't agree with what he did. Regardless of how/what they post, if he didn't like it, it's "Nasty PM time".
The funny thing is that his PMs, and most of his posts, are always so negative anyway, that I, for one, find his flailings in the PMs to be funny and actually welcome them
So, if you get one of his PMs, you aren't in an elite crowd, but it is a great brotherhood to be in, nonetheless, and just read it, understand where it comes from, and do what I do....laugh and show it to a few folks at work/home/coffee shop/etc.
Edited to ad....I've been PMed flamed by the best on the board....compared to some of them, keets' attempts don't even rank, but he is welcome to keep tryin
I'm a cpllector and side with Al. But then, I've met him personally a few times and have been to the shop.
You may be a cpllector and side with Al but I am a collector and do not side with actions in this situation.
<< <i>Collectors (and people with a conscience) - >>
Ah, yes- them. I posted a question in the first thread asking if any of them who found a rare date coin in a group of silver they'd paid melt for would find their conscience bothering them enough to go back to the store and see if the dealer could help them find the guy that sold the coins to the store.
As of my last reading of that thread, no collectors (or people with a conscience) had replied that they would.
I guess that marks some sort of line, crossed by few, doesn't it?
The difference here (and there's the rub) is there's no question about who this particular '01-S quarter came from. Hope this reply from a "person with a conscience" answers that question of yours.
<< <i>Poor comparison, mrpotatohead. >>
It's only a poor comparison if you want to set it up to be one.
<< <i>... the fact that by the time the stuff's been in the dealer's junk bin for awhile, mixed in with other stuff, etc. there's no way to tell where it came from. >>
Of course not. On the other hand, it could have just got tossed in, while the dealer still remembers the seller. What about then?
<< <i>Would you chase down not only who owned it before it made it to the dealer's melt box, but the person who owned it before them, to the person who first touched it after it left the mint's doors? Of course you wouldn't, because it's impossible. >>
Strawman. I didn't ask about tracking the coin all the way back to the mint. But you knew that, right?
<< <i>The difference here (and there's the rub) is there's no question about who this particular '01-S quarter came from. >>
And there would still be no question who sold the coin to the shop had the store owner/employee just noticed the type but dumped it in the melt bin without checking the date. How do you know with such certainty, when you get that "rip" from the melt bin, that it wouldn't be possible if you don't even try?
<< <i>Hope this reply from a "person with a conscience" answers that question of yours. >>
Not really, but thanks for the effort.
<< <i>I'll armchair one for ya, telephoto1: when one outright hoses a guy who didn't happen to know better for 10 large plus, it's not "good business", it's downright rotten. Now then, you have a super-duper, non-judgemental day!
Since so many hypotheticals have been thrown around on these threads...I'll throw another one into the mix, a variation of what potatoheadd put forth...it's really more of a semi-hypothetical, as i actually know a dealer like this...
Let's say you know a dealer who's a copper specialist. He buys a collection to get the copper he wants/needs but there's also some junk silver in it as well that he has little interest in... and offers it to you at silver money just the way he bought it. Being a copper specialist he doesn't necessarily know everything about rare dates in things outside his area of specialty and hasn't gone through the silver except to sort it by denomination and count it. When you buy the "junk silver" and find a rare date item, do you, oh promoter of all things fair, equitable and just, tell him about it and propose a profit split? Or is it just too bad, because he should know everything about everything that is numismatic simply because he's a dealer (in one specific numismatic area)?
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I'll throw another one into the mix, a variation of what potatoheadd put forth...it's really more of a semi-hypothetical, as i actually know a dealer like this... >>
There was a thread posted with nearly the same scenario just the other day.
I have a slight problem with your hypothetical in that every dealer knows key dates. I don't care if you're a specialist in Byzantine coinage, an '01-S is an '01-S. Now if we were talking about a rare die marriage variety, I'd grant you not a whole lot of people would know, much less care.
I also don't see where there was "an attempt was indeed made to contact the guy." If I've missed this, I apologize and would appreciate your pointing me to the post/link where that was stated -- if indeed, it hasn't been edited away.
<< Poor comparison, mrpotatohead. >>
It's only a poor comparison if you want to set it up to be one.
You and I disagree, mrpotatohead. Your comparison is indeed poor, by anyone looking at it reasonably.
<< ... the fact that by the time the stuff's been in the dealer's junk bin for awhile, mixed in with other stuff, etc. there's no way to tell where it came from. >>
Of course not. On the other hand, it could have just got tossed in, while the dealer still remembers the seller. What about then?
-- if he "just tossed it in" and still remembers the seller, I'd have a big problem with him for not paying a reasonable price/attempting to contact the seller. I also doubt he'd offer to sell it to me for melt. And I doubt I'd go to that dealer again. Lots of fish in the sea, y'know?
<< Would you chase down not only who owned it before it made it to the dealer's melt box, but the person who owned it before them, to the person who first touched it after it left the mint's doors? Of course you wouldn't, because it's impossible. >>
Strawman. I didn't ask about tracking the coin all the way back to the mint. But you knew that, right?
-- I knew it, of course. Wasn't sure if you grasped it, though.
<< The difference here (and there's the rub) is there's no question about who this particular '01-S quarter came from. >>
And there would still be no question who sold the coin to the shop had the store owner/employee just noticed the type but dumped it in the melt bin without checking the date. How do you know with such certainty, when you get that "rip" from the melt bin, that it wouldn't be possible if you don't even try?
-- I suppose you wouldn't know, unless you asked -- but it's kind of silly to imagine that a given store is going to know where a given coin from their junk pile came from, vs. how we know quite well the situation at hand here, with this particular '01-S. If you saw the transaction go down, where a person just sold their junk silver, then you might know... and you'd have a decision to make about fairness and all that good stuff.
<< Hope this reply from a "person with a conscience" answers that question of yours. >>
Not really, but thanks for the effort.
-- Sorry I couldn't be of more help to you.
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>-- Sorry I couldn't be of more help to you.
You could be, if you didn't ignore the specifics of my questions, substitute your own, and then shoot them down.