I tried to answer your questions honestly. That you can't see the differences in the situation at hand and the scenario you paint says to me there's more interest on your part in justifying things, vs. doing what your gut tells you is right. I would think everyone has such gut checks, but through a combination of upbringing and experiences, some are able to ignore it at will, and some are not.
If there ever was an honest attempt to contact the original seller of this '01-S by keets or his dealer after the sale took place and that was related to us here on the boards, I surely missed it, and (again) apologize if that's the case. I hope that is the case. Really.
I also don't see where there was "an attempt was indeed made to contact the guy." If I've missed this, I apologize and would appreciate your pointing me to the post/link where that was stated -- if indeed, it hasn't been edited away.
As I recall, it was somewhere on the original thread, perhaps even in the original post...but I never saved any screenshots because I never anticipated this big whizzing contest would occur...It might be reiterated elsewhere. I really don't care to wade through pages of text for it and have nothing to prove here, so feel free to look for it if you wish- assuming it hasn't been removed. But it was indeed there. Perhaps you asked for proof knowing it was already deleted? Of course I could just be a liar...I am a dealer after all.
Do you know what a dog does when he's bored? He chasing his tail and yells I want some kibbles and bits, bits, and bits.. Then he gets tired because he never succeeds.. So, lighten up on the author of this thread.. Enjoy what some people post and no flaming allowed.
<< <i>I tried to answer your questions honestly. That you can't see the differences in the situation at hand and the scenario you paint says to me there's more interest on your part in justifying things, vs. doing what your gut tells you is right. I would think everyone has such gut checks, but through a combination of upbringing and experiences, some are able to ignore it at will, and some are not.
If there ever was an honest attempt to contact the original seller of this '01-S by keets or his dealer after the sale took place and that was related to us here on the boards, I surely missed it, and (again) apologize if that's the case. I hope that is the case. Really. >>
The seller actually called back to see if he had left the jewelry at the shop. The jewelry that he declined to sell when he sold the silver. It was not there, but he was requested to leave his phone mumber in case they found it. He declined to give his phone number.
<< <i>That you can't see the differences in the situation at hand and the scenario you paint says to me there's more interest on your part in justifying things, vs. doing what your gut tells you is right. >>
I'm not trying to justify anything, and I can see the differences just fine. I posted a specific hypothetical scenario. I never stated or intended to infer that my hypothetical was anything more than that- a topic of discussion. The fact that my hypothetical is in many ways comparable to the situation posted in the original thread is not relevant. Unless your goal is to deflect attention from the question I asked (that's the only reason I can think of, but I'm open to other explanations), I fail to understand why you are bringing the real-life situation up when you are replying to my posts about the pretend one.
Ah, well then next time I'll limit my answers to your hypothetical, and nothing more. FWIW, I tried to answer your hypothetical in my post anyway, so you should be able to ferret out my take from my response.
So some kind of contact was made, I see. I guess the question is whether the '01-S had been discovered or not, when the call about the jewelry occurred; if it had, then I would like to think it would have been brought up, and if it hadn't been discovered, then of course it couldn't have been brought up at that time.
I know someone had wondered if it wouldn't be advisable to check phone records, etc. to try and contact the guy back, but so be it. Thanks for clarifying that for me Ken.
I don't call you a liar telephoto1, nor do I have any "problem with dealers" as you seem to infer. Dealers are people, and as is the case with all people -- some, I like and trust implicitly -- others, I don't.
<< <i>So some kind of contact was made, I see. I guess the question is whether the '01-S had been discovered or not, when the call about the jewelry occurred; if it had, then I would like to think it would have been brought up, and if it hadn't been discovered, then of course it couldn't have been brought up at that time.
I know someone had wondered if it wouldn't be advisable to check phone records, etc. to try and contact the guy back, but so be it. Thanks for clarifying that for me Ken. >>
<< <i>I don't call you a liar telephoto1, nor do I have any "problem with dealers" as you seem to infer. Dealers are people, and as is the case with all people -- some, I like and trust implicitly -- others, I don't. >>
I have to comment on this as well. I would fully agree it is an individual thing for most folks. I don't think most collectors hate/dislike ALL dealers. Heck, there are plenty I have dealt with the boards here where I have nothing but respect for them. There are also some that I would NOT do business with.
Same thing for local B&Ms around me. I avoid a few of their stores as much as I can (unless I am totally bored...even then, I have no desire to purchase...just killing time and looking ). Others, I go out of my way to at least buy SOMETHING whenever I visit...and without haggling if it is something small.
That's also true for the coin shows.....there are some dealers I stay far far away from as I know what type of person they are (either from ripping me a good one when I was just starting or watching as they did it to others and I had to walk away and bite my tongue since it was at a show they paid a price to work at and I didn't). But, there are also some great dealers at the same shows....just last week, I found NOTHING worth buying, at the prices offered, but still went out of my way to spend almost an hour, in the heat and sweating, looking through boxes at a dealer's table, and buying SOMETHING from him. I made sure I wasn't taking away from any of his other customers nor taking a spot that was needed, so he could make a sale if necessary. Yet, I figure that a good dealer deserves the business when possible.
So, one shouldn't think people HATE ALL dealers....rather, there are plenty of dealers that are good, respected, and treat folks fairly.
<< <i>FWIW, I tried to answer your hypothetical in my post anyway, so you should be able to ferret out my take from my response. >>
With all due respect (and no- I'm not trying to be a smarta$$), I don't see your answer. If you would care to copy/paste it in a reply, I would certainly be happy to consider it. I apologize in advance for any confusion due to the numerous tangents this topic has generated.
<< <i>Collectors (and people with a conscience) - >>
Ah, yes- them. I posted a question in the first thread asking if any of them who found a rare date coin in a group of silver they'd paid melt for would find their conscience bothering them enough to go back to the store and see if the dealer could help them find the guy that sold the coins to the store.
As of my last reading of that thread, no collectors (or people with a conscience) had replied that they would.
I guess that marks some sort of line, crossed by few, doesn't it? >>
Misterpotatohead,
What your hypothetical ignores is the fact that the dealer is a professional seeking to sell his wares to the public. However, in our scenario, the old guy came to a professional, seeking his fair offer for the value of his coins and instead was offered far, far less than their real value. Professional versus amateur. That's some sort of line, isn't it?
Said another way, it is reasonable to assume that the buyer of coins would actually give a fair value to the seller, and in the event they did not and find subsequent to the sale that they "ripped" a key date coin, they would make every attempt to contact the individual.
I fully realize that this is not quite what happened with Keets' scenario, but it could have had it been their policy to note the sellers of all coins to the shop. However, we all know that it rarely happens as most B&M stores make a significant amount of their income buying scrap silver and the subsequent cherrypicking -- and I think that's why many have reacted in a judgmental way to this situation.
Respectfully...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>What is funniest, though, is that, while the threads go on and on (thanks to keets doing his original thread, editing ALL of his posts since it didn't go the way he thought it would (with him getting pats on the back for his great rip), then creating a bogus poll thread, then ANOTHER thread to mock what he did and the board members (ie....this thread)), keets likes to send out nasty little PMs to those that post that they don't agree with what he did. Regardless of how/what they post, if he didn't like it, it's "Nasty PM time". The funny thing is that his PMs, and most of his posts, are always so negative anyway, that I, for one, find his flailings in the PMs to be funny and actually welcome them
So, if you get one of his PMs, you aren't in an elite crowd, but it is a great brotherhood to be in, nonetheless, and just read it, understand where it comes from, and do what I do....laugh and show it to a few folks at work/home/coffee shop/etc. >>
Bochi,
In fairness, I disagreed with Keets on this issue and received a very respectful PM.
Perhaps he's like most people, and meets respect with respect and disrespect with disrespect. Said another way, perhaps if some of us were more respectful in our disputes we might get a different response from those we disagree with.
Just some food for thought, respectfully submitted -- hoping we can disagree and still remain civil....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>I don't call you a liar telephoto1, nor do I have any "problem with dealers" as you seem to infer. Dealers are people, and as is the case with all people -- some, I like and trust implicitly -- others, I don't. >>
Understood. Glad to hear someone acknowledge that dealers are indeed people. Previous posts on this thread and its related siblings along with various others I've seen led me to think that popular sentiment ran to the contrary. I'm sure that most posters here have picked up on it by now... the "all dealers are crooks" genre of thinking has always been a hot button for me. Bet that's a real shocker!
My big frustration here is the ganging-up on a guy who was a)doing his job b)made an honest oversight and c)had no way to contact the seller after the fact, as confirmed by Ken. So all the what-if, coulda, woulda, shoulda tangents here are moot and totally pointless, and attempts to browbeat OP into answering pointless hypotheticals and making negative inferences about his honesty and integrity are all uncalled for. Plus, in case no one's noticed, he is not responding further to any of these threads so continuing to make such demands is folly.
We are all numismatists here...some collectors, some professional numismatists...and bashing someone in this fashion is IMO the epitome of the same unethical behavior that is being decried.
And, in the spirit of numismatic unity, I'll even make a preemptive apology to anyone who's taken any of my comments the wrong way.
As to the rest, I don't recall saying or inferring that I thought ALL collectors hated or disliked ALL dealers; that would be flat out silly (and business would be pretty slow indeed if that were true, now wouldn't it?). By the same token, I've never said or inferred that all dealers are saints either. In any business there are a few rotten apples; however in this instance you are attacking one of the better ones using incorrect assumptions.
Side note to Mike in FL...I can't speak for anyone else- but if a significant portion of our income relied on cherrypicking good stuff from junk silver deals, then believe me, we'd be hurting. The last couple lots we bought, I was just happy that they went through the counter without jamming it.
What your hypothetical ignores is the fact that the dealer is a professional seeking to sell his wares to the public. >>
No, not really. People make mistakes- even professionals. Maybe the dealer forgot to sort the silver he set aside before dumping it in the melt bag. Maybe his assistant thought the dealer had already sorted it- by the time the dealer realized what had happened, it had been sold as junk silver to a collector and the dealer didn't think it was worth worrying about because what are the odds of an 01-S quarter being in a lot like that anyway? I'm sure if you think about it, you can come up with more ways a key date quarter could accidentally get misplaced like that without the need to assume devious intent.
Anyway, what I find interesting about the comparison of the two scenarios (my hypothetical vs. keets real-life one) is that the factor some people appear to be focusing on is who (dealer or collector) ends up with the windfall. When the dealer gets it, it's "greedy crooked dealers", but when the collector gets it, it's high fives and "You sucks" all around. The old guy who doesn't get full value for his coin is secondary in consideration.
If there ever was an honest attempt to contact the original seller of this '01-S by keets or his dealer after the sale took place and that was related to us here on the boards, I surely missed it, and (again) apologize if that's the case. I hope that is the case.
it's been posted already and you've read it although it's been deleted by me from the initial OP. i suppose one could argue that i technically didn't try to contact the old guy after the sale, i did however talk to him on the phone after the sale when he called the shop. as you know, he declined to give me his phone number. this is really a silly point to get stuck on. i wish i'd have done things differently but it's pointless to get in a wrestling match with my conscience over it. the best i can hope for is that the old guy comes back to the shop, but there's no guarantee that even that will help. i doubt that my boss even saw him because he was busy with someone else at the time the transaction took place, and there's every chance that i won't be at the counter or even in the shop if he returns. a good part of my day is spent towards the rear of the shop while perhaps an hour is spent running errands to the bank, PO, etc. to that end, he may have already been in the shop and we don't know it.
<< <i>Side note to Mike in FL...I can't speak for anyone else- but if a significant portion of our income relied on cherrypicking good stuff from junk silver deals, then believe me, we'd be hurting. The last couple lots we bought, I was just happy that they went through the counter without jamming it. >>
Fair enough. Perhaps I should have used the word "many" rather than "most"...or "amount" rather than "portion".
However, the point remains that many shops make significant amounts of money from "buying right", whether that means finding an 01-s quarter in scrap or lowball bids it really matters not.
Again, none of this necessarily applies to the OP, nor does it justify the judgments made by some in this thread -- but it does, I think, help to explain much of the negative reaction to the issue....Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
What your hypothetical ignores is the fact that the dealer is a professional seeking to sell his wares to the public. >>
No, not really. People make mistakes- even professionals. Maybe the dealer forgot to sort the silver he set aside before dumping it in the melt bag. Maybe his assistant thought the dealer had already sorted it- by the time the dealer realized what had happened, it had been sold as junk silver to a collector and the dealer didn't think it was worth worrying about because what are the odds of an 01-S quarter being in a lot like that anyway? I'm sure if you think about it, you can come up with more ways a key date quarter could accidentally get misplaced like that without the need to assume devious intent.
Anyway, what I find interesting about the comparison of the two scenarios (my hypothetical vs. keets real-life one) is that the factor some people appear to be focusing on is who (dealer or collector) ends up with the windfall. When the dealer gets it, it's "greedy crooked dealers", but when the collector gets it, it's high fives and "You sucks" all around. The old guy who doesn't get full value for his coin is secondary in consideration. >>
Let me try and put it another way...
There's a big difference (in my eyes) between taking advantage of the ignorance of the inexperienced and taking advantage of the mistake of the professional.
You may prefer to ignore the difference in experience level and focus on the "taking advantage of" portion. However, I would respond there's a distinct difference in the expectations as well as the experience levels of the individuals going into the transaction -- which you are completely ignoring.
That's not to say your wrong in distilling down the issue to the level you have, but rather to point to the distinction that you are ignoring that others simply don't.
Respectfully...Mike
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>There's a big difference (in my eyes) between taking advantage of the ignorance of the inexperienced and taking advantage of the mistake of the professional. >>
I'm not talking about where an experienced dealer takes advantage of an inexperienced seller. I specifically said "I'm sure if you think about it, you can come up with more ways a key date quarter could accidentally get misplaced like that without the need to assume devious intent."
<< <i>2 pretty fine lines (with a few who cross them) on this issue:
Dealers seem to side with keets - "it's the old guy's fault, so screw him and screw him well". And, "stop judging others". (of course, they in turn seem to pass judgement on everyone who doesn't agree with them.
Collectors (and people with a conscience) - "a 1901-s quarter is pretty well known not to be bullion and to be a key...by just about anyone who has been around coins for a little bit....hopefully, but anyone working in a coin shop who isn't 12 years old or younger." And, "there didn't seem to be THAT many coins so it would probably have been easy to do a cursory look, as the coins were separated/counted, and notice a 1901 (just like a 1896) and flip it over to look for a MM. Most coin stores seem to have red books and greysheets available for a quick glance."
What is funniest, though, is that, while the threads go on and on (thanks to keets doing his original thread, editing ALL of his posts since it didn't go the way he thought it would (with him getting pats on the back for his great rip), then creating a bogus poll thread, then ANOTHER thread to mock what he did and the board members (ie....this thread)), keets likes to send out nasty little PMs to those that post that they don't agree with what he did. Regardless of how/what they post, if he didn't like it, it's "Nasty PM time". The funny thing is that his PMs, and most of his posts, are always so negative anyway, that I, for one, find his flailings in the PMs to be funny and actually welcome them
So, if you get one of his PMs, you aren't in an elite crowd, but it is a great brotherhood to be in, nonetheless, and just read it, understand where it comes from, and do what I do....laugh and show it to a few folks at work/home/coffee shop/etc.
Edited to ad....I've been PMed flamed by the best on the board....compared to some of them, keets' attempts don't even rank, but he is welcome to keep tryin >>
I'm a cpllector and side with Al. But then, I've met him personally a few times and have been to the shop. >>
Did he get you by the ankles and tape your mouth also?
<< <i>There's a big difference (in my eyes) between taking advantage of the ignorance of the inexperienced and taking advantage of the mistake of the professional. >>
I'm not talking about where an experienced dealer takes advantage of an inexperienced seller. I specifically said "I'm sure if you think about it, you can come up with more ways a key date quarter could accidentally get misplaced like that without the need to assume devious intent."
I don't know how I can make it any plainer. >>
I got it the first time, but thank you for repeating it.
More to the point, you sure were assuming devious intent in your hypothetical:
<< Collectors (and people with a conscience) - >>
Ah, yes- them. I posted a question in the first thread asking if any of them who found a rare date coin in a group of silver they'd paid melt for would find their conscience bothering them enough to go back to the store and see if the dealer could help them find the guy that sold the coins to the store.
As of my last reading of that thread, no collectors (or people with a conscience) had replied that they would.
I guess that marks some sort of line, crossed by few, doesn't it?
I'm not sure how you could read anything but devious intent into the hypothetical above. Specifically, the implied devious intent of the collector not to return to the store where they ripped off the dealer compared to the (presumed) devious intent of purchasing a 01-s quarter as scrap.
So, in your hypothetical, if you're going to assume devious intent on behalf of the collector, it is only fair to assume devious intent on the part of the dealer, otherwise your transitive ethics equation is imbalanced.
Do you get it now, or have I misunderstood you?
Collector of Large Cents, US Type, and modern pocket change.
<< <i>More to the point, you sure were assuming devious intent in your hypothetical >>
Actually, that was a sarcastic comment in response to the attitude I see expressed (way too often) that seems to imply that the morality bar should somehow be set higher for dealers than for collectors. Personally, I think it should be set at the same level for everyone.
<< <i>Do you get it now, or have I misunderstood you? >>
I believe you have misunderstood me.
"Specifically, the implied devious intent of the collector not to return to the store where they ripped off the dealer compared to the (presumed) devious intent of purchasing a 01-s quarter as scrap."
There was no implied devious intent on the part of the collector or ripoff of the dealer (as the dealer paid scrap for the coin and was paid scrap by the collector) and there was no devious intent on the part of the dealer, who, for totally undevious reasons, didn't inspect the coin closely when originally purchasing it. Nobody was trying to cheat anybody out of anything.
Let's try this again.
Scenario 1: Dealer pays scrap for a rare coin because he doesn't examine it at the time of purchase, and later recognizes its value. Scenario 2: Dealer pays scrap for a rare coin because he doesn't examine it at the time of purchase, sells it for scrap, and its value is later recognized by the collector who bought it.
In both cases, the original seller loses out, but in only scenario 1 is the individual who identifies (and gains the benefit) of the value of the "found" coin expected to be responsible for making the seller whole.
That's the best I can do to explain the intent of my original question- does it help or just make things worse?
bochiman said-----keets likes to send out nasty little PMs to those that post that they don't agree with what he did. Regardless of how/what they post, if he didn't like it, it's "Nasty PM time". now soty27 says-----I did recieve the "keets PM special" Thought I would stop by and say hello.
well, soty27 this is the worst aspect of the entire thread, where members who don't really have a point-of-view try to stir things up while i'm the one who's called an attention whore. do us a favor and post the entirety of any PM's i've sent you which were nasty, while at the same time making certain to post your PM to me where you state that you don't think i did anything wrong.
while i did in fact go over the edge a bit in one PM to another member, i would challenge anyone else to post whatever they choose from their PM files where i've done that, being certain to also post their own PM's to me. i'm not worried because that post by bochiman had one objective, only to cast me in a bad way because he doesn't agree with what's happened here. as i've said before in as many woirds, this entire thing has brought out the worst in many of us.
do us a favor and post the entirety of any PM's i've sent you which were nasty, while at the same time making certain to post your PM to me where you state that you don't think i did anything wrong.
A challenge has been made. Will they put up, or shut up??
<< <i>do us a favor and post the entirety of any PM's i've sent you which were nasty, while at the same time making certain to post your PM to me where you state that you don't think i did anything wrong.
A challenge has been made. Will they put up, or shut up?? >>
Though I am one of those who feels the old man was taken, I must say that keets PM to me was very civil, and simply answered a question I had brought up in a post.
There you go. I have "put up", and I will also try hard to "shut up", because we all have our own opinions, and it doesn't appear that they will change anytime soon
Although my cat has been fed, it still meows at me.
I have two five year old "DSH" kitties. I'm just trying to keep this thread going and doing it in the form of 'tweets' as you would see on twitter. You see, if it weren't for me, these other folks would stop posting.
Just wanted to reply 'cause I got swamped with a project @ work, haven't had time to reply to the theoretical question posed earlier properly, will try to tonite!
My pm from keets was similar to that of treeman: A reasonable, definitely civil pm even though I expect that keets knows I disagree with how the incident unfolded. I suggested to keets that he post what he pm'ed to me. I still wish he would.
Mark
P.S: I guess I owe ksteelheader thanks for helping me improve my spelling because apparently I haven't made any spelling errors in my last several posts on this thread.
<< <i>do us a favor and post the entirety of any PM's i've sent you which were nasty, while at the same time making certain to post your PM to me where you state that you don't think i did anything wrong.
A challenge has been made. Will they put up, or shut up?? >>
Is the challenge to me? While I don't back down from much, as people know, I think. I don't like to go around posting PMs. One of the PMs that I received would have to be somewhat edited due to the swearing that I received in that PM (but, my PM prior to that, that seems to have prompted the swearing, would not have to be edited as I didn't swear).
So, again, is the challenge to me? Does keets really want to keep this going on and on? He said he edited his original thread and posts so it would drop, but it seems he wants it to keep going........
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free
Oh, and keets has sent several PM's to me, and all were civil. As for the theoretical question, I think mrpotatohead and MikeinFl debated far better than I could! I was reading the hypothetical in the same way as Mike, that there was an assumption of devious intent.
FWIW, I guess how I'd approach the hypothetical, is let's say I'm looking through my nice local dealer's pile of silver Barber quarters. Somehow he's gotten some as bullion both from other dealers (several) and two walk-in customers over the last month -- each had Barber material and it's all been mixed together, and looked at in a cursory way, but nothing stood out. So, all went into the same bin, and there's no way to tell what came from who. Right now they are just all stock that my dealer owns.
So with that established, I'm looking through the dates and I see an '01-S. Obviously exciting, and tempting just to pay for it and get the coin for a song, hopefully without the dealer noticing the date. For it is true, my favorite dealer's always said to me "if I miss something in such a deal, and it's to your benefit, more power to you." So here I am, and I am thinking I would approach it two different ways.
If it's a dealer I don't know, and I'm just casually visiting a shop while on vacation in a state I've never been to, I go ahead and complete the purchase and walk out a happy camper, without letting on about what I got (no reason to rub the dealer's nose in it -- and understandably, they'd be upset and perhaps even might claim "hey that got thrown in there by mistake, give it back please" -- which I wouldn't believe, 'cause if the dealer knew they had an '01-S, it would quickly be in a mylar 2x2, I'd think.) But anyway, if the dealer didn't notice it, and really wasn't aware it was in there, then I think I'm within my rights to do so.
Now on the other hand, if this scenario happened with my fave dealer, who always said I should be allowed to keep a coin in such a situation, I would still feel the need to mention it, either before or after making the purchase -- honestly not sure which -- and offering him something. Maybe, agree to sell it and split proceeds with him? Maybe, keep it and give him $1000? (A lot of money for me, yet a bargain compared to coin's actual value.) Anyway, I like him a lot and consider him a friend, so that's what I'd try to do in that case. I kinda hope if it ever does happen to me, it happens in his shop -- he'd get more money out of the deal than just junk silver, maybe I'd be able to keep the coin, or at least make some $$$, but either way it would work out to a great story for both of us, and I would continue to feel welcome there as usual.
Maybe that answers the theoretical, I'm not sure at this point!
Comments
Note to Keets: If you see a 1955 penny and the date looks a little blurry...
If there ever was an honest attempt to contact the original seller of this '01-S by keets or his dealer after the sale took place and that was related to us here on the boards, I surely missed it, and (again) apologize if that's the case. I hope that is the case. Really.
As I recall, it was somewhere on the original thread, perhaps even in the original post...but I never saved any screenshots because I never anticipated this big whizzing contest would occur...It might be reiterated elsewhere. I really don't care to wade through pages of text for it and have nothing to prove here, so feel free to look for it if you wish- assuming it hasn't been removed. But it was indeed there. Perhaps you asked for proof knowing it was already deleted? Of course I could just be a liar...I am a dealer after all.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
<< <i>I tried to answer your questions honestly. That you can't see the differences in the situation at hand and the scenario you paint says to me there's more interest on your part in justifying things, vs. doing what your gut tells you is right. I would think everyone has such gut checks, but through a combination of upbringing and experiences, some are able to ignore it at will, and some are not.
If there ever was an honest attempt to contact the original seller of this '01-S by keets or his dealer after the sale took place and that was related to us here on the boards, I surely missed it, and (again) apologize if that's the case. I hope that is the case. Really.
The seller actually called back to see if he had left the jewelry at the shop. The jewelry that he declined to sell when he sold the silver. It was not there, but he was requested to leave his phone mumber in case they found it. He declined to give his phone number.
<< <i>That you can't see the differences in the situation at hand and the scenario you paint says to me there's more interest on your part in justifying things, vs. doing what your gut tells you is right. >>
I'm not trying to justify anything, and I can see the differences just fine. I posted a specific hypothetical scenario. I never stated or intended to infer that my hypothetical was anything more than that- a topic of discussion. The fact that my hypothetical is in many ways comparable to the situation posted in the original thread is not relevant. Unless your goal is to deflect attention from the question I asked (that's the only reason I can think of, but I'm open to other explanations), I fail to understand why you are bringing the real-life situation up when you are replying to my posts about the pretend one.
I know someone had wondered if it wouldn't be advisable to check phone records, etc. to try and contact the guy back, but so be it. Thanks for clarifying that for me Ken.
<< <i>So some kind of contact was made, I see. I guess the question is whether the '01-S had been discovered or not, when the call about the jewelry occurred; if it had, then I would like to think it would have been brought up, and if it hadn't been discovered, then of course it couldn't have been brought up at that time.
I know someone had wondered if it wouldn't be advisable to check phone records, etc. to try and contact the guy back, but so be it. Thanks for clarifying that for me Ken. >>
I believe the call was made before the discovery.
<< <i>I don't call you a liar telephoto1, nor do I have any "problem with dealers" as you seem to infer. Dealers are people, and as is the case with all people -- some, I like and trust implicitly -- others, I don't. >>
I have to comment on this as well. I would fully agree it is an individual thing for most folks. I don't think most collectors hate/dislike ALL dealers. Heck, there are plenty I have dealt with the boards here where I have nothing but respect for them. There are also some that I would NOT do business with.
Same thing for local B&Ms around me. I avoid a few of their stores as much as I can (unless I am totally bored...even then, I have no desire to purchase...just killing time and looking
That's also true for the coin shows.....there are some dealers I stay far far away from as I know what type of person they are (either from ripping me a good one when I was just starting or watching as they did it to others and I had to walk away and bite my tongue since it was at a show they paid a price to work at and I didn't). But, there are also some great dealers at the same shows....just last week, I found NOTHING worth buying, at the prices offered, but still went out of my way to spend almost an hour, in the heat and sweating, looking through boxes at a dealer's table, and buying SOMETHING from him. I made sure I wasn't taking away from any of his other customers nor taking a spot that was needed, so he could make a sale if necessary. Yet, I figure that a good dealer deserves the business when possible.
So, one shouldn't think people HATE ALL dealers....rather, there are plenty of dealers that are good, respected, and treat folks fairly.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
<< <i>FWIW, I tried to answer your hypothetical in my post anyway, so you should be able to ferret out my take from my response. >>
With all due respect (and no- I'm not trying to be a smarta$$), I don't see your answer. If you would care to copy/paste it in a reply, I would certainly be happy to consider it. I apologize in advance for any confusion due to the numerous tangents this topic has generated.
Some of us, including me are just practicing for when we get really old.
~FRRRUMPH~
"Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
<< <i>
<< <i>Collectors (and people with a conscience) - >>
Ah, yes- them. I posted a question in the first thread asking if any of them who found a rare date coin in a group of silver they'd paid melt for would find their conscience bothering them enough to go back to the store and see if the dealer could help them find the guy that sold the coins to the store.
As of my last reading of that thread, no collectors (or people with a conscience) had replied that they would.
I guess that marks some sort of line, crossed by few, doesn't it?
Misterpotatohead,
What your hypothetical ignores is the fact that the dealer is a professional seeking to sell his wares to the public. However, in our scenario, the old guy came to a professional, seeking his fair offer for the value of his coins and instead was offered far, far less than their real value. Professional versus amateur. That's some sort of line, isn't it?
Said another way, it is reasonable to assume that the buyer of coins would actually give a fair value to the seller, and in the event they did not and find subsequent to the sale that they "ripped" a key date coin, they would make every attempt to contact the individual.
I fully realize that this is not quite what happened with Keets' scenario, but it could have had it been their policy to note the sellers of all coins to the shop. However, we all know that it rarely happens as most B&M stores make a significant amount of their income buying scrap silver and the subsequent cherrypicking -- and I think that's why many have reacted in a judgmental way to this situation.
Respectfully...Mike
<< <i>What is funniest, though, is that, while the threads go on and on (thanks to keets doing his original thread, editing ALL of his posts since it didn't go the way he thought it would (with him getting pats on the back for his great rip), then creating a bogus poll thread, then ANOTHER thread to mock what he did and the board members (ie....this thread)), keets likes to send out nasty little PMs to those that post that they don't agree with what he did. Regardless of how/what they post, if he didn't like it, it's "Nasty PM time".
The funny thing is that his PMs, and most of his posts, are always so negative anyway, that I, for one, find his flailings in the PMs to be funny and actually welcome them
So, if you get one of his PMs, you aren't in an elite crowd, but it is a great brotherhood to be in, nonetheless, and just read it, understand where it comes from, and do what I do....laugh and show it to a few folks at work/home/coffee shop/etc. >>
Bochi,
In fairness, I disagreed with Keets on this issue and received a very respectful PM.
Perhaps he's like most people, and meets respect with respect and disrespect with disrespect. Said another way, perhaps if some of us were more respectful in our disputes we might get a different response from those we disagree with.
Just some food for thought, respectfully submitted -- hoping we can disagree and still remain civil....Mike
<< <i>I don't call you a liar telephoto1, nor do I have any "problem with dealers" as you seem to infer. Dealers are people, and as is the case with all people -- some, I like and trust implicitly -- others, I don't. >>
Understood. Glad to hear someone acknowledge that dealers are indeed people. Previous posts on this thread and its related siblings along with various others I've seen led me to think that popular sentiment ran to the contrary. I'm sure that most posters here have picked up on it by now... the "all dealers are crooks" genre of thinking has always been a hot button for me. Bet that's a real shocker!
My big frustration here is the ganging-up on a guy who was a)doing his job b)made an honest oversight and c)had no way to contact the seller after the fact, as confirmed by Ken. So all the what-if, coulda, woulda, shoulda tangents here are moot and totally pointless, and attempts to browbeat OP into answering pointless hypotheticals and making negative inferences about his honesty and integrity are all uncalled for. Plus, in case no one's noticed, he is not responding further to any of these threads so continuing to make such demands is folly.
We are all numismatists here...some collectors, some professional numismatists...and bashing someone in this fashion is IMO the epitome of the same unethical behavior that is being decried.
And, in the spirit of numismatic unity, I'll even make a preemptive apology to anyone who's taken any of my comments the wrong way.
As to the rest, I don't recall saying or inferring that I thought ALL collectors hated or disliked ALL dealers; that would be flat out silly (and business would be pretty slow indeed if that were true, now wouldn't it?). By the same token, I've never said or inferred that all dealers are saints either. In any business there are a few rotten apples; however in this instance you are attacking one of the better ones using incorrect assumptions.
Side note to Mike in FL...I can't speak for anyone else- but if a significant portion of our income relied on cherrypicking good stuff from junk silver deals, then believe me, we'd be hurting. The last couple lots we bought, I was just happy that they went through the counter without jamming it.
RIP Mom- 1932-2012
Sheesh...
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"Those guys weren't Fathers they were...Mothers."
<< <i>Misterpotatohead,
What your hypothetical ignores is the fact that the dealer is a professional seeking to sell his wares to the public. >>
No, not really. People make mistakes- even professionals. Maybe the dealer forgot to sort the silver he set aside before dumping it in the melt bag. Maybe his assistant thought the dealer had already sorted it- by the time the dealer realized what had happened, it had been sold as junk silver to a collector and the dealer didn't think it was worth worrying about because what are the odds of an 01-S quarter being in a lot like that anyway? I'm sure if you think about it, you can come up with more ways a key date quarter could accidentally get misplaced like that without the need to assume devious intent.
Anyway, what I find interesting about the comparison of the two scenarios (my hypothetical vs. keets real-life one) is that the factor some people appear to be focusing on is who (dealer or collector) ends up with the windfall. When the dealer gets it, it's "greedy crooked dealers", but when the collector gets it, it's high fives and "You sucks" all around. The old guy who doesn't get full value for his coin is secondary in consideration.
it's been posted already and you've read it although it's been deleted by me from the initial OP. i suppose one could argue that i technically didn't try to contact the old guy after the sale, i did however talk to him on the phone after the sale when he called the shop. as you know, he declined to give me his phone number. this is really a silly point to get stuck on. i wish i'd have done things differently but it's pointless to get in a wrestling match with my conscience over it. the best i can hope for is that the old guy comes back to the shop, but there's no guarantee that even that will help. i doubt that my boss even saw him because he was busy with someone else at the time the transaction took place, and there's every chance that i won't be at the counter or even in the shop if he returns. a good part of my day is spent towards the rear of the shop while perhaps an hour is spent running errands to the bank, PO, etc. to that end, he may have already been in the shop and we don't know it.
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>Side note to Mike in FL...I can't speak for anyone else- but if a significant portion of our income relied on cherrypicking good stuff from junk silver deals, then believe me, we'd be hurting. The last couple lots we bought, I was just happy that they went through the counter without jamming it.
Fair enough. Perhaps I should have used the word "many" rather than "most"...or "amount" rather than "portion".
However, the point remains that many shops make significant amounts of money from "buying right", whether that means finding an 01-s quarter in scrap or lowball bids it really matters not.
Again, none of this necessarily applies to the OP, nor does it justify the judgments made by some in this thread -- but it does, I think, help to explain much of the negative reaction to the issue....Mike
<< <i>
<< <i>Misterpotatohead,
What your hypothetical ignores is the fact that the dealer is a professional seeking to sell his wares to the public. >>
No, not really. People make mistakes- even professionals. Maybe the dealer forgot to sort the silver he set aside before dumping it in the melt bag. Maybe his assistant thought the dealer had already sorted it- by the time the dealer realized what had happened, it had been sold as junk silver to a collector and the dealer didn't think it was worth worrying about because what are the odds of an 01-S quarter being in a lot like that anyway? I'm sure if you think about it, you can come up with more ways a key date quarter could accidentally get misplaced like that without the need to assume devious intent.
Anyway, what I find interesting about the comparison of the two scenarios (my hypothetical vs. keets real-life one) is that the factor some people appear to be focusing on is who (dealer or collector) ends up with the windfall. When the dealer gets it, it's "greedy crooked dealers", but when the collector gets it, it's high fives and "You sucks" all around. The old guy who doesn't get full value for his coin is secondary in consideration. >>
Let me try and put it another way...
There's a big difference (in my eyes) between taking advantage of the ignorance of the inexperienced and taking advantage of the mistake of the professional.
You may prefer to ignore the difference in experience level and focus on the "taking advantage of" portion. However, I would respond there's a distinct difference in the expectations as well as the experience levels of the individuals going into the transaction -- which you are completely ignoring.
That's not to say your wrong in distilling down the issue to the level you have, but rather to point to the distinction that you are ignoring that others simply don't.
Respectfully...Mike
<< <i>There's a big difference (in my eyes) between taking advantage of the ignorance of the inexperienced and taking advantage of the mistake of the professional. >>
I'm not talking about where an experienced dealer takes advantage of an inexperienced seller. I specifically said "I'm sure if you think about it, you can come up with more ways a key date quarter could accidentally get misplaced like that without the need to assume devious intent."
I don't know how I can make it any plainer.
<< <i>
<< <i>2 pretty fine lines (with a few who cross them) on this issue:
Dealers seem to side with keets - "it's the old guy's fault, so screw him and screw him well". And, "stop judging others". (of course, they in turn seem to pass judgement on everyone who doesn't agree with them.
Collectors (and people with a conscience) - "a 1901-s quarter is pretty well known not to be bullion and to be a key...by just about anyone who has been around coins for a little bit....hopefully, but anyone working in a coin shop who isn't 12 years old or younger." And, "there didn't seem to be THAT many coins so it would probably have been easy to do a cursory look, as the coins were separated/counted, and notice a 1901 (just like a 1896) and flip it over to look for a MM. Most coin stores seem to have red books and greysheets available for a quick glance."
What is funniest, though, is that, while the threads go on and on (thanks to keets doing his original thread, editing ALL of his posts since it didn't go the way he thought it would (with him getting pats on the back for his great rip), then creating a bogus poll thread, then ANOTHER thread to mock what he did and the board members (ie....this thread)), keets likes to send out nasty little PMs to those that post that they don't agree with what he did. Regardless of how/what they post, if he didn't like it, it's "Nasty PM time".
The funny thing is that his PMs, and most of his posts, are always so negative anyway, that I, for one, find his flailings in the PMs to be funny and actually welcome them
So, if you get one of his PMs, you aren't in an elite crowd, but it is a great brotherhood to be in, nonetheless, and just read it, understand where it comes from, and do what I do....laugh and show it to a few folks at work/home/coffee shop/etc.
Edited to ad....I've been PMed flamed by the best on the board....compared to some of them, keets' attempts don't even rank, but he is welcome to keep tryin
I'm a cpllector and side with Al. But then, I've met him personally a few times and have been to the shop.
Did he get you by the ankles and tape your mouth also?
<< <i>
<< <i>There's a big difference (in my eyes) between taking advantage of the ignorance of the inexperienced and taking advantage of the mistake of the professional. >>
I'm not talking about where an experienced dealer takes advantage of an inexperienced seller. I specifically said "I'm sure if you think about it, you can come up with more ways a key date quarter could accidentally get misplaced like that without the need to assume devious intent."
I don't know how I can make it any plainer. >>
I got it the first time, but thank you for repeating it.
More to the point, you sure were assuming devious intent in your hypothetical:
<< Collectors (and people with a conscience) - >>
Ah, yes- them. I posted a question in the first thread asking if any of them who found a rare date coin in a group of silver they'd paid melt for would find their conscience bothering them enough to go back to the store and see if the dealer could help them find the guy that sold the coins to the store.
As of my last reading of that thread, no collectors (or people with a conscience) had replied that they would.
I guess that marks some sort of line, crossed by few, doesn't it?
I'm not sure how you could read anything but devious intent into the hypothetical above. Specifically, the implied devious intent of the collector not to return to the store where they ripped off the dealer compared to the (presumed) devious intent of purchasing a 01-s quarter as scrap.
So, in your hypothetical, if you're going to assume devious intent on behalf of the collector, it is only fair to assume devious intent on the part of the dealer, otherwise your transitive ethics equation is imbalanced.
Do you get it now, or have I misunderstood you?
<< <i>More to the point, you sure were assuming devious intent in your hypothetical >>
Actually, that was a sarcastic comment in response to the attitude I see expressed (way too often) that seems to imply that the morality bar should somehow be set higher for dealers than for collectors. Personally, I think it should be set at the same level for everyone.
<< <i>Do you get it now, or have I misunderstood you? >>
I believe you have misunderstood me.
"Specifically, the implied devious intent of the collector not to return to the store where they ripped off the dealer compared to the (presumed) devious intent of purchasing a 01-s quarter as scrap."
There was no implied devious intent on the part of the collector or ripoff of the dealer (as the dealer paid scrap for the coin and was paid scrap by the collector) and there was no devious intent on the part of the dealer, who, for totally undevious reasons, didn't inspect the coin closely when originally purchasing it. Nobody was trying to cheat anybody out of anything.
Let's try this again.
Scenario 1: Dealer pays scrap for a rare coin because he doesn't examine it at the time of purchase, and later recognizes its value.
Scenario 2: Dealer pays scrap for a rare coin because he doesn't examine it at the time of purchase, sells it for scrap, and its value is later recognized by the collector who bought it.
In both cases, the original seller loses out, but in only scenario 1 is the individual who identifies (and gains the benefit) of the value of the "found" coin expected to be responsible for making the seller whole.
That's the best I can do to explain the intent of my original question- does it help or just make things worse?
now soty27 says-----I did recieve the "keets PM special" Thought I would stop by and say hello.
well, soty27 this is the worst aspect of the entire thread, where members who don't really have a point-of-view try to stir things up while i'm the one who's called an attention whore. do us a favor and post the entirety of any PM's i've sent you which were nasty, while at the same time making certain to post your PM to me where you state that you don't think i did anything wrong.
while i did in fact go over the edge a bit in one PM to another member, i would challenge anyone else to post whatever they choose from their PM files where i've done that, being certain to also post their own PM's to me. i'm not worried because that post by bochiman had one objective, only to cast me in a bad way because he doesn't agree with what's happened here. as i've said before in as many woirds, this entire thing has brought out the worst in many of us.
A challenge has been made. Will they put up, or shut up??
<< <i>My cat is eating food right at this moment. >>
What kind of cat? How old?
I'm in the process of adopting a third from the Humane Society.
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<< <i>do us a favor and post the entirety of any PM's i've sent you which were nasty, while at the same time making certain to post your PM to me where you state that you don't think i did anything wrong.
A challenge has been made. Will they put up, or shut up?? >>
Though I am one of those who feels the old man was taken, I must say that keets PM to me was very civil, and simply answered a question I had brought up in a post.
There you go. I have "put up", and I will also try hard to "shut up", because we all have our own opinions, and it doesn't appear that they will change anytime soon
I have two five year old "DSH" kitties. I'm just trying to keep this thread going and doing it in the form of 'tweets' as you would see on twitter.
You see, if it weren't for me, these other folks would stop posting.
Mark
P.S: I guess I owe ksteelheader thanks for helping me improve my spelling because apparently I haven't made any spelling errors in my last several posts on this thread.
<< <i>do us a favor and post the entirety of any PM's i've sent you which were nasty, while at the same time making certain to post your PM to me where you state that you don't think i did anything wrong.
A challenge has been made. Will they put up, or shut up?? >>
Is the challenge to me? While I don't back down from much, as people know, I think. I don't like to go around posting PMs. One of the PMs that I received would have to be somewhat edited due to the swearing that I received in that PM (but, my PM prior to that, that seems to have prompted the swearing, would not have to be edited as I didn't swear).
So, again, is the challenge to me? Does keets really want to keep this going on and on? He said he edited his original thread and posts so it would drop, but it seems he wants it to keep going........
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
enough already... go outside and play children...
FWIW, I guess how I'd approach the hypothetical, is let's say I'm looking through my nice local dealer's pile of silver Barber quarters. Somehow he's gotten some as bullion both from other dealers (several) and two walk-in customers over the last month -- each had Barber material and it's all been mixed together, and looked at in a cursory way, but nothing stood out. So, all went into the same bin, and there's no way to tell what came from who. Right now they are just all stock that my dealer owns.
So with that established, I'm looking through the dates and I see an '01-S. Obviously exciting, and tempting just to pay for it and get the coin for a song, hopefully without the dealer noticing the date. For it is true, my favorite dealer's always said to me "if I miss something in such a deal, and it's to your benefit, more power to you." So here I am, and I am thinking I would approach it two different ways.
If it's a dealer I don't know, and I'm just casually visiting a shop while on vacation in a state I've never been to, I go ahead and complete the purchase and walk out a happy camper, without letting on about what I got (no reason to rub the dealer's nose in it -- and understandably, they'd be upset and perhaps even might claim "hey that got thrown in there by mistake, give it back please" -- which I wouldn't believe, 'cause if the dealer knew they had an '01-S, it would quickly be in a mylar 2x2, I'd think.) But anyway, if the dealer didn't notice it, and really wasn't aware it was in there, then I think I'm within my rights to do so.
Now on the other hand, if this scenario happened with my fave dealer, who always said I should be allowed to keep a coin in such a situation, I would still feel the need to mention it, either before or after making the purchase -- honestly not sure which -- and offering him something. Maybe, agree to sell it and split proceeds with him? Maybe, keep it and give him $1000? (A lot of money for me, yet a bargain compared to coin's actual value.) Anyway, I like him a lot and consider him a friend, so that's what I'd try to do in that case. I kinda hope if it ever does happen to me, it happens in his shop -- he'd get more money out of the deal than just junk silver, maybe I'd be able to keep the coin, or at least make some $$$, but either way it would work out to a great story for both of us, and I would continue to feel welcome there as usual.
Maybe that answers the theoretical, I'm not sure at this point!