Here we go. A favourite of mine. I looked for one of these for a long time until I found this one. The details on the coin are outstanding with a clear Sun's face! The foliage on the ceiba is also quite nice for the grade.
There are two recent books that I think summarise the history of this coin and explain its background in exquisite detail. These are “A Monetary History of Central America” (American Numismatic Society 2018) by Brian Stickney, and “Necessity Coinage of Guatemala, Seventeenth to Nineteenth Centuries” (San Salvador 2001) by Chilean numismatist Roberto Jovel.
A military conflict began when Centran American Republic’s President Manuel Arce removed the Political Chief of Guatemala and appointed a member of the powerful Aycinena family. General Francisco Morazán defeated Arce and finished the conflict by April of 1829. One of the strategies to pay for the military expenses of the conflict was the minting of the one real coin, identical to the one of the Central American Republic, but with a lower fineness. The head of the mint, Mr Benito Muñoz issued a memo (February 16th, 1829) stating that the coin would be 0.750 fine instead of the 0.903 of the CAR coinage (nine vs ten dineros). Muñoz said that 1,577 Marks and 7 ounces of silver, either donated or confiscated by-to the Catholic Church, were melted for the issue. The Guatemalan State Assembly decided that the Church needed to “donate” silver to help the war efforts (January 1828). Muñoz on January 12th stated that the silver donated was not of the fineness required for the coinage. According to Stickney, if all the silver were to be used to strike one real coins 0.903 fine, that would total 107,236 pieces. However, at a fineness of 0.750, that would be 131,066 coins. He states that most were likely never issued. The difference in silver was for the costs of the military expedition and occupation of the city. On April 16, another memo, ordered their suspension and removal of circulation. Very few survivors exist (yet substantially more than what Krause mentions).
Stickney gives the following technical details of the coin:
Obverse: same as other CAR silver coinage, sun to the left of 5 volcanoes. However, the legend reads: ESTADO DE GUATEMALA.
Reverse: Ceiba tree,and the legend: MONEDA PROVISIONAL.
20 mm, 3.38 g, 0.750 silver, 0.250 copper.
For a while, it was believed that was minted in Quetzaltenango but now is agreed it was produced in the City of Guatemala. In fact, neither Jovel, nor Stickney mentioned this origin yet is suggested elsewhere.
Contrary to what the sale's catalogue says, this coin was not minted by an independent Guatemala as in 1829 it was still part of the Central American Republic.
From the sale's catalogue: "Guatemala (State), provisional 1 real, 1829M, very rare, NGC XF 45, ex-Garretson (stated on label). KM-75. 4.29 grams. For this year only, and only in this denomination, the Guatemala City mint struck coins with the legend ESTADO DE GUATEMALA on one side and MONEDA PROVISIONAL on the other, making for a rare type-coin that is critical to any important Guatemala collection (not to mention that it is the first post-Iturbide issue of Guatemala as independent from the Central American Republic but with the same central design as the CAR issues)(sic). This example, with only moderate high-point wear and partially crude rims (as made), toning around details but no luster, is actually among the finest known, a population that surely exceeds the "4 known" stated in KM. Pedigreed to the D.D. Garretson collection. NGC #4703646-006."
Thank you for posting this coin. I have one in Good or so condition. I have had mine for several decades and had never seen another. Admittedly, I had never looked very hard. I never realized it was that scarce. Krause is full of misleading prices, etc. I found these old pictures of it, at least #5.
@cecropiamoth said:
Central America should fit right in!
A NEWP for my World Coins Manufactured at United States Mints set. Colorful PCGS MS65 1934 Panama Balboa --
Jeff
Great theme! Do you have a set listing of the coins that you are after?
Brian,
Michael pretty much hit the nail on the head. And a ton of credit goes to him for working with PCGS to get the set list worked out and registry set energized. It is a monstrous set, 1,090 coins in total. That is why I am working on this primarily as a type set (completion for me at least would be impossible), although I may include multiple dates of some of my favorites...Panama Balboas, Cuba Star and ABC Pesos, etc. @mvs7 might know the approximate number of unique coins in the set (different KM #s)...I'm guessing around 250-300, maybe more. There are many coins, mainly minors and proof set coins that have one or just a few coins in total graded. If you like variety and a tie to the US mints, this set is for you.
Here are several more from the set that fit into the context of this thread (North/Central/South America and Caribbean) and mainly shown to highlight the variety available to collect inside the set. Some of these need a more 'modern' hi-res PCGS image.
@cecropiamoth said:
It is a monstrous set, 1,090 coins in total. That is why I am working on this primarily as a type set (completion for me at least would be impossible), although I may include multiple dates of some of my favorites...Panama Balboas, Cuba Star and ABC Pesos, etc. @mvs7 might know the approximate number of unique coins in the set (different KM #s)...I'm guessing around 250-300, maybe more.
I started working on this set more than a decade ago as a side collection to my main San Francisco Gold Collection. As I get closer to completion, it's been taking up more of my time. By my count, there are 376 distinct types, which includes major design and metal composition changes, but not minor varieties which might have differently assigned KMs. So, still a fairly monstrous set, even as a type set.
One subcategory that spawned separate types is based on the fact that we seemed to make substitute brass coinage for much of Latin America during WWII, for coins that were silver or copper-nickel before and/or after the war. Some examples:
WWII Peruvian 5c, previously copper-nickel
WWII Cuban 1c, previously copper-nickel
WWII Venezuelan 12-1/2c, previously copper-nickel
WWII Nicaraguan 25c, previously silver
The US also made a 1944 Belgian 2 Francs made from leftover 1943 US cent planchets (I know this one is not N/S America, but indulge me) and a 1944 Dominican Republic 5c (previously copper nickel), a one-year type with composition 35% silver, 56% copper, 9% manganese ...sound familiar?)
Great group Michael. In particular the Peruvian brass 5c is gorgeous and those Dominican war nickels are a really tough find...they almost nearly never show up in a nice MS grade despite being a fair number of them in the pop reports.
Thanks for the clarification on the number of distinct types (~376). My estimate of 250-300 was obviously on the very light side. Between PCGS, NGC and raw proof sets I think I stand at 63, so miles and miles to go. The fun will be in the hunt!!
Interesting very small Guatemala silver coin
super die breaks. Die must have been on its last lag...
and to compare it one without DBRs.
Just recently I bought a collection of actually Canadian coins. However, the international, especially South America content in silver is overwhelming and interesting.
If anyone is interested in any, Please PM. I have 3 of these 1/4 Real currently on the bay.
and here without Dbr
To my eye, for a 45, there really is minimal wear and a lot of detail remains!!
Would that toning be considered original, or is that an example of a coin that has re-toned after a dip perhaps many, many decades ago?
Jeff
I think it’s original (biased). With toning coming from the holder. Wishful thinking but I like the coin.
Me too, it is a really, really nice pillar dollar. And yes, I agree as I had temporarily forgot those small, old white ANACS holders imparted that specific kind of toning. Great coin!
It's Thursday morning, the first of the new year. I haven't posted a coin to this thread in a while, so here is my latest acquisition.
Photos courtesy of Heritage, but I didn't buy the coin from them. It was in a Heritage auction, but it was reserved too high and failed to sell. I purchased the coin directly from the owner. He purchased it in 1965 from Fred Baldwin in the UK. Baldwin handled several very high-grade early Mexican Pillar dollars at that time.
Rather than re-invent the wheel, here is what the Heritage cataloguer said about my coin:
Philip V 8 Reales 1733 Mo-MF MS63 Prooflike NGC, Mexico City mint, KM103. Variety with the large crown on the obverse. Choice Mint State with remarkably reflective surfaces and a superbly full strike. Upon close inspection, very minor surface handling evidence appears, mostly on the obverse yet the overall eye-appeal of the coin is truly outstanding. This very rare subtype is key to understand the sequence between the "Mo" and "MX" issues dated 1733 since it features a large crown atop the globes on the obverse, which is similar to that used for the 8 Reales featuring the "MX" mintmark. It is one of the rarest pillar 8 Reales dated 1733 struck at the Mexico City mint. The ex. D. Gray example sold in recent years was only certified VF30 NGC yet still hammered at $12,000 (Stack's Bowers & Ponterio 10/2014, lot 485). The present example is in all likelihood the finest extant of the issue and should thus be considered among the most valuable and significant items in the early series of milled Mexican 8 Reales.
And for reference, here is auction description from the example in the October 2014 Stacks-Bowers sale referenced above (not my coin):
MEXICO. 8 Reales, 1733-MoMF. Philip V (1700-46). NGC VF-30.
KM-103; Cal-type-146#776; Gil-M-8-5d; FC-3b. Large crown, small dot above assayer's letters. Unquestionably the large crown type is one of the RAREST 8 Reales of the entire 1733 series. Very elusive, underrated and somewhat misunderstood as a type. Examination of shipwreck finds supports this. For example, the original sale of coins recovered from the Rooswijk contained 12 of the small crown type, yet one sole example of the large crown. The “large crown” is often to referred to as the “MX” crown as aside from this pillar side die, it is only used on the coinage bearing the “MX” mintmark. It is important to note that this shield side die is also used for the 1733-MXMF with dot, as well as number of 1733-MoMF with dot 8 Reales. It shows a direct link confirming the lineage between the coinage with the MX and Mo mintmarks. A nicely toned original non-shipwreck example that is somewhat conservatively graded.
It is always hard to go after @pruebas but ... A Caballito gem grade with bluish tones. This coin is featured on pages 115, 145 and 156 of the book "Mexican Beauty/Belleza Mexicana" by Allan Schein. This coin has been auctioned by Heritage twice in the past. In 2014 is was catalogued: "The usual "Long ray" variety, Gem Uncirculated and becoming quite difficult to locate in this preservation". In 2005 it was catalogued: "Light toning over full glistening luster. From the William Waste Collection."
LOL. Love these answers. I wasn't trying to stump anyone. I just like buying 100+ year old Mexican silver for a few bucks over melt. What I did in this scenario was to ask if they'd take $20. Got it for $21.
Here she is after a day-long bath in acetone. Very pretty golden color on the cap side with full cartwheel. Subtle gold and blue tone on the reverse with patches of luster. Might be "leather pouch" toning.
We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last. --Severian the Lame
Comments
New cherry pick
@sjcoins, for those of us clueless on Canadian coins, what are we looking at (besides the obvious 1887 cent)?
Two mid-century CuNi 50c patterns:
@pruebas Your patterns never cease to surprise me!
@Abuelo, you should start collecting them. I have plenty of duplicates!
Looks like the 7 over 7 variety... I can see it peeking out at the bottom. Don't know how rare that is relative to the normal 1887 cent, however.
Looks more like 1887/87 no?
Sure... that's fair. We've pretty much exceeded my Canadian coin knowledge at this point.
Happy Thursday!
Here we go. A favourite of mine. I looked for one of these for a long time until I found this one. The details on the coin are outstanding with a clear Sun's face! The foliage on the ceiba is also quite nice for the grade.
There are two recent books that I think summarise the history of this coin and explain its background in exquisite detail. These are “A Monetary History of Central America” (American Numismatic Society 2018) by Brian Stickney, and “Necessity Coinage of Guatemala, Seventeenth to Nineteenth Centuries” (San Salvador 2001) by Chilean numismatist Roberto Jovel.
A military conflict began when Centran American Republic’s President Manuel Arce removed the Political Chief of Guatemala and appointed a member of the powerful Aycinena family. General Francisco Morazán defeated Arce and finished the conflict by April of 1829. One of the strategies to pay for the military expenses of the conflict was the minting of the one real coin, identical to the one of the Central American Republic, but with a lower fineness. The head of the mint, Mr Benito Muñoz issued a memo (February 16th, 1829) stating that the coin would be 0.750 fine instead of the 0.903 of the CAR coinage (nine vs ten dineros). Muñoz said that 1,577 Marks and 7 ounces of silver, either donated or confiscated by-to the Catholic Church, were melted for the issue. The Guatemalan State Assembly decided that the Church needed to “donate” silver to help the war efforts (January 1828). Muñoz on January 12th stated that the silver donated was not of the fineness required for the coinage. According to Stickney, if all the silver were to be used to strike one real coins 0.903 fine, that would total 107,236 pieces. However, at a fineness of 0.750, that would be 131,066 coins. He states that most were likely never issued. The difference in silver was for the costs of the military expedition and occupation of the city. On April 16, another memo, ordered their suspension and removal of circulation. Very few survivors exist (yet substantially more than what Krause mentions).
Stickney gives the following technical details of the coin:
Obverse: same as other CAR silver coinage, sun to the left of 5 volcanoes. However, the legend reads: ESTADO DE GUATEMALA.
Reverse: Ceiba tree,and the legend: MONEDA PROVISIONAL.
20 mm, 3.38 g, 0.750 silver, 0.250 copper.
For a while, it was believed that was minted in Quetzaltenango but now is agreed it was produced in the City of Guatemala. In fact, neither Jovel, nor Stickney mentioned this origin yet is suggested elsewhere.
Contrary to what the sale's catalogue says, this coin was not minted by an independent Guatemala as in 1829 it was still part of the Central American Republic.
From the sale's catalogue: "Guatemala (State), provisional 1 real, 1829M, very rare, NGC XF 45, ex-Garretson (stated on label). KM-75. 4.29 grams. For this year only, and only in this denomination, the Guatemala City mint struck coins with the legend ESTADO DE GUATEMALA on one side and MONEDA PROVISIONAL on the other, making for a rare type-coin that is critical to any important Guatemala collection (not to mention that it is the first post-Iturbide issue of Guatemala as independent from the Central American Republic but with the same central design as the CAR issues)(sic). This example, with only moderate high-point wear and partially crude rims (as made), toning around details but no luster, is actually among the finest known, a population that surely exceeds the "4 known" stated in KM. Pedigreed to the D.D. Garretson collection. NGC #4703646-006."
Thank you for posting this coin. I have one in Good or so condition. I have had mine for several decades and had never seen another. Admittedly, I had never looked very hard. I never realized it was that scarce. Krause is full of misleading prices, etc. I found these old pictures of it, at least #5.
Something different. Happy Thursday everyone!
I missed Thursday by a few minutes, but in following the theme of @Abuelo, here is my 1960 pattern:
As always, very nice @pruebas
Central America should fit right in!
A NEWP for my World Coins Manufactured at United States Mints set. Colorful PCGS MS65 1934 Panama Balboa --
Jeff
I really like the color on that one, Jeff. Nice pick up!
Michael
I have always loved the 30s rendition of this design. Great coin!
$20 cheap thrill from a local shop:
--Severian the Lame
Great theme! Do you have a set listing of the coins that you are after?
Latin American Collection
I know that @cecropiamoth is mainly doing a type set... the full list of coins in the US Foreign series is actually a PCGS set composite: World Coins Manufactured by Mints of the United States. I might have a few of those coins as well
.
Brian,
Michael pretty much hit the nail on the head. And a ton of credit goes to him for working with PCGS to get the set list worked out and registry set energized. It is a monstrous set, 1,090 coins in total. That is why I am working on this primarily as a type set (completion for me at least would be impossible), although I may include multiple dates of some of my favorites...Panama Balboas, Cuba Star and ABC Pesos, etc. @mvs7 might know the approximate number of unique coins in the set (different KM #s)...I'm guessing around 250-300, maybe more. There are many coins, mainly minors and proof set coins that have one or just a few coins in total graded. If you like variety and a tie to the US mints, this set is for you.
Jeff
Here are several more from the set that fit into the context of this thread (North/Central/South America and Caribbean) and mainly shown to highlight the variety available to collect inside the set. Some of these need a more 'modern' hi-res PCGS image.
Jeff
Is there a registry that combines PCGS and NGC slabbed coins ?
I have a bunch of both regards Mexico
and South America
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
You can add both NGC and PCGS slabbed coins to NGC custom sets (i.e. non-competitive).
I started working on this set more than a decade ago as a side collection to my main San Francisco Gold Collection. As I get closer to completion, it's been taking up more of my time. By my count, there are 376 distinct types, which includes major design and metal composition changes, but not minor varieties which might have differently assigned KMs. So, still a fairly monstrous set, even as a type set.
One subcategory that spawned separate types is based on the fact that we seemed to make substitute brass coinage for much of Latin America during WWII, for coins that were silver or copper-nickel before and/or after the war. Some examples:
WWII Peruvian 5c, previously copper-nickel
WWII Cuban 1c, previously copper-nickel
WWII Venezuelan 12-1/2c, previously copper-nickel
WWII Nicaraguan 25c, previously silver
The US also made a 1944 Belgian 2 Francs made from leftover 1943 US cent planchets (I know this one is not N/S America, but indulge me) and a 1944 Dominican Republic 5c (previously copper nickel), a one-year type with composition 35% silver, 56% copper, 9% manganese ...sound familiar?)
Great group Michael. In particular the Peruvian brass 5c is gorgeous and those Dominican war nickels are a really tough find...they almost nearly never show up in a nice MS grade despite being a fair number of them in the pop reports.
Thanks for the clarification on the number of distinct types (~376). My estimate of 250-300 was obviously on the very light side. Between PCGS, NGC and raw proof sets I think I stand at 63, so miles and miles to go. The fun will be in the hunt!!
Jeff
Not the prettiest but a tough issue this nice
Latin American Collection
Interesting very small Guatemala silver coin
super die breaks. Die must have been on its last lag...
and to compare it one without DBRs.
Just recently I bought a collection of actually Canadian coins. However, the international, especially South America content in silver is overwhelming and interesting.
If anyone is interested in any, Please PM. I have 3 of these 1/4 Real currently on the bay.
and here without Dbr
Another melt-ish pickup from a local store:
--Severian the Lame
Early dates Zs. Not bad for melt
Latin American Collection
Pre-1842 Zacatecas eagle is one of my favorites outside of Hooknecks and patterns. One of these days I'll own a fully struck example
8 Reales Madness Collection
Nice pillar dollar @DNADave
To my eye, for a 45, there really is minimal wear and a lot of detail remains!!
Would that toning be considered original, or is that an example of a coin that has re-toned after a dip perhaps many, many decades ago?
Jeff
@DNADave that's a great looking pillar!
8 Reales Madness Collection
I think it’s original (biased). With toning coming from the holder. Wishful thinking but I like the coin.
Me too, it is a really, really nice pillar dollar. And yes, I agree as I had temporarily forgot those small, old white ANACS holders imparted that specific kind of toning. Great coin!
Jeff
Nice pillar and I like the slab it’s in !
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
The only pillar dollar I own.
Decent coin, higher technical grade (which I don't understand). I think the @DNADave coin is more attractive.
Jeff
Happy Thursday everyone!
yet not top pop 
Nice MS67
Still love it!
It's Thursday morning, the first of the new year. I haven't posted a coin to this thread in a while, so here is my latest acquisition.
Photos courtesy of Heritage, but I didn't buy the coin from them. It was in a Heritage auction, but it was reserved too high and failed to sell. I purchased the coin directly from the owner. He purchased it in 1965 from Fred Baldwin in the UK. Baldwin handled several very high-grade early Mexican Pillar dollars at that time.
Rather than re-invent the wheel, here is what the Heritage cataloguer said about my coin:
Philip V 8 Reales 1733 Mo-MF MS63 Prooflike NGC, Mexico City mint, KM103. Variety with the large crown on the obverse. Choice Mint State with remarkably reflective surfaces and a superbly full strike. Upon close inspection, very minor surface handling evidence appears, mostly on the obverse yet the overall eye-appeal of the coin is truly outstanding. This very rare subtype is key to understand the sequence between the "Mo" and "MX" issues dated 1733 since it features a large crown atop the globes on the obverse, which is similar to that used for the 8 Reales featuring the "MX" mintmark. It is one of the rarest pillar 8 Reales dated 1733 struck at the Mexico City mint. The ex. D. Gray example sold in recent years was only certified VF30 NGC yet still hammered at $12,000 (Stack's Bowers & Ponterio 10/2014, lot 485). The present example is in all likelihood the finest extant of the issue and should thus be considered among the most valuable and significant items in the early series of milled Mexican 8 Reales.
And for reference, here is auction description from the example in the October 2014 Stacks-Bowers sale referenced above (not my coin):
MEXICO. 8 Reales, 1733-MoMF. Philip V (1700-46). NGC VF-30.
KM-103; Cal-type-146#776; Gil-M-8-5d; FC-3b. Large crown, small dot above assayer's letters. Unquestionably the large crown type is one of the RAREST 8 Reales of the entire 1733 series. Very elusive, underrated and somewhat misunderstood as a type. Examination of shipwreck finds supports this. For example, the original sale of coins recovered from the Rooswijk contained 12 of the small crown type, yet one sole example of the large crown. The “large crown” is often to referred to as the “MX” crown as aside from this pillar side die, it is only used on the coinage bearing the “MX” mintmark. It is important to note that this shield side die is also used for the 1733-MXMF with dot, as well as number of 1733-MoMF with dot 8 Reales. It shows a direct link confirming the lineage between the coinage with the MX and Mo mintmarks. A nicely toned original non-shipwreck example that is somewhat conservatively graded.
@pruebas That's a special coin - congrats!
8 Reales Madness Collection
Awesome coin @pruebas
Latin American Collection
Wowee !
Way to go in pursuing that coin .
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
It is always hard to go after @pruebas but ... A Caballito gem grade with bluish tones. This coin is featured on pages 115, 145 and 156 of the book "Mexican Beauty/Belleza Mexicana" by Allan Schein. This coin has been auctioned by Heritage twice in the past. In 2014 is was catalogued: "The usual "Long ray" variety, Gem Uncirculated and becoming quite difficult to locate in this preservation". In 2005 it was catalogued: "Light toning over full glistening luster. From the William Waste Collection."
Happy Thursday everyone!
You see this in the display case. What's your reaction?
--Severian the Lame
What is wrong with reverse? Maybe try to get for $20.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
Me too!
? I don’t get it
Latin American Collection
LOL. Love these answers. I wasn't trying to stump anyone. I just like buying 100+ year old Mexican silver for a few bucks over melt. What I did in this scenario was to ask if they'd take $20. Got it for $21.
Here she is after a day-long bath in acetone. Very pretty golden color on the cap side with full cartwheel. Subtle gold and blue tone on the reverse with patches of luster. Might be "leather pouch" toning.
--Severian the Lame