<< <i>If anyone trimmed this Babe, they had the world's sharpest x-acto knife and had the world's steadiest hand and took off an amount of less than 5 nanometers. >>
They have laser cuters and I think there is a really good one that uses a super thin wire. They are for very fine trimming and cutting. Some known sellers have been able to trim the seemingly most impossible cards like 1994 SP Arod, 93 SP Jeters, 01 Bowman Chrome Pujols, etc. They do it to such a fraction the card still meets the minimum card size. Also all those nice cards you saw in GAI holders, like many others have said, were in there for a reason. >>
I know this is a PSA sponsored board, but do you really think PSA graders are so much better than anyone else's that they can actually spot every trim? Also, do you think every trim they identify is really a trim job? Again, if they trimmed so little off of the card as you claim can be done, then what kind of defect could they actually be correcting? The card would have been in outstanding condition to start with as evidenced by the condition of the rest of the card. What kind of defect could have been on the right edge that would have made it worth the effort to risk total destruction of the card? Trimming is risky. What would be the purpose of shaving 5 nanometers off of one edge? If there was a defect there, it could not have been major or they would have needed to remove a large amount and the measurements would not be so consistent with the "official" measurements of the set.
Am I making any sense? Why would you risk destroying a $3000 Ruth by removing a minor flaw that turned it into $3300 Ruth? If you were going to all of this trouble, why would you not go all the way and make the corners perfectly sharp? There's just too much risk and not enough reward for someone to have tampered with it.
<< <i>PSA will tell you if a card has been rejected due to trimming in a crossover. I tried to get a 1994 Alex Rodriguez Gold Signature BGS 8.5 crossed over with a 9 minimum grade, and it was rejected due to evidence of trimming.
I am 99% sure your GAI Ruth wasn't rejected because of trimming - or any alteration for that matter. Maybe PSA is biased towards GAI, but that card looks fine to me. >>
Their customer service guy (Noah) said that they would not tell you on a crossover if it had evidence of tampering. Of course you can probably call 5 different customer service people and get 5 different answers.
Again, the only flaw I know of that might automatically knock it down into the 3's or lower would be the loss of 3 ink drops on one of the letters on the reverse as I mentioned earlier. I still can't find anything saying that a small amount of ink loss is an automatic drop to a 3 or 2.
You are getting waaaay too defensive here. Nobody is attacking you here. You asked why your card did not cross and the consensus says it was trimmed. If you do not want to accept that, that is ok. It is your card and you paid for it, you really paid for it, but I think you learned a good lesson. You can do a few things now: 1. Keep donating $90 a submission to PSA to reject your crossover. 2. Crack the card out and try to submit, this would be a HUGE risk as it will likely come back with a reject sticker. 3. Have the card slabbed by PSA as Altered. 4. Try to get your money back from the guy who broke this card off in you, i mean sold it to you. 5. Put the card back in your display case and forget that all of this happened. 6. Sell the card on ebay and let some other fisherman spend his $90 to have PSA reject it.
No matter which you go with I think you learned a lot.
<< <i>5. Put the card back in your display case and forget that all of this happened. 6. Sell the card on ebay and let some other fisherman spend his $90 to have PSA reject it.
No matter which you go with I think you learned a lot. >>
Option 5 is my likely choice. Although if I decided to sell it I would not have one bit of a guilty conscience because I honestly do not think the card has been altered. I also don't think GAI is as bad as everyone on this board claims. Of course I know this is a PSA board so it's going to be biased. GAI was founded by one of the same founders of PSA. A lot of more neutral people I have talked to think of GAI as a reputable card grader.
Why don't you try SGC or BVG? I also think PSA is biased towards GAI. A long time ago when the crossover service started I sent in a few 1960's GAI 8 with a min of a PSA 8. They all got rejected. I cracked and submitted, they all got a PSA 8.
I haven't used the crossover service since, so I don't know if anything has changed.
Over the last 5 years, A LOT of GAI slabbed cards (mostly crackouts) have been rejected by PSA due to trimming, and a lot of resealed packs have made their way into GAI holders. That's why GAI slabbed cards generally sell for far less than their PSA counterparts.
As for the Ruth, no one can tell from the scan whether it has been altered. That's not to say it has or it hasn't, but we can't tell from the scan. There's just not enough visual evidence to tell either way, and there really isn't enough just by looking at the card in the slab. One would need to take a loupe and look straight down on the edges for inconsistencies in order to determine whether it has been trimmed or not. Also, it stands to reason that PSA would play it safe regarding cross-overs, because once they crack the GAI slab, they can't put it back. If they deem there's an even miniscule chance the card is trimmed, they won't crack it. They're not going to crack it just to look at the edges and then send it back to you raw, and they certainly aren't going to slab a card they think is trimmed. So if anything's even the slightest bit off about the card, they'll just reject it and you wasted your money. That's why people here always recommend that you crack and submit instead of crossing over in the holder. Obviously in this case, that's a huge gamble that you probably shouldn't take.
In this particular case, there aren't a whole lot of moves left. My guess is that you're going to get about $2300-$2500 for your 4.5, which is around where you can pick a PSA 4 up for. So if you've got your heart set on a PSA 4, that might be the way to go.
CDsNuts, your comments make sense. I've also thought of the possibility that the grader was just strict and thought the corners were too soft to be above a 3.5. They probably are conservative about taking a chance at cracking the card out. The card is for my personal enjoyment and I am now convinced in my mind that the card is unaltered (that's been my only fear). If PSA simply says it's untampered buy just doesn't meet their standards for the minimum grade, then I have no problem with that. All that means is I wouldn't get as much if I resold it. I have no plans for selling it though. I also wanted to have it in a PSA slab to match the other cards in my display case but I also didn't want to leave the grading wide open in case PSA slabbed it as a 2. I'm sure a GAI 4.5 still goes for more than a PSA 2.
When it returns, I will post up some HQ scans and try to get the card in the center of the holder so that the black plastic in the holder doesn't distort the view.
<< <i> In this particular case, there aren't a whole lot of moves left. My guess is that you're going to get about $2300-$2500 for your 4.5, which is around where you can pick a PSA 4 up for. So if you've got your heart set on a PSA 4, that might be the way to go. >>
The irony is that I could have purchased on two occasions a PSA 5 version of this same card for about the same price that eventually I paid but I selected the GAI 4.5 because it was in noticeably better condition than the PSA 5's. I spent a lot of time shopping for this card which is why I really thought I selected the right one for me.
When you get it back, scan it in as high of resolution as you have, open it with paint so the card is huge on your screen. You should be able to see immediately if it's been cut, just by looking at the edges. The nicest card will still have an imperfect edge under high resolution. With a trimmed card the edge will be sharper/straighter and at high enough resolution you can even see the indentation from the pressure of the exacto knife along the cut.
If you don't see any trimming or other alterations then I would definitely send it to SGC. A lot of people believe that prewar cards are worth more in SGC holders anyway.
<< <i>If you don't see any trimming or other alterations then I would definitely send it to SGC. A lot of people believe that prewar cards are worth more in SGC holders anyway. >>
Jim, I might do that. SGC has by far the best looking slabs. I looked into it one time and I changed my mind because the maximum value SGC accepts for a crossover is $500. That means I could only declare my $3300 card as worth $500. I know that through the postal service I can get as much insurance as I want and I also have my entire collection insured through CIS. I'm just not clear as to what happens if it's damaged by SGC. Obviously, the highest risk is when it's in their hands and they try to crack it out of it's current slab. SGC would only pay me $500 for damage. I don't know if my insurance policy picks up the difference. I need to get my policy out and read it. Maybe I'll call the insurance company tomorrow and ask them.
SGC is a good choice, and if you do crossover without cracking it out, dont put a "minimum grade".
PS All this trim talk is BS IMO, if the card was trimmed it would have sharp corners, thats the whole point of trimming a card to make the corners look MINT. wake up
SGC is a good choice, and if you do crossover without cracking it out, dont put a "minimum grade".
PS All this trim talk is BS IMO, if the card was trimmed it would have sharp corners, thats the whole point of trimming a card to make the corners look MINT. wake up >>
That's what I've said. If someone altered it, I don't know what kind of defect they would have removed.
<< <i>I would like to know two things - unless I missed them previously...
When you sent it in for a minimum grade 5 what was the outcome (or what did the line read from PSA)...
and can you really tell from looking at just the holder if a card has been trimmed?
thanks in advance... >>
When I sent it in for a 5, the line from the PSA website simply said "MG". I didn't know what that meant either. I thought it could have meant "Met Grade" or "Missed Grade". When I called them they informed me that my card did not meet the minimum grade. This time on the website it says "MG: Minimum Grade". I thought at first it meant that the card received the minimum grade but I was puzzled because it did not show up on the registry. PSA really needs to word it better to make things more clear. Why would it say "Minimum Grade" even though it did NOT meet the minimum grade? I did make a phone call to customer service to ask them to clarify. I also asked them today if a card showed signs of being altered would it be noted anywhere and the customer service rep said it would not be noted. However, other people have said they sent cards for crossovers and WERE informed of it.
As for being able to tell if it's been trimmed looking at it in a slab, I would say that it is possible to detect. You can hold them at an angle and still get a clear view of the edges.
It says MG in lieu of a numerical grade. This means that instead of getting graded, it did not meet the minimum grade you designated.
I've had about a dozen GAI graded cards rejected when submitted for crossover. All graded when cracked out and submitted raw. Perhaps they just find it hard to properly see the card in the holder, and are erring on the side of caution.
I have heard cases of cards submitted to grading companies in the holder that did meet the minimum grade, but when cracked out a flaw was revealed that rendered the card ungradeable.
I would echo the suggestions above- either submit it to SGC and then when (and if) they grade it cross it over to PSA, or crack it and submit it raw to PSA.
If you were buying a used BMW would you ask the Mercedes dealer to certify it?
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>You are getting waaaay too defensive here. Nobody is attacking you here. You asked why your card did not cross and the consensus says it was trimmed. If you do not want to accept that, that is ok. It is your card and you paid for it, you really paid for it, but I think you learned a good lesson. You can do a few things now: 1. Keep donating $90 a submission to PSA to reject your crossover. 2. Crack the card out and try to submit, this would be a HUGE risk as it will likely come back with a reject sticker. 3. Have the card slabbed by PSA as Altered. 4. Try to get your money back from the guy who broke this card off in you, i mean sold it to you. 5. Put the card back in your display case and forget that all of this happened. 6. Sell the card on ebay and let some other fisherman spend his $90 to have PSA reject it.
No matter which you go with I think you learned a lot. >>
These are pretty much my thoughts. ^^^^
The holder is not creating an illusion for me, because I am not using the edge of the GAI holder as a guide to compare that right edge to. I am looking at the lower right corner and how the edge does an unnatural taper inward, and the edge of the card is clearly wavy, not to mention how funky that bottom right corner looks. It's too sharp for a card that has a worn corner. Compare how sharp the point is on that lower right corner, to the left lower corner. Both have the same amount of wear, but the right one comes to an arrow point at the very tip. Now why and how is that? It should have the slight natural rounding at the tip, just like the left side displays, unless that edge was shaved/trimmed/beveled.
You ask why would they trim something off that side? Who knows the exact reason, but why do people trim cards in general? To clean them up in hopes of better grades to make more money$$$$. It's all about money, and that is exactly why trimming occurs. According to some experts I have heard speak on this issue, the big time trimmers do not use an exacto knife or the sorts. There are little rotary tools and stuff that can literally shave a hair's length off of a card. There was a guy in St Louis back in 2002 that got caught trimming down the Player's Ink Tiger Woods autos, so that he could receive back BGS 9.5's and 10 Pristines. Word is, he was using a laser type device to trim those cards down, and got them by the BGS graders. Point being, there are many trimmers out there, and they all have a different system that they use. Some trimmers are better than others I guess, and that is what they can get stuff past the graders. The whole thing is sickening to me, as it leaves guys in the position your are in right now.
GAI IS as bad as most of us say, and yes, PSA and SGC are far better in preventing trimmed cards from being holdered. Anyone who has enough hobby knowledge to own a Ruth Goudey will not allow GAI to slab it, unless PSA or SGC first denied it. That much is pretty obvious. GAI is the place where alot of higher end vintage doctored cards go to rest, in most cases. If GAI rejects them, then they go down the ladder to GEM or PRO.
Mark my word, your Goudey Ruth is in that GAI holder for a reason, and after 2 submissions to PSA, should just make you have to admit that to yourself. Stop making excuses or being in denial, my friend. I hate to talk this way, but I am only trying to be honest with you.
It's a shame your are left in a situation like this, but if nothing else, you got a $3000 lesson about our hobby. I am sure many, if not all of us, have learned about the card business from making mistakes, at one point in time or another, too.
Steve, when GAI first started, sure, some people gave them a chance, but anyone with hobby knowledge was not sending their Goudey Ruth cards to GAI. Even back then, it was not happening, unless something was not getting through PSA or SGC. GAI always has been the third or fourth option for vintage(debate between them and BGS).
When GAI first came out of the gates, they slabbed alot of newer material, and I am willing to say that over 65% of the vintage they did grade, was stuff that PSA and SGC denied.
I have been wrong about plenty of things in my life, but I highly doubt I am wrong on this one, though. I can clearly see something wrong with the right side of the card, and we have a two time rejection from PSA as further evidence as to something not being right with the card.
^^Please look inside the red circles, and compare^^
So far, what we KNOW "we have" is a rejection of the card at the minimum-grade requested by the OP. >>
<< <i> Their customer service guy (Noah) said that they would not tell you on a crossover if it had evidence of tampering. Of course you can probably call 5 different customer service people and get 5 different answers. >>
<< <i> I have been wrong about plenty of things in my life, but I highly doubt I am wrong on this one, though. I can clearly see something wrong with the right side of the card, and we have a two time rejection from PSA as further evidence as to something not being right with the card. >>
Ok, let me get this straight... are you saying that you think there may be a problem with the??? Oh ya, I think you said the right side... is that correct? Something to do with trimming?
Would you be so kind as to repeat yourself just one more f'ing time??? It would be much appreciated.
<< <i> I have been wrong about plenty of things in my life, but I highly doubt I am wrong on this one, though. I can clearly see something wrong with the right side of the card, and we have a two time rejection from PSA as further evidence as to something not being right with the card. >>
Ok, let me get this straight... are you saying that you think there may be a problem with the??? Oh ya, I think you said the right side... is that correct? Something to do with trimming?
Would you be so kind as to repeat yourself just one more f'ing time??? It would be much appreciated. >>
Is this neccesary? We are debating the card, not trolling for a fight. Please, if you just want to come after me personally, find something else to do. Thanks.
Nightcrawler, please, find another thread, if you can't handle the debating of the card. None of us have had to do personal attacks, and have been doing just fine with this thread without your mouth. I gladly welcome your input about the card, but not the childish personal attacks.
I repeat. I repeat. Don't send in high priced cards in GAI holders. They are absolutely biased. Folks, if GAI cards were that bad then everyone should drop the whole graded card thing. The guys who initially started grading at GAI basically ran PSA at one time. Does anyone remember this. When you send in high priced GAI cards for crossover you are donating your money to the we are biased against this company's cards fund. Someone also said"who would send Ruth's and other high priced cards to GAI"--at one time alot of us did including almost every PSA dealer.
StanTheManMusial, you steadfastly insist that the card has been trimmed. I don't think you were debating anything, just trying to prove what can't be proven. Impossible.
My heart goes out to plifter, and I really don't agree with your argument nor do I think it should be pursued. It's completely negative and until anything can be proved for real, it's not neccesary. Give the guy a break.
And I apologize for the personel attack, but you are attacking the pride and joy of this collector with no real evidence to support your opinion, except a distorted scan.
And editing your post to say you'll ignore me from now on, only proves you to be a sucky little baby.
EDIT TO ADD: "Stop making excuses or being in denial, my friend. I hate to talk this way, but I am only trying to be honest with you."
<< <i>Steve, when GAI first started, sure, some people gave them a chance, but anyone with hobby knowledge was not sending their Goudey Ruth cards to GAI. Even back then, it was not happening, unless something was not getting through PSA or SGC. GAI always has been the third or fourth option for vintage(debate between them and BGS).
When GAI first came out of the gates, they slabbed alot of newer material, and I am willing to say that over 65% of the vintage they did grade, was stuff that PSA and SGC denied.
I have been wrong about plenty of things in my life, but I highly doubt I am wrong on this one, though. I can clearly see something wrong with the right side of the card, and we have a two time rejection from PSA as further evidence as to something not being right with the card.
^^Please look inside the red circles, and compare^^ >>
If you blow the scan up it looks like the red is printed into the white border on the right side and not into the white border on the left side, making the white border look thinner on the right side like it was trimmed. The card is also tilted a few degrees in the holder.
It might be trimmed but by that scan I don't think anybody can say it's positively trimmed.
^^Please look inside the red circles, and compare^^ >>
OK, I've had it. I'm not in denial of anything. I don't see one freakin difference between the right and left corners. If it was trimmed they sure did a poor job of it considering all 4 corners show wear.
Next you're probably going to tell me my Upper Deck Authenticated Mickey Mantle autographed ball is a forgery.
Look PSA graded the Wagner a PSA 8 When we all no there is a big ? about that card so if they blow a big card you can just imagine all the little fishes that get by. Grading is a lot of BS it is just guess work.
Calm down again. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt then take your Ruth and go home. You posted the scan here and many have told you there stories and there lessons learned. As for your total lack of understanding of trimming and what it can accomplish, it is not just done to alter corners. A cut the size of a hair can make an edge look razor sharp. I have also considered the posibility that you accidently trimmed the card with your knife and scissors, a la 1975 Topps Minis, as I imagine it could have taken you a long time to open this one if it was received in the mail, overpackaged ofcourse. The funny thing is you could have bought a counterfeit on ebay for $500 and suffered less of a loss than you did with this card. Good luck with what ever you decide to do.
<< <i>Calm down again. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt then take your Ruth and go home. You posted the scan here and many have told you there stories and there lessons learned. As for your total lack of understanding of trimming and what it can accomplish, it is not just done to alter corners. A cut the size of a hair can make an edge look razor sharp. I have also considered the posibility that you accidently trimmed the card with your knife and scissors, a la 1975 Topps Minis, as I imagine it could have taken you a long time to open this one if it was received in the mail, overpackaged ofcourse. The funny thing is you could have bought a counterfeit on ebay for $500 and suffered less of a loss than you did with this card. Good luck with what ever you decide to do. >>
/////////////////////////////////
Damn Allen.....you must keep notes on all the garbage that is discussed here! I had to scroll back threads and find the one with the 1975 mini's. Once again I have to agree with Allen. It might be best to not bring issues up if you don't have a thick skin to the feedback.
Well, we can make jokes and say what ever, but I would not touch the card, not even at a PSA 3 price range, and I highly doubt anyone else making comments in this thread would either.
I am not looking at the thin border, due to the red hanging over a bit more on the lower right side. I am looking at how the lower right edge of the card clearly has a dip inward towards the corner. McGwireMuseum noted it as well, and even showed his pics to prove it, too.
Maybe a 3rd time having PSA look at it will change things? Maybe SGC will not see the wavy lower right edge? I don't know..
Plifter, you put your card on display and wanting comments on the situation your are involved in right now. Allen, McGwireMuseum and myself gave opinions that may not be what you wanted to hear. With that being said, do what you want with the card, and think what you want. It's not my $3300 sitting on a card that will not cross over, so I guess I can understand your desperation and frustration on this matter. Nothing personal towards you, but I see an issue with the card, and PSA seen an issue with the card, to not cross it over at the grade your want. I regret you have $3300 tied up in this card, as I would probably be sick and defensive, too.
I've obviously been thinking about this a lot. It actually makes perfect sense from a business standpoint. I've heard so many people say that their attempts to crossover from other companies have been rejected. In fact, I rarely hear about a successful crossover. If you continually deny crossovers even when the card obviously meets the grade, it makes people think that their cards are trimmed or tampered with just like I did originally. That makes it look like PSA graders are superior to any other company. Therefore, all of the customers flock to PSA and PSA graded cards become more valuable than any other company meaning more profits. Therefore PSA becomes the king of the business by rejecting selected cards. Upon looking at my Ruth card, I'm convinced that nobody can see anything that positively proves that it has been altered.
I've heard a lot more stories on this board from people that have had their crossovers rejected, then cracked them out and sent them in raw and got them slabbed with the same grade they had listed on their crossover. That's why PSA offers no explanation of the grade. Think about it, why wouldn't they offer a short explanation for high end cards that they charge $100 to grade? A hundred bucks should buy an explanation of their grade. I'm losing confidence in the entire card grading business.
Has anyone on this board ever known anyone that's worked for PSA as a grader and quit? I've never heard anything from former employees about what goes on behind the scenes. They probably make their employees sign non-disclosure contracts upon hiring and none of them are allowed to talk about what goes on for fear of being sued. My company requires all workers to sign such a contract before being officially hired.
<< <i>Calm down again. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt then take your Ruth and go home. You posted the scan here and many have told you there stories and there lessons learned. As for your total lack of understanding of trimming and what it can accomplish, it is not just done to alter corners. A cut the size of a hair can make an edge look razor sharp. I have also considered the posibility that you accidently trimmed the card with your knife and scissors, a la 1975 Topps Minis, as I imagine it could have taken you a long time to open this one if it was received in the mail, overpackaged ofcourse. The funny thing is you could have bought a counterfeit on ebay for $500 and suffered less of a loss than you did with this card. Good luck with what ever you decide to do. >>
This is coming from a guy that sends his customer's package with postage due......
here is a possible solution. keep in mind that i am in no way attacking you. i am just being direct with you. anyway, the bottom right corner of the card looks trimmed. now we know that recently gai has been trying to get their act together and restore collector's faith in their company. so i would contact them stating you think the ruth is trimmed and ask them to buy it back from you at the price you paid. even though i dont think they put their $ where their mouth is, there is an off chance that they may take this opportunity to try to restore the faith which was lost by collector's in them up to this point. i think its worth a shot. just my 2 cents.
<< <i>I've obviously been thinking about this a lot. It actually makes perfect sense from a business standpoint. I've heard so many people say that their attempts to crossover from other companies have been rejected. In fact, I rarely hear about a successful crossover. If you continually deny crossovers even when the card obviously meets the grade, it makes people think that their cards are trimmed or tampered with just like I did originally. That makes it look like PSA graders are superior to any other company. Therefore, all of the customers flock to PSA and PSA graded cards become more valuable than any other company meaning more profits. Therefore PSA becomes the king of the business by rejecting selected cards. Upon looking at my Ruth card, I'm convinced that nobody can see anything that positively proves that it has been altered.
I've heard a lot more stories on this board from people that have had their crossovers rejected, then cracked them out and sent them in raw and got them slabbed with the same grade they had listed on their crossover. That's why PSA offers no explanation of the grade. Think about it, why wouldn't they offer a short explanation for high end cards that they charge $100 to grade? A hundred bucks should buy an explanation of their grade. I'm losing confidence in the entire card grading business.
Has anyone on this board ever known anyone that's worked for PSA as a grader and quit? I've never heard anything from former employees about what goes on behind the scenes. They probably make their employees sign non-disclosure contracts upon hiring and none of them are allowed to talk about what goes on for fear of being sued. My company requires all workers to sign such a contract before being officially hired. >>
Now, it's a PSA conspiracy against all other grading companies?
Yes, all grading companies have flaws at one time or another. If you had 100% confidence in grading, sadly, I hate to break it to you, it has it's weak and strong points. Like anything in life where money is involved, it can lead to some questionable acts.
On a side note, if your Ruth card was legit, why would PSA not want it in their holder? See, that way, the more 1933 Ruth Goudeys in PSA holders, only help promote their business in an even higher platform, than what your conspiracy theory presents. Your conspiracy does not hold water, plifter.
f you blow the scan up it looks like the red is printed into the white border on the right side and not into the white border on the left side, making the white border look thinner on the right side like it was trimmed. The card is also tilted a few degrees in the holder.
It might be trimmed but by that scan I don't think anybody can say it's positively trimmed
<< <i>Now, it's a PSA conspiracy against all other grading companies? >>
Actually, many people have said PSA has it in for GAI cards on this board, some of them even in this thread. I'd really like to know how people who have only looked at a scan of the front of the card (none of you have even seen the back!) are saying with 100% certainty that my $3300 treasure has been tampered with.
As for Allen, he's a [censored] that has to get personal with his insults yet again. Insult my card all you want but it's downright rude to start with personal insults. If he ever saw me in person I have strong doubts that he would hurl personal insults at me. My screen name stands for powerlifter. I play with 500 pound barbells in my spare time. I hate to boast about it on a message board but he really rubs me the wrong way. Does this board have an "ignore" feature so that I can block his garbage?
Plifter, I don't think we need to get to playing tough guy, here. Violence solves nothing in an arguement/debate. I don't have anything personal against you or Allen, just for the record.
Will you please answer my question, that is in bold type, above? I am curious to hear what you have to say as to why PSA would not want to holder your card. They have everything to lose in the way of PSA name brand promotion, if it was legit. Why would they not want a nice Goudey Ruth in their holder, instead of a GAI slab?? Makes no sense, unless the card has an issue that might make PSA look bad by holdering it.
Comments
<< <i>
<< <i>If anyone trimmed this Babe, they had the world's sharpest x-acto knife and had the world's steadiest hand and took off an amount of less than 5 nanometers. >>
They have laser cuters and I think there is a really good one that uses a super thin wire. They are for very fine trimming and cutting. Some known sellers have been able to trim the seemingly most impossible cards like 1994 SP Arod, 93 SP Jeters, 01 Bowman Chrome Pujols, etc. They do it to such a fraction the card still meets the minimum card size. Also all those nice cards you saw in GAI holders, like many others have said, were in there for a reason. >>
I know this is a PSA sponsored board, but do you really think PSA graders are so much better than anyone else's that they can actually spot every trim? Also, do you think every trim they identify is really a trim job? Again, if they trimmed so little off of the card as you claim can be done, then what kind of defect could they actually be correcting? The card would have been in outstanding condition to start with as evidenced by the condition of the rest of the card. What kind of defect could have been on the right edge that would have made it worth the effort to risk total destruction of the card? Trimming is risky. What would be the purpose of shaving 5 nanometers off of one edge? If there was a defect there, it could not have been major or they would have needed to remove a large amount and the measurements would not be so consistent with the "official" measurements of the set.
Am I making any sense? Why would you risk destroying a $3000 Ruth by removing a minor flaw that turned it into $3300 Ruth? If you were going to all of this trouble, why would you not go all the way and make the corners perfectly sharp? There's just too much risk and not enough reward for someone to have tampered with it.
Be patient, he will get back to you, he always does.
Steve
<< <i>PSA will tell you if a card has been rejected due to trimming in a crossover. I tried to get a 1994 Alex Rodriguez Gold Signature BGS 8.5 crossed over with a 9 minimum grade, and it was rejected due to evidence of trimming.
I am 99% sure your GAI Ruth wasn't rejected because of trimming - or any alteration for that matter. Maybe PSA is biased towards GAI, but that card looks fine to me. >>
Their customer service guy (Noah) said that they would not tell you on a crossover if it had evidence of tampering. Of course you can probably call 5 different customer service people and get 5 different answers.
1. Keep donating $90 a submission to PSA to reject your crossover.
2. Crack the card out and try to submit, this would be a HUGE risk as it will likely come back with a reject sticker.
3. Have the card slabbed by PSA as Altered.
4. Try to get your money back from the guy who broke this card off in you, i mean sold it to you.
5. Put the card back in your display case and forget that all of this happened.
6. Sell the card on ebay and let some other fisherman spend his $90 to have PSA reject it.
No matter which you go with I think you learned a lot.
<< <i>5. Put the card back in your display case and forget that all of this happened.
6. Sell the card on ebay and let some other fisherman spend his $90 to have PSA reject it.
No matter which you go with I think you learned a lot. >>
Option 5 is my likely choice. Although if I decided to sell it I would not have one bit of a guilty conscience because I honestly do not think the card has been altered. I also don't think GAI is as bad as everyone on this board claims. Of course I know this is a PSA board so it's going to be biased. GAI was founded by one of the same founders of PSA. A lot of more neutral people I have talked to think of GAI as a reputable card grader.
I haven't used the crossover service since, so I don't know if anything has changed.
As for the Ruth, no one can tell from the scan whether it has been altered. That's not to say it has or it hasn't, but we can't tell from the scan. There's just not enough visual evidence to tell either way, and there really isn't enough just by looking at the card in the slab. One would need to take a loupe and look straight down on the edges for inconsistencies in order to determine whether it has been trimmed or not. Also, it stands to reason that PSA would play it safe regarding cross-overs, because once they crack the GAI slab, they can't put it back. If they deem there's an even miniscule chance the card is trimmed, they won't crack it. They're not going to crack it just to look at the edges and then send it back to you raw, and they certainly aren't going to slab a card they think is trimmed. So if anything's even the slightest bit off about the card, they'll just reject it and you wasted your money. That's why people here always recommend that you crack and submit instead of crossing over in the holder. Obviously in this case, that's a huge gamble that you probably shouldn't take.
In this particular case, there aren't a whole lot of moves left. My guess is that you're going to get about $2300-$2500 for your 4.5, which is around where you can pick a PSA 4 up for. So if you've got your heart set on a PSA 4, that might be the way to go.
When it returns, I will post up some HQ scans and try to get the card in the center of the holder so that the black plastic in the holder doesn't distort the view.
If it was me I'd send it in the slab to SGC and see what they say.
Steve
<< <i>
In this particular case, there aren't a whole lot of moves left. My guess is that you're going to get about $2300-$2500 for your 4.5, which is around where you can pick a PSA 4 up for. So if you've got your heart set on a PSA 4, that might be the way to go. >>
The irony is that I could have purchased on two occasions a PSA 5 version of this same card for about the same price that eventually I paid but I selected the GAI 4.5 because it was in noticeably better condition than the PSA 5's. I spent a lot of time shopping for this card which is why I really thought I selected the right one for me.
If you don't see any trimming or other alterations then I would definitely send it to SGC. A lot of people believe that prewar cards are worth more in SGC holders anyway.
<< <i>If you don't see any trimming or other alterations then I would definitely send it to SGC. A lot of people believe that prewar cards are worth more in SGC holders anyway. >>
Jim, I might do that. SGC has by far the best looking slabs. I looked into it one time and I changed my mind because the maximum value SGC accepts for a crossover is $500. That means I could only declare my $3300 card as worth $500. I know that through the postal service I can get as much insurance as I want and I also have my entire collection insured through CIS. I'm just not clear as to what happens if it's damaged by SGC. Obviously, the highest risk is when it's in their hands and they try to crack it out of it's current slab. SGC would only pay me $500 for damage. I don't know if my insurance policy picks up the difference. I need to get my policy out and read it. Maybe I'll call the insurance company tomorrow and ask them.
Never crossover a GAI slab
SGC is a good choice, and if you do crossover without cracking it out, dont put a "minimum grade".
PS All this trim talk is BS IMO, if the card was trimmed it would have sharp corners, thats the whole point of trimming a card to make the corners look MINT. wake up
<< <i>Crack it out!!!!!!!!
Never crossover a GAI slab
SGC is a good choice, and if you do crossover without cracking it out, dont put a "minimum grade".
PS All this trim talk is BS IMO, if the card was trimmed it would have sharp corners, thats the whole point of trimming a card to make the corners look MINT. wake up
That's what I've said. If someone altered it, I don't know what kind of defect they would have removed.
When you sent it in for a minimum grade 5 what was the outcome (or what did the line read from PSA)...
and can you really tell from looking at just the holder if a card has been trimmed?
thanks in advance...
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<< <i>I would like to know two things - unless I missed them previously...
When you sent it in for a minimum grade 5 what was the outcome (or what did the line read from PSA)...
and can you really tell from looking at just the holder if a card has been trimmed?
thanks in advance... >>
When I sent it in for a 5, the line from the PSA website simply said "MG". I didn't know what that meant either. I thought it could have meant "Met Grade" or "Missed Grade". When I called them they informed me that my card did not meet the minimum grade. This time on the website it says "MG: Minimum Grade". I thought at first it meant that the card received the minimum grade but I was puzzled because it did not show up on the registry. PSA really needs to word it better to make things more clear. Why would it say "Minimum Grade" even though it did NOT meet the minimum grade? I did make a phone call to customer service to ask them to clarify. I also asked them today if a card showed signs of being altered would it be noted anywhere and the customer service rep said it would not be noted. However, other people have said they sent cards for crossovers and WERE informed of it.
As for being able to tell if it's been trimmed looking at it in a slab, I would say that it is possible to detect. You can hold them at an angle and still get a clear view of the edges.
editted: it is capped at $1,000.00 but I think a phone call can get around that.
I've had about a dozen GAI graded cards rejected when submitted for crossover. All graded when cracked out and submitted raw. Perhaps they just find it hard to properly see the card in the holder, and are erring on the side of caution.
I have heard cases of cards submitted to grading companies in the holder that did meet the minimum grade, but when cracked out a flaw was revealed that rendered the card ungradeable.
I would echo the suggestions above- either submit it to SGC and then when (and if) they grade it cross it over to PSA, or crack it and submit it raw to PSA.
If you were buying a used BMW would you ask the Mercedes dealer to certify it?
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>You are getting waaaay too defensive here. Nobody is attacking you here. You asked why your card did not cross and the consensus says it was trimmed. If you do not want to accept that, that is ok. It is your card and you paid for it, you really paid for it, but I think you learned a good lesson. You can do a few things now:
1. Keep donating $90 a submission to PSA to reject your crossover.
2. Crack the card out and try to submit, this would be a HUGE risk as it will likely come back with a reject sticker.
3. Have the card slabbed by PSA as Altered.
4. Try to get your money back from the guy who broke this card off in you, i mean sold it to you.
5. Put the card back in your display case and forget that all of this happened.
6. Sell the card on ebay and let some other fisherman spend his $90 to have PSA reject it.
No matter which you go with I think you learned a lot. >>
These are pretty much my thoughts. ^^^^
The holder is not creating an illusion for me, because I am not using the edge of the GAI holder as a guide to compare that right edge to. I am looking at the lower right corner and how the edge does an unnatural taper inward, and the edge of the card is clearly wavy, not to mention how funky that bottom right corner looks. It's too sharp for a card that has a worn corner. Compare how sharp the point is on that lower right corner, to the left lower corner. Both have the same amount of wear, but the right one comes to an arrow point at the very tip. Now why and how is that? It should have the slight natural rounding at the tip, just like the left side displays, unless that edge was shaved/trimmed/beveled.
You ask why would they trim something off that side? Who knows the exact reason, but why do people trim cards in general? To clean them up in hopes of better grades to make more money$$$$. It's all about money, and that is exactly why trimming occurs. According to some experts I have heard speak on this issue, the big time trimmers do not use an exacto knife or the sorts. There are little rotary tools and stuff that can literally shave a hair's length off of a card. There was a guy in St Louis back in 2002 that got caught trimming down the Player's Ink Tiger Woods autos, so that he could receive back BGS 9.5's and 10 Pristines. Word is, he was using a laser type device to trim those cards down, and got them by the BGS graders. Point being, there are many trimmers out there, and they all have a different system that they use. Some trimmers are better than others I guess, and that is what they can get stuff past the graders. The whole thing is sickening to me, as it leaves guys in the position your are in right now.
GAI IS as bad as most of us say, and yes, PSA and SGC are far better in preventing trimmed cards from being holdered. Anyone who has enough hobby knowledge to own a Ruth Goudey will not allow GAI to slab it, unless PSA or SGC first denied it. That much is pretty obvious. GAI is the place where alot of higher end vintage doctored cards go to rest, in most cases. If GAI rejects them, then they go down the ladder to GEM or PRO.
Mark my word, your Goudey Ruth is in that GAI holder for a reason, and after 2 submissions to PSA, should just make you have to admit that to yourself. Stop making excuses or being in denial, my friend. I hate to talk this way, but I am only trying to be honest with you.
It's a shame your are left in a situation like this, but if nothing else, you got a $3000 lesson about our hobby. I am sure many, if not all of us, have learned about the card business from making mistakes, at one point in time or another, too.
No one knows for sure if that card has been trimmed, nor why it is in the holder that it is.
Early in GAI history many dealers gave them a chance, and, perhaps this card was graded then.
Your theory is just that theory.
Could you be right? of course you can, yet at the same time you can be dead wrong too.
JMO
Steve
When GAI first came out of the gates, they slabbed alot of newer material, and I am willing to say that over 65% of the vintage they did grade, was stuff that PSA and SGC denied.
I have been wrong about plenty of things in my life, but I highly doubt I am wrong on this one, though. I can clearly see something wrong with the right side of the card, and we have a two time rejection from PSA as further evidence as to something not being right with the card.
^^Please look inside the red circles, and compare^^
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
So far, what we KNOW "we have" is a rejection of the card at the minimum-grade requested by the OP.
Steve
<< <i>"...and we have a two time rejection from PSA as further evidence as to something not being right with the card. ..."
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
So far, what we KNOW "we have" is a rejection of the card at the minimum-grade requested by the OP. >>
<< <i>
Their customer service guy (Noah) said that they would not tell you on a crossover if it had evidence of tampering. Of course you can probably call 5 different customer service people and get 5 different answers. >>
<< <i> I have been wrong about plenty of things in my life, but I highly doubt I am wrong on this one, though. I can clearly see something wrong with the right side of the card, and we have a two time rejection from PSA as further evidence as to something not being right with the card. >>
Ok, let me get this straight... are you saying that you think there may be a problem with the??? Oh ya, I think you said the right side... is that correct? Something to do with trimming?
Would you be so kind as to repeat yourself just one more f'ing time??? It would be much appreciated.
<< <i>
<< <i> I have been wrong about plenty of things in my life, but I highly doubt I am wrong on this one, though. I can clearly see something wrong with the right side of the card, and we have a two time rejection from PSA as further evidence as to something not being right with the card. >>
Ok, let me get this straight... are you saying that you think there may be a problem with the??? Oh ya, I think you said the right side... is that correct? Something to do with trimming?
Would you be so kind as to repeat yourself just one more f'ing time??? It would be much appreciated. >>
Is this neccesary? We are debating the card, not trolling for a fight. Please, if you just want to come after me personally, find something else to do. Thanks.
I think if the card is cracked out of the GAI slab, all will be ok, and I demand everyone agree.
My heart goes out to plifter, and I really don't agree with your argument nor do I think it should be pursued. It's completely negative and until anything can be proved for real, it's not neccesary. Give the guy a break.
And I apologize for the personel attack, but you are attacking the pride and joy of this collector with no real evidence to support your opinion, except a distorted scan.
And editing your post to say you'll ignore me from now on, only proves you to be a sucky little baby.
EDIT TO ADD: "Stop making excuses or being in denial, my friend. I hate to talk this way, but I am only trying to be honest with you."
<< <i>Steve, when GAI first started, sure, some people gave them a chance, but anyone with hobby knowledge was not sending their Goudey Ruth cards to GAI. Even back then, it was not happening, unless something was not getting through PSA or SGC. GAI always has been the third or fourth option for vintage(debate between them and BGS).
When GAI first came out of the gates, they slabbed alot of newer material, and I am willing to say that over 65% of the vintage they did grade, was stuff that PSA and SGC denied.
I have been wrong about plenty of things in my life, but I highly doubt I am wrong on this one, though. I can clearly see something wrong with the right side of the card, and we have a two time rejection from PSA as further evidence as to something not being right with the card.
^^Please look inside the red circles, and compare^^ >>
If you blow the scan up it looks like the red is printed into the white border on the right side and not into the white border on the left side, making the white border look thinner on the right side like it was trimmed. The card is also tilted a few degrees in the holder.
It might be trimmed but by that scan I don't think anybody can say it's positively trimmed.
<< <i>
^^Please look inside the red circles, and compare^^ >>
OK, I've had it. I'm not in denial of anything. I don't see one freakin difference between the right and left corners. If it was trimmed they sure did a poor job of it considering all 4 corners show wear.
Next you're probably going to tell me my Upper Deck Authenticated Mickey Mantle autographed ball is a forgery.
It's all in the details . . .
The only thing I can positively see with his card is that the green background seems to fade as it touches the top border.
I have looked at this card for hours under every kind of light and magnification , I wish they would say what they see ?
<< <i>Well , it sure looks a whole lot better than mine !
It's all in the details . . .
The only thing I can positively see with his card is that the green background seems to fade as it touches the top border.
I have looked at this card for hours under every kind of light and magnification , I wish they would say what they see ? >>
//////////////////////////////////
The best post I have seen in a long time! +1
He thinks PSA is screwing him .
I don't see how it is PSA's fault though .
As far as the Mantle also being a fake , I don't see what one has to do with the other ?
<< <i>Calm down again. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt then take your Ruth and go home. You posted the scan here and many have told you there stories and there lessons learned. As for your total lack of understanding of trimming and what it can accomplish, it is not just done to alter corners. A cut the size of a hair can make an edge look razor sharp. I have also considered the posibility that you accidently trimmed the card with your knife and scissors, a la 1975 Topps Minis, as I imagine it could have taken you a long time to open this one if it was received in the mail, overpackaged ofcourse. The funny thing is you could have bought a counterfeit on ebay for $500 and suffered less of a loss than you did with this card. Good luck with what ever you decide to do. >>
/////////////////////////////////
Damn Allen.....you must keep notes on all the garbage that is discussed here! I had to scroll back threads and find the one with the 1975 mini's. Once again I have to agree with Allen. It might be best to not bring issues up if you don't have a thick skin to the feedback.
I am not looking at the thin border, due to the red hanging over a bit more on the lower right side. I am looking at how the lower right edge of the card clearly has a dip inward towards the corner. McGwireMuseum noted it as well, and even showed his pics to prove it, too.
Maybe a 3rd time having PSA look at it will change things? Maybe SGC will not see the wavy lower right edge? I don't know..
Plifter, you put your card on display and wanting comments on the situation your are involved in right now. Allen, McGwireMuseum and myself gave opinions that may not be what you wanted to hear. With that being said, do what you want with the card, and think what you want. It's not my $3300 sitting on a card that will not cross over, so I guess I can understand your desperation and frustration on this matter. Nothing personal towards you, but I see an issue with the card, and PSA seen an issue with the card, to not cross it over at the grade your want. I regret you have $3300 tied up in this card, as I would probably be sick and defensive, too.
Oh well, let bigons, be bigons.
Edit: For McGwireMuseum's scans.
I've heard a lot more stories on this board from people that have had their crossovers rejected, then cracked them out and sent them in raw and got them slabbed with the same grade they had listed on their crossover. That's why PSA offers no explanation of the grade. Think about it, why wouldn't they offer a short explanation for high end cards that they charge $100 to grade? A hundred bucks should buy an explanation of their grade. I'm losing confidence in the entire card grading business.
Has anyone on this board ever known anyone that's worked for PSA as a grader and quit? I've never heard anything from former employees about what goes on behind the scenes. They probably make their employees sign non-disclosure contracts upon hiring and none of them are allowed to talk about what goes on for fear of being sued. My company requires all workers to sign such a contract before being officially hired.
<< <i>Calm down again. If you don't want to get your feelings hurt then take your Ruth and go home. You posted the scan here and many have told you there stories and there lessons learned. As for your total lack of understanding of trimming and what it can accomplish, it is not just done to alter corners. A cut the size of a hair can make an edge look razor sharp. I have also considered the posibility that you accidently trimmed the card with your knife and scissors, a la 1975 Topps Minis, as I imagine it could have taken you a long time to open this one if it was received in the mail, overpackaged ofcourse. The funny thing is you could have bought a counterfeit on ebay for $500 and suffered less of a loss than you did with this card. Good luck with what ever you decide to do. >>
This is coming from a guy that sends his customer's package with postage due......
<< <i>I've obviously been thinking about this a lot. It actually makes perfect sense from a business standpoint. I've heard so many people say that their attempts to crossover from other companies have been rejected. In fact, I rarely hear about a successful crossover. If you continually deny crossovers even when the card obviously meets the grade, it makes people think that their cards are trimmed or tampered with just like I did originally. That makes it look like PSA graders are superior to any other company. Therefore, all of the customers flock to PSA and PSA graded cards become more valuable than any other company meaning more profits. Therefore PSA becomes the king of the business by rejecting selected cards. Upon looking at my Ruth card, I'm convinced that nobody can see anything that positively proves that it has been altered.
I've heard a lot more stories on this board from people that have had their crossovers rejected, then cracked them out and sent them in raw and got them slabbed with the same grade they had listed on their crossover. That's why PSA offers no explanation of the grade. Think about it, why wouldn't they offer a short explanation for high end cards that they charge $100 to grade? A hundred bucks should buy an explanation of their grade. I'm losing confidence in the entire card grading business.
Has anyone on this board ever known anyone that's worked for PSA as a grader and quit? I've never heard anything from former employees about what goes on behind the scenes. They probably make their employees sign non-disclosure contracts upon hiring and none of them are allowed to talk about what goes on for fear of being sued. My company requires all workers to sign such a contract before being officially hired. >>
Now, it's a PSA conspiracy against all other grading companies?
Yes, all grading companies have flaws at one time or another. If you had 100% confidence in grading, sadly, I hate to break it to you, it has it's weak and strong points. Like anything in life where money is involved, it can lead to some questionable acts.
On a side note, if your Ruth card was legit, why would PSA not want it in their holder? See, that way, the more 1933 Ruth Goudeys in PSA holders, only help promote their business in an even higher platform, than what your conspiracy theory presents. Your conspiracy does not hold water, plifter.
These are just my opinions.
It might be trimmed but by that scan I don't think anybody can say it's positively trimmed
YUP.
Steve
<< <i>Now, it's a PSA conspiracy against all other grading companies? >>
Actually, many people have said PSA has it in for GAI cards on this board, some of them even in this thread. I'd really like to know how people who have only looked at a scan of the front of the card (none of you have even seen the back!) are saying with 100% certainty that my $3300 treasure has been tampered with.
As for Allen, he's a [censored] that has to get personal with his insults yet again. Insult my card all you want but it's downright rude to start with personal insults. If he ever saw me in person I have strong doubts that he would hurl personal insults at me. My screen name stands for powerlifter. I play with 500 pound barbells in my spare time. I hate to boast about it on a message board but he really rubs me the wrong way. Does this board have an "ignore" feature so that I can block his garbage?
Will you please answer my question, that is in bold type, above? I am curious to hear what you have to say as to why PSA would not want to holder your card. They have everything to lose in the way of PSA name brand promotion, if it was legit. Why would they not want a nice Goudey Ruth in their holder, instead of a GAI slab?? Makes no sense, unless the card has an issue that might make PSA look bad by holdering it.