<< <i>Even with proof of altering from psa or sgc...gai may say it's only their opinion. I do not think gai is in a financial position to be offering refunds but it's worth a shot.
I thought when you first posted this card a while back you had already sent this Ruth card into psa and it did not crossover? was this the first or second time you sent it in? if psa thought it was trimmed it should say trimmed and not MG >>
This is the second time around. The first time I submitted it with a minimum grade of 5. I can deal with it if they find a normal flaw that I'm not seeing. That still leaves me with a valuable good looking card. If it's altered, it's pretty much worthless.
<< <i>Try SGC before freaking out. Minimum grade does not mean trimmed or altered. SGC is much more friendly towards GAI graded cards. I do not necessarily agree with this 'policy' but speaking from many experiences. Whatever you do, leave the card in the GAI holder...you might not be able to get it graded and right now it is a liquid investment. >>
Evidently you have not been keeping up with the news. SGC is now liable to run over the GAI slabbed card with an 18 wheeler after the Mantle issue.
I fell for you, I think we all do, but take a step back and catch your breath. The card looks good to my eyes, and as many others here have suggested you may be wise to crack it out & submit it raw because some claim that PSA does seem to have some sort of bias against GAI cards. However, I will echo the call to find out from PSA what the issue is before you crack because you may mose some $ if in fact the card is altered.
Have hope, it's a very nice card. As someone else has suggested you may also want to look into SGC has they are very respected in the hobby when it comes to pre-war issues.
Hint. They are not crossing over GAI cards. That card is a fantastic 4. Minimum grade means thank you for your money and we did nothing. I have much experience with this. Mickey71
I agree with the others who suggested contacting Joe to find out what happened and why it was rejected twice. There has to be something that PSA didn't like about the card.
You're probably way past the time when you could complain to your seller, and most sellers would rely on the TPG defense anyway.
If PSA tells you it was trimmed or altered, you have to leave it in the holder to have any chance at all of recovery against GAI. From their website -
<<<Global guarantees the grade and authenticity of all items that remain in a Global tamper evident holder. Any damage of a Global tamper evident holder while not in the possession of Global invalidates the Global guarantee. >>>>
So if you crack it and it's fake, trimmed, recolored etc then you have no recourse against anybody. Not a good idea.
I would not cry yet. I mean why buy a GAI card if you wanted to cross it. Anyways if it does not cross you still have a nice card in a good slab, even though it is not a big 3 slab. You are not out $3,300 because you still have the card. Some think the card might be altered, but you don't know for sure. I would not attempt sending the card to PSA to have slabbed authentic, you would be better off keeping it in the GAI holder. I think that card will bring some solid money on ebay and could really cut your loss.
You're not out $3300....and let me tell you why. About eight months ago I bought a GAI 9 Nolan Ryan Rookie for $2250 and I sent it into PSA to be crossed over. When it popped (two day service) I noticed an "MG" as the grade. I called PSA and asked them to please point out the area that made it "miss the grade". When I got the card back (still in the GAI slab) they had put a sticky note on the card and said that it had appeared to be trimmed on the right side of the card. I put it back on ebay and it took about 3 months to move the card. I had to be patient but eventually there was a buyer that wanted that card in the GAI holder. You can put it back on ebay and you'll get around 3K for it....no worries.
<< <i>You're not out $3300....and let me tell you why. About eight months ago I bought a GAI 9 Nolan Ryan Rookie for $2250 and I sent it into PSA to be crossed over. When it popped (two day service) I noticed an "MG" as the grade. I called PSA and asked them to please point out the area that made it "miss the grade". When I got the card back (still in the GAI slab) they had put a sticky note on the card and said that it had appeared to be trimmed on the right side of the card. I put it back on ebay and it took about 3 months to move the card. I had to be patient but eventually there was a buyer that wanted that card in the GAI holder. You can put it back on ebay and you'll get around 3K for it....no worries. >>
I'm not sure I understand.
Did you agree the card was trimmed? Or do you believe PSA made a mistake?
I measured the card before I sent it in to PSA and I thought it was good. I, like many, thought I would take the chance and see if it would get a PSA 9 grade and then resale it for around 5K. Well, when it didn't make the grade at PSA I decited it was time to cut my loses and just sale it on the bay. I still, to this day, don't think the card was trimmed but I'm not working at PSA and making the big money to make those decisions. Maybe the new owner will have the balls to crack it out and submit it raw. It may end up in a PSA slab?
I honestly do not believe the card has been altered even if the PSA grader has a different OPINION. Nobody has examined that card as much as I have. I've looked at it in low light, bright light, under a 10x magnifying glass. I've held it at every conceivable angle. I have other PSA 4's that can't come close to the condition of the Ruth. I don't know how they work at PSA, but I'm guessing it takes a lot more effort for the grader to crack one out of a slab to cross it over. Maybe the graders are a bit lazy and simply don't want to do the extra work so they just make up a reason to reject it. It's starting to look that way from the stories I've heard about low success rates of cross overs.
I got in touch with Joe and he was going to try to pull it before it goes in the mail. If not, he said to mail it back with his name on it and he would look at it.
Well - I guess I was expecting more from GAI than that - very sad - the implication here is that GAI would "knowingly" holder bad cards to certain people or perhaps for the right price? Sure hope not.
Isn't it true that many GAI cards fail PSA and are cracked and then get in a PSA holder. Like many said, kiss of death. Just most people are afraid to gamble on cracking a card they paid $3K+ to take the chance to get it in a big 3 holder.
I just had a gai 9.5 57' topps common come back trimmed from psa. once i took the card out of the holder I could see the right edge looked funny but I sent it in any way.
as a gai 9.5 I paid $135 for it
as a psa 9 it would have sold for $250
sold it raw and with the psa trimmed sticker on it for $3.57
"Should PSA adopt a policy that when they discover a bad card, the card is confiscated?"
This could, of course, only be implemented as part of the initial submission agreement.
The policy would cost PSA money, but it would likely get rid of some of the fake/altered stuff that is being sold to folks who will not know they were scammed until they or their heirs go to sell it.
Under the current scheme, there is no risk for a fraudster to submit a known "problem card" to PSA. If it slips by, he scores. If it is caught, the card is simply returned to the owner, and the marketplace remains at risk.
While I would not resell a "caught card," I fully understand the rationalization that allows others to do so. Under the current system, there is certainly no prohibition against it.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
Allen is right on the money. If you crack it out of the GAI holder....you have a lot better chance of it getting a grade. I've cracked three Alex Rodriquez rookies out of GAI 9 holders and two of them came back PSA 9's and one came back an 8. If you have deep enough pockets to crack a big $ card....then thats the way to go!
Did you ask Joe what exactly MG means? I mean did you ask him does it mean it simply did not meet the min requirements? That if it was altered it would have said that? Afterall that is really your worry.
PSA has had 2 chances to holder this card, IMO it is now SGC's turn.
Can someone reference more instances where GAI has mislabled or missed grading cards ?
Who are considered the "big 3" in grading companys ?
I know PSA is considered the top re-sale grader. However, I have seen some differences in similar PSa graded cards. Is there an inconsistancy ?
I understand that several former PSA graders now work at GAI. could it be that those opinions carried over and new graders at PSA are a little more strict. Or can it be the grading hobby is just finding its legs ?
Would it be a good idea to know what date / year the grades were made ?
I apologize for all the questions - this forum is where I am learning about grading.
<< <i> While I would not resell a "caught card," I fully understand the rationalization that allows others to do so. Under the current system, there is certainly no prohibition against it. >>
/////////////////////////////////
Just because PSA deems the card "trimmed" does not mean that it is. This has been discussed thousands of times. Card grading isn't, and never will be, an exact science. There are trimmed cards (yes, more in GAI holders) in holders from every company. Good luck trying to reinvent the wheel.
1. resell the card in it's original holder and recoup your "loss" 2. call them on the grade guarantee 3. be happy with what you got and learn to NEVEr try to cross another companies holder. gotta gamble and do the crackout game
There have been many cards that board members have pulled from wax that were labeled trimmed several times before being holdered. I would like for the board to pool some money for fees and have a member with a border line card that is commonly graded and submit it a few dozen times. Say like a Jordan or Gretzky RC that is one of those that when posted board members guess the grade from 5-7 with some arguing a chance at an 8 on a good day. Submit the card 25 times and see what it grades each time. Better yet a high grade vintage card that was deemed trimmed atleast once before being holdered. I seriously doubt any card will get the same grade 25 times.
"With all due respect the same thing could be said for anyone of us too."
//////////////////////////////////////
Yup.
Numerical grades are NOT easy to assign consistently.
Counterfeit and altered items are considerably easier for experienced folks to catch, though. PSA's graders are supposed to be VERY skilled at that task.
Folks Who Bite Get Bitten. Folks Who Don't Bite Get Eaten.
I think i could detect a counterfeit card (in the series I know) alterations, well unless it is obvious I can't say for sure and I have been in this hobby for decades.
That, and the protection the slab affords is mainly why I use PSA/SGC.
I think that PSA probably is more conservative with alterations than other companies. I had a T-206 common returned to me as "recolored" when in reality it just had an ink stain. I submitted it for grading thinking it would come back slabbed with a "MK" qualifier. I can account for 40-45 years of the cards history as it was given to me by an uncle who had it for a long time. He wasn't a card collector but had a few cards he found in his attic. I know he didn't care enough about cards to have wasted his time recoloring it. He passed it on to me when I was about 10 years old. I'm the fool that got the ink stain on it. I used to draw pictures of my cards when I was a kid. My dad was in the book publishing business for a large company and he used to bring home samples of thick paper that he had to choose from which to use for the books and pamphlets being published. Anyway, I would trace around the edge of my cards to make them the right size and that's how the ink mark got on the card. So, I think that just because PSA says it is altered, it doesn't always make it a fact.
Now I've calmed down. Yesterday was a stressful day for me at work then I came home and had the authenticity of my most prized material possession drawn into question. I realize that I still have a valuable and beautiful piece of baseball history regardless of what slab it's in. I would prefer it to be in a PSA slab not just to increase the value, but also to match the other cards in my main display case which are all PSA. It didn't look right having 17 PSA slabs and then one GAI slab in the middle. I might just have to live with it in it's GAI slab. And I know a lot of people on this board trash talk GAI, I think they are still respected overall in the hobby. I would consider them one of the main 4 grading companies. When I was at the National in Cleveland last year I saw a lot of good stuff in GAI holders so there are obviously a lot of people that trust them with their vintage high end cards.
To each their own, but I still say the card has had some trimming/shaving on that right side, and no, the card was not left in that holder just based on PSA being "lazy". It's not any trouble to pop those GAI holders and slab in a PSA holder within 5 minutes or less, so let's not kid ourselves, nor make excuses.
If anyone can explain why that right side has issues that I have addressed in previous posts, I would love to hear how they can refute what is clearly there. That right edge is wavy and a bit small towards the bottom. PSA clearly has seen a red flag, too, and if nothing else, I commend PSA for doing the right thing.
I truly feel bad for plifter, but facts are facts, and if PSA fails to holder the card 2 different times, there is a reason for it. If it was me, I would try to get a refund from the guy I bought it from, or contact GAI and hold their feet to the fire.
I remain in my belief that if a vintage card is not in a PSA or SGC holder, there has to be a reason why.
Are you talking about how the bottom right border is thinner/narrower then the left?
If so the red banner extends over.
With that said I agree with just about everything else you have said, However I am not about to say that the card has been trimmed simply by it not meeting minimum grade.
Its the upper right that catches my eye with a possible trim slip. If you look about even with the spot where the insert moves away from the card there is a spot that looks finny. Could be simple edge damage.
I think the papaer loss you described in your other post about the condition could be killing it too if that spot is just edge damage.
<< <i>A simple post-it stuck on the slab would alleviate so much stress on PSA members.
The post-it could tell the submitter why the card will not cross.
Steve >>
That is such an excellent idea. I've often wondered why they don't do this with all high end cards. It would only take about 10 seconds of the grader's time. I still just don't see the evidence of trimming that some other people see. I would think that if someone were going to take the time to skillfully trim a valuable card, they would have left it with 4 perfectly sharp corners. It's obvious that my card does have some corner wear. I've also measured the card myself and it looks to be a perfect 2 3/8" X 2 7/8" as listed in the SCD Standard Catalog. Of course measuring a card in a slab is not an exact science and not all of the cards are cut perfectly from the factory.
Think about this is someone were going to truly try to fool someone with that card wouldn't they leave the corners banged up? To me a card like that with 5 sharp corners would be an instant and obvious trim job.
The number one reason why I would NEVER fully trust a GAI card is the pre-grade service. Basically you send the card to them they then charge you half the grading fee and tell you what the card will grade then you choose to grade it or not. To me this gives them too much of an incentive to grade all cards.
<< <i>Are you talking about how the bottom right border is thinner/narrower then the left?
If so the red banner extends over.
With that said I agree with just about everything else you have said, However I am not about to say that the card has been trimmed simply by it not meeting minimum grade.
Steve >>
No, I am not talking about the border alone, I am talking about how the edge is cut. Look how it has a wave to it, mainly at the bottom right. Sure, the border is off, but that can be possible on cards that are not trimmed. That right edge is not straight, and how can the lower corner with some considerable wear, come to an unusually sharp point, instead of slight rounding at the very tip? Look at the SGC 4 I posted a scan of, and notice how a card with slight rounding of a corner should normally look, unless the edge has been shaved/beveled/trimmed.
<< <i>No, I am not talking about the border alone, I am talking about how the edge is cut. Look how it has a wave to it, mainly at the bottom right. Sure, the border is off, but that can be possible on cards that are not trimmed. That right edge is not straight, and how can the lower corner with some considerable wear, come to an unusually sharp point, instead of slight rounding at the very tip? Look at the SGC 4 I posted a scan of, and notice how a card with slight rounding of a corner should normally look, unless the edge has been shaved/beveled/trimmed. >>
I agree, its very apparent in the picture I showed, and I even zoomed it in to where anybody can see it from the scan. Its at least 1 page back.
I agree with Allen - If you wanted a PSA graded Ruth then you should have purchased a PSA graded Ruth. I am suspect of any high profile card NOT in a PSA slab. The reason for this is that all dealers and most knowlegable collectors know that PSA slabs carry the highest premium and are easily sold. When I see a high profile card in a non PSA slab, my first thought is "why didn't PSA slab this?"
"I remain in my belief that if a vintage card is not in a PSA or SGC holder, there has to be a reason why." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<< <i>I don't think anyone here could say just by looking at pics if the card has been trimmed , I mean not unless it were hacked to death .
I can't help feeling pretty bad reading this thread , I would want to know why and I am surprised they do not tell you the why? >>
Yes, TNT, I agree, and feel bad for plifter. The guy just wanted a nice card to enjoy for his collection, not to be all upset by it. At the very least, it would be nice for plifter to be informed by PSA as to what they are seeing, that prevents them from wanting to holder the card.
For those of you looking at the right edge and saying it looks wavy, what you are seeing is an illusion because in this picture the card has slid all the way over to the black plastic inside the holder. The black plastic is wavy. It slides around very slightly in the holder. When I get the card back, I will do another scan with the card slid all the way to the left so that you can get a clear view of the right edge. You will not find any waves on that edge. Like I said, I've spent more time examining this card than anyone else. I'm not a rookie to card collecting as I started collecting 26 years ago as a kid. Granted, I didn't do much collecting in the 90's due to college, job searching, drinking beer, and getting a lot of something that rhymes with rookie. I've been able to spot fake Jordan rookies, bad trim jobs and fair trim jobs. If anyone trimmed this Babe, they had the world's sharpest x-acto knife and had the world's steadiest hand and took off an amount of less than 5 nanometers.
I honestly think they just have it in for cards in their rival competitor's holder. I also spoke to PSA customer service and was told that if a crossover showed signs of tampering, they still would not inform you. You get it sent back with NO EXPLANATION WHATSOEVER. That sure was $90.00 well spent! Joe was not successful in stopping it from being mailed. I'm not sure if he really tried.
I swear I'm going to take a card that is currently in a PSA holder, sent it to GAI as a crossover or crack it out and send it raw. Then send it back to PSA when I get it in a GAI holder and send it back as a crossover and set the minimum grade as 1 grade lower than the original PSA grade. I'll bet it doesn't cross back into a PSA holder even at a lower grade than PSA originally graded it.
Has anyone ever done something like that? That would make an interesting Dateline investigation just like the Fox News JSA Sal Bando story.
<< <i>If anyone trimmed this Babe, they had the world's sharpest x-acto knife and had the world's steadiest hand and took off an amount of less than 5 nanometers. >>
They have laser cuters and I think there is a really good one that uses a super thin wire. They are for very fine trimming and cutting. Some known sellers have been able to trim the seemingly most impossible cards like 1994 SP Arod, 93 SP Jeters, 01 Bowman Chrome Pujols, etc. They do it to such a fraction the card still meets the minimum card size. Also all those nice cards you saw in GAI holders, like many others have said, were in there for a reason.
PSA will tell you if a card has been rejected due to trimming in a crossover. I tried to get a 1994 Alex Rodriguez Gold Signature BGS 8.5 crossed over with a 9 minimum grade, and it was rejected due to evidence of trimming.
I am 99% sure your GAI Ruth wasn't rejected because of trimming - or any alteration for that matter. Maybe PSA is biased towards GAI, but that card looks fine to me.
Comments
<< <i>Even with proof of altering from psa or sgc...gai may say it's only their opinion. I do not think gai is in a financial position to be offering refunds but it's worth a shot.
I thought when you first posted this card a while back you had already sent this Ruth card into psa and it did not crossover? was this the first or second time you sent it in? if psa thought it was trimmed it should say trimmed and not MG >>
This is the second time around. The first time I submitted it with a minimum grade of 5. I can deal with it if they find a normal flaw that I'm not seeing. That still leaves me with a valuable good looking card. If it's altered, it's pretty much worthless.
<< <i>Try SGC before freaking out. Minimum grade does not mean trimmed or altered. SGC is much more friendly towards GAI graded cards. I do not necessarily agree with this 'policy' but speaking from many experiences. Whatever you do, leave the card in the GAI holder...you might not be able to get it graded and right now it is a liquid investment. >>
Evidently you have not been keeping up with the news. SGC is now liable to run over the GAI slabbed card with an 18 wheeler after the Mantle issue.
<< <i>......If it's altered, it's pretty much worthless. >>
Not true. While you obviously wont get your $3,300 back, a 1933 Goudey Ruth #181 that is slabbed by PSA as authentic should still sell for about $750.
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Have hope, it's a very nice card. As someone else has suggested you may also want to look into SGC has they are very respected in the hobby when it comes to pre-war issues.
Mickey71
You're probably way past the time when you could complain to your seller, and most sellers would rely on the TPG defense anyway.
If PSA tells you it was trimmed or altered, you have to leave it in the holder to have any chance at all of recovery against GAI. From their website -
<<<Global guarantees the grade and authenticity of all items that remain in a Global tamper evident
holder. Any damage of a Global tamper evident holder while not in the possession of Global
invalidates the Global guarantee. >>>>
So if you crack it and it's fake, trimmed, recolored etc then you have no recourse against anybody. Not a good idea.
<< <i>You're not out $3300....and let me tell you why. About eight months ago I bought a GAI 9 Nolan Ryan Rookie for $2250 and I sent it into PSA to be crossed over. When it popped (two day service) I noticed an "MG" as the grade. I called PSA and asked them to please point out the area that made it "miss the grade". When I got the card back (still in the GAI slab) they had put a sticky note on the card and said that it had appeared to be trimmed on the right side of the card. I put it back on ebay and it took about 3 months to move the card. I had to be patient but eventually there was a buyer that wanted that card in the GAI holder. You can put it back on ebay and you'll get around 3K for it....no worries. >>
I'm not sure I understand.
Did you agree the card was trimmed? Or do you believe PSA made a mistake?
mike
I got in touch with Joe and he was going to try to pull it before it goes in the mail. If not, he said to mail it back with his name on it and he would look at it.
simply throw them back on EBAY and find the next fish.
It is a variety of the hot-potato game.
There is nothing wrong with buying GAI stuff, if you can steal it; and,
want to gamble.
A good way not to "get cheated" is:
Understand that there is usually a reason that a card is not in a PSA holder
when you see it for sale.
mike
as a gai 9.5 I paid $135 for it
as a psa 9 it would have sold for $250
sold it raw and with the psa trimmed sticker on it for $3.57
///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
A more interesting academic issue may be:
"Should PSA adopt a policy that when they discover a bad card,
the card is confiscated?"
This could, of course, only be implemented as part of the initial
submission agreement.
The policy would cost PSA money, but it would likely get rid of
some of the fake/altered stuff that is being sold to folks who
will not know they were scammed until they or their heirs go
to sell it.
Under the current scheme, there is no risk for a fraudster to
submit a known "problem card" to PSA. If it slips by, he scores.
If it is caught, the card is simply returned to the owner, and the
marketplace remains at risk.
While I would not resell a "caught card," I fully understand the
rationalization that allows others to do so. Under the current system,
there is certainly no prohibition against it.
meet the min requirements? That if it was altered it would have said that? Afterall that is really your worry.
PSA has had 2 chances to holder this card, IMO it is now SGC's turn.
Steve
<< <i>A more interesting academic issue may be:
"Should PSA adopt a policy that when they discover a bad card,
the card is confiscated?" >>
////////////////////////////////
Yeah....this will happen right away! LOL
Who are considered the "big 3" in grading companys ?
I know PSA is considered the top re-sale grader. However, I have seen some differences in similar PSa graded cards. Is there an inconsistancy ?
I understand that several former PSA graders now work at GAI. could it be that those opinions carried over and new graders at PSA are a little more strict. Or can it be the grading hobby is just finding its legs ?
Would it be a good idea to know what date / year the grades were made ?
I apologize for all the questions - this forum is where I am learning about grading.
cheers
<< <i> While I would not resell a "caught card," I fully understand the
rationalization that allows others to do so. Under the current system,
there is certainly no prohibition against it. >>
/////////////////////////////////
Just because PSA deems the card "trimmed" does not mean that it is. This has been discussed thousands of times. Card grading isn't, and never will be, an exact science. There are trimmed cards (yes, more in GAI holders) in holders from every company. Good luck trying to reinvent the wheel.
.............................................
Yup.
The market-makers want to have it both ways.
When the TPG-opinion adds value, that opinion is sacred.
When the TPG-opinion reduces value, the TPG is "mistaken."
That is unlikely to change.
2. call them on the grade guarantee
3. be happy with what you got and learn to NEVEr try to cross another companies holder. gotta gamble and do the crackout game
There have been many cards that board members have pulled from wax that were labeled trimmed several times before being holdered. I would like for the board to pool some money for fees and have a member with a border line card that is commonly graded and submit it a few dozen times. Say like a Jordan or Gretzky RC that is one of those that when posted board members guess the grade from 5-7 with some arguing a chance at an 8 on a good day. Submit the card 25 times and see what it grades each time. Better yet a high grade vintage card that was deemed trimmed atleast once before being holdered. I seriously doubt any card will get the same grade 25 times.
////////////////////////////////////
I suspect and fear that is absolutely true.
Steve
//////////////////////////////////////
Yup.
Numerical grades are NOT easy to assign consistently.
Counterfeit and altered items are considerably easier
for experienced folks to catch, though. PSA's graders
are supposed to be VERY skilled at that task.
I can't say for sure and I have been in this hobby for decades.
That, and the protection the slab affords is mainly why I use PSA/SGC.
Value added and liquidity go w/o saying.
Steve
Now I've calmed down. Yesterday was a stressful day for me at work then I came home and had the authenticity of my most prized material possession drawn into question. I realize that I still have a valuable and beautiful piece of baseball history regardless of what slab it's in. I would prefer it to be in a PSA slab not just to increase the value, but also to match the other cards in my main display case which are all PSA. It didn't look right having 17 PSA slabs and then one GAI slab in the middle. I might just have to live with it in it's GAI slab. And I know a lot of people on this board trash talk GAI, I think they are still respected overall in the hobby. I would consider them one of the main 4 grading companies. When I was at the National in Cleveland last year I saw a lot of good stuff in GAI holders so there are obviously a lot of people that trust them with their vintage high end cards.
If anyone can explain why that right side has issues that I have addressed in previous posts, I would love to hear how they can refute what is clearly there. That right edge is wavy and a bit small towards the bottom. PSA clearly has seen a red flag, too, and if nothing else, I commend PSA for doing the right thing.
I truly feel bad for plifter, but facts are facts, and if PSA fails to holder the card 2 different times, there is a reason for it. If it was me, I would try to get a refund from the guy I bought it from, or contact GAI and hold their feet to the fire.
I remain in my belief that if a vintage card is not in a PSA or SGC holder, there has to be a reason why.
If so the red banner extends over.
With that said I agree with just about everything else you have said, However I am not
about to say that the card has been trimmed simply by it not meeting minimum grade.
Steve
I think the papaer loss you described in your other post about the condition could be killing it too if that spot is just edge damage.
The post-it could tell the submitter why the card will not cross.
Steve
<< <i>A simple post-it stuck on the slab would alleviate so much stress on PSA members.
The post-it could tell the submitter why the card will not cross.
Steve >>
That is such an excellent idea. I've often wondered why they don't do this with all high end cards. It would only take about 10 seconds of the grader's time. I still just don't see the evidence of trimming that some other people see. I would think that if someone were going to take the time to skillfully trim a valuable card, they would have left it with 4 perfectly sharp corners. It's obvious that my card does have some corner wear. I've also measured the card myself and it looks to be a perfect 2 3/8" X 2 7/8" as listed in the SCD Standard Catalog. Of course measuring a card in a slab is not an exact science and not all of the cards are cut perfectly from the factory.
The number one reason why I would NEVER fully trust a GAI card is the pre-grade service. Basically you send the card to them they then charge you half the grading fee and tell you what the card will grade then you choose to grade it or not. To me this gives them too much of an incentive to grade all cards.
<< <i>Are you talking about how the bottom right border is thinner/narrower then the left?
If so the red banner extends over.
With that said I agree with just about everything else you have said, However I am not
about to say that the card has been trimmed simply by it not meeting minimum grade.
Steve >>
No, I am not talking about the border alone, I am talking about how the edge is cut. Look how it has a wave to it, mainly at the bottom right. Sure, the border is off, but that can be possible on cards that are not trimmed. That right edge is not straight, and how can the lower corner with some considerable wear, come to an unusually sharp point, instead of slight rounding at the very tip? Look at the SGC 4 I posted a scan of, and notice how a card with slight rounding of a corner should normally look, unless the edge has been shaved/beveled/trimmed.
<< <i>No, I am not talking about the border alone, I am talking about how the edge is cut. Look how it has a wave to it, mainly at the bottom right. Sure, the border is off, but that can be possible on cards that are not trimmed. That right edge is not straight, and how can the lower corner with some considerable wear, come to an unusually sharp point, instead of slight rounding at the very tip? Look at the SGC 4 I posted a scan of, and notice how a card with slight rounding of a corner should normally look, unless the edge has been shaved/beveled/trimmed. >>
I agree, its very apparent in the picture I showed, and I even zoomed it in to where anybody can see it from the scan. Its at least 1 page back.
The reason for this is that all dealers and most knowlegable collectors know that PSA slabs carry the highest premium and are easily sold. When I see a high profile card in a non PSA slab, my first thought is "why didn't PSA slab this?"
They call me "Pack the Ripper"
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Unfortunately , I agree .
If I'm selling = PSA (hands down more demand and dollars)
I can't help feeling pretty bad reading this thread , I would want to know why and I am surprised they do not tell you the why ?
<< <i>I don't think anyone here could say just by looking at pics if the card has been trimmed , I mean not unless it were hacked to death .
I can't help feeling pretty bad reading this thread , I would want to know why and I am surprised they do not tell you the why? >>
Yes, TNT, I agree, and feel bad for plifter. The guy just wanted a nice card to enjoy for his collection, not to be all upset by it. At the very least, it would be nice for plifter to be informed by PSA as to what they are seeing, that prevents them from wanting to holder the card.
I do feel bad for the OP too, I would hate to spend that much on a card to have it not be what I expected.
I honestly think they just have it in for cards in their rival competitor's holder. I also spoke to PSA customer service and was told that if a crossover showed signs of tampering, they still would not inform you. You get it sent back with NO EXPLANATION WHATSOEVER. That sure was $90.00 well spent! Joe was not successful in stopping it from being mailed. I'm not sure if he really tried.
I swear I'm going to take a card that is currently in a PSA holder, sent it to GAI as a crossover or crack it out and send it raw. Then send it back to PSA when I get it in a GAI holder and send it back as a crossover and set the minimum grade as 1 grade lower than the original PSA grade. I'll bet it doesn't cross back into a PSA holder even at a lower grade than PSA originally graded it.
Has anyone ever done something like that? That would make an interesting Dateline investigation just like the Fox News JSA Sal Bando story.
<< <i>If anyone trimmed this Babe, they had the world's sharpest x-acto knife and had the world's steadiest hand and took off an amount of less than 5 nanometers. >>
They have laser cuters and I think there is a really good one that uses a super thin wire. They are for very fine trimming and cutting. Some known sellers have been able to trim the seemingly most impossible cards like 1994 SP Arod, 93 SP Jeters, 01 Bowman Chrome Pujols, etc. They do it to such a fraction the card still meets the minimum card size. Also all those nice cards you saw in GAI holders, like many others have said, were in there for a reason.
Joe couldn't speak with the grader either? How many GAI Ruths have they looked at this past week?
Steve
<< <i>Joe was not successful in stopping it from being mailed. I'm not sure if he really tried.
Joe couldn't speak with the grader either? How many GAI Ruths have they looked at this past week?
Steve >>
He responded to my first e-mail. Since then I have sent two follow ups requesting an update. I haven't received a reply.
I am 99% sure your GAI Ruth wasn't rejected because of trimming - or any alteration for that matter. Maybe PSA is biased towards GAI, but that card looks fine to me.